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FIXING SHUFFLE AND THE HEAVY ARMOR META
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yell0wdart✭✭I'm a big fan of #1. Seems like the best solution. Right now, there's no down side to running heavy armor. There might be a few itemization changes to make (e.g. Armor Master set), but that seems like it'd be the best change to balance things out.Edited by yell0wdart on October 10, 2016 11:42PMPC/NA/EP Lambent Darkness
Señor Papasfritas - Orc Stamina Sorcerer
Señor Papas - Bosmer Stamina Nightblade
El Jefe de los Papas - Altmer Magicka Sorcerer
Mrs Taters - Breton Magicka Nightblade
Sir Taters - Redguard Stamina Dragon Knight1 -
dantator✭✭✭Or how about ZOS chooses me to win the "trip of a lifetime" to compensate me for nerfing dks. All that mental stress playing magdk throughout the nerfs...+Divine Force+
+Divines+4 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think the range of the attack should have something to do with the % chance, like for example if you attack someone from 5 meters there is a 5-10% dodge chance, but at further range there is a 25-35% dodge chance. I think this would realistically make sense, and might help, but I don't really know. Just an idea.
So reduce the effectiveness of ranged builds even more, counting reflects and gap closers?
Cool.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...1 -
Xinthisis✭✭✭✭@leepalmer95 Yeah, some people come out of left field with their suggestions. "Instead of making one simple fix, lets change an ENTIRE mechanic. That always works, right?"0 -
zuto40✭✭✭✭✭Princess_Asgari wrote: »6 second shuffle would be useless..
The first idea is the only real viable option
Everyone said the same thing when every defensive shield in the game was set to six seconds. But guess what? Everyone adapted. The shields even cost the same as before, and magicka spec classes still use them to great effect.
You need to make a choice in this game between offensive and defensive play. There aren't any skill cooldowns in this game, so this is how it's balanced.
#shuffletosixseconds
Spending 5k stam every 6 second s would render the skill useless, changing the way it works would be better, btw shields generally dont last longer then 6 seconds in PvP anyway unless you're fighting potatoes
Harness magicka costs 4200 magicka, and it's not useless. Sorcerer classes still stack two different shields most of the time (a shield and healing ward).
You'll actually have to do what magicka classes do: invest in some cost reduction/regen gear and CP instead of all damage. Magicka classes are wearing Seducer sets, picking cost reduction jewelry, magicka regen drinks, and using the atronach mundus for sustain.
Many of you stam people wear three proc damage sets, most of you don't know what a stamina cost reduction glyph even looks like with 4K weapon damage, and many have never seen a serpent mundus stone. Then you want to complain about the cost of a roll dodge or shuffle. Come on guys..
run 2k regen, 67 in warlord, and use serpent, shuffle every 6 seconds will cost too muchStamblade- Legate
Tank/Heals Templar- Sergeant
Magic DK- Corporal
Stam DK- Sergeant
Stamplar- Corporal
YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCy8uqORxhlrMh8oz2230s9g0 -
Minalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Princess_Asgari wrote: »6 second shuffle would be useless..
The first idea is the only real viable option
Everyone said the same thing when every defensive shield in the game was set to six seconds. But guess what? Everyone adapted. The shields even cost the same as before, and magicka spec classes still use them to great effect.
You need to make a choice in this game between offensive and defensive play. There aren't any skill cooldowns in this game, so this is how it's balanced.
#shuffletosixseconds
Spending 5k stam every 6 second s would render the skill useless, changing the way it works would be better, btw shields generally dont last longer then 6 seconds in PvP anyway unless you're fighting potatoes
Harness magicka costs 4200 magicka, and it's not useless. Sorcerer classes still stack two different shields most of the time (a shield and healing ward).
You'll actually have to do what magicka classes do: invest in some cost reduction/regen gear and CP instead of all damage. Magicka classes are wearing Seducer sets, picking cost reduction jewelry, magicka regen drinks, and using the atronach mundus for sustain.
Many of you stam people wear three proc damage sets, most of you don't know what a stamina cost reduction glyph even looks like with 4K weapon damage, and many have never seen a serpent mundus stone. Then you want to complain about the cost of a roll dodge or shuffle. Come on guys..
run 2k regen, 67 in warlord, and use serpent, shuffle every 6 seconds will cost too much
To sustain indefinitely yes, so again. Welcome to the world that magicka classes live in. Leave your expectations of instant 'macro slices' with decent sustain at the door.2 -
thankyourat✭✭✭✭✭
✭Princess_Asgari wrote: »6 second shuffle would be useless..
The first idea is the only real viable option
Everyone said the same thing when every defensive shield in the game was set to six seconds. But guess what? Everyone adapted. The shields even cost the same as before, and magicka spec classes still use them to great effect.
You need to make a choice in this game between offensive and defensive play. There aren't any skill cooldowns in this game, so this is how it's balanced.
#shuffletosixseconds
Spending 5k stam every 6 second s would render the skill useless, changing the way it works would be better, btw shields generally dont last longer then 6 seconds in PvP anyway unless you're fighting potatoes
Harness magicka costs 4200 magicka, and it's not useless. Sorcerer classes still stack two different shields most of the time (a shield and healing ward).
You'll actually have to do what magicka classes do: invest in some cost reduction/regen gear and CP instead of all damage. Magicka classes are wearing Seducer sets, picking cost reduction jewelry, magicka regen drinks, and using the atronach mundus for sustain.
Many of you stam people wear three proc damage sets, most of you don't know what a stamina cost reduction glyph even looks like with 4K weapon damage, and many have never seen a serpent mundus stone. Then you want to complain about the cost of a roll dodge or shuffle. Come on guys..
run 2k regen, 67 in warlord, and use serpent, shuffle every 6 seconds will cost too much
To sustain indefinitely yes, so again. Welcome to the world that magicka classes live in. Leave your expectations of instant 'macro slices' with decent sustain at the door.
I main a magicka character and if you lower shuffle to six seconds the cost would have to be decreased some. maybe a little less than annulment. I'm all for shuffle being six seconds to maybe make some people lower their weapon damage a little too sustain. Some how stamina characters either need their healing or their damage nerfed, maybe even both0 -
Master_Kas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭thankyourat wrote: »Princess_Asgari wrote: »6 second shuffle would be useless..
The first idea is the only real viable option
Everyone said the same thing when every defensive shield in the game was set to six seconds. But guess what? Everyone adapted. The shields even cost the same as before, and magicka spec classes still use them to great effect.
You need to make a choice in this game between offensive and defensive play. There aren't any skill cooldowns in this game, so this is how it's balanced.
#shuffletosixseconds
Spending 5k stam every 6 second s would render the skill useless, changing the way it works would be better, btw shields generally dont last longer then 6 seconds in PvP anyway unless you're fighting potatoes
Harness magicka costs 4200 magicka, and it's not useless. Sorcerer classes still stack two different shields most of the time (a shield and healing ward).
You'll actually have to do what magicka classes do: invest in some cost reduction/regen gear and CP instead of all damage. Magicka classes are wearing Seducer sets, picking cost reduction jewelry, magicka regen drinks, and using the atronach mundus for sustain.
Many of you stam people wear three proc damage sets, most of you don't know what a stamina cost reduction glyph even looks like with 4K weapon damage, and many have never seen a serpent mundus stone. Then you want to complain about the cost of a roll dodge or shuffle. Come on guys..
run 2k regen, 67 in warlord, and use serpent, shuffle every 6 seconds will cost too much
To sustain indefinitely yes, so again. Welcome to the world that magicka classes live in. Leave your expectations of instant 'macro slices' with decent sustain at the door.
I main a magicka character and if you lower shuffle to six seconds the cost would have to be decreased some. maybe a little less than annulment. I'm all for shuffle being six seconds to maybe make some people lower their weapon damage a little too sustain. Some how stamina characters either need their healing or their damage nerfed, maybe even both
Nerf their healing or damage not both. I prefer mag builds but nerfing both stam dmg+nerfing shuffle+ nerfing their Heals all together would be very bad for balance. We'd have elder skirts online again except the healbots and tanks.
Agreed that stam needs some toning down tough, and heavy armor aswell.
Edited by Master_Kas on October 11, 2016 4:33AMEU | PC0 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Master_Kas wrote: »Agreed that stam needs some toning down tough, and heavy armor aswell.
Wouldn't say that stam needs a nerf anymore to be honest. Medium Armor is far away from being overpowered. I have seen people in medium armor losing to heavy armor stamina AND magicka builds (and this were no scrubs but former tournament winners instead). My rating would be: heavy armor stamina builds > heavy armor magicka builds > medium armor builds > light armor builds (I rate medium armor builds over light armor builds because light armor can't remove slows and roots that easy and is a bit harder to sustain).
That was about duels. Let's take a look at group play: Magplar is incredible strong there because of all the healing and utility that the class gives (+ strongest execute in the game), I don't think that I have to explain much more why Magplar really shines in a group. Magicka Dk is also strong because they can tank much, have good AoE and a strong CC + debuff. Magblades and Magsorcs can just clean up with that destro ultimate right now which is really, really strong, no matter what the people say in the PTS section. It's all a bit early to say but after testing for around 2 hours I don't see that stamina builds have much place in group PvP anymore. Only for duels and soloplay stamina is dominating (the thing which really puts them ahead there are the Major Vitality potions in my opinion. Nerfing them down to 10 seconds duration would already help a lot).I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.0 -
Elara_Northwind✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Damage Shields were reduced to 6 seconds, so surely shuffle should be too... 20 seconds compared with magicka shields 6 seconds is ridiculous, and it doesn't make them useless at all! Granted my characters who use damage shields have to spec more into recovery to keep their shields up when needed, but if magicka people have to sacrifice for this, stamina people should too
Sorcerer, Templar, Wolf Collector, Housing Addict!
GM of Salted Wings Tavern and Salted Wings Housing 🏠🌻
'A House is Built with Boards and Beams, a Home is Built with Love and Dreams'
Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/c/ElaraNorthwind1 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Signing in to add my hapenny.
Agree with #1.
At the end of the day the armour skill represents using and focusing on that specific armour.
So I would say all armour 'active skill' require 5pc to use.
This also stops stacking all 3 at the same time.
The problem is it removes variability and versatility from builds.
You could bias/scale the skills strength depending on the amount of pieces used ?
But then you add complexity to the coding that ZOS already struggles with.
I would prefer the variable option...I just dont think thats a realistic expectation from ZOS without bringing in a whole load of new weird and wonderful bugs.Edited by Rune_Relic on October 11, 2016 11:05AMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
Aiphaton✭✭✭✭:Damage Shields were reduced to 6 seconds, so surely shuffle should be too... 20 seconds compared with magicka shields 6 seconds is ridiculous, and it doesn't make them useless at all! Granted my characters who use damage shields have to spec more into recovery to keep their shields up when needed, but if magicka people have to sacrifice for this, stamina people should too
Well you gain for 6seconds around 18k shilds --> Which protection your Hp
Shuffle --> Dodgechance against a lot of Bs except hardcc .
Shuffle --> No Protection against Curse and Soulassault.
Shilds --> Protection
Making Shuffle a 6 second Skill is Bs cause then i would rather run the Shuffle (Double Take) from the Nb-Skillline which has aswell nearly 30seconds Uptime.
Only removing the snares and slow is missing out.
Shuffle is annoying at some points, but that main problem is the tank meta and the reduced dmg since 1.6.
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Number 1 would *** off virtually every PvE tank that isn't a Nightblade, so that's not happening
and they're not going to reduce the duration of it either because again..It'll *** off every PvE tank.
Also can someone please explain how Heavy Armor is somehow over the top right now? Since currently Light and Medium both are used more then Heavy Armor....
I find it strange no one had a problem when it was nothing but Medium and Light for years..but Heavy suddenly becomes slightly less used then those two and now its a problem..
Because the playstyle associated with heavy armor is tedious. Especially when playing against it. Things are hard to kill when played properly in medium or light armor already.
The option that makes you basically invincible 1v1 should not come along with comparable dmg and sustain when put up against the alternatives.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Magus✭✭✭✭✭I didn't know there were a plethora of heavy armor guys running with shuffle. A 0-1 sec snare immunity isn't that great in 5-7 heavy. Shuffle barely makes any things miss, though hilariously it's usually incap strike that misses and nothing else.
I presume this is about dueling or 1v1 where I guess shuffle on heavy would make a difference.
Right now this is what the normal things you run into dueling:
1) magsorc standing in mines, dropping atronachs, stacking annulment morph of choice and healing ward and hardened ward and hoping for you to want to die so they can frag combo you from boredom.
2) heavy armor templar that you can almost burst kill then they heal to full instantly but their pitiful puncturing sweeps can't hurt you unless they are running valkyn skoria
3) magDK spamming fossilize and talons on you while standing behind you and hitting burning embers and flame lash and proccing 4k flames of oblivion on your 7 heavy impen character. If you hurt them, they immediately pop an ultimate and/or spam annulment morph and healing ward
4) stamDK spamming fossilize and venomous claw, rearming trap and dawnbreaker. If you hurt them, they immediately pop an ultimate and/or vigor/rally to full health immediately.
5) magnb - lawl? where?
6) stamsorc - rearming trap and dawnbreaker, dual wielder flurrying all over or the traditional 2h bar that everyone has, look out for the procs doing their damage and their passive doing the execute. If you hurt them, they streak away and dark deal to full health immediately.
7) stamblade - king of the hill. fear OP. incap OP. hurt them, shadow image away and cloak to full heal. Next balance change will give surprise attack a heal debuff and a soft CC with no immunity - I'm calling it now.
Then to various degrees of cancer, add in poisons, vitality potions for the true tryhards.
8) Forgot stamplar - so did all the stam sorc rerolls - heyoo. But yeah, purge is really strong on them.Edited by Magus on October 11, 2016 11:55AMDuraeon / Maoh
Former Emperor of Haderus, Trueflame, and Azura's Star
PC/NA0 -
Master_Kas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Master_Kas wrote: »Agreed that stam needs some toning down tough, and heavy armor aswell.
Wouldn't say that stam needs a nerf anymore to be honest. Medium Armor is far away from being overpowered. I have seen people in medium armor losing to heavy armor stamina AND magicka builds (and this were no scrubs but former tournament winners instead). My rating would be: heavy armor stamina builds > heavy armor magicka builds > medium armor builds > light armor builds (I rate medium armor builds over light armor builds because light armor can't remove slows and roots that easy and is a bit harder to sustain).
That was about duels. Let's take a look at group play: Magplar is incredible strong there because of all the healing and utility that the class gives (+ strongest execute in the game), I don't think that I have to explain much more why Magplar really shines in a group. Magicka Dk is also strong because they can tank much, have good AoE and a strong CC + debuff. Magblades and Magsorcs can just clean up with that destro ultimate right now which is really, really strong, no matter what the people say in the PTS section. It's all a bit early to say but after testing for around 2 hours I don't see that stamina builds have much place in group PvP anymore. Only for duels and soloplay stamina is dominating (the thing which really puts them ahead there are the Major Vitality potions in my opinion. Nerfing them down to 10 seconds duration would already help a lot).
Yeah my bad. Medium armor builds I'm fine with being so bursty because they are pretty squishy aswell. Was a bit tired when I wrote it.
And agreed, for groupplay mag is still good, it's just a bit worse for soloing imo.
I've seen the power of the destro ulti already, I can't wait to morph mine on my bomberblade :<EU | PC1 -
zuto40✭✭✭✭✭Princess_Asgari wrote: »6 second shuffle would be useless..
The first idea is the only real viable option
Everyone said the same thing when every defensive shield in the game was set to six seconds. But guess what? Everyone adapted. The shields even cost the same as before, and magicka spec classes still use them to great effect.
You need to make a choice in this game between offensive and defensive play. There aren't any skill cooldowns in this game, so this is how it's balanced.
#shuffletosixseconds
Spending 5k stam every 6 second s would render the skill useless, changing the way it works would be better, btw shields generally dont last longer then 6 seconds in PvP anyway unless you're fighting potatoes
Harness magicka costs 4200 magicka, and it's not useless. Sorcerer classes still stack two different shields most of the time (a shield and healing ward).
You'll actually have to do what magicka classes do: invest in some cost reduction/regen gear and CP instead of all damage. Magicka classes are wearing Seducer sets, picking cost reduction jewelry, magicka regen drinks, and using the atronach mundus for sustain.
Many of you stam people wear three proc damage sets, most of you don't know what a stamina cost reduction glyph even looks like with 4K weapon damage, and many have never seen a serpent mundus stone. Then you want to complain about the cost of a roll dodge or shuffle. Come on guys..
run 2k regen, 67 in warlord, and use serpent, shuffle every 6 seconds will cost too much
To sustain indefinitely yes, so again. Welcome to the world that magicka classes live in. Leave your expectations of instant 'macro slices' with decent sustain at the door.
I ran magic nb the current 2nd worst magic class for awhile, don't try to lecture me, as someone with extensive knowledge of stam and magic nb this would *** stamblade in fights making it almost exclusively ganking for most players, make it cost 2k if it's 6 seconds or change the way it worksStamblade- Legate
Tank/Heals Templar- Sergeant
Magic DK- Corporal
Stam DK- Sergeant
Stamplar- Corporal
YouTube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCy8uqORxhlrMh8oz2230s9g1 -
Alphaa✭✭✭Give shuffle the same treatment as DK's wings...
It can only dodge 'X' ammount of attacks in 'X' ammount of seconds..
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rfennell_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The dodge spam probably isn't shuffle and never was.
Hence why the shady types will jump on board with any "fix shuffle" thing as they already know it won't change a thing for them.1 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@Xinthisis
I don't mean this poorly, but it's odd to have this thread while you post videos of 100-0ing people within a single animation cancel.
There's a reason heavy armor is so widely used, it's because damage is at insane, out of control levels. If damage is scaled down then you find more variety, but right now if you're not a tank you're food for anyone with a few proc sets on.
Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost2 -
Paraflex✭✭✭✭It seems pretty fair to lower evasion/shuffle/blur to a 6 second timer and lower the cost to be in line with mag shields.
I do agree if you had to wear 5 pieces to use that skill lines ability like annulment,shuffle,immobility this would balance the game a bit.
I don't think giving mag DKs Ash Cloud evasion to everyone is the answer. Do we really need more people running around with evasion? That's like saying let's give everyone breath of life because it's such a good heal.Edited by Paraflex on October 11, 2016 5:53PMHollykills CP 630 Templar Healer - Ad PS4 Warlord Rank
Max Stam/Mag Dk
Max Stam Sorc
Max Stam/Mag NB
Don't care to dps much so I heal.0 -
Xinthisis✭✭✭✭@satiar would you rather I upload videos tanking 24 man groups and killing people in the process with a blackrose dk?
I understand what you mean, but even people that are apart of this meta and using blackrose or heavy armor on 1vx builds say its overperforming. One way to fix it without throwing armor balance out of wack again is to just make shuffle a 5 medium only ability.1 -
Magus✭✭✭✭✭@satiar would you rather I upload videos tanking 24 man groups and killing people in the process with a blackrose dk?
I understand what you mean, but even people that are apart of this meta and using blackrose or heavy armor on 1vx builds say its overperforming. One way to fix it without throwing armor balance out of wack again is to just make shuffle a 5 medium only ability.
Yes I would like you to do this LOL. That's a bit of an exaggeration. 1v24 man raid, yes. Do it. Blackrose OP LOL.Duraeon / Maoh
Former Emperor of Haderus, Trueflame, and Azura's Star
PC/NA1 -
Satiar✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@satiar would you rather I upload videos tanking 24 man groups and killing people in the process with a blackrose dk?
I understand what you mean, but even people that are apart of this meta and using blackrose or heavy armor on 1vx builds say its overperforming. One way to fix it without throwing armor balance out of wack again is to just make shuffle a 5 medium only ability.
The difference between the two is this:
Good players won't be overly bothered by a tank in black rose. Debuff, fear, focus, dead.
On the other hand, no matter how good you are you can't really defend against literal insta-kill builds. Even beyond those, anyone with a bow and some procs just outputs waaaaaay too much damage, and that's without bringing things like Dawnbreaker into the equation, or the 2h ult.
I played 1 night in medium armor and pretty much immediately realized why everyone is in heavy. It's a direct counter to the insane damage being tossed out.
Vehemence -- Commander and Raid Lead -- Tri-faction PvP
Knights Paravant -- Co-GM and Raid Lead -- AD Greyhost2 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
Yeah, medium amor veliviperhunding doesn't work /sarcasmPrinceFabious wrote: »If number 1 is implemented, you dont need the other ideas. 1 is all you need to fix stam
It would be enough to remove root immunity from shuffle0 -
OdinForge✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Yeah, medium amor veliviperhunding doesn't work /sarcasmPrinceFabious wrote: »If number 1 is implemented, you dont need the other ideas. 1 is all you need to fix stam
It would be enough to remove root immunity from shuffle
You can get the damage in medium, but you can't get the defense and the sustain. Or you can sustain in medium, with lower damage.
In heavy you can get the defense, damage and sustain.
Hence why moving shuffle to medium only, would force a lot of people to sacrifice heavy and become vulnerable if they want the big damage burst.The Age of Wrobel.1 -
BFT88✭✭✭✭jyates214b14_ESO wrote: »I agree with 1 and 3. ZoS specifically said they want players to choose to be offensive or defensive at times in the fight. This was the reason for the damage shield nerf.
So it's only fair that Stamina is given the same treatment. You want to mitigate damage using shuffle? That's fine, you have 6 seconds for it while you are mainly going defensive, but by the time you're going offensive it'll run out.
But yeah the heavy armor mitigation, plus 20% dodge chance, plus larger heals, plus decent resource sustain is a little extreme for heavy armor. #1 would be a nice touch.
But the damage shield ALWAYS absorbs damage (unless shield breakered). Shuffle has a 20% CHANCE to dodge your attacks. Apples to oranges imho.1 -
Sugaroverdose✭✭✭✭✭
How the hell did you combine shuffle and burst damage?Sugaroverdose wrote: »
Yeah, medium amor veliviperhunding doesn't work /sarcasmPrinceFabious wrote: »If number 1 is implemented, you dont need the other ideas. 1 is all you need to fix stam
It would be enough to remove root immunity from shuffle
You can get the damage in medium, but you can't get the defense and the sustain. Or you can sustain in medium, with lower damage.
In heavy you can get the defense, damage and sustain.
Hence why moving shuffle to medium only, would force a lot of people to sacrifice heavy and become vulnerable if they want the big damage burst.
1
