Why do dungeons have no requirements?

Desperado070 · September 2016

As the tittle says, meant for both role and gear side.
Beside that you have to be level 10 in order to sign up for dungeons there are no requirements.
Not to say the least about tanks or healers joining dungeons while they don't even have the gear or even a healing spell.
The problem that this creates is that when you leave because you play you role and the healer doesn't gives you a 10 ~ 15 min cooldown.
So i'm getting punished for the healer queuing up as healer but being nothing more than a dps...
And talking about the gear whites with no stats or no gear doesn't scale either.
It is all so easy if everyone just does whatever he is suppose to do.
I don't have a solution for this issue but this is one of the big reasons the dungeons are doing so bad.
I mean after I've had to cool off forcefully by the devs and be reminded of what just happened.
I'm not really that eager to sign up for me next dungeon knowing there is a rate of 33% of this happening again.
(33% is taken from playing as a tank for around 2 weeks now...)

Unsent.Soul · September 2016

It's the ignorance of the players... that will never be fixed.

Nestor · September 2016

Just because someone has the gear, does not mean they know how to leverage it for their role

Just because someone has the skills, does not mean they know how, when, why and who to use them on.

PUGs are always going to be hit or miss. But, there are more hits than misses in the long run, and you can find excellent dungeon partners for future runs from PUGing.

I will admit that the cool down on leaving the group does need to be addressed. While the intention was good, to stop PUGs from being Trolled, there some unintended consequences.

So, long story short, join a guild and you will have a better time finding groups for dungeons, esp with Text Chat.

jedtb16_ESO · September 2016

maybe its for people to figure out for themselves what works and what doesn't?

redspecter23 · September 2016

Had a guy queue up as heals tank and dps the other day. He came in and was the tank. When he was underperforming, the group asked if he was taunting and he said he didn't have a taunt on his bar. Group disbanded at that point. I suppose he thought that by queueing as all three roles, he'd get a group faster, but if he couldn't actually play the roles he signed up for, it's not going to speed anything up and just waste time.

lolo_01b16_ESO · September 2016

The problem with requirements is that there is no good way to measure a player's skill and experience.
First issue with skill / gear requirements is that players often don't use the same skills for dungeons and overworld content. Would the requirements mean I get kicked from the queue if I swap my taunt for rapid to move faster from crafting station to writ delivery location while waiting for a group?
And even if you check the players after porting to the dungeons there would be issues:
- What gear should be required as tank? Does it have to be heavy armour? Or can it be light / medium aswell? Or since I can tank vICP naked, would that be an option aswell?
- Which skills does a healer need? Perfect setup with shards, combat prayer, ele drain and bol? Or just any restro staff skill? What about a nb healing with funnel, path and sap? Or a stamplar with vigor and repentance? Both those options use skills that many dps also have on their bars and work in vet dungeons if people know how their movement keys work.

tklawson · September 2016

Not everyone is at the same level. Perhaps instead of complaining that they don't know their role, you can help them learn.

BrianDavion · September 2016

redspecter23 wrote: »

Had a guy queue up as heals tank and dps the other day. He came in and was the tank. When he was underperforming, the group asked if he was taunting and he said he didn't have a taunt on his bar. Group disbanded at that point. I suppose he thought that by queueing as all three roles, he'd get a group faster, but if he couldn't actually play the roles he signed up for, it's not going to speed anything up and just waste time.

people who do that figure they can be carried once they get into a group I guess

Desperado070 · September 2016

Nestor wrote: »

Just because someone has the gear, does not mean they know how to leverage it for their role

Just because someone has the skills, does not mean they know how, when, why and who to use them on.

PUGs are always going to be hit or miss. But, there are more hits than misses in the long run, and you can find excellent dungeon partners for future runs from PUGing.

I will admit that the cool down on leaving the group does need to be addressed. While the intention was good, to stop PUGs from being Trolled, there some unintended consequences.

So, long story short, join a guild and you will have a better time finding groups for dungeons, esp with Text Chat.

I agree with you at pugs being a hit or miss, but because just someone having the skill and/or gear does help a great deal.

redspecter23 wrote: »

Had a guy queue up as heals tank and dps the other day. He came in and was the tank. When he was underperforming, the group asked if he was taunting and he said he didn't have a taunt on his bar. Group disbanded at that point. I suppose he thought that by queueing as all three roles, he'd get a group faster, but if he couldn't actually play the roles he signed up for, it's not going to speed anything up and just waste time.

This is exactly why i'm here with this post.
Dps takes a hour, while healer takes around 5 ~ 10 min to queue and a tank is instant que most of the times.
That is the only reason why they do it at all, having any requirements of at least a taunt would again help a great deal.

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

The problem with requirements is that there is no good way to measure a player's skill and experience.
First issue with skill / gear requirements is that players often don't use the same skills for dungeons and overworld content. Would the requirements mean I get kicked from the queue if I swap my taunt for rapid to move faster from crafting station to writ delivery location while waiting for a group?
And even if you check the players after porting to the dungeons there would be issues:
- What gear should be required as tank? Does it have to be heavy armour? Or can it be light / medium aswell? Or since I can tank vICP naked, would that be an option aswell?
- Which skills does a healer need? Perfect setup with shards, combat prayer, ele drain and bol? Or just any restro staff skill? What about a nb healing with funnel, path and sap? Or a stamplar with vigor and repentance? Both those options use skills that many dps also have on their bars and work in vet dungeons if people know how their movement keys work.

Yes but leaving any requirements out isn't a solution either...

tklawson wrote: »

Not everyone is at the same level. Perhaps instead of complaining that they don't know their role, you can help them learn.

I find it funny you saying something like this.
We are not talking about people who have no idea what they are doing.
Actually i was talking about the people who damn good knew what they are doing.
And do it only so they can join a dungeon faster...
So i should help them learn something they already know?

FearlessOne_2014 · September 2016

I think the timer just needs to go. ZOS just needs to take away to safety helmets for the ah.... special players. The ones the believe they are fully and completely entitled to getting carried. If you refuse to carry them, then you are a scum of the earth ELITIST.

My point is ZOS shouldn't punish you because. You decide for whatever reasons. You just did not wanted to stay with that group. It's not bad enoth just having to wait 20 to 45 minutes for group finder to pull you into a dungeon. But now you have to either carry a tank that refuse to tank and a healer who refuse to listen to advice and heal. At least until you get fed up quit group. Oh wait now you get the 15 minutes dissertation timer, for leaving a crap storm of a group, thank you come again. Another 20 to 45 minute queue awaits and your chances are none the higher either.

Moral of this story is don't use random group finder. Unless you are only queuing up with 3 people. Unless ZOS takes away the timer. Or you can just do what I do and right before you leave the dungeon group. To make sure to gave them your appreciation for wasting your time.

nine9six · September 2016

I know the "pain", but if after the first trash pull or two things are going to be rough I ask for a moment, to pause the run, and ask a few questions / give a bit of advice.

The following pull is always WAY better. 99.9% of my (full) Friends List is composed of people who I met on a bad PUG that completed a run. I've never sent one friend request.

Be part of the solution, not the problem.

Desperado070 · September 2016

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

I think the timer just needs to go. ZOS just needs to take away to safety helmets for the ah.... special players. The ones the believe they are fully and completely entitled to getting carried. If you refuse to carry them, then you are a scum of the earth ELITIST.

My point is ZOS shouldn't punish you because. You decide for whatever reasons. You just did not wanted to stay with that group. It's not bad enoth just having to wait 20 to 45 minutes for group finder to pull you into a dungeon. But now you have to either carry a tank that refuse to tank and a healer who refuse to listen to advice and heal. At least until you get fed up quit group. Oh wait now you get the 15 minutes dissertation timer, for leaving a crap storm of a group, thank you come again. Another 20 to 45 minute queue awaits and your chances are none the higher either.

Moral of this story is don't use random group finder. Unless you are only queuing up with 3 people. Unless ZOS takes away the timer. Or you can just do what I do and right before you leave the dungeon group. To make sure to gave them your appreciation for wasting your time.

Exactly...
The main reason i'm wondering why there is no requirement is because there is a cooldown on joining dungeons.
As i stated already i don't back down because it gives me xx minutes that i "need" to wait.
I imagine this being in the game for trolls just joining, leaving, joining, leaving etc...
Being really honest i don't see this as a game breaking thing trolls joining and leaving because in the end a normal person joins.
So again why the hell is there a cooldown on joining dungeons?! {confused}

nine9six wrote: »

I know the "pain", but if after the first trash pull or two things are going to be rough I ask for a moment, to pause the run, and ask a few questions / give a bit of advice.

The following pull is always WAY better. 99.9% of my (full) Friends List is composed of people who I met on a bad PUG that completed a run. I've never sent one friend request.

Be part of the solution, not the problem.

I'm not against noobs but i'm against people who know but deny to do it because ... reasons ...

scorpiodog · September 2016

The grouping punishes people who have spent thousands of hours playing the game and are CP500+ but still don't have a handful of friends to run dungeons with.

Lots of Dungeons can be run with just 3 good people who are self sustaining. Lots of times we've continued a Dungeon with three people because one person flaked. Then by chance if you do get stuck you just call in a heavy hitter for the final Boss and he's happy to do it because he gets a key and a drop for just 10 minutes of his time.

I suspect some people better than me could run some dungeons with just two people.

The harder content that you can't run with three people you shouldn't run with a random group anyway. If I use the public grouping tool for ICP or WGT or the Hist DLC or anything Hard, I just EXPECT to waste a few hours. So I just never use the grouping tool.

kargen27 · September 2016

Desperado070 wrote: »

So again why the hell is there a cooldown on joining dungeons?! {confused}

My guess is part of the reason goes back to when people would just quit a group over and over until they get a very easy dungeon to run. Before the penalty I watched a lot of people quit a group because this dungeon takes to long or I don't like one of the bosses. Throw in there the people that quit because they don't want to run with characters lower than themselves and you spend a lot of time just trying to find four people that will both want to do the dungeon and do it with the people in the group. With the 15 minute penalty when I am in a group that has people that wants to quit because we got ICP I can tell them let's give it a try we have to wait 15 minutes anyway. Sometimes we do okay, other times it is obvious in that 15 minutes we are going nowhere fast. With no penalty they won't try that dungeon.

As an aside once you hit vet level people should think about doing random vet instead of normal. I have been doing that and when I get a group (doesn't happen often but that is a different problem) everybody usually knows their role and are equipped to do it. Getting through the vet level of a dungeon using the random group finder is sometimes easier than doing the same dungeon on normal just because of the difference in group skills.

NoRagret · September 2016

I usually just use group finder to get 3 people and get the quick port to the dungeon and I'll solo all the bosses, some pugs get mad because they want to RP through the dungeon and I just say "you're welcome to leave" and they get all worked up but other newbies appreciate the free gold or silver.

disintegr8 · September 2016

tklawson wrote: »

Not everyone is at the same level. Perhaps instead of complaining that they don't know their role, you can help them learn.

IF they are in group chat and IF they are prepared to listen. Most PUGs these days nobody is in group chat and using text chat to explain something is downright tedious.

The only good thing about cool down is that if you have spent 10-15 minutes trying to get through the first mobs or first boss and realize it's futile, your penalty time is just about up. The timer starts from the moment you are put in a group rather than the moment you leave it, so at least if you give it a go, you won't be so hard off.

SirAndy · September 2016

Nestor wrote: »

So, long story short, join a guild ...

I agree with ^^^ this. In my 3+ years of ESO i have never once used the group finder.

Desperado070 · September 2016

scorpiodog wrote: »

The grouping punishes people who have spent thousands of hours playing the game and are CP500+ but still don't have a handful of friends to run dungeons with.

Lots of Dungeons can be run with just 3 good people who are self sustaining. Lots of times we've continued a Dungeon with three people because one person flaked. Then by chance if you do get stuck you just call in a heavy hitter for the final Boss and he's happy to do it because he gets a key and a drop for just 10 minutes of his time.

I suspect some people better than me could run some dungeons with just two people.

The harder content that you can't run with three people you shouldn't run with a random group anyway. If I use the public grouping tool for ICP or WGT or the Hist DLC or anything Hard, I just EXPECT to waste a few hours. So I just never use the grouping tool.

I don't like the sarcasm in the first part of you comment especially since you could figure out i'm not one of those 500+.
This is something that pushes people away from even getting their in the first place so you can keep believing this.
But when new people don't stick around that 500+ pool will quickly thin out...

kargen27 wrote: »

Desperado070 wrote: »

So again why the hell is there a cooldown on joining dungeons?! {confused}

My guess is part of the reason goes back to when people would just quit a group over and over until they get a very easy dungeon to run. Before the penalty I watched a lot of people quit a group because this dungeon takes to long or I don't like one of the bosses. Throw in there the people that quit because they don't want to run with characters lower than themselves and you spend a lot of time just trying to find four people that will both want to do the dungeon and do it with the people in the group. With the 15 minute penalty when I am in a group that has people that wants to quit because we got ICP I can tell them let's give it a try we have to wait 15 minutes anyway. Sometimes we do okay, other times it is obvious in that 15 minutes we are going nowhere fast. With no penalty they won't try that dungeon.

As an aside once you hit vet level people should think about doing random vet instead of normal. I have been doing that and when I get a group (doesn't happen often but that is a different problem) everybody usually knows their role and are equipped to do it. Getting through the vet level of a dungeon using the random group finder is sometimes easier than doing the same dungeon on normal just because of the difference in group skills.

I get it it is the chicken or the egg discussion.
But having at least a taunt as tank or a heal spell/ability as healer required to join as sudden role in a dungeon, especially in the normal ones since it is focused on newer players in the first place it won't hurt anyone.
Since to my guess removing the cooldown is something they wil never do...

Humatiel · September 2016

If I may, two requirements would go a long way in solving some of these issues.

To have a dungeon in your possibilities of random queue you need to have both finished the normal version and completed the vet version at least once the day it was the pledge.

That wouldn't stop all problems but it would certainly limit them.

NewBlacksmurf · September 2016

The game was not built off of progression for dungeons.
There was a level tier initially but that soon was removed by adjusting dungeons to the leader in the first year so now with all the adjustments only a role should have requirements but they're letting ppl play as they want.

Prob just makes sense to have more healing and shielding for all and keep the pace going.

Diminish · September 2016

redspecter23 wrote: »

Had a guy queue up as heals tank and dps the other day. He came in and was the tank. When he was underperforming, the group asked if he was taunting and he said he didn't have a taunt on his bar. Group disbanded at that point. I suppose he thought that by queueing as all three roles, he'd get a group faster, but if he couldn't actually play the roles he signed up for, it's not going to speed anything up and just waste time.

This happens often, and one of the reasons why is that people will form a group, and then use group finder to queue into the dungeon. In order for this to work, all roles need to be filled. So you get DPS changing their roles to DPS, tank, and healer. You get healers changing theirs to DPS, tank, healer. So on, so forth.

At the end, roles forget to be switched back. You log off, log on the next day and queue up. All the sudden you find a group and realize that as a DPS you just match made as a healer role. WHOOPS! Now, you cant effectively explain this to the group and leave without getting a kick in the nuts from ZoS for doing so. Pretty dumb punishment system. You should have an X number of minutes to leave without punishment, and after X number of minutes you should also be able to leave without punishment. There should be a fine line where if you join a group, and leave or get disband that you get punished with a cool down.

My opinion, groups should not be able to be disband when they are PUGs created by Activity Finder. Individuals can leave if they want, but one person should not be able to ruin it for the other 3.

Wrecking_Blow_Spam · September 2016

Pugs are terrible and beautiful at the same time.

Examples I've experienced:
- 11k health 531cp players dieing every second
- Ppl in wrong roles
- 80% should be called "STANDS IN RED".
- The player with no soul gems who expects you to res when they get 1 shot by everything and run to agro the mobs.

- When you're (me) the tank and your healing the group the most, doing the most dps, all while taunting the boss, whilst everyone Is stood in red with no self heals and below 5k dps, good times

- When you're carrying the group (doing all heals, 90%dps etc) your game crashes you log back in and find out they kicked you. This happens so often I think really? I'm carrying you nubs and you vote to kick.

When you join a normal group dungeon (easy peasy normal) with a couple of 200+ CP players, they say let's kick the low level below 100CP I always vote no. Always, I never kick anyone even if they're level 10. So I show them honour, to the unknowing noobs.... I lag out, log back in and yes I've been kicked. So the same noobs who I decline to kick, kick you for being away for 1 minute. Noob logic.

Also when I'm healer if people are "Stands in Red" types (taking dmg when all they have to do is move) unless they're below level 40 I let them die or heal themselves. They have to learn somehow.

Note: I'm not elitist or anything I always give ppl the chance, but my experiences on console are people are generally quite bad. They kick you if you lag out. The amount of vote to kicks I've declined :'(

Synfaer · September 2016

I run plenty of pugs simply because some of the most fun I've had has been with pug groups. Sure some runs are horrendous but you have to take the good with the bad. I try to help players along the way, some listen some don't but on a whole most will listen.
The only pugs I absolutely hate are those that attract arrogant angry people who seem to think its their game and all others are their to stoke their ego or blame if things go wrong.

Flameheart · September 2016

PUGs...the neverending story.

In addition to the fine examples from the poster above, I may add, that I just do PUGs for silver daylies to get the 100-silver- pledge-achievement done on my DK and my Sorc (around 90/100 on both now, I see the light at the end of the dark tunnel...). I usually queue up as a DD and a healer and I am able to fill each role at 100% degree (having several equipments ready for different roles is quite usefull and Dressing Room is your friend).

Although I had several incidents with people queuing up as a tank or a healer, but were bad at that role, the absolute dominant mass of ignorant players concerns wanne be DDs with extreme lousy dps, movement and damage avoidance abilities.

In 90% of all silver PUGs I end up doing more than 80% of the group dps, while tanking and healing, to have a reasonable chance to get this done in less than 30 minutes. I am glad to have at least a tank sometimes so it leaves me doing just the healing and the dps.

I my opinion some people just don't get it, that being a good DD is the most demanding job in this game (unlike in other MMOs), but thousands still think they are DDs.

My personal nightmare are DDs with bow/ranged builds, pulling and dpsing from 28 meters (standing close and in the healing circle would be just too easy I guess...) and spreading all mobs over the place, while screaming "HEAL!!!!!" in chat.

LaiTash · September 2016

So you're descending into a dark, scary, mysterious dungeon probably infested with deadly evil creatures, bandits, and cultists of all sorts with a group of people you don't know, never met before and probably never talked with and you have absolutely no idea whether they can be trusted or not and what do you expect to happen?

I say try the old-fashioned socialization. You have 5 guilds to join, not all of them must be there just for trading.

ArchMikem · September 2016

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

I think the timer just needs to go. ZOS just needs to take away to safety helmets for the ah.... special players. The ones the believe they are fully and completely entitled to getting carried. If you refuse to carry them, then you are a scum of the earth ELITIST.

I've been carried before, and probably didn't really realize it at the time. It was one of my very first dungeons. I was the Healer, a Magicka Sorc with a mid rank Resto staff skill line, so I'm positive I was carried, but the group didn't complain. I don't expect others to carry me though, I do try my best and I've even clinched several Boss fights when the other three guys got wiped. (thank you jesus beam...) But yeah, nothing wrong with carrying if it's needed, but it shouldn't be expected.

MattT1988 · September 2016

Queuing for a role you have no intention of playing should be a bannable offence.

RajinPVP · September 2016

MattT1988 wrote: »

Queuing for a role you have no intention of playing should be a bannable offence.

yeah .. You should work with zos i heard they are hiring clowns like you.. Anyways.. Normal dungeon is easy tho i dont mind people queing up with a roles which they dont do coz i know i can adjust to it but veteran dungeons is a different story..