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Another try at a discussion about.. Animation canceling!
Malitias
✭✭
As the previous discussion was closed, because a moderator felt like the discussions was getting too aggressive, let's try it again and be more constructive.
There's alot of people having a problem with the way AC works, there's no denying that. It's not a "I can't l2p" issue, it's an issue with the way it feels and looks.
There's alot of people fearing that the removal of AC would make the gameplay too easy, from what I've gathered.
To me AC is a problem because, as I've stated before, it causes problems with client and server communication. Sometimes the client won't actually register the completion of the skill, while the server does, resulting in showing enemies having maybe 50% of their life even though they are actually dead. It also breaks immersion for me, because I want the actual "hit" of my skill to be visible in the animation. Some skills don't do that when using AC.
Now what I'd like to see is a change to those animations. Animations in which the complete attack with it's actual hit is visible and can't be canceled, whilst the part which can be ACed is a sort of downtime after an animation.
The goal should be to have only the part of the animation canceled which is not part of the actual attack so ACing won't break immersion and giving the player a more visible part of the animation which can be canceled. Making battles more immersive and believable, but retaining the benefit of being able to weave and making it more obvious and aesthetically pleasing, especially for new players.
Also ZOS NEEDS to mention AC in their game if they want it to be a part of it, which they seem to do. Otherwise the discussion and debates about ACing will persist for as long as the game will exist.
I think there's a solution with which everyone can be happy.
There's alot of people having a problem with the way AC works, there's no denying that. It's not a "I can't l2p" issue, it's an issue with the way it feels and looks.
There's alot of people fearing that the removal of AC would make the gameplay too easy, from what I've gathered.
To me AC is a problem because, as I've stated before, it causes problems with client and server communication. Sometimes the client won't actually register the completion of the skill, while the server does, resulting in showing enemies having maybe 50% of their life even though they are actually dead. It also breaks immersion for me, because I want the actual "hit" of my skill to be visible in the animation. Some skills don't do that when using AC.
Now what I'd like to see is a change to those animations. Animations in which the complete attack with it's actual hit is visible and can't be canceled, whilst the part which can be ACed is a sort of downtime after an animation.
The goal should be to have only the part of the animation canceled which is not part of the actual attack so ACing won't break immersion and giving the player a more visible part of the animation which can be canceled. Making battles more immersive and believable, but retaining the benefit of being able to weave and making it more obvious and aesthetically pleasing, especially for new players.
Also ZOS NEEDS to mention AC in their game if they want it to be a part of it, which they seem to do. Otherwise the discussion and debates about ACing will persist for as long as the game will exist.
I think there's a solution with which everyone can be happy.
6
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Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Stop dreaming man. Animation cancelling will never be removed. It becamed part of gameplay that many people stand on and love it. PvE meta is all about animation cancelling. If it breaks Your immersion just dont do it. About lag I think there are bigger issues that causing it then AC. No hate here, just my opinion.Edited by Juhasow on September 27, 2016 12:16PM4 -
Malitias✭✭
Did you even read my post?Stop dreaming man. Animation cancelling will never be removed.
It only happens when ACing, there's no arguing if it's related to it.It becamed part of gameplay that many people stand on. If it breaks Your immersion just dont do it. About lag I think there are bigger issues that causing it then AC. No hate here, just my opinion.
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lolo_01b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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HP desync can also happen in PvE. So either npcs also do animation canceling (very unlikely) or there is something else causing it (very likely).To me AC is a problem because, as I've stated before, it causes problems with client and server communication. Sometimes the client won't actually register the completion of the skill, while the server does, resulting in showing enemies having maybe 50% of their life even though they are actually dead.
Also completly removing AC would require so much change in code, that it's probably not worth doing it.Edited by lolo_01b16_ESO on September 27, 2016 12:25PM4 -
Knootewoot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I am no fan of AC. I don't (intentionally) use it myself because I think it's stupid. A hit should be done if an animation has been done and not when you swing a sword but not really but still hit someone.
But it is here to stay. ZOS does not know how to remove it and 90% of the current players probably use it to maximize DPS.
It is here to stay. This horse is dead, stop beating it.٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶
"I am a nightblade. Blending the disciplines of the stealthy agent and subtle wizard, I move unseen and undetected, foil locks and traps, and teleport to safety when threatened, or strike like a viper from ambush. The College of Illusion hides me and fuddles or pacifies my opponents. The College of Mysticism detects my object, reflects and dispels enemy spells, and makes good my escape. The key to a nightblade's success is avoidance, by spell or by stealth; with these skills, all things are possible."3 -
MalakithAlamahdi✭✭✭✭✭Knootewoot wrote: »I am no fan of AC. I don't (intentionally) use it myself because I think it's stupid. A hit should be done if an animation has been done and not when you swing a sword but not really but still hit someone.
But it is here to stay. ZOS does not know how to remove it and 90% of the current players probably use it to maximize DPS.
It is here to stay. This horse is dead, stop beating it.
But I like my meat tender
2 -
Alucardo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Man, every time they try and mess with the animations they completely break the combat. You can't even weave staff attacks as smoothly as you used to be able to. Please no more changes in this regard.8 -
Knootewoot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »Knootewoot wrote: »I am no fan of AC. I don't (intentionally) use it myself because I think it's stupid. A hit should be done if an animation has been done and not when you swing a sword but not really but still hit someone.
But it is here to stay. ZOS does not know how to remove it and 90% of the current players probably use it to maximize DPS.
It is here to stay. This horse is dead, stop beating it.
But I like my meat tender
I understand. But this horse has been dead too long. The meat is rotten and not advised for consumption. I suggest KFC.٩(͡๏̯͡๏)۶
"I am a nightblade. Blending the disciplines of the stealthy agent and subtle wizard, I move unseen and undetected, foil locks and traps, and teleport to safety when threatened, or strike like a viper from ambush. The College of Illusion hides me and fuddles or pacifies my opponents. The College of Mysticism detects my object, reflects and dispels enemy spells, and makes good my escape. The key to a nightblade's success is avoidance, by spell or by stealth; with these skills, all things are possible."1 -
TheFalcon19✭✭✭Also ZOS NEEDS to mention AC in their game if they want it to be a part of it, which they seem to do. Otherwise the discussion and debates about ACing will persist for as long as the game will exist.
Again for the 100th time:
"With animation canceling, we're embracing it, so if you want ... like animation cancelling is a part of the game, and we want people to be doing it and it's ... it's an interesting sort of skill mechanic ... and the timing is like a little different between different abilities, which is kinda interesting ... so yeah ... that is fully okay if you're doing that, it's not a hack or an exploit, you're not cheating or anything, so continue to animation cancel and do more damage."Wrobel (in an eso live a year ago)
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Juhasow✭✭✭✭✭
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Did you even read my post?Stop dreaming man. Animation cancelling will never be removed.
It only happens when ACing, there's no arguing if it's related to it.It becamed part of gameplay that many people stand on. If it breaks Your immersion just dont do it. About lag I think there are bigger issues that causing it then AC. No hate here, just my opinion.
1 Yes I readed it and You vision of improving AC is impossible to do. You want zenimax to set point where You can cancel animation of skill for each skill? Look how many different animations in the game You have some are faster some not. and if You'll set the same point for animation cancelling for each animations some skills will be better then other not because of their values but because animation cancelling of them. You're dreaming man.
2. LOL You want to tell me lag in the game happens only because people cancelling animations? I can have 500+ ping when I dont AC and 100 ping when I do. Stop beliving in things You want to belive.Edited by Juhasow on September 27, 2016 1:02PM2 -
PS4_ZeColmeia✭✭✭✭✭I'll say what I wrote yesterday. Forget about intended or not, in update 9 or 10 when they optimized animation cancelling to it's current state they did a full arm embrace of it. It's not only now part of the design, but part of the dps optimization.
So now the question is does it work like it was intended in the previous update. I think it is, @ZOS_GinaBruno explained it back then and it does seem to function as they said.
At this point, it doesn't matter how it came to be, it's part of the design and therefore now a L2P issue.
FYI, I have a hard time anicancelling on my vita when I'm playing around the wife. It's just the way the controller handles, but I'm not complaining other than to say it'd be easier with front corner buttons.PSN: ***___Chan (3 _s)
Hybrid, All-Role NB2 -
kylewwefan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭This again? It's part of the game.
Most times weaving light attacks between abilities looks bad enough....but it majorly helps kill stuff quicker. Killing stuff quicker make me feel like Hero! Gotta leave it alone.
IMO PvP combat is mostly trash crapshoot and when I get killed it's usually over so fast I wouldn't have time to react anyways. Whether it's a glass cannon ganker that knows what they're doing or being mowed over by the Zerg, you're gonna see around 6 attacks on your death report and probably only actually see one or two of the abilities listed used.
Also, on console not as many people know how or do AC as you would think. It's more likely button mashers combined with slow server response time and combined with your slower reflexes that make it seem like it's such big a thing.
It all happens in like a second anyways.0 -
Malitias✭✭Ok, to all of you saying "AC is here to stay".
Quote a sentence in which I suggested it to be gone.
I have NEVER said in any post I want it gone. And I don't.
I want it CHANGED, not gone. Because, in it's current state, the mechanic is poorly implemented and doesn't feel right to me and a seemingly large proportion of the playerbase.
Stop answering to things I have never said. You are either not reading the post or deliberately trying to provoke people.
In both cases, stop it.
Now can we please get to the actual topic of the discussion about how ZOS could potentially please both groups and also make the game more understandable for new audiences?2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Stop dreaming man. Animation cancelling will never be removed. It becamed part of gameplay that many people stand on and love it. PvE meta is all about animation cancelling. If it breaks Your immersion just dont do it. About lag I think there are bigger issues that causing it then AC. No hate here, just my opinion.
More importantly, it should not be removed. Any player csn learn to get this technique down. It just takes practice.
If a player is experiencing lag it's usually fixable. I know players from AUS on the NA server that handle doing animation canceling. Hard to get more lag than they have unless playing the game on a potatoe which is more of a personal issue and not a Zos problem.
And more importantly, AC revived the blessings of Zos long again. It's officially part of the game play now.Edited by idk on September 27, 2016 1:23PM0 -
Malitias✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Stop dreaming man. Animation cancelling will never be removed. It becamed part of gameplay that many people stand on and love it. PvE meta is all about animation cancelling. If it breaks Your immersion just dont do it. About lag I think there are bigger issues that causing it then AC. No hate here, just my opinion.
More importantly, it should not be removed. Any player csn learn to get this technique down. It just takes practice.
If a player is experiencing lag it's usually fixable. I know players from AUS on the NA server that handle doing animation canceling. Hard to get more lag than they have unless playing the game on a potatoe which is more of a personal issue and not a Zos problem.
I AM NOT SAYING IT SHOULD BE REMOVED FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!!0 -
MalakithAlamahdi✭✭✭✭✭Knootewoot wrote: »MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »Knootewoot wrote: »I am no fan of AC. I don't (intentionally) use it myself because I think it's stupid. A hit should be done if an animation has been done and not when you swing a sword but not really but still hit someone.
But it is here to stay. ZOS does not know how to remove it and 90% of the current players probably use it to maximize DPS.
It is here to stay. This horse is dead, stop beating it.
But I like my meat tender
I understand. But this horse has been dead too long. The meat is rotten and not advised for consumption. I suggest KFC.
Mmm chicken.0 -
As the previous discussion was closed, because a moderator felt like the discussions was getting too aggressive, let's try it again and be more constructive.
There's alot of people having a problem with the way AC works, there's no denying that. It's not a "I can't l2p" issue, it's an issue with the way it feels and looks.
There's alot of people fearing that the removal of AC would make the gameplay too easy, from what I've gathered.
To me AC is a problem because, as I've stated before, it causes problems with client and server communication. Sometimes the client won't actually register the completion of the skill, while the server does, resulting in showing enemies having maybe 50% of their life even though they are actually dead. It also breaks immersion for me, because I want the actual "hit" of my skill to be visible in the animation. Some skills don't do that when using AC.
Now what I'd like to see is a change to those animations. Animations in which the complete attack with it's actual hit is visible and can't be canceled, whilst the part which can be ACed is a sort of downtime after an animation.
The goal should be to have only the part of the animation canceled which is not part of the actual attack so ACing won't break immersion and giving the player a more visible part of the animation which can be canceled. Making battles more immersive and believable, but retaining the benefit of being able to weave and making it more obvious and aesthetically pleasing, especially for new players.
Also ZOS NEEDS to mention AC in their game if they want it to be a part of it, which they seem to do. Otherwise the discussion and debates about ACing will persist for as long as the game will exist.
I think there's a solution with which everyone can be happy.
I agree that at the very least Cancelling should be part of the user manual or not a thing at all.
If all the animations could be reworked to make cancelling a valid and natural thing in the world would be awesome.
Without either of these things cancelling should be removed.
Fact is its a bug/exploit and the only reason it hasn't been fixed is because its too hard... Thats why I think it should either be in the manual or... More awesomely... Have animations reworked to accommodate it.
In its current state animation cancelling is an abuse of a system the devs cant find an easy fix for and it leaves noobs very much at a disadvantage until they too find a site that describes how to game the game.1 -
Well i actually kinda like the idea of light attack weaving. LA gotta have some use after all right? What i dont like is animation skipping. This is simply a bad design when skills that were cancelled still do what they were supposed to do. Especially for PvP. And yeah AC in theory can cause lag 'cause it's an extra data for server to handle but there's not much they can do about it. You gotta be able to cancel skill in an emergency. But the fact that you can say use endless hail w/o your character even raising hands to actually shoot bow if you time block properly and if your latency allows it is simply wrong.Edited by inf.toniceb17_ESO on September 27, 2016 1:26PM2 -
BurritoESO✭✭✭✭Animation cancelling is one of the only skillful things of ESO left in this game... removing it or changing it would just lower the skill gap and make killing good players in 1v1 impossible
This game needs animation cancelling, and people should really stop complaining about it to leave a somewhat competitive spark in this game
Not everything revolves around you and your immersionsEdited by BurritoESO on September 27, 2016 1:27PM2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Stop dreaming man. Animation cancelling will never be removed. It becamed part of gameplay that many people stand on and love it. PvE meta is all about animation cancelling. If it breaks Your immersion just dont do it. About lag I think there are bigger issues that causing it then AC. No hate here, just my opinion.
More importantly, it should not be removed. Any player csn learn to get this technique down. It just takes practice.
If a player is experiencing lag it's usually fixable. I know players from AUS on the NA server that handle doing animation canceling. Hard to get more lag than they have unless playing the game on a potatoe which is more of a personal issue and not a Zos problem.
I AM NOT SAYING IT SHOULD BE REMOVED FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!!
Tgeh the thread is absolutly not needed. Zos has already modified the animations.
Additionally, the only part of the animation that can be cancelled is the extra, not part of the actual damage because if it is canceled to early the skill didn't fire. So we are done. Glad we had this discussion and I could help bring resolution to this issue.1 -
lolo_01b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Well, how should it work then? Lets say I bash cancel a skill because my enemy starts casting something. Would my enemy see the skill I used or would he see that I interrupt him?Ok, to all of you saying "AC is here to stay".
Quote a sentence in which I suggested it to be gone.
I have NEVER said in any post I want it gone. And I don't.
I want it CHANGED, not gone. Because, in it's current state, the mechanic is poorly implemented and doesn't feel right to me and a seemingly large proportion of the playerbase.
Stop answering to things I have never said. You are either not reading the post or deliberately trying to provoke people.
In both cases, stop it.
Now can we please get to the actual topic of the discussion about how ZOS could potentially please both groups and also make the game more understandable for new audiences?0 -
inf.toniceb17_ESO wrote: »Well i actually kinda like the idea of light attack weaving. LA gotta have some use after all right? What i dont like is animation skipping. This is simply a bad design when skills that were cancelled still do what they were supposed to do. Especially for PvP. And yeah AC in theory can cause lag 'cause it's an extra data for server to handle but there's not much they can do about it. You gotta be able to cancel skill in an emergency. But the fact that you can say use endless hail w/o your character even raising hands to actually shoot bow if you time block properly and if your latency allows it is simply wrong.
Like you say if your ping is awesome then cancelling works better. What about the other 80% of players that are not based in the US?
Lets keep things fair and not abuse flaws in the animation design.
I don't even play PvP but its obviously an issue that has been overlooked/discarded for far too long.
Better animations are well overdue anyway.1 -
Malitias✭✭
And they obviously did it wrong.Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Tgeh the thread is absolutly not needed. Zos has already modified the animations.
Dunno what to say except that it's plain wrong. You can cancel alot of animations before you hit something visually (in the animation). Maybe you're not doing it "right"?Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Additionally, the only part of the animation that can be cancelled is the extra, not part of the actual damage because if it is canceled to early the skill didn't fire. So we are done. Glad we had this discussion and I could help bring resolution to this issue.
0 -
Malitias✭✭lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »
Well, how should it work then? Lets say I bash cancel a skill because my enemy starts casting something. Would my enemy see the skill I used or would he see that I interrupt him?Ok, to all of you saying "AC is here to stay".
Quote a sentence in which I suggested it to be gone.
I have NEVER said in any post I want it gone. And I don't.
I want it CHANGED, not gone. Because, in it's current state, the mechanic is poorly implemented and doesn't feel right to me and a seemingly large proportion of the playerbase.
Stop answering to things I have never said. You are either not reading the post or deliberately trying to provoke people.
In both cases, stop it.
Now can we please get to the actual topic of the discussion about how ZOS could potentially please both groups and also make the game more understandable for new audiences?
Well, in my opinion that should depend on the state you were in, when you were using that skill. If you were in the wind-up time of using the skill (the "cast time") then you should be able to cancel it, but the skill you were using would be canceled. As in no effect, because it was canceled. If you try to shield bash after you already done the actual hit, there should be a frame during which you cannot cancel and a part which you can cancel (which comes afterwards).0 -
PS4_ZeColmeia✭✭✭✭✭Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Stop dreaming man. Animation cancelling will never be removed. It becamed part of gameplay that many people stand on and love it. PvE meta is all about animation cancelling. If it breaks Your immersion just dont do it. About lag I think there are bigger issues that causing it then AC. No hate here, just my opinion.
More importantly, it should not be removed. Any player csn learn to get this technique down. It just takes practice.
If a player is experiencing lag it's usually fixable. I know players from AUS on the NA server that handle doing animation canceling. Hard to get more lag than they have unless playing the game on a potatoe which is more of a personal issue and not a Zos problem.
I AM NOT SAYING IT SHOULD BE REMOVED FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!!
Why do you want to remove it? It's part of the game..
PSN: ***___Chan (3 _s)
Hybrid, All-Role NB0 -
Malitias✭✭PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Stop dreaming man. Animation cancelling will never be removed. It becamed part of gameplay that many people stand on and love it. PvE meta is all about animation cancelling. If it breaks Your immersion just dont do it. About lag I think there are bigger issues that causing it then AC. No hate here, just my opinion.
More importantly, it should not be removed. Any player csn learn to get this technique down. It just takes practice.
If a player is experiencing lag it's usually fixable. I know players from AUS on the NA server that handle doing animation canceling. Hard to get more lag than they have unless playing the game on a potatoe which is more of a personal issue and not a Zos problem.
I AM NOT SAYING IT SHOULD BE REMOVED FOR CRYING OUT LOUD!!!!!
Why do you want to remove it? It's part of the game..
Because my muffin said I have to, otherwise my cigarette won't stop stripping.0
