I take it you're talking with regards to pvp?

Well if you can tell me how to counter a black rose and viper 5 heavy stamina dk with shuffle, wings, and sword and board on my magblade I'm all ears

I use builds that suit my character.
Like 4 my magplar bosmer, I use magnus instead of kag because of that 8% chance to cast a free spell. That is good 4 a stamina character.

thankyourat wrote: »

Well if you can tell me how to counter a black rose and viper 5 heavy stamina dk with shuffle, wings, and sword and board on my magblade I'm all ears

Rune prison, liquid lightning, inevitable det, curse, blockade, mages wrath, elegant+infallible lightning heavy attack. For sorc
For magblade, dunno lol challenge them to a fist fight and drop bolstering darkness and punch the *** out of them?

.

Sharee wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Well if you can tell me how to counter a black rose and viper 5 heavy stamina dk with shuffle, wings, and sword and board on my magblade I'm all ears

I would just ignore him. You can port to shade and cloak, and there's nothing he can do to prevent it once detection potion duration runs out.

That's usually what I do unless I'm dueling than I pretty much know I'm going to lose before the fight starts. I was just pointing out that there is no hidden balance sometimes, and sometimes there is no way to combat the meta

Find a Templar get them to spam jesus beam, apparently it's OP. Or something.
Ah wait i got it, reroll a stam dk and have a wrecking blow-off

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

Does anyone else notice that Players seem to deduce all the sets into the game into a few. (That are worth using). Okay this is an obvious one, and this stems from the specific Races, Classes and passives etc that can be selected that are the optimal choice for doing DPS etc (whatever you are trying to do).

The "meta" gets out there and is used by all who want to make their character the "strongest". But in reality there is no strongest build and i will give you examples why -

Enemy has 11k physcial resist, you have spriggans thorns , using your regular debuffs on the enemy, lets say you debuff to 18k. you are wasting 7k pen on air.

using hundings rage for consistent dps ( your fighting is not always consistent , sometimes burst is better rather than over all time. )

Usually the builds intertwine with specific skills , leaving no room for different options when a certain skill has everything you need. You need endless hail with maelstrom bow , doesnt mean you cant have endless hail without the bow. If you are going down that route than yes thats the best option, but it isnt the best option for DPS, just for that situation with those skills and set pieces.

As soon as someone discovers a new "meta" , a build countering it can be created. There is no Meta, rather a elaborate and slow process of rock paper scissors is ensuing. I see so many people limiting themselves to 1 particular play style and i see them lose in pvp or pve and than they wonder why they die.

Situational is the name of the game. Watch the updates and new sets and do not be afraid to try out a set you find interesting, if you have an idea for utilizing a set mechanic its usually worth going for. Those mechanics aren't always the easiest to see.

Fact of the matter is you can't have 100% balance with a game this complex. Too many variables and qualitative analysis often comes into play by devs. When you have as many combination of skills and armor types as this game has there is bound to be better builds and armor combos than others. As others have pointed out above, clearly there is a meta. When weapon burst, high proc set burst, instant smart healing, tankiness, and mobility can all be combined on a specific class build that = the meta. All other builds are inferior.

Examples of past metas:
Remember when vampire shield stacking DKs were invincible?
Remember when invincible Templars would have perm blazing shield?
Remember when shield stacking sorcs were invincible?
Remember when nb could pop alchemist, proximity det, soul tether, and vicious death and wipe zergs?
Remember when everyone was running around with cc and 10k wrecking blows before they changed the morphs?
Remember when everyone was rocking skoria and malubeth before nerfs?

Examples of current meta:
Now we have stam nb using valedreth, viper, and eternal hunt just wrecking people.
Now we have impossible to kill stam DKs.
Now we have hurricane two handed stam sorcs either popping alchemist or using duel wield bleeds with speed pots.
now we have stam bow builds wrecking people with poison injections, widow maker, lethal arrow, and etc.
Now we have heavy armor wearing black rose...
Now we have instant healing impossible to kill magplars that dish out crazy damage. Jesus beam anyone?See the video in another thread?
And of course, stam builds if done right can easily get over 6k weapon damage while still maintaining mobility.

Do you see a trend here with the exception to magplar?

Ill tell you what's not the meta.
Magicka DKs
Magicka sorcs
Magicka nb
Or any magicka class not a magplar that relies on dots (damage over time) because dots are far inferior to burst in the current "meta"

Now you think it's rock, vs paper, vs scissors? It's more like rock crushing paper and scissors shredding paper

zzz wrote: »

There's a meta-assertion around Volley's morphs that always makes me chuckle. Apparently, Endless Hail > Arrow Barrage because it's higher DPS.

The truth: they both have exactly the same DPS! They differ in duration of the DoT and cost (2 seconds extra for Endless Hail, lowered cost) vs area of the DoT (almost twice the coverage for Arrow Barrage). By all means, advocate Endless Hail over Arrow Barrage, but don't tell us it's for greater DPS (they're both instant cast). That just makes you look... silly. And in need of a maths refresher.

Endless Hail > Arrow Barrage.
Hint: Maelstrom Bow.

I think you need a maths refresher.

]

zzz wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Endless Hail > Arrow Barrage.
Hint: Maelstrom Bow.

I think you need a maths refresher.

I really don't =P

5m radius is almost half the area of 7m radius. That extra few hundred damage per target is dependant on a particular situation, one that has people stating with absolute authority that Endless Hail > Arrow Barrage. And it's usually wrapped up as "If you're a skillful player". It's rubbish advice, in my opinion.

This thread is about skills/equipment meta builds not being absolute. This is a perfect example. There are many situations where greater coverage, irrespective of how 'skillful' you are, will out DPS the other morph.

Hint: I'm not saying Endless Hail < Arrow Barrage, I'm saying !(Endless Hail > Arrow Barrage)

Its not rubish advice its l2p issue. There are two scenarios: 1) mobs are stacked up -> both hit all the targets anyways -> hail is better 2) mobs cant be stacked which means both still hit the same number of targets -> hail is better. If your tank can't stack mobs properly then this dps loss is on him not your choice of skills.
Also singletarget dps is much more important anyways as there a few % can make the difference between skipping mechanics or not. And in ST you also benefit from the fact that hail fits better inti your rotation which also makes a dps boost.
Conclusion: Hail is better in every scenario execpt when your tank is bad.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

Well if you can tell me how to counter a black rose and viper 5 heavy stamina dk with shuffle, wings, and sword and board on my magblade I'm all ears

I would just ignore him. You can port to shade and cloak, and there's nothing he can do to prevent it once detection potion duration runs out.

Apart from:

Any aoe
Caltraps
Poisons
If someone marks you
Camo hunter
The fact your going to be snared by 50-70% so your literally going to stand still and get no where.
The fact you'll be spending half your time healing because stamina can be tanks and damage with OP proc sets so even a light attack can take 50% of your hp nowdays..
Etc....

But yeah, it's not like the wings will be up 24/7 , oh wait with heavy they are.
It's not like they counter everything a typical mag nb has... oh wait, swallow, light attacks, crippling, assassins will... it does.

Err you'll catch them via burst with your 4k crit swallows and there 27k + hp and 30k resist...

Err GL i guess...

#Balance.

Concealed weapon?...

xblackroxe wrote: »

]

zzz wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

Endless Hail > Arrow Barrage.
Hint: Maelstrom Bow.

I think you need a maths refresher.

I really don't =P

5m radius is almost half the area of 7m radius. That extra few hundred damage per target is dependant on a particular situation, one that has people stating with absolute authority that Endless Hail > Arrow Barrage. And it's usually wrapped up as "If you're a skillful player". It's rubbish advice, in my opinion.

This thread is about skills/equipment meta builds not being absolute. This is a perfect example. There are many situations where greater coverage, irrespective of how 'skillful' you are, will out DPS the other morph.

Hint: I'm not saying Endless Hail < Arrow Barrage, I'm saying !(Endless Hail > Arrow Barrage)

Its not rubish advice its l2p issue. There are two scenarios: 1) mobs are stacked up -> both hit all the targets anyways -> hail is better 2) mobs cant be stacked which means both still hit the same number of targets -> hail is better. If your tank can't stack mobs properly then this dps loss is on him not your choice of skills.
Also singletarget dps is much more important anyways as there a few % can make the difference between skipping mechanics or not. And in ST you also benefit from the fact that hail fits better inti your rotation which also makes a dps boost.
Conclusion: Hail is better in every scenario execpt when your tank is bad.

Oh wow I just wrote up my thing for nothing.... But yeah what he said ^^^^^^^^

I don't know , the hidden balance seems really well hidden sometimes .

jaburns wrote: »

I just use whatever build that enhances my ERP.

That prosperous build probably be best for this with 100 points in the Lover tree .

LegacyDM wrote: »

ThoraxtheDark wrote: »

Does anyone else notice that Players seem to deduce all the sets into the game into a few. (That are worth using). Okay this is an obvious one, and this stems from the specific Races, Classes and passives etc that can be selected that are the optimal choice for doing DPS etc (whatever you are trying to do).

The "meta" gets out there and is used by all who want to make their character the "strongest". But in reality there is no strongest build and i will give you examples why -

Enemy has 11k physcial resist, you have spriggans thorns , using your regular debuffs on the enemy, lets say you debuff to 18k. you are wasting 7k pen on air.

using hundings rage for consistent dps ( your fighting is not always consistent , sometimes burst is better rather than over all time. )

Usually the builds intertwine with specific skills , leaving no room for different options when a certain skill has everything you need. You need endless hail with maelstrom bow , doesnt mean you cant have endless hail without the bow. If you are going down that route than yes thats the best option, but it isnt the best option for DPS, just for that situation with those skills and set pieces.

As soon as someone discovers a new "meta" , a build countering it can be created. There is no Meta, rather a elaborate and slow process of rock paper scissors is ensuing. I see so many people limiting themselves to 1 particular play style and i see them lose in pvp or pve and than they wonder why they die.

Situational is the name of the game. Watch the updates and new sets and do not be afraid to try out a set you find interesting, if you have an idea for utilizing a set mechanic its usually worth going for. Those mechanics aren't always the easiest to see.

Fact of the matter is you can't have 100% balance with a game this complex. Too many variables and qualitative analysis often comes into play by devs. When you have as many combination of skills and armor types as this game has there is bound to be better builds and armor combos than others. As others have pointed out above, clearly there is a meta. When weapon burst, high proc set burst, instant smart healing, tankiness, and mobility can all be combined on a specific class build that = the meta. All other builds are inferior.

Examples of past metas:
Remember when vampire shield stacking DKs were invincible?
Remember when invincible Templars would have perm blazing shield?
Remember when shield stacking sorcs were invincible?
Remember when nb could pop alchemist, proximity det, soul tether, and vicious death and wipe zergs?
Remember when everyone was running around with cc and 10k wrecking blows before they changed the morphs?
Remember when everyone was rocking skoria and malubeth before nerfs?

Examples of current meta:
Now we have stam nb using valedreth, viper, and eternal hunt just wrecking people.
Now we have impossible to kill stam DKs.
Now we have hurricane two handed stam sorcs either popping alchemist or using duel wield bleeds with speed pots.
now we have stam bow builds wrecking people with poison injections, widow maker, lethal arrow, and etc.
Now we have heavy armor wearing black rose...
Now we have instant healing impossible to kill magplars that dish out crazy damage. Jesus beam anyone?See the video in another thread?
And of course, stam builds if done right can easily get over 6k weapon damage while still maintaining mobility.

Do you see a trend here with the exception to magplar?

Ill tell you what's not the meta.
Magicka DKs
Magicka sorcs
Magicka nb
Or any magicka class not a magplar that relies on dots (damage over time) because dots are far inferior to burst in the current "meta"

Now you think it's rock, vs paper, vs scissors? It's more like rock crushing paper and scissors shredding paper

All of the "Past Metas" always had a counter though. Just because a build is good doesn't mean its the meta, just means its a good build. Popularity doesn't mean definitive evidence of best in slot. I would argue most people aren't above average in intelligence, most people are just going to go with what is a good build rather than figure out a counter to the "current meta".
As time progresses there are always new metas because people eventually play around with different sets, put it on forums or youtube or some kind of social media and people get a hold of it.

Also i would argue that when people are "testing" the meta they cannot expect every variable of combat, and if they are just structuring their builds around the metas than they are never truly Bulletproofing there build (not that you can). Theres always people who use a different niche set or build that you would never expect.