FIXING SHUFFLE AND THE HEAVY ARMOR META

zuto40 · October 2016

1: yes

2: shuffle works like dodge roll, it opens a dodge window, people not understanding how it works is why its considered op

3: do you want this skill to be useless

4: Its fine with the new sets from 1T, knights errant is another equally if not stronger heavy armor set

Bashev · October 2016

zuto40 wrote: »

1: yes

2: shuffle works like dodge roll, it opens a dodge window, people not understanding how it works is why its considered op

3: do you want this skill to be useless

4: Its fine with the new sets from 1T, knights errant is another equally if not stronger heavy armor set

This is the root of the problem for shuffle. Change the dodge roll to miss and it should be calculated for each attack. Then problem solved. Now when the dodge proc I dodge the next attacks in the dodge window and people think that the chance is higher.

Minalan · October 2016

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

6 second shuffle would be useless..

The first idea is the only real viable option

Everyone said the same thing when every defensive shield in the game was set to six seconds. But guess what? Everyone adapted. The shields even cost the same as before, and magicka spec classes still use them to great effect.

You need to make a choice in this game between offensive and defensive play. There aren't any skill cooldowns in this game, so this is how it's balanced.

#shuffletosixseconds

donJay · October 2016

Yes, agreed.

Derra · October 2016

Remove dodge % chance. Replace it with a mechanic that evades every fifth attack.

Also the other points in the topic get my +1

Qbiken · October 2016

Since all comments on this thread only agree with you I´ll be the first one to break it to you: Shuffle and heavy armor isn´t an issue in PvP (especially not shuffle). When it comes to dodge chance (I don´t care if you think a passive dodge is stupid or not, that´s not what the thread is about just to clarify this), there´s more than just the "Shuffle"-skill itself.

* First ofc you have the shuffle skill that gives you a 20% dodge chance for about 20 seconds. This can proc from mulitple sources at once which causes many players to think that shuffle is broken. Allowing to dodge from multiple sources at once is one of the reasons Tava´s favor is such a good tanking set for PvE.
* You have line of sight and distance to your target. With distance I talk about the range your skills can reach.
* You can dodgeroll. A dodgeroll won´t "proc" a dodge from shuffle which allows shuffle to "proc" after dodgerolling an attack/skill.

As you see there´s a lot of things that can cause attacks and skills to miss and it´s very unlikely that shuffle is the issue in this case (or in any other case for that matter). And the change of dodging an attack fromt the same source 2 times in a row is very small: 0.2*0.2= 0.04 (a 4% chance). And beside there´re skills that can´t be dodgeable (like RD and Soulassault). Now some of you will say that this is only available for templars and other classes can´t use that adwantage: Well guess what, all classes aren´t supposed to be equally good at everything, deal with it.

Now heavy armor. In this case it isn´t the heavy armor skilline itself that is the issue, but the different kind of armorsets that are available. Sets like Blackrose/reactive etc are strong sets (even tho I don´t consider them to be broken) but as I said before: The issue (if any issue at all) lies with the sets, not the armor skilline itself.
People complain that you can do almost the same amount of damage with heavy armor as with medium or light (depending on whether you are stamina or magicka) and also get the defensive pros of heavy armor. This isn´t true, you lose a lot of damage output from using heavy armor, but it doesn´t mean you still can´t do damage. People tend to use their PvE builds in PvP and then wondering why they wipe or can´t kill someone quick enough. The L2P factor is presumably the issue in the most cases.

And unless someone have some real prof (videoevidence, and please more than 1 video) that heavy armor or shuffle is broken or not working as intended, please feel free to show me. I talk from my perspective only and have no problem with being proven wrong as long as someone can give some solid arguments and/or evidence

arkansas_ESO · October 2016

Implementing #1 would be such a small change that would improve the game dramatically. @Wrobel pls

zuto40 · October 2016

Minalan wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

6 second shuffle would be useless..

The first idea is the only real viable option

Everyone said the same thing when every defensive shield in the game was set to six seconds. But guess what? Everyone adapted. The shields even cost the same as before, and magicka spec classes still use them to great effect.

You need to make a choice in this game between offensive and defensive play. There aren't any skill cooldowns in this game, so this is how it's balanced.

#shuffletosixseconds

Spending 5k stam every 6 second s would render the skill useless, changing the way it works would be better, btw shields generally dont last longer then 6 seconds in PvP anyway unless you're fighting potatoes

Ragnaroek93 · October 2016

zuto40 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

6 second shuffle would be useless..

The first idea is the only real viable option

Everyone said the same thing when every defensive shield in the game was set to six seconds. But guess what? Everyone adapted. The shields even cost the same as before, and magicka spec classes still use them to great effect.

You need to make a choice in this game between offensive and defensive play. There aren't any skill cooldowns in this game, so this is how it's balanced.

#shuffletosixseconds

Spending 5k stam every 6 second s would render the skill useless, changing the way it works would be better, btw shields generally dont last longer then 6 seconds in PvP anyway unless you're fighting potatoes

I have to disagree. Shields dont last longer than 6 seconds if you get pressured. But if you pressure the enemy they did last longer than 6 seconds.

LeifErickson · October 2016

Make it 6 seconds. I would still use it open world for snare removal.

Xsorus · October 2016

Number 1 would *** off virtually every PvE tank that isn't a Nightblade, so that's not happening

and they're not going to reduce the duration of it either because again..It'll *** off every PvE tank.

Also can someone please explain how Heavy Armor is somehow over the top right now? Since currently Light and Medium both are used more then Heavy Armor....

I find it strange no one had a problem when it was nothing but Medium and Light for years..but Heavy suddenly becomes slightly less used then those two and now its a problem..

Minalan · October 2016

zuto40 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

6 second shuffle would be useless..

The first idea is the only real viable option

Everyone said the same thing when every defensive shield in the game was set to six seconds. But guess what? Everyone adapted. The shields even cost the same as before, and magicka spec classes still use them to great effect.

You need to make a choice in this game between offensive and defensive play. There aren't any skill cooldowns in this game, so this is how it's balanced.

#shuffletosixseconds

Spending 5k stam every 6 second s would render the skill useless, changing the way it works would be better, btw shields generally dont last longer then 6 seconds in PvP anyway unless you're fighting potatoes

Harness magicka costs 4200 magicka, and it's not useless. Sorcerer classes still stack two different shields most of the time (a shield and healing ward).

You'll actually have to do what magicka classes do: invest in some cost reduction/regen gear and CP instead of all damage. Magicka classes are wearing Seducer sets, picking cost reduction jewelry, magicka regen drinks, and using the atronach mundus for sustain.

Many of you stam people wear three proc damage sets, most of you don't know what a stamina cost reduction glyph even looks like with 4K weapon damage, and many have never seen a serpent mundus stone. Then you want to complain about the cost of a roll dodge or shuffle. Come on guys..

Sandman929 · October 2016

Minalan wrote: »

zuto40 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

6 second shuffle would be useless..

The first idea is the only real viable option

Everyone said the same thing when every defensive shield in the game was set to six seconds. But guess what? Everyone adapted. The shields even cost the same as before, and magicka spec classes still use them to great effect.

You need to make a choice in this game between offensive and defensive play. There aren't any skill cooldowns in this game, so this is how it's balanced.

#shuffletosixseconds

Spending 5k stam every 6 second s would render the skill useless, changing the way it works would be better, btw shields generally dont last longer then 6 seconds in PvP anyway unless you're fighting potatoes

Harness magicka costs 4200 magicka, and it's not useless. Sorcerer classes still stack two different shields most of the time (a shield and healing ward).

You'll actually have to do what magicka classes do: invest in some cost reduction/regen gear and CP instead of all damage. Magicka classes are wearing Seducer sets, picking cost reduction jewelry, magicka regen drinks, and using the atronach mundus for sustain.

Many of you stam people wear three proc damage sets, most of you don't know what a stamina cost reduction glyph even looks like with 4K weapon damage, and many have never seen a serpent mundus stone. Then you want to complain about the cost of a roll dodge or shuffle. Come on guys..

But that would mean they can't spec all damage, and they're just not having it because of....reasons.

Manoekin · October 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

Number 1 would *** off virtually every PvE tank that isn't a Nightblade, so that's not happening

and they're not going to reduce the duration of it either because again..It'll *** off every PvE tank.

Also can someone please explain how Heavy Armor is somehow over the top right now? Since currently Light and Medium both are used more then Heavy Armor....

I find it strange no one had a problem when it was nothing but Medium and Light for years..but Heavy suddenly becomes slightly less used then those two and now its a problem..

Just like they'd never remove stam regen while blocking

Paraflex · October 2016

Ernest145 wrote: »

They should also consider a nerf to the unchained cp passive, right now it is one of the main reason a lot of builds can sustain so easily while stacking so much into damage and little to no regen.

Yea this is very accurate change this CP Passive and Stam builds will actually need to build for recovery if anything this needs to be changed. I do like the wearing 5 pieces to activate the armor skill because this prevents heavy armor builds to run around with shuffle....which would be nice.

Xsorus · October 2016

Manoekin wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Number 1 would *** off virtually every PvE tank that isn't a Nightblade, so that's not happening

and they're not going to reduce the duration of it either because again..It'll *** off every PvE tank.

Also can someone please explain how Heavy Armor is somehow over the top right now? Since currently Light and Medium both are used more then Heavy Armor....

I find it strange no one had a problem when it was nothing but Medium and Light for years..but Heavy suddenly becomes slightly less used then those two and now its a problem..

Just like they'd never remove stam regen while blocking

And look what they had to do once they removed it; buff the *** out of heavy armor and constitution

Paraflex · October 2016

Derra wrote: »

Remove dodge % chance. Replace it with a mechanic that evades every fifth attack.

Also the other points in the topic get my +1

Not a bad idea either

Soulac · October 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

Number 1 would *** off virtually every PvE tank that isn't a Nightblade, so that's not happening

and they're not going to reduce the duration of it either because again..It'll *** off every PvE tank.

Also can someone please explain how Heavy Armor is somehow over the top right now? Since currently Light and Medium both are used more then Heavy Armor....

I find it strange no one had a problem when it was nothing but Medium and Light for years..but Heavy suddenly becomes slightly less used then those two and now its a problem..

Easy. Changes only apply to PvP.
They should really consider to change how some abilities work depending if it's PvE or PvP.
This game will never reach any sort of good balance if you have to balance skills in a way to be useful, but not op in both PvE and PvP.

Paraflex · October 2016

Minalan wrote: »

zuto40 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

6 second shuffle would be useless..

The first idea is the only real viable option

Everyone said the same thing when every defensive shield in the game was set to six seconds. But guess what? Everyone adapted. The shields even cost the same as before, and magicka spec classes still use them to great effect.

You need to make a choice in this game between offensive and defensive play. There aren't any skill cooldowns in this game, so this is how it's balanced.

#shuffletosixseconds

Spending 5k stam every 6 second s would render the skill useless, changing the way it works would be better, btw shields generally dont last longer then 6 seconds in PvP anyway unless you're fighting potatoes

Harness magicka costs 4200 magicka, and it's not useless. Sorcerer classes still stack two different shields most of the time (a shield and healing ward).

You'll actually have to do what magicka classes do: invest in some cost reduction/regen gear and CP instead of all damage. Magicka classes are wearing Seducer sets, picking cost reduction jewelry, magicka regen drinks, and using the atronach mundus for sustain.

Many of you stam people wear three proc damage sets, most of you don't know what a stamina cost reduction glyph even looks like with 4K weapon damage, and many have never seen a serpent mundus stone. Then you want to complain about the cost of a roll dodge or shuffle. Come on guys..

If you looked at the better Stam pvp player base I would say 95% of the players have all 3 wep dmg glyphs for better heals and better dmg.

They really need to just make vigor and rally a flat value like what the did to crit surge. This would help with stacking wep dmg builds.

Xinthisis · October 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Number 1 would *** off virtually every PvE tank that isn't a Nightblade, so that's not happening

and they're not going to reduce the duration of it either because again..It'll *** off every PvE tank.

Also can someone please explain how Heavy Armor is somehow over the top right now? Since currently Light and Medium both are used more then Heavy Armor....

I find it strange no one had a problem when it was nothing but Medium and Light for years..but Heavy suddenly becomes slightly less used then those two and now its a problem..

Just like they'd never remove stam regen while blocking

And look what they had to do once they removed it; buff the *** out of heavy armor and constitution

How about this.. Give cinderstorm or whatever that dk aoe is called major evasion for all allies standing in it. That was one solution mentioned by many other people in this thread. I assume you didn't read that?

Paneross · October 2016

Shuffle is a giant problem.

Sandman929 · October 2016

Xinthisis wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Manoekin wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Number 1 would *** off virtually every PvE tank that isn't a Nightblade, so that's not happening

and they're not going to reduce the duration of it either because again..It'll *** off every PvE tank.

Also can someone please explain how Heavy Armor is somehow over the top right now? Since currently Light and Medium both are used more then Heavy Armor....

I find it strange no one had a problem when it was nothing but Medium and Light for years..but Heavy suddenly becomes slightly less used then those two and now its a problem..

Just like they'd never remove stam regen while blocking

And look what they had to do once they removed it; buff the *** out of heavy armor and constitution

How about this.. Give cinderstorm or whatever that dk aoe is called major evasion for all allies standing in it. That was one solution mentioned by many other people in this thread. I assume you didn't read that?

I'd really rather they get rid of passive dodging altogether.

Xinthisis · October 2016

@Qbiken For discussion and debate sake I'll counter your arguments. Shuffle opens up a "Dodge window" basically leading to multiple attacks missing for a certain amount of time (about 1 second). This is not 20% on each attack, its 20% proc to become damn near invincible with no cooldown. Heavy armor by itself is pretty close in line with the other armor types balance wise, as long as they dont have passive dodge as well as all the other defensive passives. The argument of LOS, distance, and the like is also irrelevant to the discussion at hand. So yeah, no need to even discuss that.
As for heavy armor, I also agree that the passives buffs to the skillline weren't thought out too well. Initially I wanted to make number 4. Revert the heavy armor buffs. Bring back block cost reduction, and the constitution buff based on max health with a slight buff as it was atrocious before.

I decided not too because people would only focus on that as they did in my Blackrose post instead of the important points at hand. Like making armor skilllines only usable while wearing 5 pieces of that armor type.

I get where you're coming from, but most of your points are irrelevant to the discussion. Player skill, decision making, and overall choices are variables that dont involve the actual mechanics of having 5 heavy with shuffle up.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · October 2016

Paraflex wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

zuto40 wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

6 second shuffle would be useless..

The first idea is the only real viable option

Everyone said the same thing when every defensive shield in the game was set to six seconds. But guess what? Everyone adapted. The shields even cost the same as before, and magicka spec classes still use them to great effect.

You need to make a choice in this game between offensive and defensive play. There aren't any skill cooldowns in this game, so this is how it's balanced.

#shuffletosixseconds

Spending 5k stam every 6 second s would render the skill useless, changing the way it works would be better, btw shields generally dont last longer then 6 seconds in PvP anyway unless you're fighting potatoes

Harness magicka costs 4200 magicka, and it's not useless. Sorcerer classes still stack two different shields most of the time (a shield and healing ward).

You'll actually have to do what magicka classes do: invest in some cost reduction/regen gear and CP instead of all damage. Magicka classes are wearing Seducer sets, picking cost reduction jewelry, magicka regen drinks, and using the atronach mundus for sustain.

Many of you stam people wear three proc damage sets, most of you don't know what a stamina cost reduction glyph even looks like with 4K weapon damage, and many have never seen a serpent mundus stone. Then you want to complain about the cost of a roll dodge or shuffle. Come on guys..

If you looked at the better Stam pvp player base I would say 95% of the players have all 3 wep dmg glyphs for better heals and better dmg.

They really need to just make vigor and rally a flat value like what the did to crit surge. This would help with stacking wep dmg builds.

Glad someone finally mentioned vigor. Here is what I have found.

Uses Heavy Armor: No big deal
Uses Shuffle: Annoying but really, no big deal.
Uses Vigor: No big deal

Uses 2 of 3: Very annoying but it's not unbeatable.

Uses 3 of 3: C'mon. 95% of Cyrodiil has no chance.

I'm specced for an insane amount of damage on my Magplar. I've hit NPCs for 50k tics before. I feel like without The Beam nobody would have a chance. I don't know how the other magic builds do it.

arkansas_ESO · October 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

Number 1 would *** off virtually every PvE tank that isn't a Nightblade, so that's not happening

and they're not going to reduce the duration of it either because again..It'll *** off every PvE tank.

Also can someone please explain how Heavy Armor is somehow over the top right now? Since currently Light and Medium both are used more then Heavy Armor....

I find it strange no one had a problem when it was nothing but Medium and Light for years..but Heavy suddenly becomes slightly less used then those two and now its a problem..

The amount of people using a thing doesn't necessarily mean it's powerful or not, otherwise Maelstrom weapons, which only a small portion of the community has access to, would be underpowered.

Siphoneer · October 2016

I think they should make the dodge chance work like blur/mirage/double take

OdinForge · October 2016

Heavy armor users should be tanky by nature, and heavy armor should be strong. Heavy armor users could still use forward momentum, which gives a stronger snare immunity (or it should, unless it's broken).

Heavy armor shouldn't be able to do everything in pvp, just like medium armor can no longer be the single armor choice for everything. You can no longer be very tanky in medium armor, so there should be a choice.

Stamina builds that want to retain rally for a more aggressive heal and shuffle for snare/root management will have to use medium.

arkansas_ESO · October 2016

Soulac wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

Number 1 would *** off virtually every PvE tank that isn't a Nightblade, so that's not happening

and they're not going to reduce the duration of it either because again..It'll *** off every PvE tank.

Also can someone please explain how Heavy Armor is somehow over the top right now? Since currently Light and Medium both are used more then Heavy Armor....

I find it strange no one had a problem when it was nothing but Medium and Light for years..but Heavy suddenly becomes slightly less used then those two and now its a problem..

Easy. Changes only apply to PvP.
They should really consider to change how some abilities work depending if it's PvE or PvP.
This game will never reach any sort of good balance if you have to balance skills in a way to be useful, but not op in both PvE and PvP.

It's not like it's unprecedented, or that the code doesn't already exist, either. Ambush stuns enemy NPCs, but only snares enemy players. Why can't we have something similar for Shuffle?

Oxwood · October 2016

I think the range of the attack should have something to do with the % chance, like for example if you attack someone from 5 meters there is a 5-10% dodge chance, but at further range there is a 25-35% dodge chance. I think this would realistically make sense, and might help, but I don't really know. Just an idea.

Xinthisis · October 2016

Oxwood wrote: »

I think the range of the attack should have something to do with the % chance, like for example if you attack someone from 5 meters there is a 5-10% dodge chance, but at further range there is a 25-35% dodge chance. I think this would realistically make sense, and might help, but I don't really know. Just an idea.

lol, do you have any idea how much work that would be for zos? They had a hard time fixing gap closers that they broke in the first place after banning people for using the gap closers that were in game for months. Which btw, gap closers still have the same issues they've been having since launch. Lets keep it simple man.