"PvEers" get 7 times more Undaunted chests than "PvPers" get of Undaunted vendors.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · June 2016

holosoul wrote: »

@danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO
Since you asked so nicely I thought I would come respond.
I don't play magicka templar, so it's hard for me to comment about the dynamic of traits with magicka templar. I would like to know though, compared to an ideal setup of divines/infused compared to all slots of impen on the same items, are you fully aware of how much those traits contribute to the stats? I understand that magicka gets multiplied by CP and passives, but at the same time I also overstated the magicka gain from enchantments and divines.

For the sake of easy math, let's say that every small item gets 400 of a main stat, and every big item gets 900 (both are more than reality) before infused.

400 * 0.2 (infused) = 80 magicka
900 * 0.2 (infused) = 180 magicka
180 * 3 (large) = 540 magicka
80 * 4 (small) = 320 magicka
total: 860 max magicka from 7 infused
Then you add in passives, CP, and so forth, and I'm pretty sure this actually becomes around 1500 max magicka (being generous here)
Divines is a more complex case, but gets a similar result for every stat except crit chance (which is very complex in PVP, forgive me for not covering crit chance in detail here)
For example, if you have the warrior or the apprentice and you add divines to an item it adds something like 10 - 20 weapon damage.

So if you had for example, 40k max magicka instead of 42k max magicka, would your tooltip on BoL even be noticeably smaller? I found that infused and divines did not affect my tooltips in any meaningful way, and could only be interesting to an min/max PVE player trying to get an extra few % DPS, but having almost 0 impact on the high burst play styles of cyrodiil.

At the same time, every piece of gold impen gives 250 crit resistance.
250 * 7 = 1,750 crit resistance, which comes out roughly to a 25% crit bonus modifier reduction.
The way it works is if your opponent has say 100 cp in +crit on a gankblade build, their crit damage becomes 1.5x instead of 1.75x; and a player with 0 CP in +crit who has 1.5x crit damage would now have 1.25x crit damage and so forth. Simply subtract the crit resistance from their crit bonus multiplier (minimum 1x, can't do less damage than non crit)

I personally feel that no matter what your playstyle is, taking manageable burst damage will benefit you a lot. Simultaneously I find the gains from divines and infused to be focused toward the PVE side of the game, and provide marginal or almost no meaningful benefit in a PVP environment. Some of the other traits provide certain builds with exceptional perks, such as decisive, well-fitted, nirnhoned, sturdy, and reinforced (for completely different reasons)

Let's suppose for example, that you have a doppelganger.
Version A of you wears whatever maxes out your HPS/DPS the most (divines/infused perfect theoretical combo/items)
Version B of you wears that same set, but with all impenetrable
A and B attack each other
Who does more DPS in reality?
Version B will, because their traits reduced the DPS of version A far more significantly than version A increased them.
Who heals through damage more effectively?
again version B with the exact same playstyle will outperform version A, because they will take far less damage to begin with.

You can be the best player in the world, yet you would still only shine that much more reducing crits from 17k to 10k, especially if 8 - 10k crits don't even put you in execute range and entire combos no longer kill you, where before they would over-kill you.

So I suppose I challenge you to demonstrate a noticeable difference between having infused/divines and having no traits on your items whatsoever.
Then compare that to reaching 3k+ crit resistance or total immunity with transmutation

I appreciate your reply. I'm not in front of it so I'll have to answer off of memory.

Currently I'm at about 40,215 magic and 3088 spell power when buffed and have, I think 439 CP. Each time I add 1 CP to either elemental expert or thaumatage I get 19 to 21 more magicka. Let's just call it 20. Every time I do this my tool tip values on Breath of Life, Radiant Oppression and Dark Flare rise to varying degrees. BoL rises 6 points each time, not sure off hand about the other two. Yes, it's barely noticeable 1 at a time but 6 points here and there add up quickly. Last night BoL was at 11,333 which was a memorably odd looking number.

If I were to go up to 42K or 44K which I could do if I felt like sacrificing many things to the Mage Guild gods, yes, it would be a very noticeable difference. Off hand I think that would be an additional 1200 for BoL, but admittedly I could be wrong off of memory.

To be fair let's just say that I can do 5500 without crit on BoL in Cyrodill no problem. My crit is 48.1%, call it 50% for this discussion. So I guess that's, what 8250 for a crit heal? I'm at 24000 health in PVP give or take so it would take 3 to 6 button presses to go from near death to full. I've never stopwatched it but I can do that in less than a second easily. It's an instant cast afterall. I have a lot of CP into cost reduction so my BoL costs like 2800 give or take. With no crits, I'm still left with 15 to 20k magicka to deal damage.

Add in Undeath, which lowers damage by I think 33% when I'm low on health, and mist form which I have used to survive insane amounts of damage (soul assaults and multiple RDs many times) with its 75% reduction and I'm quite survivable. I will admit to not being your equal at ESO math so to say exactly which one is better would be silly on my part.

Here is what I know for sure though. Many, many times I've been the last person alive in a keep. Other times I've died first because I wasn't paying close attention and then - pewpewpew dead. It happens. I do, however believe that since moving to this build my deaths have only gone up marginally, while my kill count has grown enormously.

Ghost-Shot · June 2016

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

holosoul wrote: »

@danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO
Since you asked so nicely I thought I would come respond.
I don't play magicka templar, so it's hard for me to comment about the dynamic of traits with magicka templar. I would like to know though, compared to an ideal setup of divines/infused compared to all slots of impen on the same items, are you fully aware of how much those traits contribute to the stats? I understand that magicka gets multiplied by CP and passives, but at the same time I also overstated the magicka gain from enchantments and divines.

For the sake of easy math, let's say that every small item gets 400 of a main stat, and every big item gets 900 (both are more than reality) before infused.

400 * 0.2 (infused) = 80 magicka
900 * 0.2 (infused) = 180 magicka
180 * 3 (large) = 540 magicka
80 * 4 (small) = 320 magicka
total: 860 max magicka from 7 infused
Then you add in passives, CP, and so forth, and I'm pretty sure this actually becomes around 1500 max magicka (being generous here)
Divines is a more complex case, but gets a similar result for every stat except crit chance (which is very complex in PVP, forgive me for not covering crit chance in detail here)
For example, if you have the warrior or the apprentice and you add divines to an item it adds something like 10 - 20 weapon damage.

So if you had for example, 40k max magicka instead of 42k max magicka, would your tooltip on BoL even be noticeably smaller? I found that infused and divines did not affect my tooltips in any meaningful way, and could only be interesting to an min/max PVE player trying to get an extra few % DPS, but having almost 0 impact on the high burst play styles of cyrodiil.

At the same time, every piece of gold impen gives 250 crit resistance.
250 * 7 = 1,750 crit resistance, which comes out roughly to a 25% crit bonus modifier reduction.
The way it works is if your opponent has say 100 cp in +crit on a gankblade build, their crit damage becomes 1.5x instead of 1.75x; and a player with 0 CP in +crit who has 1.5x crit damage would now have 1.25x crit damage and so forth. Simply subtract the crit resistance from their crit bonus multiplier (minimum 1x, can't do less damage than non crit)

I personally feel that no matter what your playstyle is, taking manageable burst damage will benefit you a lot. Simultaneously I find the gains from divines and infused to be focused toward the PVE side of the game, and provide marginal or almost no meaningful benefit in a PVP environment. Some of the other traits provide certain builds with exceptional perks, such as decisive, well-fitted, nirnhoned, sturdy, and reinforced (for completely different reasons)

Let's suppose for example, that you have a doppelganger.
Version A of you wears whatever maxes out your HPS/DPS the most (divines/infused perfect theoretical combo/items)
Version B of you wears that same set, but with all impenetrable
A and B attack each other
Who does more DPS in reality?
Version B will, because their traits reduced the DPS of version A far more significantly than version A increased them.
Who heals through damage more effectively?
again version B with the exact same playstyle will outperform version A, because they will take far less damage to begin with.

You can be the best player in the world, yet you would still only shine that much more reducing crits from 17k to 10k, especially if 8 - 10k crits don't even put you in execute range and entire combos no longer kill you, where before they would over-kill you.

So I suppose I challenge you to demonstrate a noticeable difference between having infused/divines and having no traits on your items whatsoever.
Then compare that to reaching 3k+ crit resistance or total immunity with transmutation

I appreciate your reply. I'm not in front of it so I'll have to answer off of memory.

Currently I'm at about 40,215 magic and 3088 spell power when buffed and have, I think 439 CP. Each time I add 1 CP to either elemental expert or thaumatage I get 19 to 21 more magicka. Let's just call it 20. Every time I do this my tool tip values on Breath of Life, Radiant Oppression and Dark Flare rise to varying degrees. BoL rises 6 points each time, not sure off hand about the other two. Yes, it's barely noticeable 1 at a time but 6 points here and there add up quickly. Last night BoL was at 11,333 which was a memorably odd looking number.

If I were to go up to 42K or 44K which I could do if I felt like sacrificing many things to the Mage Guild gods, yes, it would be a very noticeable difference. Off hand I think that would be an additional 1200 for BoL, but admittedly I could be wrong off of memory.

To be fair let's just say that I can do 5500 without crit on BoL in Cyrodill no problem. My crit is 48.1%, call it 50% for this discussion. So I guess that's, what 8250 for a crit heal? I'm at 24000 health in PVP give or take so it would take 3 to 6 button presses to go from near death to full. I've never stopwatched it but I can do that in less than a second easily. It's an instant cast afterall. I have a lot of CP into cost reduction so my BoL costs like 2800 give or take. With no crits, I'm still left with 15 to 20k magicka to deal damage.

Add in Undeath, which lowers damage by I think 33% when I'm low on health, and mist form which I have used to survive insane amounts of damage (soul assaults and multiple RDs many times) with its 75% reduction and I'm quite survivable. I will admit to not being your equal at ESO math so to say exactly which one is better would be silly on my part.

Here is what I know for sure though. Many, many times I've been the last person alive in a keep. Other times I've died first because I wasn't paying close attention and then - pewpewpew dead. It happens. I do, however believe that since moving to this build my deaths have only gone up marginally, while my kill count has grown enormously.

Idk what you're doing wrong but my healers hit me for like 15k BoL crits

THEDKEXPERIENCE · June 2016

Ironically, my build stinks for dungeons. It's PVP and overland PVE only.

holosoul · June 2016

@danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO
If BoL went up 1k for every 2k magicka your tooltip with 0 spell power would be like 20,000
magicka->bol should be around 10:1 so in reality you should gain about 200 BoL tooltip from 2000 magicka (or so)
or 200 BoL from 200 spell power

THEDKEXPERIENCE · June 2016

It was 6 points of BoL for every 20 points of magicka. 2000 magicka points would be 600 BoL while 4000 would be 1200.

Basically if roughly 40,200 MP = 11,333 BoL than 44,000 should be somewhere around 12,500.

Ishammael · June 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

There shouldn't be one trait that is best above all others. All this tells us is that impen needs an adjustment, along with the crazy damage numbers. It should be worth it for one build to take another trait over impen.

Impen is not good because the other traits are weak. The others are plenty strong, and impen is in line with their level of power.

The issue in my observation is that because heals and shields are so strong, ZOS has to keep damage very high, and we stay in a burst meta. In a high damage burst meta required to damage through people's defenses, if you don't run impen, you just get one-shot.

Decrease effectiveness of heals, decrease overall damage, decrease sustain, and then people will start using other traits much more than impen.

Just my perspective on the matter.

This is the correct analysis.

holosoul · June 2016

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

It was 6 points of BoL for every 20 points of magicka. 2000 magicka points would be 600 BoL while 4000 would be 1200.

Basically if roughly 40,200 MP = 11,333 BoL than 44,000 should be somewhere around 12,500.

@danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO
BoL is increased by spell power as well as magicka, which is why if you're at 40,200 magicka and 11,333 BoL it couldn't possibly be that, since you have at least 2000 spell power which is worth 10 times more than magicka

At that ratio your BoL would be 18,000+ with a mere 2000 spell power

Cinnamon_Spider · June 2016

Either impen is the best trait available, and you can't PVP without it, or the other traits are comparable.

If the former, then the trait and damage needs to be modified (and is what we should be asking for instead). If the latter, then not having access to impen on drops isn't an issue.

americansteel · June 2016

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Impenetrable is gargage. I'm a "hardcore" PVPer. Do you know what my crit resistance is? 68, because I have 1 CP into it.

90% of the time the best defense is a good offense. I run all infused and melt faces. I one shot an Emp last week.

This, of course, is where someone will tell me that whatever example I use isn't a good judge of how good you are at PVP, so I'll just reiterate that you don't need impenetrable to survive and in the right hands infused can be great.

i run 7/7 infused impen is a waste.

Lyar09 · June 2016

I run 7/7 prosperous. What's this impen you speak of?

KenaPKK · June 2016

Lyar09 wrote: »

I run 7/7 prosperous. What's this impen you speak of?

Can I borrow 100k?

KenaPKK · June 2016

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Either impen is the best trait available, and you can't PVP without it, or the other traits are comparable.

If the former, then the trait and damage needs to be modified (and is what we should be asking for instead). If the latter, then not having access to impen on drops isn't an issue.

If you nerf impen, then everyone gets one shot.

If you don't wear impen, then you get one shot.

See the problem there?

Cinnamon_Spider · June 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Either impen is the best trait available, and you can't PVP without it, or the other traits are comparable.

If the former, then the trait and damage needs to be modified (and is what we should be asking for instead). If the latter, then not having access to impen on drops isn't an issue.

If you nerf impen, then everyone gets one shot.

If you don't wear impen, then you get one shot.

See the problem there?

Which is why I said damage is also an issue. Both need to be tweaked. Do you see the solution there?

RocDonald · June 2016

Well, 99% of the time the stuff I get is garbage or I have it already i.e. motifs (which are not worth a whole lot these days). So your really not missing much OP.

Farorin · June 2016

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Impenetrable is gargage. I'm a "hardcore" PVPer. Do you know what my crit resistance is? 68, because I have 1 CP into it.

90% of the time the best defense is a good offense. I run all infused and melt faces. I one shot an Emp last week.

This, of course, is where someone will tell me that whatever example I use isn't a good judge of how good you are at PVP, so I'll just reiterate that you don't need impenetrable to survive and in the right hands infused can be great.

Agreed, I don't have any impen on my stamblade, and I wreck people.

Get injured? Pop vigour, roll dodge, break LOS, pop vigour, and then go back to DPS burst again.

Moltyr · October 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

And that is per character. We get one vendor per week period where they get one key per day per character.

And it's a coin toss as to whether our vendor will sell a shoulder or a helm each week.

So tell me again why Impenetrable was removed from the Undaunted chest loot table @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Edit: I heard that they may have taken impen out of the loot tables for the dungeon helm drops too. Is this true????? Are we just not supposed to be able to get gear now?

"ZOS I WANT ALL THE GEAR THOSE FILTHY PVE'rs GIT WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING 4 IT, PLZ FIX"

Manoekin · October 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

There shouldn't be one trait that is best above all others. All this tells us is that impen needs an adjustment, along with the crazy damage numbers. It should be worth it for one build to take another trait over impen.

I agree in theory but the reality is that there will always be a best in slot. Without making everything exactly the same there will always be certain traits/enchants/sets that combine together to be the most efficient you can possibly be for the activity you do.

I think impen is just too universally good. Traits that are better depending on your build, such as well-fitted, sturdy, infused are cool I think.

KenaPKK wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

There shouldn't be one trait that is best above all others. All this tells us is that impen needs an adjustment, along with the crazy damage numbers. It should be worth it for one build to take another trait over impen.

Impen is not good because the other traits are weak. The others are plenty strong, and impen is in line with their level of power.

The issue in my observation is that because heals and shields are so strong, ZOS has to keep damage very high, and we stay in a burst meta. In a high damage burst meta required to damage through people's defenses, if you don't run impen, you just get one-shot.

Decrease effectiveness of heals, decrease overall damage, decrease sustain, and then people will start using other traits much more than impen.

Just my perspective on the matter.

I don't think that helps honestly. Impen will still be better. People don't usually stack their traits to up their damage now when damage is king. Taking the least amount of damage as possible will always be king imo.

Anazasi · October 2016

picked up a impen helm and shoulder from chest yesterday from undaunted runs. Gear is dropping in impen from dungeons as well. But OMG TRAINING and Prosperous need to *** go. [SNIP]

Ghost-Shot · October 2016

Manoekin wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

There shouldn't be one trait that is best above all others. All this tells us is that impen needs an adjustment, along with the crazy damage numbers. It should be worth it for one build to take another trait over impen.

I agree in theory but the reality is that there will always be a best in slot. Without making everything exactly the same there will always be certain traits/enchants/sets that combine together to be the most efficient you can possibly be for the activity you do.

I think impen is just too universally good. Traits that are better depending on your build, such as well-fitted, sturdy, infused are cool I think.

KenaPKK wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

There shouldn't be one trait that is best above all others. All this tells us is that impen needs an adjustment, along with the crazy damage numbers. It should be worth it for one build to take another trait over impen.

Impen is not good because the other traits are weak. The others are plenty strong, and impen is in line with their level of power.

The issue in my observation is that because heals and shields are so strong, ZOS has to keep damage very high, and we stay in a burst meta. In a high damage burst meta required to damage through people's defenses, if you don't run impen, you just get one-shot.

Decrease effectiveness of heals, decrease overall damage, decrease sustain, and then people will start using other traits much more than impen.

Just my perspective on the matter.

I don't think that helps honestly. Impen will still be better. People don't usually stack their traits to up their damage now when damage is king. Taking the least amount of damage as possible will always be king imo.

I agree, game mechanics that require you to make a choice and tune your build for the role you are trying to fill are very cool.

Danksta · October 2016

Moltyr wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

And that is per character. We get one vendor per week period where they get one key per day per character.

And it's a coin toss as to whether our vendor will sell a shoulder or a helm each week.

So tell me again why Impenetrable was removed from the Undaunted chest loot table @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Edit: I heard that they may have taken impen out of the loot tables for the dungeon helm drops too. Is this true????? Are we just not supposed to be able to get gear now?

"ZOS I WANT ALL THE GEAR THOSE FILTHY PVE'rs GIT WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING 4 IT, PLZ FIX"

That was definitely worth necro'ing this thread. Besides you clearly didn't get the point of the OP. The OP was rightfully upset that impen was taken off the loot table.

zuto40 · October 2016

Moltyr wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

And that is per character. We get one vendor per week period where they get one key per day per character.

And it's a coin toss as to whether our vendor will sell a shoulder or a helm each week.

So tell me again why Impenetrable was removed from the Undaunted chest loot table @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Edit: I heard that they may have taken impen out of the loot tables for the dungeon helm drops too. Is this true????? Are we just not supposed to be able to get gear now?

"ZOS I WANT ALL THE GEAR THOSE FILTHY PVE'rs GIT WITHOUT DOING ANYTHING 4 IT, PLZ FIX"

this is quite literally the most ignorant thing i have ever read on these forums, congratulations sir

Vaoh · October 2016

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Impenetrable is gargage. I'm a "hardcore" PVPer. Do you know what my crit resistance is? 68, because I have 1 CP into it.

90% of the time the best defense is a good offense. I run all infused and melt faces. I one shot an Emp last week.

This, of course, is where someone will tell me that whatever example I use isn't a good judge of how good you are at PVP, so I'll just reiterate that you don't need impenetrable to survive and in the right hands infused can be great.

Man you've got an ego.

Point 1 - Impen sucks
Point 2 - 7/7 Infused is best
Point 3 - I say I'm great at PvP
Point 4 - I'm right, everyone else is wrong
Point 5 - I oneshotted an Emp and its true exactly like that cause I said it

Bruh..... you cannot be taken seriously XD

I run no Impen on my build BECAUSE I'M A MAG SORC!!! And even then I should run some Impen

Alcast · October 2016

lol

THEDKEXPERIENCE · October 2016

Vaoh wrote: »

danielpatrickkeaneub17_ESO wrote: »

Impenetrable is gargage. I'm a "hardcore" PVPer. Do you know what my crit resistance is? 68, because I have 1 CP into it.

90% of the time the best defense is a good offense. I run all infused and melt faces. I one shot an Emp last week.

This, of course, is where someone will tell me that whatever example I use isn't a good judge of how good you are at PVP, so I'll just reiterate that you don't need impenetrable to survive and in the right hands infused can be great.

Man you've got an ego.

Point 1 - Impen sucks
Point 2 - 7/7 Infused is best
Point 3 - I say I'm great at PvP
Point 4 - I'm right, everyone else is wrong
Point 5 - I oneshotted an Emp and its true exactly like that cause I said it

Bruh..... you cannot be taken seriously XD

I run no Impen on my build BECAUSE I'M A MAG SORC!!! And even then I should run some Impen

I have an ego because I'm right.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · October 2016

And since I was called out, I may as well chime back in. Now that 4 months have passed I still don't feel any different. Because of a now excess amount of CP I do have a bit more in crit resistance, about 1000 total now. Honestly, I have not seen much difference.

What I have noticed is every time I try to play "how I'm supposed to" I die. Meanwhile when I play my build I don't. Mist Form continues to be a way better way of dealing with burst damage than impen. My infused set works great.

Here is my current PVP build. Still all infused.

5 Julianos
5 Vicious Death
1 Kena

42k magic, 3.5k buffed spell power

In PVE I swap the VD with 3 Willpower and 2 Magus. Puts me about 44.5 magic.

I have spent millions of gold and dozens of hours searching for better gear, and for me, even the glitched sets aren't as effective. I even leveled a stam build and I stunk with him.

Here is what I know: you do not NEED impen, or any type of meta build. What you NEED in Cyrodiil is to figure out what works best for your play style and doing that.

tonemd · October 2016

Mojmir wrote: »

Make prosperous affect rewards of the worthy LOL

Yes so you can get that gold Leckie Helm that won't sell to anybody.