It's time to update Vigor

Solariken · August 2016

Vigor is a prominent source of imbalance in this game. It's SUPER strong - it can easily out-heal incoming DPS from multiple characters on its own. Magicka-centric characters have nothing to compete with this and is a major reason magicka is underperforming and underrepresented in Cyrodiil.

ZOS, I hope you will consider this skill for the upcoming One Tamriel DLC - a decent option is to scale Vigor with health and cap it at the value of your lowest max resource pool to limit it's power for high weapon damage builds while also making it useful for magicka-centric characters.

I would love to have this healing utility available to my magicka toons, especially my magsorc, which feels incredibly gimped in self healing potential relative to other classes. I don't even care if it costs stamina - the cost is already very reasonable. Also, it would open up the playstyle for magicka by allowing less shield spamming.

TL;DR - reduce the overall effectiveness of Vigor and make it useful to magicka-centric players.

@Wrobel I'm holding on to hope that you guys plan to do something about the balance situation in One Tamriel.

susmitds · August 2016

It is the only reason stamina DPS can even do vMA. Also, nearly all Magicka heals are ate much better.

WreckfulAbandon · August 2016

Major Vitality and any additional healing buffs outside of Major/Minor Mending should be scrapped and we would see more reasonable healing capabilities in Cyrodiil.

Solariken · August 2016

susmitds wrote: »

It is the only reason stamina DPS can even do vMA. Also, nearly all Magicka heals are ate much better.

First, that's not true, I've done it on my Stamplar with Rally only.

Second, I'm not saying it should be gutted, I love the skill. I just want it available to everyone and more universally powerful.

Also, outside of magplar, magicka classes have to keep DPS uptime on a target to get any significant healing. Stamina has Vigor and Rally which are the strongest direct heals in the game. How does it make sense that someone who doesn't wield magic can burst themselves back to full health from near zero in just a few seconds while magic users are forced to carry a resto stick (which also needs updated, that skill line sucks).

Xvorg · August 2016

susmitds wrote: »

It is the only reason stamina DPS can even do vMA. Also, nearly all Magicka heals are ate much better.

Only if you slot a resto staff

susmitds · August 2016

Solariken wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

It is the only reason stamina DPS can even do vMA. Also, nearly all Magicka heals are ate much better.

First, that's not true, I've done it on my Stamplar with Rally only.

Second, I'm not saying it should be gutted, I love the skill. I just want it available to everyone and more universally powerful.

Also, outside of magplar, magicka classes have to keep DPS uptime on a target to get any significant healing. Stamina has Vigor and Rally which are the strongest direct heals in the game. How does it make sense that someone who doesn't wield magic can burst themselves back to full health from near zero in just a few seconds while magic users are forced to carry a resto stick (which also needs updated, that skill line sucks).

Well, technically you can do it by dying over and over again, but that's not competitive. And all restro skills are stronger than Vigor and Rally is the weakest burst heal in-game and the only one, that needs charging. And in that case, stamina should have shields as well.

Waffennacht · August 2016

I dislike this idea and have a plethora of logical reasons as to why. As most of these have already been covered in many threads before, I see no reason to spend the energy retyping them here.

Solariken · August 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

I dislike this idea and have a plethora of logical reasons as to why. As most of these have already been covered in many threads before, I see no reason to spend the energy retyping them here.

@Waffennacht well feel free to submit your own ideas, unless you prefer a state of incredible and senseless imbalance. This is a conversation worth having.

Thanks for stopping in I guess.

Silver_Strider · August 2016

Xvorg wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

It is the only reason stamina DPS can even do vMA. Also, nearly all Magicka heals are ate much better.

Only if you slot a resto staff

Bullock
I cleared vMA on my Magblade without a Resto staff before.

Vythri · August 2016

Solariken wrote: »

First, that's not true, I've done it on my Stamplar with Rally only.

So you want to force all stamina players into 2H? Thanks, but no thanks. I'd actually like there to be more build diversity, not less.

WillhelmBlack · August 2016

I have to get behind this thread. There's no way every single stamina build should have bigger heals than a fricking Magicka DK, it's ridiculous. Magicka equals spells and utility, Stamina means raw damage and power. It shouldn't be everything which it currently is.

I usually play my Stamplar without it but last night I tried it out again because it was literally 3v20 across the map and in my Ritual the heal tick was insane, some players couldn't even out DPS it. It's also making Stam DK literally unkillable because they too get the major Mending buff. Not even close to balanced.

Solariken · August 2016

Vythri wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

First, that's not true, I've done it on my Stamplar with Rally only.

So you want to force all stamina players into 2H? Thanks, but no thanks. I'd actually like there to be more build diversity, not less.

@Vythri Stop putting words in my mouth, I didn't say that. I think I made it clear that I love Vigor and want it to be useful to more builds (especially magicka players) and also having an upper limit on power across the board.

Solariken · August 2016

WillhelmBlack wrote: »

I have to get behind this thread. There's no way every single stamina build should have bigger heals than a fricking Magicka DK, it's ridiculous. Magicka equals spells and utility, Stamina means raw damage and power. It shouldn't be everything which it currently is.

I usually play my Stamplar without it but last night I tried it out again because it was literally 3v20 across the map and in my Ritual the heal tick was insane, some players couldn't even out DPS it. It's also making Stam DK literally unkillable because they too get the major Mending buff. Not even close to balanced.

^ QFT

Waffennacht · August 2016

Alrighty, my points would be:

1. Without Vigor, stam classes become extremely imbalanced in their own group. Sorcs especially have No Access to stam heals, in PvP draining shot is a joke for a heal and then you have two HOTs (combined equal what rally does single handedly) in DW and then Rally.

Meaning to have access to any heals a stam Sorc (prob NBs too) you would HAVE to run 2H (which it is already, but 2H as a healing utility for a build is an oxymoron) even then it's sub par alone.

2. Only DKs and Temps have access to major mending, already if vigor didn't exist you put pressure on players to drop at least one class choice. Now you almost force players to be a temp or DK in order to heal. Limiting access to vigor doesn't hurt a temp or DK nearly as much as a sorc and NB.

3. PvE content, sure in groups that know what they are doing self heals are not necessary and sometimes frowned upon. Removing the abilities that allow for PUGs to compete (try going with a specialized build with a PUG and you won't survive), most people are already complaining about elitism, without such moves as vigor more class discrimination will happen (stam sorc gtfo etc...)

4. Vigor itself is not an issue at all. A 1k tick isn't saving anyone from 8k jabs. But when you stack major mending vitality malubeth minor forms and CPs with offensive hots (lookin at you Templars) THEN you get redonkulous heals. But Only temps and even more defensively specialized DKs can do this (only temps can do this and still have such high offensive capabilities) - this is also because you have at least 2 froms of heal buffs and only one form of health debuff

Im all for adding moves, especially to the magicka line. There clearly is not balance (though I have a hard time believing "balance" is a goal) but I am not for nerfing or removal of abilities. Upgrade the mage's guild line. Wtf is equilibrium? I mean Come On!

Solariken · August 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

Alrighty, my points would be:

1. Without Vigor, stam classes become extremely imbalanced in their own group. Sorcs especially have No Access to stam heals, in PvP draining shot is a joke for a heal and then you have two HOTs (combined equal what rally does single handedly) in DW and then Rally.

Meaning to have access to any heals a stam Sorc (prob NBs too) you would HAVE to run 2H (which it is already, but 2H as a healing utility for a build is an oxymoron) even then it's sub par alone.

2. Only DKs and Temps have access to major mending, already if vigor didn't exist you put pressure on players to drop at least one class choice. Now you almost force players to be a temp or DK in order to heal. Limiting access to vigor doesn't hurt a temp or DK nearly as much as a sorc and NB.

3. PvE content, sure in groups that know what they are doing self heals are not necessary and sometimes frowned upon. Removing the abilities that allow for PUGs to compete (try going with a specialized build with a PUG and you won't survive), most people are already complaining about elitism, without such moves as vigor more class discrimination will happen (stam sorc gtfo etc...)

4. Vigor itself is not an issue at all. A 1k tick isn't saving anyone from 8k jabs. But when you stack major mending vitality malubeth minor forms and CPs with offensive hots (lookin at you Templars) THEN you get redonkulous heals. But Only temps and even more defensively specialized DKs can do this (only temps can do this and still have such high offensive capabilities) - this is also because you have at least 2 froms of heal buffs and only one form of health debuff

Im all for adding moves, especially to the magicka line. There clearly is not balance (though I have a hard time believing "balance" is a goal) but I am not for nerfing or removal of abilities. Upgrade the mage's guild line. Wtf is equilibrium? I mean Come On!

.

@Waffennacht

1. I don't want stamina characters to lose Vigor. Never said that. However, it's stupid lame that it scales up so nicely with that 6k weapon damage for absolutely insane heals.

2. IMO Major Mending for Temp/DK is balanced pretty well against sorc/NB damage evasion/mitigation mechanics. Nothing would change there.

3. Again, I don't want it taken away from anyone. It should be ALSO accessible to magicka. It is too strong at current because of how high the HPS is on high damage builds.

4. A 1k tick is laughably low, even without Major Mending. Regardless, part of the strength of Vigor for stamina toons is pairing it with Major Evasion and constant roll dodge.

You did hit the nail on the head with your last comment though - it's pretty clear that balance has been blatantly tilted to stamina this patch for reasons unknown. I've seen FOTM issues in every MMO I've played, but Wrobel has gone bonkers with ESO. It's like he just wants it to be a sword swinging Twitch game with only one-shots and burst heals.

Forestd16b14_ESO · August 2016

So nerf stamina thread got it........... So where are you getting these what ever you wanna call it that vigor is the most OP healing in the game ? It is a hot as in it heals ever second not at once like most magicka base healing and most magicka base healing has secondary effects to go with the healing.

Seriously vigor is fine how it is as now and there's no reason at all for it to be touched. Stop whining already.

RinaldoGandolphi · August 2016

I see things like this

1. Stam skills are 20% cheaper then their mag counterparts.
2. Stam skills do about 10-12% more damage on average
3. Stam builds have far more access to dodge roll and break free
4. Stam builds get root and snare immunity as well as Major Evasion

They shouldn't get Vigor...Stam should do more damage(as it does now) at the cost of survuvability. Magicka should do less damage but have better healing. Give Stam easier access to Major Defilr and this is fair.

As it stands in pvp stamina is just flat out better all around and they get to use their magic pool as a worry free dump for utility getting the best of both worlds whole magic builds get lesser damage, a 6 second shield, and inferior heals tied to a stick...sound real balanced there right? Lol

DUTCH_REAPER · August 2016

Stop stop stop.

Leave vigor alone and fix the mDK heal, and for crying out loud ZOS re-evaluate the resto skill line. You know what your magic pvpers want? We want a reliable skill that has an equal heal as vigor. Preferably not on a resto skill line. You know...so we can wield any weapon we choose like Stam does with vigor. J/s

Wreuntzylla · August 2016

Major mending is not needed for 4.5k vigor ticks. It just makes it easier to get there....

Xsorus · August 2016

Vigor has absolutely zero to do with Stamina being powerful in PvP right now..

You guys at this point are throwing darts at the board hoping something will stick..

bebynnag · August 2016

if vigour scaled with health people would complain about max health sunshield maulbeth TankLars.... EVEN more than they already do!

Omgwtfbbq321 · August 2016

I have always been under the impression that Vigor was balanced by the fact it was a HOT, but didn’t require a specific weapon. Magcika classes have a choice of HOT, instant heals and damage shield heals, but must equip a resto staff to use them.

Lately though, I have seen quite a few times where Stamina classes can heal from execute range to basically full in the time of a dodge roll or 2. This tends to be more efficient that even my Rapid Regen or Healing Ward. I am assuming it’s something to do with the fact you can stack weapon damage > 8k plus extra buffs like Major Mending and such.

Maybe we could extend Vigor, but lower the per-tick heal forcing a longer wait on the defensive before reengaging? Not sure what to do, but I do feel it can, in some instances, over preform.

If I had the choice, I would choose a Magicka Vigor over using a resto staff anytime.

Vangy · August 2016

Omgwtfbbq321 wrote: »

I have always been under the impression that Vigor was balanced by the fact it was a HOT, but didn’t require a specific weapon. Magcika classes have a choice of HOT, instant heals and damage shield heals, but must equip a resto staff to use them.

Lately though, I have seen quite a few times where Stamina classes can heal from execute range to basically full in the time of a dodge roll or 2. This tends to be more efficient that even my Rapid Regen or Healing Ward. I am assuming it’s something to do with the fact you can stack weapon damage > 8k plus extra buffs like Major Mending and such.

Maybe we could extend Vigor, but lower the per-tick heal forcing a longer wait on the defensive before reengaging? Not sure what to do, but I do feel it can, in some instances, over preform.

If I had the choice, I would choose a Magicka Vigor over using a resto staff anytime.

Most balanced comment ive seen so far.... Make vigor scale of health is ridiculous. Magicka dosent need vigor. Vigor is a little strong yeah, but making it scale off health will gut it. Im thinking make it heal over a period of 2 or 3 seconds longer with the same total heal amount and see how it affects stamina survivability. That's what we have weekly patches for yes? A little nudge in balancing and re-adjust on a per week basis if necessary.

Vaoh · August 2016

susmitds wrote: »

It is the only reason stamina DPS can even do vMA. Also, nearly all Magicka heals are ate much better.

Not totally true.

If your DPS is good enough, you don't actually need Vigor. Other sources of lesser healing are enough to keep you alive.

The more you know

olsborg · August 2016

Hardened ward, healing ward, dampen magicka, all of wich is better for staying alive then vigor imo. You can spam magicka heals and wards to your hearts content, they will shield you and heal you over and over again. Try doing the same with vigor and any stamina heal...you cant, all of them are HoTs and does not stack with itself.

Sharee · August 2016

olsborg wrote: »

Hardened ward, healing ward, dampen magicka, all of wich is better for staying alive then vigor imo. You can spam magicka heals and wards to your hearts content, they will shield you and heal you over and over again. Try doing the same with vigor and any stamina heal...you cant, all of them are HoTs and does not stack with itself.

You are comparing standing still spamming vigor to standing still spamming shields, with one enemy attacking you. Then what you say is true.

In a real fight however, cast vigor, anim cancel it with a roll dodge (and get a 100% dodge chance for the duration), and you get much more health back than a magicka spamming shields (and continue to be under heavy DPS for the duration, since they can't afford dodge rolling).

And as the number of attackers increases, roll dodge defense doesn't care about how many attacks it evades, while the shield gets overwhelmed.

hrothbern · August 2016

olsborg wrote: »

Hardened ward, healing ward, dampen magicka, all of wich is better for staying alive then vigor imo. You can spam magicka heals and wards to your hearts content, they will shield you and heal you over and over again. Try doing the same with vigor and any stamina heal...you cant, all of them are HoTs and does not stack with itself.

+1

For personal protection/heal Magicka has Shields whereas Stamina has Vigor heal
Duration comparison is 6 vs 5 seconds.
And the comparison in size should be made with uncritted Vigor heal versus the Shield size

For group protection/heal Magicka has heals and Stamina has Vigor heal

The biggest difference is that Vigor does both personal as group protection

Draxys · August 2016

Here's a novel idea: soft caps.

Sharee · August 2016

Xsorus wrote: »

Vigor has absolutely zero to do with Stamina being powerful in PvP right now..

I completely disagree. The ability to get from near execute range to full HP by casting vigor and rolling twice is the primary reason why stamina builds are so powerful. Right now, they can easily negate any damage that does not kill them in 2 seconds, which allows them to stay continually on the offensive.

Without vigor, any pure damage focused stam build would be forced to retreat if he failed to kill his target fast. If that wouldn't make him less powerful then i don't know what would.

olsborg · August 2016

Sharee wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Hardened ward, healing ward, dampen magicka, all of wich is better for staying alive then vigor imo. You can spam magicka heals and wards to your hearts content, they will shield you and heal you over and over again. Try doing the same with vigor and any stamina heal...you cant, all of them are HoTs and does not stack with itself.

You are comparing standing still spamming vigor to standing still spamming shields, with one enemy attacking you. Then what you say is true.

In a real fight however, cast vigor, anim cancel it with a roll dodge (and get a 100% dodge chance for the duration), and you get much more health back than a magicka spamming shields (and continue to be under heavy DPS for the duration, since they can't afford dodge rolling).

And as the number of attackers increases, roll dodge defense doesn't care about how many attacks it evades, while the shield gets overwhelmed.

There are certain situations where one will outshine the other, thats just how it is. However, dodging has a stacking cost increase on it and you cant rly dodge too often without gimping your stamina, shields does not have anything like that. There will almost always be some kind of counter-argument to any argument, but my personal opinion is vigor should under no circuimstances be nerfed in any way, atleast when it comes to selfheal.

Oakmontowls_ESO · August 2016

Eh just change vigor to be a rapid regen clone complete with the much smaller ticks and call it a day. And maybe make the other morph a mutagen clone as well to give stamina a purge.