Don't understand the hate about RNG boxes...

TheAngelofDeath99 · August 2016

Unless there's specific gear that you can only get from them, then I don't understand why people say they're gonna leave because of it. It's not like you have to buy it...

wayfarerx · August 2016

Hearing the words "real money" and "lockboxes" together in the same sentence will trigger a good portion of the gamer community due to the absolutely horrific and predatory practices of a number of game developers, particularly in the free-to-play and mobile game genres. So a lot of people are freaking out on principal.

If ZOS sticks to what they've said and the crown lockboxes are only a way to gamble for old limited-time cosmetics then most of the sound and fury should die down. However, they're walking a fine line here, it would be very easy for them to misstep and drive away a good chunk of their players.

Lucius_Aelius · August 2016

It's the principle of the thing, many people don't like the idea of supporting a practice that they're morally against, and there are some very valid moral arguments against the institution of real-money gambling (which is essentially what this will be, even if it's not legally gambling). Now that it's being introduced, any money given to ZOS will potentially be seen as validation for this practice even if people aren't buying the lockboxes themselves. It's like people not going to a store because they don't like how that store obtains some of its items, even if you don't buy any such item yourself you're still giving money to people doing something that you don't agree with which will potentially help them to continue doing it.

I for one will not be going anywhere (and won't be buying any lockboxes), but I'd be lying if I said it didn't bother me that ZOS is resorting to what I consider shady tactics to make money. Many great games do this though and more may in the future regardless of what I do, so my choice is to play an entertaining game or shoot myself in the foot just to feel morally superior, and I don't think it's so shady that I'm inclined towards the latter even if I don't think it's right.

That being said I entirely understand and support anyone that decides they want to take a stand on this, especially if anyone has been affected by gambling problems personally you can hardly blame them for being disgusted, from their perspective it's almost like their favorite game just announced it'd be selling crack right after they got out of rehab. An exaggeration from my perspective sure, but I've never been an addict so who am I to judge?

I've played ME3 and they had this system too, except that actually was pay2win, and I wouldn't trade the fun times I had in that for anything. So it is what it is, it's not ideal but neither is life, and this isn't something I feel too bothered by in the end. Each to their own though, and some people have very compelling arguments about why this is immoral, so it's not our place to put them down for making whatever decision is best for them.

Uphz · August 2016

There are several reasons, but one is that no one knows exactly what is going to be in these boxes. It could just be mounts and costumes etc that have been in the crown store before but people are afraid that these boxes will be the only way to get new mounts/costumes as well.

Garldeen · August 2016

Uphz wrote: »

There are several reasons, but one is that no one knows exactly what is going to be in these boxes. It could just be mounts and costumes etc that have been in the crown store before but people are afraid that these boxes will be the only way to get new mounts/costumes as well.

They will be. They have said there will be exclusive items in them.

wayfarerx · August 2016

wonkydog wrote: »

Uphz wrote: »

There are several reasons, but one is that no one knows exactly what is going to be in these boxes. It could just be mounts and costumes etc that have been in the crown store before but people are afraid that these boxes will be the only way to get new mounts/costumes as well.

They will be. They have said there will be exclusive items in them.

I have heard that they said the opposite, but all I have are second-hand reports from the event they did last weekend. Do you have a link by chance?

Graydon · August 2016

I sure don't get the panic and tinfoil hats.

Subscribers get monthly crowns, so essentially Crown Crates are free for us. Another perk for subscribring as there should be.

It's a game you all...
Not a lifestyle.

NewBlacksmurf · August 2016

Based on the information presented there's going to be changes to how a customer would obtain crown items.

Current : Go buy listed items

Future: but some existing items but all expired items will require a lottery box purchase
Another super exclusive lottery box will also be for better items including mounts

The main issues are:
1. Removing customer choice
2. Adding chance/gamble/lottery
3. Responding to the request to re-list expired items as lottery only to obtain
4. Increased cost to obtain items by only being able to play the lottery in hopes to get items

vyndral13preub18_ESO · August 2016

wayfarerx wrote: »

wonkydog wrote: »

Uphz wrote: »

There are several reasons, but one is that no one knows exactly what is going to be in these boxes. It could just be mounts and costumes etc that have been in the crown store before but people are afraid that these boxes will be the only way to get new mounts/costumes as well.

They will be. They have said there will be exclusive items in them.

I have heard that they said the opposite, but all I have are second-hand reports from the event they did last weekend. Do you have a link by chance?

Honestly i dont think it matters what they have said. If the lockboxes arent doing well enough exclusive items will find their way in there as a way to increase profits. If the lockboxes are doing really well exclusive items will find their way in there as a way to increase profits.

This is one item where i get in line with the doomsayers. You can not believe any company when it comes to these boxes. They are designed to take advantage of people. So that is what they do with them.

I will pay money in game for items i find interesting. I will not buy a chance to gamble for an item i find interesting.

MissBizz · August 2016

wayfarerx wrote: »

wonkydog wrote: »

Uphz wrote: »

There are several reasons, but one is that no one knows exactly what is going to be in these boxes. It could just be mounts and costumes etc that have been in the crown store before but people are afraid that these boxes will be the only way to get new mounts/costumes as well.

They will be. They have said there will be exclusive items in them.

I have heard that they said the opposite, but all I have are second-hand reports from the event they did last weekend. Do you have a link by chance?

@wayfarerx https://youtube.com/watch?v=4UcmPeXG7qQ I believe he talks about the boxes at about the 7 or 8 minute mark. Near the end he says there will be special mounts exclusive to them.

As for response to this thread, the exclusive items inside the box are the issue to me. For myself, a really awesome pet or mount is more important to me than a vMSA weapon (or anything like that). I don't play the game competively so those are not important to me in any way. How I do play is changing what mount I am on to match the scenery I'm in/by or what I am doing at the same time. Walking into some RP (although I don't RP myself) and I'll just sit and watch for a bit, I'll often throw on a costume appropriate to what's going on. Yup, it's "only cosmetic" but for myself, that is a very large portion of the game to me, and having these cosmetic items does improve how much I enjoy the game. I'd be very disheartened to see something I really love, and am forced to gamble to get it.

There's a TON of unknowns right now. For instance, the whole gem thing. If The drop rates are reasonable and these exclusive mounts/items ARE available for gems, and someone as myself may have a better chance of receiving more duplicates, maybe I can get that mount for about how much I pay for limited time stuff. There's a lot of unknowns that I will admit could change my view, although no matter what I feel I would still want to keep exclusive items out of them.

helgewjb16_ESO · August 2016

Graydon wrote: »

I sure don't get the panic and tinfoil hats.

Subscribers get monthly crowns, so essentially Crown Crates are free for us. Another perk for subscribring as there should be.

It's a game you all...
Not a lifestyle.

Crown Crates are not free for subscribers. You get a set amount of crowns related to how many months you're subscribing for. Difference between how it is today and how it is gonna become is that now you actually know how much those crowns are worth. You can look in the shop and see exactly what you can get for that amount. With these boxes you no longer knows, you can get lucky and as such feel they are worth more, or you can get some stupid stuff you don't want.

For me, it's the whole gambling element. I don't like it, I don't want to support it and that means not giving more money to ZOS. I still have some months left of my sub, but I'm struggling to find any motivation to keep playing. It might seem dramatic for you who obviously don't see it like that, but that's simply how I feel.

DHale · August 2016

I think while I see the point of view it's not a valid perspective. I am an RN in real life I see the effects of smoking and drinking. I can see a decision people are makings when they are young and naive knowing they will live the last years of life miserable and die a horrible death. It doesn't happen to everyone but to a large amount of people. If you see me it's bad you are in critical care. You are there because of your choices you chose to drink and to keep drinking or to smoke and to keep smoking.

Yes people are addicted to both nicotine and to alcohol and to gambling and it's an illness certainly but at a point you have to choose to walk a different path. No one can change us if we don't want to be changed. There is no such thing as shangrola or utopia. You are not free from consequences of gambling or smoking or drinking. Self discipline and personal responsibility are still the only cure for the rng of life. If you don't want to part with your hard earned money... then don't. But don't tell other people how to live or play a video game.

Wow · August 2016

@TheAngelofDeath99
Sure they said Lootboxes cosmetics only. But you can't tell what is going happen in the future. The existence of Lootboxes itself is a step towards Pay to win. It has happened with past games in similar fashion, with same exact initial promises.

First they said No plans for RNG Boxes.
Now they had plans for RNG Boxes.

Now they said No plans for P2Win stuffs inside the RNG Boxes.
Later you can tell it by yourself

There's many way to generate income for the game. How about selling some real good contents in crown shops? How about putting extra sweats in designing real good costumes, pets, or mounts? (You know the stuffs that make you goes like OMG that is very sexy on my toon I must get those!) If it's not enough put them behind Premium cosmetics price, if it's not enough put them behind bundle pack or something. Not enough? Put them behind time limit.

But instead we are getting Crown RNG Boxes.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · August 2016

DHale wrote: »

I think while I see the point of view it's not a valid perspective. I am an RN in real life I see the effects of smoking and drinking. I can see a decision people are makings when they are young and naive knowing they will live the last years of life miserable and die a horrible death. It doesn't happen to everyone but to a large amount of people. If you see me it's bad you are in critical care. You are there because of your choices you chose to drink and to keep drinking or to smoke and to keep smoking.

Yes people are addicted to both nicotine and to alcohol and to gambling and it's an illness certainly but at a point you have to choose to walk a different path. No one can change us if we don't want to be changed. There is no such thing as shangrola or utopia. You are not free from consequences of gambling or smoking or drinking. Self discipline and personal responsibility are still the only cure for the rng of life. If you don't want to part with your hard earned money... then don't. But don't tell other people how to live or play a video game.

For me it is about purchasing things i want. I want to be able to go to the store and buy apples. So when i get home i can eat apples. Not go to the store and buy a bag that has a small chance to have apples in it. So when i get home i can eat the chalk I got in my bag.

helgewjb16_ESO · August 2016

There is also one thing to remember that is universal about gambling, the house always wins. A few people will off course get some lucky rare drops or so, but for the vast majority this will simply be a money sink and the only enjoyment will be that small rush of excitement before you open a box. That excitement is allready in the game when you open chests and get loot from bosses, but in the future ZOS wants you to pay real money for the same thing. When they create some new cool looking stuff, where do you think they'll put it?

Recremen · August 2016

It's a complete betrayal of our relationship with the service provider. We stuck around even after it went nonsubscription and happily poured money into the Crown Store because it contained things we wanted and we could make reasonable decisions regarding whether or not a purchase was acceptable. This mount costs 1300 but is kind of gross? I'll pass, thanks. This mount costs 2500-5k, but is absolutely incredible/matches my hair/would look great with this dress? SOLD. Now we can't do that.

If something is exclusive to the gambling boxes (and they already said there are things that are exclusive) then we can't just say "Ah yes, this purchase is worth it" because the item doesn't have a price. It is instead used to incentivize gambling, and regardless of how much you spend you are never guaranteed to actually get the item you want. You will more likely fill up your Collections UI with things you DON'T want, in fact. And the more people buying boxes, the more likely it is that someone will get literally nothing of value out of them. That's a mathematical fact.

We don't want to be offered a gambling service. We want to buy items at fixed prices. We don't want uncertainty. It is not entertaining. We can go to the state lottery if we want a cheap thrill. This is not the state lottery and has no business being in the game.

DHale · August 2016

Agree and again your choice. I will never buy a single rng box... My choice.

Cazzy · August 2016

Thanks for your thoughts on the upcoming Crown Crates, everyone. Just want to clarify a few points -

First, Crown Crates will be available later this year, and will only include cosmetic or convenience items. You'll find things like potions and other consumables, pets, costumes, and - yes - sometimes even mounts. This will give you a chance to try and obtain previous limited time offers, or even some very unique items as Matt mentioned. It will not include things like armor or weapons.

In the event you get an item that you already own, you can exchange it for a currency called Crown Gems which will allow you to buy a different item of your choice.

Graydon · August 2016

helgewjb16_ESO wrote: »

Graydon wrote: »

I sure don't get the panic and tinfoil hats.

Subscribers get monthly crowns, so essentially Crown Crates are free for us. Another perk for subscribring as there should be.

It's a game you all...
Not a lifestyle.

Crown Crates are not free for subscribers. You get a set amount of crowns related to how many months you're subscribing for. Difference between how it is today and how it is gonna become is that now you actually know how much those crowns are worth. You can look in the shop and see exactly what you can get for that amount. With these boxes you no longer knows, you can get lucky and as such feel they are worth more, or you can get some stupid stuff you don't want.

For me, it's the whole gambling element. I don't like it, I don't want to support it and that means not giving more money to ZOS. I still have some months left of my sub, but I'm struggling to find any motivation to keep playing. It might seem dramatic for you who obviously don't see it like that, but that's simply how I feel.

Let me splain and make it easy to follow ...

I get free crowns for subscribing. I will use my free crowns to purchase crown crates.

That makes them free.

Yay!

NewBlacksmurf · August 2016

Graydon wrote: »

helgewjb16_ESO wrote: »

Graydon wrote: »

I sure don't get the panic and tinfoil hats.

Subscribers get monthly crowns, so essentially Crown Crates are free for us. Another perk for subscribring as there should be.

It's a game you all...
Not a lifestyle.

Crown Crates are not free for subscribers. You get a set amount of crowns related to how many months you're subscribing for. Difference between how it is today and how it is gonna become is that now you actually know how much those crowns are worth. You can look in the shop and see exactly what you can get for that amount. With these boxes you no longer knows, you can get lucky and as such feel they are worth more, or you can get some stupid stuff you don't want.

For me, it's the whole gambling element. I don't like it, I don't want to support it and that means not giving more money to ZOS. I still have some months left of my sub, but I'm struggling to find any motivation to keep playing. It might seem dramatic for you who obviously don't see it like that, but that's simply how I feel.

I get free crowns for subscribing. I will use my free crowns to purchase crown crates.

That makes them free.

Yay!

Is your sub free?
How so cause I want that deal too

Waffennacht · August 2016

1. People can't control themselves
2. People can't stand the idea of someone having something they can't have
3. People for some reason "must" have something cosmetic and are upset it may cost more (even though 35 bucks for a freakin computer blue horse is Ok?!)
4. Some people hate gambling

As a professional online poker player that had over 50 grand go through his account when it was legal, I can tell you the biggest ussue is people with money are soon parted.

Mojmir · August 2016

it always starts off with the innocent "cosmetics" in the box. What's funny is people used to get banned for similar practices in other games for scamming, and that wasn't even real money.

helgewjb16_ESO · August 2016

Graydon wrote: »

Let me splain and make it easy to follow ...

I get free crowns for subscribing. I will use my free crowns to purchase crown crates.

That makes them free.

Yay!

I don't think you understand how subscriptions work.

Graydon · August 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Graydon wrote: »

helgewjb16_ESO wrote: »

Graydon wrote: »

I sure don't get the panic and tinfoil hats.

Subscribers get monthly crowns, so essentially Crown Crates are free for us. Another perk for subscribring as there should be.

It's a game you all...
Not a lifestyle.

Crown Crates are not free for subscribers. You get a set amount of crowns related to how many months you're subscribing for. Difference between how it is today and how it is gonna become is that now you actually know how much those crowns are worth. You can look in the shop and see exactly what you can get for that amount. With these boxes you no longer knows, you can get lucky and as such feel they are worth more, or you can get some stupid stuff you don't want.

For me, it's the whole gambling element. I don't like it, I don't want to support it and that means not giving more money to ZOS. I still have some months left of my sub, but I'm struggling to find any motivation to keep playing. It might seem dramatic for you who obviously don't see it like that, but that's simply how I feel.

I get free crowns for subscribing. I will use my free crowns to purchase crown crates.

That makes them free.

Yay!

Is your sub free?
How so cause I want that deal too

$15 a month is pretty darn close to free.

The crafting bag alone is worth the 15 bucks. Free DLC's, costume dyes, and crowns are great perks.

I pay a subscription to support this great game. All the goodies that come with it are a bonus.

Waffennacht · August 2016

Graydon wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Graydon wrote: »

helgewjb16_ESO wrote: »

Graydon wrote: »

I sure don't get the panic and tinfoil hats.

Subscribers get monthly crowns, so essentially Crown Crates are free for us. Another perk for subscribring as there should be.

It's a game you all...
Not a lifestyle.

Crown Crates are not free for subscribers. You get a set amount of crowns related to how many months you're subscribing for. Difference between how it is today and how it is gonna become is that now you actually know how much those crowns are worth. You can look in the shop and see exactly what you can get for that amount. With these boxes you no longer knows, you can get lucky and as such feel they are worth more, or you can get some stupid stuff you don't want.

For me, it's the whole gambling element. I don't like it, I don't want to support it and that means not giving more money to ZOS. I still have some months left of my sub, but I'm struggling to find any motivation to keep playing. It might seem dramatic for you who obviously don't see it like that, but that's simply how I feel.

I get free crowns for subscribing. I will use my free crowns to purchase crown crates.

That makes them free.

Yay!

Is your sub free?
How so cause I want that deal too

$15 a month is pretty darn close to free. imo

The crafting bag alone is worth the 15 bucks. Free DLC's, costume dyes, and crowns are great perks.

There. Fixed it for you.

Soleya · August 2016

The video I saw with Matt Firor, he said it was a way to buy mounts that were once for sale but are no longer for sale.

If that's the case, then I see no issue with it, since new mounts will go for sale and then later on you can get them by gambling on a container. I personally don't like the gambling aspect so I won't buy them.

However, if loyalty reward mounts/pets (like the striped senche mount) are obtainable from these containers, then I'd be mad, since those were "gifts" to players who were subscribers since launch or for a long period of time.

Graydon · August 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

Graydon wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Graydon wrote: »

helgewjb16_ESO wrote: »

Graydon wrote: »

I sure don't get the panic and tinfoil hats.

Subscribers get monthly crowns, so essentially Crown Crates are free for us. Another perk for subscribring as there should be.

It's a game you all...
Not a lifestyle.

Crown Crates are not free for subscribers. You get a set amount of crowns related to how many months you're subscribing for. Difference between how it is today and how it is gonna become is that now you actually know how much those crowns are worth. You can look in the shop and see exactly what you can get for that amount. With these boxes you no longer knows, you can get lucky and as such feel they are worth more, or you can get some stupid stuff you don't want.

For me, it's the whole gambling element. I don't like it, I don't want to support it and that means not giving more money to ZOS. I still have some months left of my sub, but I'm struggling to find any motivation to keep playing. It might seem dramatic for you who obviously don't see it like that, but that's simply how I feel.

I get free crowns for subscribing. I will use my free crowns to purchase crown crates.

That makes them free.

Yay!

Is your sub free?
How so cause I want that deal too

$15 a month is pretty darn close to free. imo

The crafting bag alone is worth the 15 bucks. Free DLC's, costume dyes, and crowns are great perks.

There. Fixed it for you.

Without my expressed written consent!

If $15 is a hardship, then it's best to rethink your priorities.

Yea yea....IMO.

Feel better?

starkerealm · August 2016

Graydon wrote: »

helgewjb16_ESO wrote: »

Graydon wrote: »

I sure don't get the panic and tinfoil hats.

Subscribers get monthly crowns, so essentially Crown Crates are free for us. Another perk for subscribring as there should be.

It's a game you all...
Not a lifestyle.

Crown Crates are not free for subscribers. You get a set amount of crowns related to how many months you're subscribing for. Difference between how it is today and how it is gonna become is that now you actually know how much those crowns are worth. You can look in the shop and see exactly what you can get for that amount. With these boxes you no longer knows, you can get lucky and as such feel they are worth more, or you can get some stupid stuff you don't want.

For me, it's the whole gambling element. I don't like it, I don't want to support it and that means not giving more money to ZOS. I still have some months left of my sub, but I'm struggling to find any motivation to keep playing. It might seem dramatic for you who obviously don't see it like that, but that's simply how I feel.

Let me splain and make it easy to follow ...

I get free crowns for subscribing. I will use my free crowns to purchase crown crates.

That makes them free.

Yay!

You spent 15 bucks to subscribe. So, your lucky bags cost you $15 bucks. You really need to learn how "deals" work, if you don't want everyone to take advantage of you in life.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · August 2016

Some how this went from a lockbox conversation to trying to put a value on 15 dollars. I love this forum!

Lockboxes arent a problem because i can buy a billion a month! No way i can buy 2 billion a month! If you cant you better revalue your life sucka! No wai!!!

Graydon · August 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

Graydon wrote: »

helgewjb16_ESO wrote: »

Graydon wrote: »

I sure don't get the panic and tinfoil hats.

Subscribers get monthly crowns, so essentially Crown Crates are free for us. Another perk for subscribring as there should be.

It's a game you all...
Not a lifestyle.

Crown Crates are not free for subscribers. You get a set amount of crowns related to how many months you're subscribing for. Difference between how it is today and how it is gonna become is that now you actually know how much those crowns are worth. You can look in the shop and see exactly what you can get for that amount. With these boxes you no longer knows, you can get lucky and as such feel they are worth more, or you can get some stupid stuff you don't want.

For me, it's the whole gambling element. I don't like it, I don't want to support it and that means not giving more money to ZOS. I still have some months left of my sub, but I'm struggling to find any motivation to keep playing. It might seem dramatic for you who obviously don't see it like that, but that's simply how I feel.

Let me splain and make it easy to follow ...

I get free crowns for subscribing. I will use my free crowns to purchase crown crates.

That makes them free.

Yay!

You spent 15 bucks to subscribe. So, your lucky bags cost you $15 bucks. You really need to learn how "deals" work, if you don't want everyone to take advantage of you in life.

What's a lucky bag???

Anyways. Nobody is putting a gun to my head. If I want to purchase crates, I sure will. If I don't I sure won't.

Another anyways.....we are talking $15 a month. The price of lunch.

starkerealm · August 2016

Slayer9292_ESO wrote: »

The video I saw with Matt Firor, he said it was a way to buy mounts that were once for sale but are no longer for sale.

If that's the case, then I see no issue with it, since new mounts will go for sale and then later on you can get them by gambling on a container. I personally don't like the gambling aspect so I won't buy them.

However, if loyalty reward mounts/pets (like the striped senche mount) are obtainable from these containers, then I'd be mad, since those were "gifts" to players who were subscribers since launch or for a long period of time.

There's new, exclusive, stuff going in the bags too. Matt Firor mentioned it, but then Gina confirmed in another thread. If it was just stuff that was no longer available, but had been, I'd be inclined to agree with you. But, we're already starting with stuff that was never available.