A fair PVP Justice System concept

Taternater · October 2016

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Taternater wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

Here is the thing with an optional system, if enough people are going to opt out, then what good is it to use resources and time to develop something that most people will not use?

I can't think of anyone, unless they are a dedicated PvP player, who would opt into a system of any kind that allows a PvP response to PvE activities if they have a way to opt out. Sure, their might be a few out there, but based on all the threads we have on this, most PvE people don't want a PvP justice system.

Are you by any chance named after a character from Nintendo Power Magazine?

Nestor, tamer of horses, is in the Iliad... you know, written by Homer over two and a half thousand years ago!

Kids of today...

I knew the Simpsons is a really old show, but dang...

Katahdin · October 2016

No, No, No, 1000s times NO

I want to be able to do the TG and DB quests and level my legerdmain, DB and TG skill lines WITHOUT forced PvP.

You guys got dueling everywhere, arenas are coming, battlegrounds are coming.

"Us guys" are against any more PvP in PvE because we want to play the PvE portions of the game in peace, not be subject to greifers camping the thieves den entrances or any lock box waiting for someone do something.
When I want to PvP, I go to the PvP zones of Cyrodiil.

The only way I would ever be ok with this is if I can check an OPT OUT box and still be able to play the DB, TG content and level my legerdmain, DB and TG skill lines.

Otherwise
NO MORE PVP IN PVE ZONES.

hingarthuub17_ESO · October 2016

XDragonDoomX wrote: »

No.
If I want pvp, I go to Cyrodiil. I don't want to be railroaded into PvP - The Thieves Guild has daily quests, not even the scouting quests in Cyro force you into PvP if you accept one.

Seconded. I wish there was a way of just ignoring these types of threads.

hingarthuub17_ESO · October 2016

Taternater wrote: »

You pvers, did you know that guilds of players bidding on guild vendors with some guilds winning and some losing is pvp? It's just a more peaceful version of pvp.

I lol'ed. Thank you for making my Monday.

Agobi · October 2016

Wow,these threads never ever stop do they

No,no ..then no not happening...followed by no wai!

Katahdin · October 2016

hingarthuub17_ESO wrote: »

XDragonDoomX wrote: »

No.
If I want pvp, I go to Cyrodiil. I don't want to be railroaded into PvP - The Thieves Guild has daily quests, not even the scouting quests in Cyro force you into PvP if you accept one.

Seconded. I wish there was a way of just ignoring these types of threads.

You cant ignore them. If you dont speak up, we will have all PvE zones turned into all PvP zones with no choice whatsoever

Korah_Eaglecry · October 2016

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

We all know the Bounty Hunters wont target anyone that looks as if they can hold their own.

But if said person can not hold his own in a fight, why would he sign up?
People can't be protected 100%.. This suggestion is about as safe as it comes.. If you can't read/understand what the game tells you, there's nothing that's safe for you

When you enter Cyrodiil as a level 10 newb. You know youre walking into a fight. And even then there are buffers to prevent you from immediately becoming an easy target. Alliance Home Bases, Wayshrines between them, and Transitus Shrines between Keeps. So even when you sign up for PvP in the PvP centric zone. You are being protected to an extent. Youre even given quests to give you a run down of what to expect and how to play in Cyrodiil.

In this proposed system. Youd be protected as long as you press No. After that, regardless of how little or how much you understand of the system. Youre free game.

When people think of Justice System PvP they probably instantly think of two or more equally experienced players working against each other. One running and avoiding and the other hunting them down in some sort of digital Dog the Bounty Hunter style gameplay. But that will rarely if ever happen. The vast majority of players participating in this will fall into three camps.

Exploiters - Will team up with each other and game the system so that they can take turns utilizing the system in a way that ZOS did not originally intend. This will be the most prevalent as itll be the easiest way to gain from the system.
Newb Hunters - Will park themselves in areas that will see a good bit of traffic from new players and will likely see new players running around with the Justice System shineys. Theyll likely avoid targeting anyone that has enough CP and good gear to defend themselves and solely target anyone that cant. Fun for the Bounty Hunter.....Not at all for those who are still learning the ins and out of the game.
Fair Player - These are players that will likely try it out and at the very least try to use it in the way they feel ZOS would approve of. But will almost never get to use it since experienced players will avoid being targets and newbs will be dead before they can lay a blade on them.

Tandor · October 2016

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Theres always someone that thinks theyre smarter than everyone else and has come up with some brilliant solution to the PvP Justice System problem. Or think everyone else is idiots and wont notice the blatantly flawed and exploitative nature of the solution.

Justice System PvP will not be a thing as long as it backs PvEers into a corner and removes their autonomy.

That's the thing though With this proposal, you enter it voluntarily.. No back to the wall

Volunteer for content that is masqurading as PvE while being a Gank-Fest. The only people who will benefit from this or any other PvP Justice System will be the griefers.

I'm not sure I see it the same way.. The previously suggested systems where a bounty could auto-enable PvP justice was indeed bad.. But here you grab a specific item and get an information prompt, telling you that this will be PvP if you continue.. To me, that equals going into Cyrodill.. If you say yes (like walking into Cyrodill), you say yes to PvP.. Then you should know what you sign up for.. You can freely walk away.. But if you go on, you have freely signed up for the whole experience

That's fine, in PvP zones. However, do most PvEers want such prompts occurring all over the place in the open world zones that are intended to be "safe areas" in the words of ZOS? As a PvEer I want to be able to steal stuff in PvE areas without wondering whether I'm going to get a PvP prompt or not, and without being denied access to the top tier of PvE content because I don't want to PvP. Why, in a PvE area, should the high-value proceeds from thieving only be available to PvPers?

If the proposal is to add a new tier to the PvE Justice System that introduces PvP to it, then let that be fully voluntary so that those who want to run that content as PvE can do so and those who want to run it as a sort of compromise dueling/Justice exercise in PvP can do so. That way it can certainly offer a new twist on dueling for those who want it, and can also bring an element of PvP into the Justice System without anyone being forced to choose between accepting PvP or avoiding the special thieving loot. All it needs is a simple toggle to enable/disable the system with the toggle incapable of being switched for a fixed time period after a high-value item has been taken.

Now correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think he has actually mentioned anything about this item having value? I think it's meant as the kick off for the PvP justice, enabling the system.. The way I read it, it's kind of a second system, which ensures that the system we have now , will not be tampered with at all.. I think his suggestions will just add a few random items that we can pick up to activate this secondary system

I think you need to re-read the proposal, it is related specifically to the addition of "very high-value items". Check out the first sentence under the heading "Thieves".

Daemons_Bane · October 2016

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

We all know the Bounty Hunters wont target anyone that looks as if they can hold their own.

But if said person can not hold his own in a fight, why would he sign up?
People can't be protected 100%.. This suggestion is about as safe as it comes.. If you can't read/understand what the game tells you, there's nothing that's safe for you

When you enter Cyrodiil as a level 10 newb. You know youre walking into a fight. And even then there are buffers to prevent you from immediately becoming an easy target. Alliance Home Bases, Wayshrines between them, and Transitus Shrines between Keeps. So even when you sign up for PvP in the PvP centric zone. You are being protected to an extent. Youre even given quests to give you a run down of what to expect and how to play in Cyrodiil.

In this proposed system. You'd be protected as long as you press No. After that, regardless of how little or how much you understand of the system. You're free game.

When people think of Justice System PvP they probably instantly think of two or more equally experienced players working against each other. One running and avoiding and the other hunting them down in some sort of digital Dog the Bounty Hunter style gameplay. But that will rarely if ever happen. The vast majority of players participating in this will fall into three camps.
Exploiters - Will team up with each other and game the system so that they can take turns utilizing the system in a way that ZOS did not originally intend. This will be the most prevalent as itll be the easiest way to gain from the system.

Newb Hunters - Will park themselves in areas that will see a good bit of traffic from new players and will likely see new players running around with the Justice System shineys. Theyll likely avoid targeting anyone that has enough CP and good gear to defend themselves and solely target anyone that cant. Fun for the Bounty Hunter.....Not at all for those who are still learning the ins and out of the game.

Fair Player - These are players that will likely try it out and at the very least try to use it in the way they feel ZOS would approve of. But will almost never get to use it since experienced players will avoid being targets and newbs will be dead before they can lay a blade on them.

This is not Cyrodill, and therefore can't be protected as much, and neither do I think it needs to.. Your protection here, is your ability to read.. As long as the prompt explains the system, and consequences, properly, it'll be fine.. And yes, if you accept the prompt, you are fair game.. But again, this is only his suggestion, so maybe this system would come with it's own intro quests

Newb Hunters: I don't see how what you say, differs that much from Cyrodill, as that can easily happen there too.. Being targeted by a group of more experienced, better geared players, is not new

White wabbit · October 2016

Here's a suggestion make these high value items only obtainable in croydil so in a PvP zone

AndyTGD · October 2016

Katahdin wrote: »

hingarthuub17_ESO wrote: »

XDragonDoomX wrote: »

No.
If I want pvp, I go to Cyrodiil. I don't want to be railroaded into PvP - The Thieves Guild has daily quests, not even the scouting quests in Cyro force you into PvP if you accept one.

Seconded. I wish there was a way of just ignoring these types of threads.

You cant ignore them. If you dont speak up, we will have all PvE zones turned into all PvP zones with no choice whatsoever

But.... you are doing a fantastic job of ignoring threads. Because you've ignored literally everything I've said, assembled a huge straw-man and set fire to it. What is it with this knee-jerk reaction of "ARGGGHH!! NO FORCED PVP IN PVE AREAS!! FORCE AGHHH!!!"? lol

Korah_Eaglecry · October 2016

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

We all know the Bounty Hunters wont target anyone that looks as if they can hold their own.

But if said person can not hold his own in a fight, why would he sign up?
People can't be protected 100%.. This suggestion is about as safe as it comes.. If you can't read/understand what the game tells you, there's nothing that's safe for you

When you enter Cyrodiil as a level 10 newb. You know youre walking into a fight. And even then there are buffers to prevent you from immediately becoming an easy target. Alliance Home Bases, Wayshrines between them, and Transitus Shrines between Keeps. So even when you sign up for PvP in the PvP centric zone. You are being protected to an extent. Youre even given quests to give you a run down of what to expect and how to play in Cyrodiil.

In this proposed system. You'd be protected as long as you press No. After that, regardless of how little or how much you understand of the system. You're free game.

When people think of Justice System PvP they probably instantly think of two or more equally experienced players working against each other. One running and avoiding and the other hunting them down in some sort of digital Dog the Bounty Hunter style gameplay. But that will rarely if ever happen. The vast majority of players participating in this will fall into three camps.
Exploiters - Will team up with each other and game the system so that they can take turns utilizing the system in a way that ZOS did not originally intend. This will be the most prevalent as itll be the easiest way to gain from the system.

Newb Hunters - Will park themselves in areas that will see a good bit of traffic from new players and will likely see new players running around with the Justice System shineys. Theyll likely avoid targeting anyone that has enough CP and good gear to defend themselves and solely target anyone that cant. Fun for the Bounty Hunter.....Not at all for those who are still learning the ins and out of the game.

Fair Player - These are players that will likely try it out and at the very least try to use it in the way they feel ZOS would approve of. But will almost never get to use it since experienced players will avoid being targets and newbs will be dead before they can lay a blade on them.

This is not Cyrodill, and therefore can't be protected as much, and neither do I think it needs to.. Your protection here, is your ability to read.. As long as the prompt explains the system, and consequences, properly, it'll be fine.. And yes, if you accept the prompt, you are fair game.. But again, this is only his suggestion, so maybe this system would come with it's own intro quests

Newb Hunters: I don't see how what you say, differs that much from Cyrodill, as that can easily happen there too.. Being targeted by a group of more experienced, better geared players, is not new

So let me get this straight. Youre okay with the zone that is specifically for PvP to have protections to protect players from being taken advantage of and exploited. But not okay with protections for a zone meant specifically for PvE?

How blatantly obvious can you griefers be?

White wabbit · October 2016

So when Pvers moaned about being ganked in croydil they had to put up with it as it's a PvP zone , well you step into a Pve zone well Pve then and stop moaning

Daemons_Bane · October 2016

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

We all know the Bounty Hunters wont target anyone that looks as if they can hold their own.

But if said person can not hold his own in a fight, why would he sign up?
People can't be protected 100%.. This suggestion is about as safe as it comes.. If you can't read/understand what the game tells you, there's nothing that's safe for you

When you enter Cyrodiil as a level 10 newb. You know youre walking into a fight. And even then there are buffers to prevent you from immediately becoming an easy target. Alliance Home Bases, Wayshrines between them, and Transitus Shrines between Keeps. So even when you sign up for PvP in the PvP centric zone. You are being protected to an extent. Youre even given quests to give you a run down of what to expect and how to play in Cyrodiil.

In this proposed system. You'd be protected as long as you press No. After that, regardless of how little or how much you understand of the system. You're free game.

When people think of Justice System PvP they probably instantly think of two or more equally experienced players working against each other. One running and avoiding and the other hunting them down in some sort of digital Dog the Bounty Hunter style gameplay. But that will rarely if ever happen. The vast majority of players participating in this will fall into three camps.
Exploiters - Will team up with each other and game the system so that they can take turns utilizing the system in a way that ZOS did not originally intend. This will be the most prevalent as itll be the easiest way to gain from the system.

Newb Hunters - Will park themselves in areas that will see a good bit of traffic from new players and will likely see new players running around with the Justice System shineys. Theyll likely avoid targeting anyone that has enough CP and good gear to defend themselves and solely target anyone that cant. Fun for the Bounty Hunter.....Not at all for those who are still learning the ins and out of the game.

Fair Player - These are players that will likely try it out and at the very least try to use it in the way they feel ZOS would approve of. But will almost never get to use it since experienced players will avoid being targets and newbs will be dead before they can lay a blade on them.

This is not Cyrodill, and therefore can't be protected as much, and neither do I think it needs to.. Your protection here, is your ability to read.. As long as the prompt explains the system, and consequences, properly, it'll be fine.. And yes, if you accept the prompt, you are fair game.. But again, this is only his suggestion, so maybe this system would come with it's own intro quests

Newb Hunters: I don't see how what you say, differs that much from Cyrodill, as that can easily happen there too.. Being targeted by a group of more experienced, better geared players, is not new

So let me get this straight. Youre okay with the zone that is specifically for PvP to have protections to protect players from being taken advantage of and exploited. But not okay with protections for a zone meant specifically for PvE?

How blatantly obvious can you griefers be?

Ehm... You don't spend much time in these justice system threads do you? I'm a PvE player through and through, and have spoken out against these systems time and again.. But at the same time I won't be against this system if it get's done properly.. And this system that he proposes is getting close to a really decent basis for a "PvP meets PvE" justice system.. I never said it was perfect, but it's one of the best suggestions so far, seeing that it incorporates the one thing that seems to be asked for again and again.. 100% voluntary choices

AndyTGD · October 2016

Tandor wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Theres always someone that thinks theyre smarter than everyone else and has come up with some brilliant solution to the PvP Justice System problem. Or think everyone else is idiots and wont notice the blatantly flawed and exploitative nature of the solution.

Justice System PvP will not be a thing as long as it backs PvEers into a corner and removes their autonomy.

That's the thing though With this proposal, you enter it voluntarily.. No back to the wall

Volunteer for content that is masqurading as PvE while being a Gank-Fest. The only people who will benefit from this or any other PvP Justice System will be the griefers.

I'm not sure I see it the same way.. The previously suggested systems where a bounty could auto-enable PvP justice was indeed bad.. But here you grab a specific item and get an information prompt, telling you that this will be PvP if you continue.. To me, that equals going into Cyrodill.. If you say yes (like walking into Cyrodill), you say yes to PvP.. Then you should know what you sign up for.. You can freely walk away.. But if you go on, you have freely signed up for the whole experience

That's fine, in PvP zones. However, do most PvEers want such prompts occurring all over the place in the open world zones that are intended to be "safe areas" in the words of ZOS? As a PvEer I want to be able to steal stuff in PvE areas without wondering whether I'm going to get a PvP prompt or not, and without being denied access to the top tier of PvE content because I don't want to PvP. Why, in a PvE area, should the high-value proceeds from thieving only be available to PvPers?

If the proposal is to add a new tier to the PvE Justice System that introduces PvP to it, then let that be fully voluntary so that those who want to run that content as PvE can do so and those who want to run it as a sort of compromise dueling/Justice exercise in PvP can do so. That way it can certainly offer a new twist on dueling for those who want it, and can also bring an element of PvP into the Justice System without anyone being forced to choose between accepting PvP or avoiding the special thieving loot. All it needs is a simple toggle to enable/disable the system with the toggle incapable of being switched for a fixed time period after a high-value item has been taken.

Good points, but at the minute in the 'safe zones' which are not Cyrodiil, we're already getting prompted constantly by folks wanting to PvP (i.e. duelling). Of course, it would be reasonable to have a way of stopping future pop-ups, merely having the indication in the UI that the item is a quest trigger. I also don't see the problem with things of greater difficulty giving greater rewards (for example, dungeons vs general questing). The reward isn't really based on the fact that its PvP per se, but rather that it is risky and difficult. Of course, it needn't be huge sums of gold, it could be anything of value like a new motif, say.

Korah_Eaglecry · October 2016

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

We all know the Bounty Hunters wont target anyone that looks as if they can hold their own.

But if said person can not hold his own in a fight, why would he sign up?
People can't be protected 100%.. This suggestion is about as safe as it comes.. If you can't read/understand what the game tells you, there's nothing that's safe for you

When you enter Cyrodiil as a level 10 newb. You know youre walking into a fight. And even then there are buffers to prevent you from immediately becoming an easy target. Alliance Home Bases, Wayshrines between them, and Transitus Shrines between Keeps. So even when you sign up for PvP in the PvP centric zone. You are being protected to an extent. Youre even given quests to give you a run down of what to expect and how to play in Cyrodiil.

In this proposed system. You'd be protected as long as you press No. After that, regardless of how little or how much you understand of the system. You're free game.

When people think of Justice System PvP they probably instantly think of two or more equally experienced players working against each other. One running and avoiding and the other hunting them down in some sort of digital Dog the Bounty Hunter style gameplay. But that will rarely if ever happen. The vast majority of players participating in this will fall into three camps.
Exploiters - Will team up with each other and game the system so that they can take turns utilizing the system in a way that ZOS did not originally intend. This will be the most prevalent as itll be the easiest way to gain from the system.

Newb Hunters - Will park themselves in areas that will see a good bit of traffic from new players and will likely see new players running around with the Justice System shineys. Theyll likely avoid targeting anyone that has enough CP and good gear to defend themselves and solely target anyone that cant. Fun for the Bounty Hunter.....Not at all for those who are still learning the ins and out of the game.

Fair Player - These are players that will likely try it out and at the very least try to use it in the way they feel ZOS would approve of. But will almost never get to use it since experienced players will avoid being targets and newbs will be dead before they can lay a blade on them.

This is not Cyrodill, and therefore can't be protected as much, and neither do I think it needs to.. Your protection here, is your ability to read.. As long as the prompt explains the system, and consequences, properly, it'll be fine.. And yes, if you accept the prompt, you are fair game.. But again, this is only his suggestion, so maybe this system would come with it's own intro quests

Newb Hunters: I don't see how what you say, differs that much from Cyrodill, as that can easily happen there too.. Being targeted by a group of more experienced, better geared players, is not new

So let me get this straight. Youre okay with the zone that is specifically for PvP to have protections to protect players from being taken advantage of and exploited. But not okay with protections for a zone meant specifically for PvE?

How blatantly obvious can you griefers be?

Ehm... You don't spend much time in these justice system threads do you? I'm a PvE player through and through, and have spoken out against these systems time and again.. But at the same time I won't be against this system if it get's done properly.. And this system that he proposes is getting close to a really decent basis for a "PvP meets PvE" justice system.. I never said it was perfect, but it's one of the best suggestions so far, seeing that it incorporates the one thing that seems to be asked for again and again.. 100% voluntary choices

Oh Im so sorry for not following you specifically thread to thread and taking notes on your opinions. I'll make sure to pull out my handy dandy ESO Forum notebook and write your position on the matter down.

This isnt about voluntary choices. This is about a subsection of the community that doesnt intend on using the system the way they speak of and propose. Its for them exploit and take advantage of. If you were SOOO strongly against this sort of thing as you say and have spent enough time in these sort of threads. Youd have a pretty solid understanding that any Justice System PvP implemented will not play out the way its intended. A newb at least has the chance to survive and even enjoy his experience in Cyrodiil. That wont be the norm in a Justice System PvP.

Tandor · October 2016

AndyTGD wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Theres always someone that thinks theyre smarter than everyone else and has come up with some brilliant solution to the PvP Justice System problem. Or think everyone else is idiots and wont notice the blatantly flawed and exploitative nature of the solution.

Justice System PvP will not be a thing as long as it backs PvEers into a corner and removes their autonomy.

That's the thing though With this proposal, you enter it voluntarily.. No back to the wall

Volunteer for content that is masqurading as PvE while being a Gank-Fest. The only people who will benefit from this or any other PvP Justice System will be the griefers.

I'm not sure I see it the same way.. The previously suggested systems where a bounty could auto-enable PvP justice was indeed bad.. But here you grab a specific item and get an information prompt, telling you that this will be PvP if you continue.. To me, that equals going into Cyrodill.. If you say yes (like walking into Cyrodill), you say yes to PvP.. Then you should know what you sign up for.. You can freely walk away.. But if you go on, you have freely signed up for the whole experience

That's fine, in PvP zones. However, do most PvEers want such prompts occurring all over the place in the open world zones that are intended to be "safe areas" in the words of ZOS? As a PvEer I want to be able to steal stuff in PvE areas without wondering whether I'm going to get a PvP prompt or not, and without being denied access to the top tier of PvE content because I don't want to PvP. Why, in a PvE area, should the high-value proceeds from thieving only be available to PvPers?

If the proposal is to add a new tier to the PvE Justice System that introduces PvP to it, then let that be fully voluntary so that those who want to run that content as PvE can do so and those who want to run it as a sort of compromise dueling/Justice exercise in PvP can do so. That way it can certainly offer a new twist on dueling for those who want it, and can also bring an element of PvP into the Justice System without anyone being forced to choose between accepting PvP or avoiding the special thieving loot. All it needs is a simple toggle to enable/disable the system with the toggle incapable of being switched for a fixed time period after a high-value item has been taken.

Good points, but at the minute in the 'safe zones' which are not Cyrodiil, we're already getting prompted constantly by folks wanting to PvP (i.e. duelling). Of course, it would be reasonable to have a way of stopping future pop-ups, merely having the indication in the UI that the item is a quest trigger. I also don't see the problem with things of greater difficulty giving greater rewards (for example, dungeons vs general questing). The reward isn't really based on the fact that its PvP per se, but rather that it is risky and difficult. Of course, it needn't be huge sums of gold, it could be anything of value like a new motif, say.

So how can it be obtained then other than through PvP?

A new motif? Sounds suspiciously like "PvP to win"

!

I don't have a problem with greater risk for greater rewards, but I do have a problem with the greater rewards for PvE content in a PvE zone only being available through PvP. However, if you accept my suggestion for this to be truly voluntary through a toggle switch then it isn't a problem - do you accept that suggestion?

AndyTGD · October 2016

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

We all know the Bounty Hunters wont target anyone that looks as if they can hold their own.

But if said person can not hold his own in a fight, why would he sign up?
People can't be protected 100%.. This suggestion is about as safe as it comes.. If you can't read/understand what the game tells you, there's nothing that's safe for you

When you enter Cyrodiil as a level 10 newb. You know youre walking into a fight. And even then there are buffers to prevent you from immediately becoming an easy target. Alliance Home Bases, Wayshrines between them, and Transitus Shrines between Keeps. So even when you sign up for PvP in the PvP centric zone. You are being protected to an extent. Youre even given quests to give you a run down of what to expect and how to play in Cyrodiil.

In this proposed system. Youd be protected as long as you press No. After that, regardless of how little or how much you understand of the system. Youre free game.

When people think of Justice System PvP they probably instantly think of two or more equally experienced players working against each other. One running and avoiding and the other hunting them down in some sort of digital Dog the Bounty Hunter style gameplay. But that will rarely if ever happen. The vast majority of players participating in this will fall into three camps.
Exploiters - Will team up with each other and game the system so that they can take turns utilizing the system in a way that ZOS did not originally intend. This will be the most prevalent as itll be the easiest way to gain from the system.

Newb Hunters - Will park themselves in areas that will see a good bit of traffic from new players and will likely see new players running around with the Justice System shineys. Theyll likely avoid targeting anyone that has enough CP and good gear to defend themselves and solely target anyone that cant. Fun for the Bounty Hunter.....Not at all for those who are still learning the ins and out of the game.

Fair Player - These are players that will likely try it out and at the very least try to use it in the way they feel ZOS would approve of. But will almost never get to use it since experienced players will avoid being targets and newbs will be dead before they can lay a blade on them.

Bearing in mind, that I proposed a system where you merely had to survive for 10 minutes max and then you can chalk any misadventures up to a mistake. With a prompt your first time which adequately explains everything to the gamer. I don't know what else you'd want, short of wrapping folks up in cotton wool. NewB hunters might get a few folks who didn't read the instructions, but in the grand scheme of things the majority of people who stick with such a system will be people who like this way of doing things and enjoy the gameplay. If you're constantly getting ganked, you're simply not going to keep doing it. I don't keep doing Imperial City for this very reason.

AndyTGD · October 2016

Tandor wrote: »

AndyTGD wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Theres always someone that thinks theyre smarter than everyone else and has come up with some brilliant solution to the PvP Justice System problem. Or think everyone else is idiots and wont notice the blatantly flawed and exploitative nature of the solution.

Justice System PvP will not be a thing as long as it backs PvEers into a corner and removes their autonomy.

That's the thing though With this proposal, you enter it voluntarily.. No back to the wall

Volunteer for content that is masqurading as PvE while being a Gank-Fest. The only people who will benefit from this or any other PvP Justice System will be the griefers.

I'm not sure I see it the same way.. The previously suggested systems where a bounty could auto-enable PvP justice was indeed bad.. But here you grab a specific item and get an information prompt, telling you that this will be PvP if you continue.. To me, that equals going into Cyrodill.. If you say yes (like walking into Cyrodill), you say yes to PvP.. Then you should know what you sign up for.. You can freely walk away.. But if you go on, you have freely signed up for the whole experience

That's fine, in PvP zones. However, do most PvEers want such prompts occurring all over the place in the open world zones that are intended to be "safe areas" in the words of ZOS? As a PvEer I want to be able to steal stuff in PvE areas without wondering whether I'm going to get a PvP prompt or not, and without being denied access to the top tier of PvE content because I don't want to PvP. Why, in a PvE area, should the high-value proceeds from thieving only be available to PvPers?

If the proposal is to add a new tier to the PvE Justice System that introduces PvP to it, then let that be fully voluntary so that those who want to run that content as PvE can do so and those who want to run it as a sort of compromise dueling/Justice exercise in PvP can do so. That way it can certainly offer a new twist on dueling for those who want it, and can also bring an element of PvP into the Justice System without anyone being forced to choose between accepting PvP or avoiding the special thieving loot. All it needs is a simple toggle to enable/disable the system with the toggle incapable of being switched for a fixed time period after a high-value item has been taken.

Good points, but at the minute in the 'safe zones' which are not Cyrodiil, we're already getting prompted constantly by folks wanting to PvP (i.e. duelling). Of course, it would be reasonable to have a way of stopping future pop-ups, merely having the indication in the UI that the item is a quest trigger. I also don't see the problem with things of greater difficulty giving greater rewards (for example, dungeons vs general questing). The reward isn't really based on the fact that its PvP per se, but rather that it is risky and difficult. Of course, it needn't be huge sums of gold, it could be anything of value like a new motif, say.

So how can it be obtained then other than through PvP?

A new motif? Sounds suspiciously like "PvP to win" !

I don't have a problem with greater risk for greater rewards, but I do have a problem with the greater rewards for PvE content in a PvE zone only being available through PvP. However, if you accept my suggestion for this to be truly voluntary through a toggle switch then it isn't a problem - do you accept that suggestion?

I can't get the emperor's regalia without PvPing. Heck, a tiny proportion of people who do PvP don't even get that - does that mean its "PvP to win"? I demand ZOS give me the Emperor's regalia by PVEing. hehe The problem is this strict artificial divide between PvE zones and PvP zones, which my proposal would largely do away with. That's what this entire argument is about, it seems. And I don't see a problem with limited application of PvP in primarily PvE areas, so long as it is accompanied with safeguards and is reasonable.

Regarding the toggle switch, I think a toggle to stop additional pop-ups for people who have read it is very reasonable. If the item is highlighted in the UI clearly enough, the pop-up really isn't necessary in the long run. If you mean 'put an optional toggle which hides PvP trigger items', again it seems reasonable to me, like the toggles we have at the minute to prevent people from getting accidental bounties.

AndyTGD · October 2016

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

We all know the Bounty Hunters wont target anyone that looks as if they can hold their own.

But if said person can not hold his own in a fight, why would he sign up?
People can't be protected 100%.. This suggestion is about as safe as it comes.. If you can't read/understand what the game tells you, there's nothing that's safe for you

When you enter Cyrodiil as a level 10 newb. You know youre walking into a fight. And even then there are buffers to prevent you from immediately becoming an easy target. Alliance Home Bases, Wayshrines between them, and Transitus Shrines between Keeps. So even when you sign up for PvP in the PvP centric zone. You are being protected to an extent. Youre even given quests to give you a run down of what to expect and how to play in Cyrodiil.

In this proposed system. You'd be protected as long as you press No. After that, regardless of how little or how much you understand of the system. You're free game.

When people think of Justice System PvP they probably instantly think of two or more equally experienced players working against each other. One running and avoiding and the other hunting them down in some sort of digital Dog the Bounty Hunter style gameplay. But that will rarely if ever happen. The vast majority of players participating in this will fall into three camps.
Exploiters - Will team up with each other and game the system so that they can take turns utilizing the system in a way that ZOS did not originally intend. This will be the most prevalent as itll be the easiest way to gain from the system.

Newb Hunters - Will park themselves in areas that will see a good bit of traffic from new players and will likely see new players running around with the Justice System shineys. Theyll likely avoid targeting anyone that has enough CP and good gear to defend themselves and solely target anyone that cant. Fun for the Bounty Hunter.....Not at all for those who are still learning the ins and out of the game.

Fair Player - These are players that will likely try it out and at the very least try to use it in the way they feel ZOS would approve of. But will almost never get to use it since experienced players will avoid being targets and newbs will be dead before they can lay a blade on them.

This is not Cyrodill, and therefore can't be protected as much, and neither do I think it needs to.. Your protection here, is your ability to read.. As long as the prompt explains the system, and consequences, properly, it'll be fine.. And yes, if you accept the prompt, you are fair game.. But again, this is only his suggestion, so maybe this system would come with it's own intro quests

Newb Hunters: I don't see how what you say, differs that much from Cyrodill, as that can easily happen there too.. Being targeted by a group of more experienced, better geared players, is not new

So let me get this straight. Youre okay with the zone that is specifically for PvP to have protections to protect players from being taken advantage of and exploited. But not okay with protections for a zone meant specifically for PvE?

How blatantly obvious can you griefers be?

Ehm... You don't spend much time in these justice system threads do you? I'm a PvE player through and through, and have spoken out against these systems time and again.. But at the same time I won't be against this system if it get's done properly.. And this system that he proposes is getting close to a really decent basis for a "PvP meets PvE" justice system.. I never said it was perfect, but it's one of the best suggestions so far, seeing that it incorporates the one thing that seems to be asked for again and again.. 100% voluntary choices

Oh Im so sorry for not following you specifically thread to thread and taking notes on your opinions. I'll make sure to pull out my handy dandy ESO Forum notebook and write your position on the matter down.

This isnt about voluntary choices. This is about a subsection of the community that doesnt intend on using the system the way they speak of and propose. Its for them exploit and take advantage of. If you were SOOO strongly against this sort of thing as you say and have spent enough time in these sort of threads. Youd have a pretty solid understanding that any Justice System PvP implemented will not play out the way its intended. A newb at least has the chance to survive and even enjoy his experience in Cyrodiil. That wont be the norm in a Justice System PvP.

Oh yes Korah_Eaglecry, because we're all just a bunch of griefers who want to ruin your day and troll and gank with absolute freedom. Which is precisely why I previously wrote witheringly harsh critiques of ArcheAge's ridiculous 'justice system' and have attempted to lay out a fair compromise here which attempts to avoid the excesses of both pro PvE and PvP justice groups. But why respond to what I've actually said, when its easier to project what you think I ought to say?

Daemons_Bane · October 2016

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

We all know the Bounty Hunters wont target anyone that looks as if they can hold their own.

But if said person can not hold his own in a fight, why would he sign up?
People can't be protected 100%.. This suggestion is about as safe as it comes.. If you can't read/understand what the game tells you, there's nothing that's safe for you

When you enter Cyrodiil as a level 10 newb. You know youre walking into a fight. And even then there are buffers to prevent you from immediately becoming an easy target. Alliance Home Bases, Wayshrines between them, and Transitus Shrines between Keeps. So even when you sign up for PvP in the PvP centric zone. You are being protected to an extent. Youre even given quests to give you a run down of what to expect and how to play in Cyrodiil.

In this proposed system. You'd be protected as long as you press No. After that, regardless of how little or how much you understand of the system. You're free game.

When people think of Justice System PvP they probably instantly think of two or more equally experienced players working against each other. One running and avoiding and the other hunting them down in some sort of digital Dog the Bounty Hunter style gameplay. But that will rarely if ever happen. The vast majority of players participating in this will fall into three camps.
Exploiters - Will team up with each other and game the system so that they can take turns utilizing the system in a way that ZOS did not originally intend. This will be the most prevalent as itll be the easiest way to gain from the system.

Newb Hunters - Will park themselves in areas that will see a good bit of traffic from new players and will likely see new players running around with the Justice System shineys. Theyll likely avoid targeting anyone that has enough CP and good gear to defend themselves and solely target anyone that cant. Fun for the Bounty Hunter.....Not at all for those who are still learning the ins and out of the game.

Fair Player - These are players that will likely try it out and at the very least try to use it in the way they feel ZOS would approve of. But will almost never get to use it since experienced players will avoid being targets and newbs will be dead before they can lay a blade on them.

This is not Cyrodill, and therefore can't be protected as much, and neither do I think it needs to.. Your protection here, is your ability to read.. As long as the prompt explains the system, and consequences, properly, it'll be fine.. And yes, if you accept the prompt, you are fair game.. But again, this is only his suggestion, so maybe this system would come with it's own intro quests

Newb Hunters: I don't see how what you say, differs that much from Cyrodill, as that can easily happen there too.. Being targeted by a group of more experienced, better geared players, is not new

So let me get this straight. Youre okay with the zone that is specifically for PvP to have protections to protect players from being taken advantage of and exploited. But not okay with protections for a zone meant specifically for PvE?

How blatantly obvious can you griefers be?

Ehm... You don't spend much time in these justice system threads do you? I'm a PvE player through and through, and have spoken out against these systems time and again.. But at the same time I won't be against this system if it get's done properly.. And this system that he proposes is getting close to a really decent basis for a "PvP meets PvE" justice system.. I never said it was perfect, but it's one of the best suggestions so far, seeing that it incorporates the one thing that seems to be asked for again and again.. 100% voluntary choices

Oh Im so sorry for not following you specifically thread to thread and taking notes on your opinions. I'll make sure to pull out my handy dandy ESO Forum notebook and write your position on the matter down.

This isnt about voluntary choices. This is about a subsection of the community that doesnt intend on using the system the way they speak of and propose. Its for them exploit and take advantage of. If you were SOOO strongly against this sort of thing as you say and have spent enough time in these sort of threads. Youd have a pretty solid understanding that any Justice System PvP implemented will not play out the way its intended. A newb at least has the chance to survive and even enjoy his experience in Cyrodiil. That wont be the norm in a Justice System PvP.

So I see that I am right

I have no thread on this pal.. And you misread my intentions it seems.. I am not, and will probably not be, against this, even as a PvE player.. What I am against, is being FORCED into this.. And OP is not trying to force anyone to do this.. And yes I have a fair understanding of this system, just as most people that cares do.. And you seem to ignore that I said that I knew the system was not perfect.. If you had even read the beginning of the thread, I also spoke out against some of it.. But I also defend it, since he has a good basis concept, that I feel could work with some adjustments.. The reason that I speak out against you is because I think you want too much protection in this case

Khenarthi · October 2016

I actually like your idea if the opt-in items are clearly marked as such before my character touches them. Then I can just avoid them and continue my pve thieving in peace. But I'm guessing most people who oppose pvp-in-pve (like me) would do the same... and enforcing would become a boring wait for those who wish to pursue miscreants.

Daemons_Bane · October 2016

Khenarthi wrote: »

I actually like your idea if the opt-in items are clearly marked as such before my character touches them. Then I can just avoid them and continue my pve thieving in peace. But I'm guessing most people who oppose pvp-in-pve (like me) would do the same... and enforcing would become a boring wait for those who wish to pursue miscreants.

Well spoken

The joker here being whether people would sign up or not.. Unfortunately, we have no reliable way of knowing

idk · October 2016

No

Bryanonymous · October 2016

Just advocate for an on/off pvp switch already...

White wabbit · October 2016

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Just advocate for an on/off pvp switch already...[/quote
Fine but it would only be fair that it covers both Pve/PvP areas then

Daemons_Bane · October 2016

Bryanonymous wrote: »

Just advocate for an on/off pvp switch already...

That's what many of us hopes for already actually

a switch that allows us to enable or disable the system.. That way, we can do what we are in the mood for..

KaleidoscopeEyz · October 2016

That's what many of us hopes for already actually a switch that allows us to enable or disable the system.. That way, we can do what we are in the mood for..

It's gotta work both ways. If I disable it, I should be able to go to Cyrodil to collect my skyshards, fish and complete delves without getting ganked.

Tandor · October 2016

AndyTGD wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

AndyTGD wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Daemons_Bane wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

Theres always someone that thinks theyre smarter than everyone else and has come up with some brilliant solution to the PvP Justice System problem. Or think everyone else is idiots and wont notice the blatantly flawed and exploitative nature of the solution.

Justice System PvP will not be a thing as long as it backs PvEers into a corner and removes their autonomy.

That's the thing though With this proposal, you enter it voluntarily.. No back to the wall

Volunteer for content that is masqurading as PvE while being a Gank-Fest. The only people who will benefit from this or any other PvP Justice System will be the griefers.

I'm not sure I see it the same way.. The previously suggested systems where a bounty could auto-enable PvP justice was indeed bad.. But here you grab a specific item and get an information prompt, telling you that this will be PvP if you continue.. To me, that equals going into Cyrodill.. If you say yes (like walking into Cyrodill), you say yes to PvP.. Then you should know what you sign up for.. You can freely walk away.. But if you go on, you have freely signed up for the whole experience

That's fine, in PvP zones. However, do most PvEers want such prompts occurring all over the place in the open world zones that are intended to be "safe areas" in the words of ZOS? As a PvEer I want to be able to steal stuff in PvE areas without wondering whether I'm going to get a PvP prompt or not, and without being denied access to the top tier of PvE content because I don't want to PvP. Why, in a PvE area, should the high-value proceeds from thieving only be available to PvPers?

If the proposal is to add a new tier to the PvE Justice System that introduces PvP to it, then let that be fully voluntary so that those who want to run that content as PvE can do so and those who want to run it as a sort of compromise dueling/Justice exercise in PvP can do so. That way it can certainly offer a new twist on dueling for those who want it, and can also bring an element of PvP into the Justice System without anyone being forced to choose between accepting PvP or avoiding the special thieving loot. All it needs is a simple toggle to enable/disable the system with the toggle incapable of being switched for a fixed time period after a high-value item has been taken.

Good points, but at the minute in the 'safe zones' which are not Cyrodiil, we're already getting prompted constantly by folks wanting to PvP (i.e. duelling). Of course, it would be reasonable to have a way of stopping future pop-ups, merely having the indication in the UI that the item is a quest trigger. I also don't see the problem with things of greater difficulty giving greater rewards (for example, dungeons vs general questing). The reward isn't really based on the fact that its PvP per se, but rather that it is risky and difficult. Of course, it needn't be huge sums of gold, it could be anything of value like a new motif, say.

So how can it be obtained then other than through PvP?

A new motif? Sounds suspiciously like "PvP to win" !

I don't have a problem with greater risk for greater rewards, but I do have a problem with the greater rewards for PvE content in a PvE zone only being available through PvP. However, if you accept my suggestion for this to be truly voluntary through a toggle switch then it isn't a problem - do you accept that suggestion?

I can't get the emperor's regalia without PvPing. Heck, a tiny proportion of people who do PvP don't even get that - does that mean its "PvP to win"? I demand ZOS give me the Emperor's regalia by PVEing. hehe The problem is this strict artificial divide between PvE zones and PvP zones, which my proposal would largely do away with. That's what this entire argument is about, it seems. And I don't see a problem with limited application of PvP in primarily PvE areas, so long as it is accompanied with safeguards and is reasonable.

Regarding the toggle switch, I think a toggle to stop additional pop-ups for people who have read it is very reasonable. If the item is highlighted in the UI clearly enough, the pop-up really isn't necessary in the long run. If you mean 'put an optional toggle which hides PvP trigger items', again it seems reasonable to me, like the toggles we have at the minute to prevent people from getting accidental bounties.

Just in case you were in any doubt, the toggle I referred to was one that would make your proposal truly voluntary. Your proposed additional content would be in, the high-value items would be there and highlighted, but it would be for the player to decide whether he wanted to participate in the PvP element of them or not. PvEers would still get additional PvE content from the Justice System while those who wanted it to trigger a PvP encounter would also get what they want from it. The risk for PvEers would perhaps arise from some extra PvE factors for those who toggle off PvP - perhaps carrying such a high-value item would extend the detection range of NPC guards, or perhaps taking such an item would trigger NPC guards hunting you down with only a limited time in which to get to a Refuge and sell or launder the item.

Potenza · October 2016

No to any type justice system.

The thieving and killings are a PvE activity. The thief is stealing from NPC characters. The murderer is killing NPC characters. Its a form of role play. Another player doesn't have the right to enforce the law - only the NPC guards do.