Templar/Block PVP Build Balance thoughts

Kyoic · August 2016

So, everyone seems to be running Malubeth/Reactive magicka templars. How do we balance them so they can't stand in the middle of 20 people and not die?

- Option 1: Extended Ritual/Ritual of Retribution needs to not purify alchemical poisons, with Purge/Efficient Purge being the only purify for poisons.
- Option 2: Add another special reagent spot that adds the effect "Unpurgable" while reducing the time of a poison slightly. (Poisons affect every class except Templars)
- A craft-able poison that increases the cost of blocking by 60% for 6sec at least. (This only affects block builds, skilled players/dps builds won't care but it gives an option against those who just stand there.)
- Guard and its morphs should turn off your stamina recovery while activated. (PVE would be unaffected due to DK tanks using Battle Rush/Pots for sustain, which is also the original effect from the pts when Guard was changed.)
- Malubeth should grant Major Mending, not just a 30% healing buff. It would be useful on classes that don't get Major Mending without making the classes that do have it immortal.

I feel like if these changes were added the 24 man with 16 Heal Tanks wouldn't be so viable, as well as bringing back some small scale pvp as well as keeping pve untouched.
Any thoughts?

RedFireDisco · August 2016

I've fought a few malucancercheese build, they can't do any damage. It's not an issue for me. Make yourself tanky and come at me with your 1500 weapon/spell damage lol.

susmitds · August 2016

RedFireDisco wrote: »

I've fought a few malucancercheese build, they can't do any damage. It's not an issue for me. Make yourself tanky and come at me with your 1500 weapon/spell damage lol.

They are now using Storm Knight set on top of Malubeth and Reactive Armor which gives them crazy damage inspite of low spell damage.

Cinbri · August 2016

susmitds wrote: »

RedFireDisco wrote: »

I've fought a few malucancercheese build, they can't do any damage. It's not an issue for me. Make yourself tanky and come at me with your 1500 weapon/spell damage lol.

They are now using Storm Knight set on top of Malubeth and Reactive Armor which gives them crazy damage inspite of low spell damage.

You mean they use now another bugged set and thats why they are good...
Those thread worse with each day.

White wabbit · August 2016

I ve run a Magplar for awhile now and I hate this build really don't know why run it , have no issues with people suggesting how to counter it as long as you don't effect everyone else that doesn't run that build

Orchish · August 2016

They are tank/healers that do basically no dps. They are annoying to kill but are not in need of any nerf just because they cannot be killed in 20 seconds.

MalakithAlamahdi · August 2016

Yea, less make the last decent magicka class garbage as well.

For real though, the majority doesn't wear this junk and with these nerfs the Templar will be terrible to play. Ritual is one of the things that sets a Templar apart from other classes, with this nerf you'll just get permanently snared it get all your resources drawing before the fight even begins with these increase cost poisons.

Unpurgable would also be pure cancer, you would counter a whole class with just that, no thanks.

Increase block cost is also a stupid idea, magicka Templars have about 10-12k stamina at most. Not only do you also need to use that to dodge roll and break free, you stamina doesn't regen either when you block. I doubt most even have above 600 stamina regen. If the perma blockers anoy you then just walk away from them, it's not like they can kill any decent player.

Guard should turn of your stamina? The skill is already useless for most because you need to slot it on two bars. The only build that could use it perhaps sometimes are pure tanks and they need the regen.

Malubeth is also pure cancer, but all you need to do is put defile on them or use ranged attacks. Nerfing a whole class Into oblivion because of a certain set up is nonsense.

So no, I don't like cancer builds either but I have to disagree with all suggestions.

Edit: I noticed that i sound very angry in this post but I'm not, i like it when people come with suggestions, so don't take it personal

Kyoic · August 2016

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

Yea, less make the last decent magicka class garbage as well.

For real though, the majority doesn't wear this junk and with these nerfs the Templar will be terrible to play. Ritual is one of the things that sets a Templar apart from other classes, with this nerf you'll just get permanently snared it get all your resources drawing before the fight even begins with these increase cost poisons.

Unpurgable would also be pure cancer, you would counter a whole class with just that, no thanks.

Increase block cost is also a stupid idea, magicka Templars have about 10-12k stamina at most. Not only do you also need to use that to dodge roll and break free, you stamina doesn't regen either when you block. I doubt most even have above 600 stamina regen. If the perma blockers anoy you then just walk away from them, it's not like they can kill any decent player.

Guard should turn of your stamina? The skill is already useless for most because you need to slot it on two bars. The only build that could use it perhaps sometimes are pure tanks and they need the regen.

Malubeth is also pure cancer, but all you need to do is put defile on them or use ranged attacks. Nerfing a whole class Into oblivion because of a certain set up is nonsense.

So no, I don't like cancer builds either but I have to disagree with all suggestions.

1st thing, poisons affect every class in the game besides templars, so making it possible for poisons to work against them doesn't seem that bad to me. Unpurgable wouldn't do anything to the purify itself. You can still remove DoT's and snares, just not the poisons. Also by making Purge the only way to remove poisons, it would just mean you got your Major Mending from Channeled Focus instead of both the rune and Ritual. Meaning you would have to decide to run a guaranteed purify, or a Snare, Heal Buff, HoT, and Synergy Heal. (That's all from one skill btw.)

2nd thing, block cost increase poisons would only affect block cast BoL on non-tank Templars (The meta being, "I'll keep myself alive until my friends get here.") You could still survive by using Mist Form with LoS and heal in between. I know because that is what I do. It would however make it possible to finish these block tanks without a 24 man group and Siege.
Also take into consideration that block increase poisons are situational and aren't useful against most builds so not everyone would run them.

Walking away from a tank healer is fine, but when there are between 10-15 of them in a group of 24 you can't kill anyone.

When they run Guard they can keep someone alive indefinitely no matter how many defile attacks you run and it costs them nothing. The damage you receive from Guard is so negligent you don't even notice your health move.

Malubeth needs this change, it doesn't ruin a whole class to make its heal buff "Major Mending" what it sounds like is, "No don't nerf MY build."

These changes don't nerf an entire class, it gives an option against one of the most overpowered group tools that exist right now.

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2016

This is what I hate about gear sets, they screw with actual skills. Also, usually I feel like the 5pc reward on a lot of gear sets ought to be ACTUAL skills. I'd like to point out this is my feeling on a lot of MMO's that I've played. I get what they're trying to do with gear sets, but I don't know, it never felt right to me. It would also be more interesting if these abilities and enchanting were something we could be more creative with. For instance where is the ability to double-cast an enchantment in the Enchanting skill line? They could have easily done something like this and still balanced the numbers to something reasonable. This would have created a smoother progression with enchantments. The same holds true of gear sets, I think it would have made crafting more interesting if the actual set bonuses were something the gear creators could build. They could easily have made rules behind the sets, and they could have made things like the Ant head a 'shell' that the builder could work around. Ultimately though, I'm not really a big fan of procs that pop out powers. Its fun, but I'd rather see players summon a daedroth than a gear set doing it. I realize there's precedence for it in the series, but it just feels wrong that we have so many master wizards that are running around that hobnob with Shalidor and can't summon a damn daedroth for themselves.

Ron_Burgundy_79 · August 2016

Kyoic wrote: »

So, everyone seems to be running Malubeth/Reactive magicka templars. How do we balance them so they can't stand in the middle of 20 people and not die?

- Option 1: Extended Ritual/Ritual of Retribution needs to not purify alchemical poisons, with Purge/Efficient Purge being the only purify for poisons.
- Option 2: Add another special reagent spot that adds the effect "Unpurgable" while reducing the time of a poison slightly. (Poisons affect every class except Templars)
- A craft-able poison that increases the cost of blocking by 60% for 6sec at least. (This only affects block builds, skilled players/dps builds won't care but it gives an option against those who just stand there.)
- Guard and its morphs should turn off your stamina recovery while activated. (PVE would be unaffected due to DK tanks using Battle Rush/Pots for sustain, which is also the original effect from the pts when Guard was changed.)
- Malubeth should grant Major Mending, not just a 30% healing buff. It would be useful on classes that don't get Major Mending without making the classes that do have it immortal.

I feel like if these changes were added the 24 man with 16 Heal Tanks wouldn't be so viable, as well as bringing back some small scale pvp as well as keeping pve untouched.
Any thoughts?

Dear Non-templars,

How about we quit asking for templar nerfs, and instead ask for the broken sets (Malubeth/reactive) to be fixed.

Sincerely,

A templar that doesnt use broken sets or 5 pc heavy armor

P.S. Poisons are already OP, so sure, let's add one that can't be countered in any way. That's logical.

Forestd16b14_ESO · August 2016

Funny how damage in this game is so horrible balanced and no one says anything about it but when tanks finally start to become some what good again (although be cheesy cause of "those players") every one throws a fit and start to kick and scream nerf.

Yes reactive and Malubeth is cheesy but maybe it wouldn't be cheesy and the must have build for PvP if damage was you know balanced out.

Kyoic · August 2016

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Dear Non-templars,

How about we quit asking for templar nerfs, and instead ask for the broken sets (Malubeth/reactive) to be fixed.

Sincerely,

A templar that doesnt use broken sets or 5 pc heavy armor

P.S. Poisons are already OP, so sure, let's add one that can't be countered in any way. That's logical.

I play Mag Templar, and fight Mag Templar. Templar has too much compared to other classes.
Poisons affect EVERY OTHER CLASS besides Templar.
Their major mending is a 5 negative purify, with a snare over a huge area.
When people cried about Mag Sorc they added Shield Breaker, Shattering Blows, and reduced the time to 6 seconds. I say a few possible suggestions to bring Mag Templar back into the realm of mortals and everyone acts like the world would end.

1v1 isn't the problem, its small and large scale where you can't finish fights because block casting BoL keeps everyone alive forever. Running a poison for block increase makes Left Trigger builds a fight you can win while you're being attacked from all sides. Not to mention it wouldn't affect players that can fight without just blocking forever.

You're another person who's argument for class balance is, "Don't nerf my build!"

Elara_Northwind · August 2016

I am a templar and I don't wear these sets because I like to actually kill people

My friend and I came across one of these Maulbeth/Reactive templars yesterday in Imperial City. We couldn't touch him, but he literally did no damage to us either, so in the end, I gave him a boo and moved on. The best part about this is that I received probably a world record for horrible whispers from grumpy reds that day, and yet I was playing fairly with just 2 other people, and they had an unkillable healer following them around

I wish that these item sets could just be deleted from the game because the idiots running around wearing them are giving templars a bad name... Nerfing an entire class because of armour sets is ridiculous.

dodgehopper_ESO · August 2016

Kyoic wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Dear Non-templars,

How about we quit asking for templar nerfs, and instead ask for the broken sets (Malubeth/reactive) to be fixed.

Sincerely,

A templar that doesnt use broken sets or 5 pc heavy armor

P.S. Poisons are already OP, so sure, let's add one that can't be countered in any way. That's logical.

I play Mag Templar, and fight Mag Templar. Templar has too much compared to other classes.
Poisons affect EVERY OTHER CLASS besides Templar.
Their major mending is a 5 negative purify, with a snare over a huge area.
When people cried about Mag Sorc they added Shield Breaker, Shattering Blows, and reduced the time to 6 seconds. I say a few possible suggestions to bring Mag Templar back into the realm of mortals and everyone acts like the world would end.

1v1 isn't the problem, its small and large scale where you can't finish fights because block casting BoL keeps everyone alive forever. Running a poison for block increase makes Left Trigger builds a fight you can win while you're being attacked from all sides. Not to mention it wouldn't affect players that can fight without just blocking forever.

You're another person who's argument for class balance is, "Don't nerf my build!"

Give Templars real and serious CC then. There are tradeoffs that no one cares to bring up or consider. Templar is not the demigod that everyone who doesn't play Templar makes it out to be. In all honesty I find Nightblade far more powerful than a Templar, and equally capable of doing just about anything a Templar does (except self cleanse, but a Nightblade can still Efficient Cleanse). People hem and haw about Templar's cleanse, not taking into factor the rest of the class, or the fact that a huge portion of the passives are worthless, or that many of the skills remain broken or garbage. I'm not complaining about Nightblade (actually I think its the example all classes should be held to) but I can't think of a single skill that is bad in the Nightblade lineup. You actually have to make a choice with this class and I like that. If you're so concerned about Tanks in Cyrodiil, for f's sake make one. Its not hard to do - and it can be done with at least 3 of the 4 classes, and I'm pretty sure it can be done with all 4.

Ron_Burgundy_79 · August 2016

Kyoic wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Dear Non-templars,

How about we quit asking for templar nerfs, and instead ask for the broken sets (Malubeth/reactive) to be fixed.

Sincerely,

A templar that doesnt use broken sets or 5 pc heavy armor

P.S. Poisons are already OP, so sure, let's add one that can't be countered in any way. That's logical.

I play Mag Templar, and fight Mag Templar. Templar has too much compared to other classes.
Poisons affect EVERY OTHER CLASS besides Templar.
Their major mending is a 5 negative purify, with a snare over a huge area.
When people cried about Mag Sorc they added Shield Breaker, Shattering Blows, and reduced the time to 6 seconds. I say a few possible suggestions to bring Mag Templar back into the realm of mortals and everyone acts like the world would end.

1v1 isn't the problem, its small and large scale where you can't finish fights because block casting BoL keeps everyone alive forever. Running a poison for block increase makes Left Trigger builds a fight you can win while you're being attacked from all sides. Not to mention it wouldn't affect players that can fight without just blocking forever.

You're another person who's argument for class balance is, "Don't nerf my build!"

1. You seem to imply that magplars are the most powerful class. They are simply on par with stamina.
2. It takes multiple people to kill a good player running a tanky setup. Focus the healers first in group play.
3. BoL and purifying ritual (now extended ritual) have been nerfed multiple times. I've listed the nerfs out multiple times on the forums.
4. Left trigger builds are doing no damage. The easiest answer to the left trigger is use an unblockable cc (fear), or a silence (negate).
5. If you had thoroughly read my post, you would have noticed that I'm not one of those builds. I don't run malubeth. I don't run reactive. I run 5 pc light armor.

All I'm trying to say is that templars have been repeatedly nerfed. Right now they're the only magicka class on par with the stamina meta taking place in cyrodiil. Fix the broken sets and the malutard block builds will disappear.

Wreuntzylla · August 2016

SadieJoan wrote: »

I am a templar and I don't wear these sets because I like to actually kill people My friend and I came across one of these Maulbeth/Reactive templars yesterday in Imperial City. We couldn't touch him, but he literally did no damage to us either, so in the end, I gave him a boo and moved on. The best part about this is that I received probably a world record for horrible whispers from grumpy reds that day, and yet I was playing fairly with just 2 other people, and they had an unkillable healer following them around

I wish that these item sets could just be deleted from the game because the idiots running around wearing them are giving templars a bad name... Nerfing an entire class because of armour sets is ridiculous.

There unkillable mag DKs that are dumping moderate to heavy damage. I want to know how that's done.

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Kyoic wrote: »

Ron_Burgundy_79 wrote: »

Dear Non-templars,

How about we quit asking for templar nerfs, and instead ask for the broken sets (Malubeth/reactive) to be fixed.

Sincerely,

A templar that doesnt use broken sets or 5 pc heavy armor

P.S. Poisons are already OP, so sure, let's add one that can't be countered in any way. That's logical.

I play Mag Templar, and fight Mag Templar. Templar has too much compared to other classes.
Poisons affect EVERY OTHER CLASS besides Templar.
Their major mending is a 5 negative purify, with a snare over a huge area.
When people cried about Mag Sorc they added Shield Breaker, Shattering Blows, and reduced the time to 6 seconds. I say a few possible suggestions to bring Mag Templar back into the realm of mortals and everyone acts like the world would end.

1v1 isn't the problem, its small and large scale where you can't finish fights because block casting BoL keeps everyone alive forever. Running a poison for block increase makes Left Trigger builds a fight you can win while you're being attacked from all sides. Not to mention it wouldn't affect players that can fight without just blocking forever.

You're another person who's argument for class balance is, "Don't nerf my build!"

Give Templars real and serious CC then. There are tradeoffs that no one cares to bring up or consider. Templar is not the demigod that everyone who doesn't play Templar makes it out to be. In all honesty I find Nightblade far more powerful than a Templar, and equally capable of doing just about anything a Templar does (except self cleanse, but a Nightblade can still Efficient Cleanse). People hem and haw about Templar's cleanse, not taking into factor the rest of the class, or the fact that a huge portion of the passives are worthless, or that many of the skills remain broken or garbage. I'm not complaining about Nightblade (actually I think its the example all classes should be held to) but I can't think of a single skill that is bad in the Nightblade lineup. You actually have to make a choice with this class and I like that. If you're so concerned about Tanks in Cyrodiil, for f's sake make one. Its not hard to do - and it can be done with at least 3 of the 4 classes, and I'm pretty sure it can be done with all 4.

NBs are not that hard except for the 4sec unbreakable fear. I don't understand why that hasn't been fixed yet.

Joy_Division · August 2016

Another day, another poster whining how difficult is is to kill a tank build that does no damage.

If you want to bring anything "back into the realm of mortals," why don't you start looking at the 2H stam set proc deaths that rely on the very poison that you want to buff.

DHale · August 2016

Balance a build that has high survivability and no damage sounds pretty balanced to me. My stam DK can survive much longer than my magplar. It also does lots of damage too.

MalakithAlamahdi · August 2016

Kyoic wrote: »

MalakithAlamahdi wrote: »

Yea, less make the last decent magicka class garbage as well.

For real though, the majority doesn't wear this junk and with these nerfs the Templar will be terrible to play. Ritual is one of the things that sets a Templar apart from other classes, with this nerf you'll just get permanently snared it get all your resources drawing before the fight even begins with these increase cost poisons.

Unpurgable would also be pure cancer, you would counter a whole class with just that, no thanks.

Increase block cost is also a stupid idea, magicka Templars have about 10-12k stamina at most. Not only do you also need to use that to dodge roll and break free, you stamina doesn't regen either when you block. I doubt most even have above 600 stamina regen. If the perma blockers anoy you then just walk away from them, it's not like they can kill any decent player.

Guard should turn of your stamina? The skill is already useless for most because you need to slot it on two bars. The only build that could use it perhaps sometimes are pure tanks and they need the regen.

Malubeth is also pure cancer, but all you need to do is put defile on them or use ranged attacks. Nerfing a whole class Into oblivion because of a certain set up is nonsense.

So no, I don't like cancer builds either but I have to disagree with all suggestions.

1st thing, poisons affect every class in the game besides templars, so making it possible for poisons to work against them doesn't seem that bad to me. Unpurgable wouldn't do anything to the purify itself. You can still remove DoT's and snares, just not the poisons. Also by making Purge the only way to remove poisons, it would just mean you got your Major Mending from Channeled Focus instead of both the rune and Ritual. Meaning you would have to decide to run a guaranteed purify, or a Snare, Heal Buff, HoT, and Synergy Heal. (That's all from one skill btw.)

2nd thing, block cost increase poisons would only affect block cast BoL on non-tank Templars (The meta being, "I'll keep myself alive until my friends get here.") You could still survive by using Mist Form with LoS and heal in between. I know because that is what I do. It would however make it possible to finish these block tanks without a 24 man group and Siege.
Also take into consideration that block increase poisons are situational and aren't useful against most builds so not everyone would run them.

Walking away from a tank healer is fine, but when there are between 10-15 of them in a group of 24 you can't kill anyone.

When they run Guard they can keep someone alive indefinitely no matter how many defile attacks you run and it costs them nothing. The damage you receive from Guard is so negligent you don't even notice your health move.

Malubeth needs this change, it doesn't ruin a whole class to make its heal buff "Major Mending" what it sounds like is, "No don't nerf MY build."

These changes don't nerf an entire class, it gives an option against one of the most overpowered group tools that exist right now.

Making poisons unpurgable is still a stupid idea, they are OP and will effect every magicka class as well. We don't need more stamina spoon-feeding.

Perma block builds are generally very bad in the offensive, just ignore them in a group untill you've killed the rest. For the healers you have things like stunns, fears, negate. A group with supportive classes and builds in it should be hard to kill, it doesn't need a nerf.

The thing with guard is not true, and barely anyone slots it for a reason. It's a bad skill considering you waste 2 slots to use it. I rarely ever see a person use it in the first place. Sure, it can be nice in certain situations, but it doesn't make anyone unkillable and it simply isn't OP.

I said Templars don't need such nerfs, they are the only decent magicka class out there right now. Malubeth needs to be changed, I've posted that before in a thread. And no, I don't use it. I run 5 light and 2 heavy. 5 kag, 3 willpower and 3-4 magnus. Not everyone who disagrees with you is using the build you complain about.