Florial wrote: »

You actually would be wrong about that. I'm a 544 CP player who is just learning the dungeons after a long hiatus of not dungeon running for a long time (like since launch). I've never been one for grinding. I've accumulated those CP points by questing and completed Caldwell's silver/gold on three characters. I'm a completionist and tried to do every quest available on one of my characters for the Tamriel Hero title. It was fun and those CP points slowly built up.

I've worked up the courage again to get into groups and try my best to heal them with my Templar. I know my own limitations though and have only completed two vet dungeons. I've tried a few others and our group has wiped again and again at some final bosses. Yes, my lack of healing experience may have contributed but I saw both inexperienced players and some vet players making mistakes as well. I have read up on some proper builds and would like to think that I have a working rotation. But I am inexperienced and do make mistakes. Sometimes seeing a fight for the first time is better than dozens of YouTube videos.

My experience has been the exact opposite: I'm playing for about a year and I've jumped in dungeons right after I've received the Undaunted invitation on my main. Started doing the silver pledges with PuGs right at level 45, and the veteran ones at 50/VR1. I'm doing them daily ever since, almost 11 months. I have been able to finish them ~98% of the time. To date I've only failed 3 VCoA gold pledges between VR2-10 due to weak DPS, a VCoS pledge 2 days after SotH launch because I got mad at not being able to do the hard mode for 2 keys and cancelled altogether (did the hard mode next day with same group after we figured out the mechanics), and a VRoM pledge 2 days ago because I actually couldn't find a group who wanted to run it - spammed 4 guild and 3 capital zone and Craglorn chat and nobody would come. Within 5 months of running the veteran dungeons I had every achievement, including the no death ones - hardest to get was VCoH (now CoH II) because of the penultimate boss that sucks everybody up. Also VICP was pretty hard to get because all the RNG and bugs (hoarvors, harvesters, machine-gun boss attack, single portal). ATM I'm only missing the ICP stealth achievement from IC dungeons. On SotH I'm still missing the no death achievements but I'm sure I'll get that eventually. I mostly ran the pledges with randoms people from zone chat or even GF PuGs.

At the same time I've completed every possible quest on my main, and alliance, main, fighters/mages guild as well as silver and couple of gold zones on 2 alts, and only the alliance zones on another. Deferred running more quests on alts because I heard One Tamriel was coming, with leveled zones and better rewards.

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Tank didnt taunt. I had aggro more then him. Healer didnt heal, spammed rapid regen only. And last DD', light attacked with a 1H and shield. Last thing looks like im joking, but Im not.

Haha, I've had this too. To be fair though, they were Japanese, so I don't know if they actually knew it was meant for tanking. I'm going with probably not. It didn't bother me though, we got it done just fine. We have to remember that there are new players that have nowhere to get information from as they probably don't know any English or very little. There are some that do, of course. For most of them, searching youtube or websites for answers/knowledge isn't going to be helpful until their communities have had time with the game.

Wolfchild07 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Tank didnt taunt. I had aggro more then him. Healer didnt heal, spammed rapid regen only. And last DD', light attacked with a 1H and shield. Last thing looks like im joking, but Im not.

Haha, I've had this too. To be fair though, they were Japanese, so I don't know if they actually knew it was meant for tanking. I'm going with probably not. It didn't bother me though, we got it done just fine. We have to remember that there are new players that have nowhere to get information from as they probably don't know any English or very little. There are some that do, of course. For most of them, searching youtube or websites for answers/knowledge isn't going to be helpful until their communities have had time with the game.

I'm guessing he was stam dps? I love snb for my mage. Not top DPS for sure, but depending on the group or solo it is a great setup.

darthsithis wrote: »

The 531's you are talking about, I have noticed to be obstinate and leary of any advice to their build...

for example I might say "try putting force pulse on your destro staff to close the portals, it's a lot easier than using impulse. You need to close them fast and the range helps. " They however just get mad a lot of the time and say wgt is too hard and that they like crystal frags on their back bar (which it rarely procs on).

I enjoy playing with a group of cp300's who want to learn the mechanics much much more than the types of 531's who do not even have the willingness or capacity to achieve success.

The 531's and I that play together had stormproof by 350. It's about how much you care about learning and perfecting your abilities as a player!

I am not that great with builds, so I level every skill on my characters for this very purpose. I take all advise given too me when going into a raid. I am not above telling people, that this is where I fail in a MMO. I read a lot on the forums as well for advice. I get what your saying. People think they know what their doing, at least I can admit I dont in High End Content.

As one of the players that needs helped along right now, I really enjoy when players just ask up front if the party knows the mechanics or I just say, hey I don't know the mechanics can you please explain. If they are unwilling too, I generally just leave so I am not a hinderance but that has happened like twice out of my dozen or so runs.

I big shout out to all the players who explain mechanics to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Asardes wrote: »

Well

Arora wrote: »

darthsithis wrote: »

The 531's you are talking about, I have noticed to be obstinate and leary of any advice to their build...

for example I might say "try putting force pulse on your destro staff to close the portals, it's a lot easier than using impulse. You need to close them fast and the range helps. " They however just get mad a lot of the time and say wgt is too hard and that they like crystal frags on their back bar (which it rarely procs on).

I enjoy playing with a group of cp300's who want to learn the mechanics much much more than the types of 531's who do not even have the willingness or capacity to achieve success.

The 531's and I that play together had stormproof by 350. It's about how much you care about learning and perfecting your abilities as a player!

I am not that great with builds, so I level every skill on my characters for this very purpose. I take all advise given too me when going into a raid. I am not above telling people, that this is where I fail in a MMO. I read a lot on the forums as well for advice. I get what your saying. People think they know what their doing, at least I can admit I dont in High End Content.

Well, if you are a support role, healer or tank, not using certain skills can lead to group failure. As I detailed above, not using shards is very detrimental for stamina DPS sustain. Also a tank that doesn't use CC and even run some group buffs (ingenous weapons, aggressive warhorn) is a semi-failed one.

Kinda agree, kinda don't. PUGs = you should have your own sustain. If your measurement in a PUG is someone giving you the synergy buffs without you checking if they have them or use them, then that is more of a reflection of you not talking to your group, then necessarily their fault (but yes they should have key skills, this I agree with you on).

That all said, I have been in so many PUGs where they have text chat turned off and are not in voice chat that when they don't use skills and suck, it basically makes them a huge liability.

Juhasow wrote: »

Cp is nothing skill is everything.

Try doing these vet dungeons with 160 CP and then tell me the difference. You may have all the skills and rotation but you won't be close to yourself at max CP. the CP system is not their for just aesthetic or make someone feel superior, it actually makes you perform better in terms of DPS or Heal or Tank.

So saying CP is nothing is plain BS.

However I agree that all the CP is nothing IF you don't have the skills.

kylewwefan wrote: »

First off, I PUG a lot. I see many terribad players at max level. Not just to boost my own self....I did fungal grotto vet with a player who's rotation was light attack bow, caltrops...over and over again. Or the wrecking blow spam...or stand at a distance bow light attacking never use a single ability. Full heavy armor DD's , light armor staff tanks?!?

Are everyone buying max level accounts and playing how they want? How do you get there and have no clue? I can't deal with the PUG life anymore. I tried 2 Vet HelRa PUG trials over the weekend....I'll never do that again. Not even hard mode. Just Vet. Having awesome Healers and tank still aren't getting low DPS group through.

Everyone loves to hate on the "elite" players. There's too many players out there pulling less than 10k. I just don't get it. It's so much better when I'm the only bad player in a group. My weekend of elite trials and daily's would have made a hilarious episode of "the differently geared".

I have seen the question brought up about the game being too easy. I tell you no way. Normal mode almost needs to be easier. Vet dungeons...hmmm and Hard Mode....casuals and terribads are gonna struggle and likely give up. A few really good players can carry the team, but most won't make it that far. When you see it takes 5 minutes to burn the first trash mob, just leave.

I know we're you coming from. Fact is there are not enough tools on console for players to improve their damage ( or know when it's lacking) Yet ZOS makes content with DPS checks. There are currently no combat logs or even a dummy set up to practice rotations with unlike other mmo games.
Console has come a long ways with chat & the damage #s showing up but still needs some work to measure performance if they continue to release content copy pasted from PC. Excluding most of the games players from group content is not an answer .

Eleusian wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

First off, I PUG a lot. I see many terribad players at max level. Not just to boost my own self....I did fungal grotto vet with a player who's rotation was light attack bow, caltrops...over and over again. Or the wrecking blow spam...or stand at a distance bow light attacking never use a single ability. Full heavy armor DD's , light armor staff tanks?!?

Are everyone buying max level accounts and playing how they want? How do you get there and have no clue? I can't deal with the PUG life anymore. I tried 2 Vet HelRa PUG trials over the weekend....I'll never do that again. Not even hard mode. Just Vet. Having awesome Healers and tank still aren't getting low DPS group through.

Everyone loves to hate on the "elite" players. There's too many players out there pulling less than 10k. I just don't get it. It's so much better when I'm the only bad player in a group. My weekend of elite trials and daily's would have made a hilarious episode of "the differently geared".

I have seen the question brought up about the game being too easy. I tell you no way. Normal mode almost needs to be easier. Vet dungeons...hmmm and Hard Mode....casuals and terribads are gonna struggle and likely give up. A few really good players can carry the team, but most won't make it that far. When you see it takes 5 minutes to burn the first trash mob, just leave.

I know we're you coming from. Fact is there are not enough tools on console for players to improve their damage ( or know when it's lacking) Yet ZOS makes content with DPS checks. There are currently no combat logs or even a dummy set up to practice rotations with unlike other mmo games.
Console has come a long ways with chat & the damage #s showing up but still needs some work to measure performance if they continue to release content copy pasted from PC. Excluding most of the games players from group content is not an answer .

I can agree with this.

I don't do any type of competitive "end-game" or anything. I guess my age and career have finally kicked me down into the "casual gamer" label. But every so often, even I would like to know what my DPS is. Even if it is for nothing more than to satisfy my own curiosity.

Having a metric like that available on console would be nice to have.

Rank doesn't mean much in this game. Anyone can eventually reach max level. Doesn't mean they are good or know what they are doing. Just means that you spent enough time doing enough crap to get to the max level.

This is just another issue with using cp as a measurement of player skill. It's not at all.

Max cp could be had by spending hours inside old Orsinium using one bar to grind mobs. Player skill wise, this prepares you only for grinding on trash mobs.

karldavy149b16_ESO wrote: »

Zakor wrote: »

Before 1T: PUG success chance by ~60%, depending on dungeon
Now: PUG Success chance by ~10%. Seriously, I joined 6 different groups just yesterday, had to clean up 2 screwed runs (which didn't help me since I missed a pledge boss by that) and had success with just one group. I'm not sure if the vet Content is so much harder (enemies have hell more LP but that's it...) or people with damn low DPS queue more... On the other hand I think the scaling alone is too bad for dungeons. If I see that cp60 chars do less DPS than my heal/buff DK with only talons as "damage" skill on bar...well.
Imho there should be something like a test before you are allowed to enter a dungeon in a specific role. There should be difficulty tiers to allow you queuing normal, queuing vet and queuing vetdlc (or smth similar). Additionally, if you want to run the vet dungeon, you HAVE to run the normal dungeon first to learn it's mechanics. Easy as that I think.
DPS check isn't that hard to implement, first level maybe a non moving enemy to just check damage, second level with movement and third level is movement, care for adds, cleanse that and so on. Similar for healing and tanking (I hate DPS that queue as tank... 19k LP, oneshotet by every tankmechanic, no shield an no taunt but surely a tank... )
From lore perspective it could be implemented as "undaunted training" where some of the undaunted train you in combat. Sounds awesome for me.

ive had a 100% succes rate with my pugs and thats all i do .... take volenvol yesterday .. 3 different runs i had the dps say we need to burn healer i was like ok yeah lets do it your way ... usually the dps sucked cus i (tank was kiting like a mofo that 31k hit hurts on a 29k health tank ) and they had no real uptime on the boss so after a few wipes my response should be to quit right .... HELL NO

it was hey lets do it this way healer kite red tank kite green/dps burn blue ....

sure as hell we downed them all on first time attempt sometimes players gotta see the good and the bad to make a choice ... i did have one dps quit cus he called me an overbearing tank that new nothing lol .

generally alot of good players out there if a dps refuses to change build namely bow users that do nothing but light attacks well vote to kick gets initiated .... the only issue i have is that eso need to change how pledges work to back filled players ...

i will leave a pledge group if its in progress cus i get no credit ... the pledge if im back filled should update to the groups current situation ... im 100% sure if eso rolled this out alot more pugging will happen

as for dps checks 90% of all dungeons have no dps check just mechanics checks pure and simple gimme a 10k dps who never dies over a 30k dps thats spends 50% of his time dead on the ground

Funny you talk about volen, did the same yesterday. I#M healer and I normally don't leave a group cuz someone is bad or dps is low or whatever. But if the tank isn't even able to block or dodge one damn hit from this yellow **** and dies from EVERY and I mean EVERY hit, even without scroll, then I'm out. Sure, he had only 56cp but even with that you can either block it or if you see that it hits you like a truck dodge it. Done it with a friend later that evening and, even thought he needed some healing since that one REALLY hits hard, he just stood it. Our DDs -which weren't THAT strong either- were freely able to burn those metal heads down.

Long story short: I'm usally really patient with pugs, but those groups yesterday really freaked me out.

As for esos "fill"- feature you are completly right. Why would I do that dungeon if two bosses I need are already dead and I have to start over anyway? Dungeonfinder needs a "don't fill" option to queue and some bad ass reward for helping others out (maybe an undaunted key?)

nazkec wrote: »

As one of the players that needs helped along right now, I really enjoy when players just ask up front if the party knows the mechanics or I just say, hey I don't know the mechanics can you please explain. If they are unwilling too, I generally just leave so I am not a hinderance but that has happened like twice out of my dozen or so runs.

I big shout out to all the players who explain mechanics to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I totally agree here. When people who know what to do help, it makes a world of difference. I'm always thankful when people who know what to do share with the group and help us all pass the dungeon.

I don't know what people expect. The game doesn't stress you at all, there's not learning curve for people that haven't played any or many MMOs before.