Why I dont tank trials.

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

This isn't a bitching thread. This is a constructive criticism thread.

I dont tank trials. I love tanking, I've been playing MMO's for the past ten years maybe and tank is my favorite roll. Even despite the tank nerfs I keep going with a very unconventional build based around the templars ability to self heal. Before that I played a nightblade tank, though I abandoned and deleted it shortly before the launch of imperial city. I just tried making a saptank again, and upon geting to around level 44, I just...stopped. I hated what they had done to my class. I hated that the NB tanks buffs are now pitifully short in duration compared to every other classes and it pained me even playing it.

But that got me thinking about my old build. Why it was fun. And why I wanted to keep playing it. And one of the things that routinely held that build, was it's not suitable for trials.
It's because of that inner monologue that I'm writing this thread. About why I dont tank trials. Hopefully someone in the creative team will see this, and use this to design better trials or fix current class configurations to support other styles of tanking, but I doubt it and digress.

We shall split this into three parts. Is trials worth it, why do trials, and what's the problem? Without further preamble.

One. Is trials worth it?

The answer to this is flat out no, unless you like one of the sets appearing in one of the trials. Strictly speaking when most of the gear you actually make use of is crafted trials become worthless as a form of 'gotta get the best gear' This game is now World of Warcraft, we do not raid for the best gear. We craft the best gear. So...

Two. Why do trials?

Simply put, I would do trials? For the same reason I do vet pledges. It's content I enjoy doing with a build I enjoy doing and mates and pugs which I enjoy playing with.I dont do it for bragging writes or achieves, I do it because I like what I'm playing, and that's all I need.

Three. So what's the problem?

The problem is I cant use the build I love in trails. This is for a few mechanical design decisions the team has been unable to shake/change but has rather stuck to in order to create a very strict meta that must be followed.

One. Trial bosses must be blocked. In veteran trials, if you are not able to sustain your build blocking you will die and your group will die. The Aetherius Archives final boss is a good example of this. You must block the axes, otherwise they kill you, murder group members, and things fall appart.

Two. Consessions due to nerfs has made DK the go to trials tank class. Why? Their magma armor ult. When their stamina runs low due to repeated nerfs to our ability to block (Looking at you, imperial city update, the most accursed update in this games history by my reckoning) DK is the only class that can put up enough mitigation to keep alive while it regens through heavy attacks.

So with the builds following so strict rules, with the tank meta being so rigid as to be unbending...I dont want to do trials, because I fall outside that meta. But because this thread has a point, let me propose solutions.

One. Healtanks. Give them a better purpose and support than they have. NB's shadow barrier time is disgracefull. Siphoning attacks duration is disgracefull. Templar tank is strong, but not strong enough for these. The solution? Let them give damage, for better mitigation and per-second healing. This will not upset the ballance of PVP due to healing allready being nerfed there, and will give templar and NB tanks time to shine in trials where every mitigation point is key. As an added bonus, make these processes dynamic. Make these things you cannot do with a button press. Make the tank constantly attack and heal itself for that extra healing and mitigation so it does not turn into a boring slog, and suddenly, you will have engaging tanks people like to play.

Two. Give Dk's something to do other than sit there like a god damn rock. I dont know how well you'd do this as I do the above suggestion, but god DK is boring. I know at least one DK tank personally who switched because, in his words, "I hate playing a wall because a wall does *** nothing." People dont like sitting in one spot doing *** all, and you have the power to change that. You have the power to give them a rotation or something to do. Use it.

This post will probably never be looked at by ZOS. I understand that. But hey. I'm gonna try anyway because so much frustration should at least be attempted to be transmuted into something constructive.

Miszou · August 2016

For Aetherian Archives, just heavy attack in between axe blows to restore stamina. Slot a stam regen enchantment on your weapon and you can stand there all day. Don't even need those shard things that Templars throw around.

Oh, and that's on a Magicka-based DK tank with just enough stamina to block, dodge and pierce armor. Toss a few buffs on your team-mates too while you wait for the axe to swing again. It's not hard.

Standing around with your shield up and expecting to have a good time is just loltastic.

edit: I don't waste ultimates on the axes either. I save my banner for the boss burn phase.

Elara_Northwind · August 2016

I have been FORCED to tank/heal before on my poor little templar healer with just 9k stamina and I managed ok without any shards and stuff, just potions, heavy attacks and barrier

tbh it was not much fun, and a little stressful, and so my templars little brother, the naked, breton templar tank, made it to lvl50 just yesterday

(He is not actually naked, he just wears a costume that makes him pretty much appear so, because he is super proud of his tattooed biceps, especially when they are all shiny from defensive stance

)

If it is possible on a character made to heal, then I am sure you will manage just fine on a 'real' tank

SienneYviete · August 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

This isn't a bitching thread. This is a constructive criticism thread.

I dont tank trials. I love tanking, I've been playing MMO's for the past ten years maybe and tank is my favorite roll. Even despite the tank nerfs I keep going with a very unconventional build based around the templars ability to self heal. Before that I played a nightblade tank, though I abandoned and deleted it shortly before the launch of imperial city. I just tried making a saptank again, and upon geting to around level 44, I just...stopped. I hated what they had done to my class. I hated that the NB tanks buffs are now pitifully short in duration compared to every other classes and it pained me even playing it.

But that got me thinking about my old build. Why it was fun. And why I wanted to keep playing it. And one of the things that routinely held that build, was it's not suitable for trials.
It's because of that inner monologue that I'm writing this thread. About why I dont tank trials. Hopefully someone in the creative team will see this, and use this to design better trials or fix current class configurations to support other styles of tanking, but I doubt it and digress.

We shall split this into three parts. Is trials worth it, why do trials, and what's the problem? Without further preamble.

One. Is trials worth it?

The answer to this is flat out no, unless you like one of the sets appearing in one of the trials. Strictly speaking when most of the gear you actually make use of is crafted trials become worthless as a form of 'gotta get the best gear' This game is now World of Warcraft, we do not raid for the best gear. We craft the best gear. So...

Two. Why do trials?

Simply put, I would do trials? For the same reason I do vet pledges. It's content I enjoy doing with a build I enjoy doing and mates and pugs which I enjoy playing with.I dont do it for bragging writes or achieves, I do it because I like what I'm playing, and that's all I need.

Three. So what's the problem?

The problem is I cant use the build I love in trails. This is for a few mechanical design decisions the team has been unable to shake/change but has rather stuck to in order to create a very strict meta that must be followed.

One. Trial bosses must be blocked. In veteran trials, if you are not able to sustain your build blocking you will die and your group will die. The Aetherius Archives final boss is a good example of this. You must block the axes, otherwise they kill you, murder group members, and things fall appart.

Two. Consessions due to nerfs has made DK the go to trials tank class. Why? Their magma armor ult. When their stamina runs low due to repeated nerfs to our ability to block (Looking at you, imperial city update, the most accursed update in this games history by my reckoning) DK is the only class that can put up enough mitigation to keep alive while it regens through heavy attacks.

So with the builds following so strict rules, with the tank meta being so rigid as to be unbending...I dont want to do trials, because I fall outside that meta. But because this thread has a point, let me propose solutions.

One. Healtanks. Give them a better purpose and support than they have. NB's shadow barrier time is disgracefull. Siphoning attacks duration is disgracefull. Templar tank is strong, but not strong enough for these. The solution? Let them give damage, for better mitigation and per-second healing. This will not upset the ballance of PVP due to healing allready being nerfed there, and will give templar and NB tanks time to shine in trials where every mitigation point is key. As an added bonus, make these processes dynamic. Make these things you cannot do with a button press. Make the tank constantly attack and heal itself for that extra healing and mitigation so it does not turn into a boring slog, and suddenly, you will have engaging tanks people like to play.

Two. Give Dk's something to do other than sit there like a god damn rock. I dont know how well you'd do this as I do the above suggestion, but god DK is boring. I know at least one DK tank personally who switched because, in his words, "I hate playing a wall because a wall does *** nothing." People dont like sitting in one spot doing *** all, and you have the power to change that. You have the power to give them a rotation or something to do. Use it.

This post will probably never be looked at by ZOS. I understand that. But hey. I'm gonna try anyway because so much frustration should at least be attempted to be transmuted into something constructive.

I agree with some of your points however pretty much all DK tanks I know that run end game trials don't even slot magma armor anymore, it's not needed and aggressive horn is a much better option. Nightblade tanks work and they work extremely well it's a harder rotation than a DK for sure but your damage mitigation, self heals and damage output capability is top notch.

Good tanks have adapted to the no stam while blocking meta and tbh with some of the sets available to tanks now no class should be running into resource issues when set up correctly.

People need to get out of this whole mentality of a tank standing there holding block and poking things, because DK or not that's not their job, buff group, debuff boss/mobs and control the fight. Make the healer and dps's jobs as easy as possible this is their job and when done correctly is extremely rewarding.

This is just my opinion, take it or leave it but I think tanking on any class is in a pretty decent spot right now, some classes are harder than others which puts people off and they go back to the easy mode DK and call tanking boring but it's really not and I would have no issues taking a well set up nb, sorc or templar tank through the current trials.

Ep1kMalware · August 2016

1 the best gear does come from trials, dunno what to tell you.

2 if you're talking about vr12 atherian archive idk what to tell you. stop making excuses for your build. If that's how you want to play, more power to you. But to be blunt, if the game was redesigned for 1 oddball player's unsustainable build I'd quit this game in a heartbeat. Dont think I'll be alone either.

second, the current [meta' isn't about castig magma armour, it's about casting warhorn.

And lastly, you can get through all the trials with nearly any group type as long as you pay strict adhesion to the mechanics. Most people rage out dps race this, dps race that, when the only thing to blame is their refusal to aknowledge mechanics.

play however you want whatever the hell makes happy. Constructively: The game is how it is. You adapt for some things because they're a higher level of difficulty. For veteran trials you need to be a better player than when you tank veteran spindleclutch.

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

I agree with some of your points however pretty much all DK tanks I know that run end game trials don't even slot magma armor anymore, it's not needed and aggressive horn is a much better option. Nightblade tanks work and they work extremely well it's a harder rotation than a DK for sure but your damage mitigation, self heals and damage output capability is top notch.

Good tanks have adapted to the no stam while blocking meta and tbh with some of the sets available to tanks now no class should be running into resource issues when set up correctly.

People need to get out of this whole mentality of a tank standing there holding block and poking things, because DK or not that's not their job, buff group, debuff boss/mobs and control the fight. Make the healer and dps's jobs as easy as possible this is their job and when done correctly is extremely rewarding.

This is just my opinion, take it or leave it but I think tanking on any class is in a pretty decent spot right now, some classes are harder than others which puts people off and they go back to the easy mode DK and call tanking boring but it's really not and I would have no issues taking a well set up nb, sorc or templar tank through the current trials.

Some good points. But my main point is, none of the setups that are effective in vet trials are ones I enjoy. There is a pidgeon hole, there are predominant strategies that are used because it's proveable that *** works.

I could go ahed and make a saptank and have a build capable of doing trials, in fact I tried to these past few days. The problem was, I hated what I was playing.

If there was a way to tank trials without blocking 80% of the time I'd probably do it, and maybe It's just how raids or trials are designed exaserbated by the fact there are not many dungeons out right now. (Compared to something like, WoW.) But it's still why I'm allways gonna be that heavy armor, sword and board "DPS" in trials.

Miszou · August 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I agree with some of your points however pretty much all DK tanks I know that run end game trials don't even slot magma armor anymore, it's not needed and aggressive horn is a much better option. Nightblade tanks work and they work extremely well it's a harder rotation than a DK for sure but your damage mitigation, self heals and damage output capability is top notch.

Good tanks have adapted to the no stam while blocking meta and tbh with some of the sets available to tanks now no class should be running into resource issues when set up correctly.

People need to get out of this whole mentality of a tank standing there holding block and poking things, because DK or not that's not their job, buff group, debuff boss/mobs and control the fight. Make the healer and dps's jobs as easy as possible this is their job and when done correctly is extremely rewarding.

This is just my opinion, take it or leave it but I think tanking on any class is in a pretty decent spot right now, some classes are harder than others which puts people off and they go back to the easy mode DK and call tanking boring but it's really not and I would have no issues taking a well set up nb, sorc or templar tank through the current trials.

If there was a way to tank trials without blocking 80% of the time I'd probably do it...

Firstly, you're a tank. Part of the job description is to block things...

Secondly, the only part of the Archives where you have to "block 80% of the time" is the axes at the last boss. And even then, 80% is a gross overstatement. It's not as though they hammer you relentlessly - you have plenty of time to throw a heavy attack, or buff your team or whatever, in between hits.

Honestly, it sounds to me as though you don't actually like tanking at all. Either that, or you're just upset that your off-the-wall build doesn't work well in end-game content...

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

1 the best gear does come from trials, dunno what to tell you.

2 if you're talking about vr12 atherian archive idk what to tell you. stop making excuses for your build. If that's how you want to play, more power to you. But to be blunt, if the game was redesigned for 1 oddball player's unsustainable build I'd quit this game in a heartbeat. Dont think I'll be alone either.

second, the current [meta' isn't about castig magma armour, it's about casting warhorn.

And lastly, you can get through all the trials with nearly any group type as long as you pay strict adhesion to the mechanics. Most people rage out dps race this, dps race that, when the only thing to blame is their refusal to aknowledge mechanics.

play however you want whatever the hell makes happy. Constructively: The game is how it is. You adapt for some things because they're a higher level of difficulty. For veteran trials you need to be a better player than when you tank veteran spindleclutch.

Substitute warhorn for Magma armor and you have my complaints in a nutshell.

I'm not asking for the game to be entirely redesigned for an oddball. I'm asking for options.
My opinion has allways been "Either drop all rolls like guildwars 2 or adopt a strict class system like WoW because this games current design seems aimless."

Excuses for my build? My build does what the hell it's designed to do. I can tank dungeons, solo worldbosses, and do the content I normally do. But I'm not going to do trials because it requires more strict adherence to a meta than I'm willing to provide. And that's a problem that this game has had, since the start of trials. The "Meta", goes against how this game was advertised. So *** or get off the pot. Create rigid classes so the Meta has weight and probably creates a better experience, Or go the way of Guildwars and throw roles out the window.

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

Miszou wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I agree with some of your points however pretty much all DK tanks I know that run end game trials don't even slot magma armor anymore, it's not needed and aggressive horn is a much better option. Nightblade tanks work and they work extremely well it's a harder rotation than a DK for sure but your damage mitigation, self heals and damage output capability is top notch.

Good tanks have adapted to the no stam while blocking meta and tbh with some of the sets available to tanks now no class should be running into resource issues when set up correctly.

People need to get out of this whole mentality of a tank standing there holding block and poking things, because DK or not that's not their job, buff group, debuff boss/mobs and control the fight. Make the healer and dps's jobs as easy as possible this is their job and when done correctly is extremely rewarding.

This is just my opinion, take it or leave it but I think tanking on any class is in a pretty decent spot right now, some classes are harder than others which puts people off and they go back to the easy mode DK and call tanking boring but it's really not and I would have no issues taking a well set up nb, sorc or templar tank through the current trials.

If there was a way to tank trials without blocking 80% of the time I'd probably do it...

Firstly, you're a tank. Part of the job description is to block things...

Secondly, the only part of the Archives where you have to "block 80% of the time" is the axes at the last boss. And even then, 80% is a gross overstatement. It's not as though they hammer you relentlessly - you have plenty of time to throw a heavy attack, or buff your team or whatever, in between hits.

Honestly, it sounds to me as though you don't actually like tanking at all. Either that, or you're just upset that your off-the-wall build doesn't work well in end-game content...

The in game description is actually damage absorption. How we do that -should-, be up to us and really isn't.

The second I'll give you.

The third, is simply put, I like tanking. I dont like tanking in this game, so much so that in order to have any fun, I had to -make- the off the wall build. I usually adhere to the meta for the sake of 'eh, lets get a baseline'. But when I gotta go out of my way just for -fun-? Just to enjoy myself? You have failed in your job as a game designer.

SienneYviete · August 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I agree with some of your points however pretty much all DK tanks I know that run end game trials don't even slot magma armor anymore, it's not needed and aggressive horn is a much better option. Nightblade tanks work and they work extremely well it's a harder rotation than a DK for sure but your damage mitigation, self heals and damage output capability is top notch.

Good tanks have adapted to the no stam while blocking meta and tbh with some of the sets available to tanks now no class should be running into resource issues when set up correctly.

People need to get out of this whole mentality of a tank standing there holding block and poking things, because DK or not that's not their job, buff group, debuff boss/mobs and control the fight. Make the healer and dps's jobs as easy as possible this is their job and when done correctly is extremely rewarding.

This is just my opinion, take it or leave it but I think tanking on any class is in a pretty decent spot right now, some classes are harder than others which puts people off and they go back to the easy mode DK and call tanking boring but it's really not and I would have no issues taking a well set up nb, sorc or templar tank through the current trials.

If there was a way to tank trials without blocking 80% of the time I'd probably do it...

Firstly, you're a tank. Part of the job description is to block things...

Secondly, the only part of the Archives where you have to "block 80% of the time" is the axes at the last boss. And even then, 80% is a gross overstatement. It's not as though they hammer you relentlessly - you have plenty of time to throw a heavy attack, or buff your team or whatever, in between hits.

Honestly, it sounds to me as though you don't actually like tanking at all. Either that, or you're just upset that your off-the-wall build doesn't work well in end-game content...

The in game description is actually damage absorption. How we do that -should-, be up to us and really isn't.

The second I'll give you.

The third, is simply put, I like tanking. I dont like tanking in this game, so much so that in order to have any fun, I had to -make- the off the wall build. I usually adhere to the meta for the sake of 'eh, lets get a baseline'. But when I gotta go out of my way just for -fun-? Just to enjoy myself? You have failed in your job as a game designer.

The thing is though is that end game trials is the meta, this is where your own builds, playstyle etc don't matter anymore it's about the group and what is best for the group. 4 mans yeah go nuts with builds I tank any 4 man dungeon in the game with a light armor magblade sap tank it's hella fun, damage, self heals, mitigation we have it all but when you step into a trial this build doesn't work and rightly so.

Rayya_Blackheart · August 2016

Miszou wrote: »

For Aetherian Archives, just heavy attack in between axe blows to restore stamina. Slot a stam regen enchantment on your weapon and you can stand there all day. Don't even need those shard things that Templars throw around.

Oh, and that's on a Magicka-based DK tank with just enough stamina to block, dodge and pierce armor. Toss a few buffs on your team-mates too while you wait for the axe to swing again. It's not hard.

Standing around with your shield up and expecting to have a good time is just loltastic.

edit: I don't waste ultimates on the axes either. I save my banner for the boss burn phase.

Thanks for the information on the axes. I ran a normal on my baby tank and didn't realize that axes spawned. So I just sat there too petrified to let go of right click thinking "don't axe the raid" o.o;;

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

SienneYviete wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I agree with some of your points however pretty much all DK tanks I know that run end game trials don't even slot magma armor anymore, it's not needed and aggressive horn is a much better option. Nightblade tanks work and they work extremely well it's a harder rotation than a DK for sure but your damage mitigation, self heals and damage output capability is top notch.

Good tanks have adapted to the no stam while blocking meta and tbh with some of the sets available to tanks now no class should be running into resource issues when set up correctly.

People need to get out of this whole mentality of a tank standing there holding block and poking things, because DK or not that's not their job, buff group, debuff boss/mobs and control the fight. Make the healer and dps's jobs as easy as possible this is their job and when done correctly is extremely rewarding.

This is just my opinion, take it or leave it but I think tanking on any class is in a pretty decent spot right now, some classes are harder than others which puts people off and they go back to the easy mode DK and call tanking boring but it's really not and I would have no issues taking a well set up nb, sorc or templar tank through the current trials.

If there was a way to tank trials without blocking 80% of the time I'd probably do it...

Firstly, you're a tank. Part of the job description is to block things...

Secondly, the only part of the Archives where you have to "block 80% of the time" is the axes at the last boss. And even then, 80% is a gross overstatement. It's not as though they hammer you relentlessly - you have plenty of time to throw a heavy attack, or buff your team or whatever, in between hits.

Honestly, it sounds to me as though you don't actually like tanking at all. Either that, or you're just upset that your off-the-wall build doesn't work well in end-game content...

The in game description is actually damage absorption. How we do that -should-, be up to us and really isn't.

The second I'll give you.

The third, is simply put, I like tanking. I dont like tanking in this game, so much so that in order to have any fun, I had to -make- the off the wall build. I usually adhere to the meta for the sake of 'eh, lets get a baseline'. But when I gotta go out of my way just for -fun-? Just to enjoy myself? You have failed in your job as a game designer.

The thing is though is that end game trials is the meta, this is where your own builds, playstyle etc don't matter anymore it's about the group and what is best for the group. 4 mans yeah go nuts with builds I tank any 4 man dungeon in the game with a light armor magblade sap tank it's hella fun, damage, self heals, mitigation we have it all but when you step into a trial this build doesn't work and rightly so.

Which I can live with. And have been living with for ages. But, then again....*Points to the title*

SienneYviete · August 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

SienneYviete wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I agree with some of your points however pretty much all DK tanks I know that run end game trials don't even slot magma armor anymore, it's not needed and aggressive horn is a much better option. Nightblade tanks work and they work extremely well it's a harder rotation than a DK for sure but your damage mitigation, self heals and damage output capability is top notch.

Good tanks have adapted to the no stam while blocking meta and tbh with some of the sets available to tanks now no class should be running into resource issues when set up correctly.

People need to get out of this whole mentality of a tank standing there holding block and poking things, because DK or not that's not their job, buff group, debuff boss/mobs and control the fight. Make the healer and dps's jobs as easy as possible this is their job and when done correctly is extremely rewarding.

This is just my opinion, take it or leave it but I think tanking on any class is in a pretty decent spot right now, some classes are harder than others which puts people off and they go back to the easy mode DK and call tanking boring but it's really not and I would have no issues taking a well set up nb, sorc or templar tank through the current trials.

If there was a way to tank trials without blocking 80% of the time I'd probably do it...

Firstly, you're a tank. Part of the job description is to block things...

Secondly, the only part of the Archives where you have to "block 80% of the time" is the axes at the last boss. And even then, 80% is a gross overstatement. It's not as though they hammer you relentlessly - you have plenty of time to throw a heavy attack, or buff your team or whatever, in between hits.

Honestly, it sounds to me as though you don't actually like tanking at all. Either that, or you're just upset that your off-the-wall build doesn't work well in end-game content...

The in game description is actually damage absorption. How we do that -should-, be up to us and really isn't.

The second I'll give you.

The third, is simply put, I like tanking. I dont like tanking in this game, so much so that in order to have any fun, I had to -make- the off the wall build. I usually adhere to the meta for the sake of 'eh, lets get a baseline'. But when I gotta go out of my way just for -fun-? Just to enjoy myself? You have failed in your job as a game designer.

The thing is though is that end game trials is the meta, this is where your own builds, playstyle etc don't matter anymore it's about the group and what is best for the group. 4 mans yeah go nuts with builds I tank any 4 man dungeon in the game with a light armor magblade sap tank it's hella fun, damage, self heals, mitigation we have it all but when you step into a trial this build doesn't work and rightly so.

Which I can live with. And have been living with for ages. But, then again....*Points to the title*

I understand what you're saying I just disagree with your reasoning.

NoMoreChillies · August 2016

DPS have to fit Meta for trials
Healers have to fit Meta for trials
why shouldnt tanks?

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

DPS have to fit Meta for trials
Healers have to fit Meta for trials
why shouldnt tanks?

In other MMO's, DPS have set classes with progressive ability unlocks.

In other MMO's, healers have set classes with progressive ability unlocks.

If this game wants me to hold rigidly to a roll it needs to either sort those roles out, sort those classes out, or abandon roles all together.

NoMoreChillies · August 2016

what does other MMO's have to do with this?

in ESO all roles have to fit meta for vet trials.

to complete the hardest content in the game, you need the hardest build.
Get hard

Foxic · August 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

DPS have to fit Meta for trials
Healers have to fit Meta for trials
why shouldnt tanks?

In other MMO's, DPS have set classes with progressive ability unlocks.

In other MMO's, healers have set classes with progressive ability unlocks.

If this game wants me to hold rigidly to a roll it needs to either sort those roles out, sort those classes out, or abandon roles all together.

Now youre just being childish. ESO gives you the ability to build your character however you so choose, and still be able to complete the vast majority of content.

So what youre saying is, everyone should have to play the same class for each role just because your build is bad? Even if you have to adhere to a general meta to complete the harder trials, you still have 100x the freedom in that area to create your character than you do in other mmos

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

DPS have to fit Meta for trials
Healers have to fit Meta for trials
why shouldnt tanks?

In other MMO's, DPS have set classes with progressive ability unlocks.

In other MMO's, healers have set classes with progressive ability unlocks.

If this game wants me to hold rigidly to a roll it needs to either sort those roles out, sort those classes out, or abandon roles all together.

Now youre just being childish. ESO gives you the ability to build your character however you so choose, and still be able to complete the vast majority of content.

So what youre saying is, everyone should have to play the same class for each role just because your build is bad? Even if you have to adhere to a general meta to complete the harder trials, you still have 100x the freedom in that area to create your character than you do in other mmos

What I'm saying, is that the choice your given isn't really a choice. If the meta is so rigid, why would you choose anything else?

That freedom extends to DPS and other area's. You treat the game like a multiple choice answer, but only one choice is truely correct.

And lol, that's two people who go 'your build is bad'. Grow up plox.

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

what does other MMO's have to do with this?

in ESO all roles have to fit meta for vet trials.

to complete the hardest content in the game, you need the hardest build.
Get hard

"Get hard".

..just wat.

And if you cant understand what the comparison to other MMO's has to do with it, I cant help you.

Foxic · August 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

DPS have to fit Meta for trials
Healers have to fit Meta for trials
why shouldnt tanks?

In other MMO's, DPS have set classes with progressive ability unlocks.

In other MMO's, healers have set classes with progressive ability unlocks.

If this game wants me to hold rigidly to a roll it needs to either sort those roles out, sort those classes out, or abandon roles all together.

Now youre just being childish. ESO gives you the ability to build your character however you so choose, and still be able to complete the vast majority of content.

So what youre saying is, everyone should have to play the same class for each role just because your build is bad? Even if you have to adhere to a general meta to complete the harder trials, you still have 100x the freedom in that area to create your character than you do in other mmos

What I'm saying, is that the choice your given isn't really a choice. If the meta is so rigid, why would you choose anything else?

That freedom extends to DPS and other area's. You treat the game like a multiple choice answer, but only one choice is truely correct.

And lol, that's two people who go 'your build is bad'. Grow up plox.

Thats the thing, the meta isnt as rigid as you think. I have seen all 4 classes tank aa/so/hrc as stamina and magicka tanks.

There are at least 8 viable dps builds at any given time,which give you the option to tweak them to your liking.(despite what forum nerds say, dps balance is very good right now)

All 4 classes can easily heal all trials

Also you said "my build does what the hell its designed to do". Apparently surviving trials isnt what it was designed to do.

Anyone can solo world bosses and you dont even need a tank for dungeons so that really doesnt mean anything in determining if your build is worth a damn

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

TotallyNotVos wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

DPS have to fit Meta for trials
Healers have to fit Meta for trials
why shouldnt tanks?

In other MMO's, DPS have set classes with progressive ability unlocks.

In other MMO's, healers have set classes with progressive ability unlocks.

If this game wants me to hold rigidly to a roll it needs to either sort those roles out, sort those classes out, or abandon roles all together.

Now youre just being childish. ESO gives you the ability to build your character however you so choose, and still be able to complete the vast majority of content.

So what youre saying is, everyone should have to play the same class for each role just because your build is bad? Even if you have to adhere to a general meta to complete the harder trials, you still have 100x the freedom in that area to create your character than you do in other mmos

What I'm saying, is that the choice your given isn't really a choice. If the meta is so rigid, why would you choose anything else?

That freedom extends to DPS and other area's. You treat the game like a multiple choice answer, but only one choice is truely correct.

And lol, that's two people who go 'your build is bad'. Grow up plox.

Thats the thing, the meta isnt as rigid as you think. I have seen all 4 classes tank aa/so/hrc as stamina and magicka tanks.

There are at least 8 viable dps builds at any given time,which give you the option to tweak them to your liking.(despite what forum nerds say, dps balance is very good right now)

All 4 classes can easily heal all trials

Also you said "my build does what the hell its designed to do". Apparently surviving trials isnt what it was designed to do.

Anyone can solo world bosses and you dont even need a tank for dungeons so that really doesnt mean anything in determining if your build is worth a damn

"The meta isn't as rigid as you think". The meta dictates a solid outline where if you dont like blocking your gonna have a bad time. But pray tell, what is the templar magicka version you've seen tank HRC, SO, AA?

Ep1kMalware · August 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

1 the best gear does come from trials, dunno what to tell you.

2 if you're talking about vr12 atherian archive idk what to tell you. stop making excuses for your build. If that's how you want to play, more power to you. But to be blunt, if the game was redesigned for 1 oddball player's unsustainable build I'd quit this game in a heartbeat. Dont think I'll be alone either.

second, the current [meta' isn't about castig magma armour, it's about casting warhorn.

And lastly, you can get through all the trials with nearly any group type as long as you pay strict adhesion to the mechanics. Most people rage out dps race this, dps race that, when the only thing to blame is their refusal to aknowledge mechanics.

play however you want whatever the hell makes happy. Constructively: The game is how it is. You adapt for some things because they're a higher level of difficulty. For veteran trials you need to be a better player than when you tank veteran spindleclutch.

Substitute warhorn for Magma armor and you have my complaints in a nutshell.

I'm not asking for the game to be entirely redesigned for an oddball. I'm asking for options.
My opinion has allways been "Either drop all rolls like guildwars 2 or adopt a strict class system like WoW because this games current design seems aimless."

Excuses for my build? My build does what the hell it's designed to do. I can tank dungeons, solo worldbosses, and do the content I normally do. But I'm not going to do trials because it requires more strict adherence to a meta than I'm willing to provide. And that's a problem that this game has had, since the start of trials. The "Meta", goes against how this game was advertised. So *** or get off the pot. Create rigid classes so the Meta has weight and probably creates a better experience, Or go the way of Guildwars and throw roles out the window.

so you think rigid classes won't have a meta? they will enforce that you follow the meta. All you need to tank trials is heavy armour amd a shield, either learn to sustain by block canceling or ask for shards. You're complaining about a nonexistent prison you put yourself in.

idc if you hate trials, but your outlooj is fundamentally flawed, from what I can assume to be a lack of both experience amd practice. Sounds like you ''tried a trial' once with scrub group and formed a lot of wrong assumptions you used to fuel your post.

g'day.

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

1 the best gear does come from trials, dunno what to tell you.

2 if you're talking about vr12 atherian archive idk what to tell you. stop making excuses for your build. If that's how you want to play, more power to you. But to be blunt, if the game was redesigned for 1 oddball player's unsustainable build I'd quit this game in a heartbeat. Dont think I'll be alone either.

second, the current [meta' isn't about castig magma armour, it's about casting warhorn.

And lastly, you can get through all the trials with nearly any group type as long as you pay strict adhesion to the mechanics. Most people rage out dps race this, dps race that, when the only thing to blame is their refusal to aknowledge mechanics.

play however you want whatever the hell makes happy. Constructively: The game is how it is. You adapt for some things because they're a higher level of difficulty. For veteran trials you need to be a better player than when you tank veteran spindleclutch.

Substitute warhorn for Magma armor and you have my complaints in a nutshell.

I'm not asking for the game to be entirely redesigned for an oddball. I'm asking for options.
My opinion has allways been "Either drop all rolls like guildwars 2 or adopt a strict class system like WoW because this games current design seems aimless."

Excuses for my build? My build does what the hell it's designed to do. I can tank dungeons, solo worldbosses, and do the content I normally do. But I'm not going to do trials because it requires more strict adherence to a meta than I'm willing to provide. And that's a problem that this game has had, since the start of trials. The "Meta", goes against how this game was advertised. So *** or get off the pot. Create rigid classes so the Meta has weight and probably creates a better experience, Or go the way of Guildwars and throw roles out the window.

so you think rigid classes won't have a meta? they will enforce that you follow the meta. All you need to tank trials is heavy armour amd a shield, either learn to sustain by block canceling or ask for shards. You're complaining about a nonexistent prison you put yourself in.

idc if you hate trials, but your outlooj is fundamentally flawed, from what I can assume to be a lack of both experience amd practice. Sounds like you ''tried a trial' once with scrub group and formed a lot of wrong assumptions you used to fuel your post.

g'day.

I think rigid classes would be better because at that point you know what your signing up for. If the rolls were given fleshed out classes more ways of accomplishing that roll would be mechanically possible. World of warcraft has the straight mitigation tank, the healtank, a semihealtank, so on and so fourth.

I've actually completed Sanctum Ophidia, Atherius Archives, and Hel Ra on my tank and I queued as a DPS. I didn't -want- to tank trials because I knew my build wouldn't be suited for it. But I saw enough to draw my own conclusions.

Your reading comprehension sucks. Come back when you can chew gum and walk.

Miszou · August 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The meta dictates a solid outline where if you dont like blocking your gonna have a bad time.

Similarly, the DPS meta dictates a solid outline where if you don't like dealing damage, you're gonna have a bad time.

I'm not quite sure what your gripe is - other than you don't appear to enjoy tanking.

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

Miszou wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

The meta dictates a solid outline where if you dont like blocking your gonna have a bad time.

Similarly, the DPS meta dictates a solid outline where if you don't like dealing damage, you're gonna have a bad time.

I'm not quite sure what your gripe is - other than you don't appear to enjoy tanking.

Your view of tanking is so narrow, or your reading comprehension is so bad, further replies are pointless. Please gain intelligence, then come back.

Ep1kMalware · August 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

I agree with some of your points however pretty much all DK tanks I know that run end game trials don't even slot magma armor anymore, it's not needed and aggressive horn is a much better option. Nightblade tanks work and they work extremely well it's a harder rotation than a DK for sure but your damage mitigation, self heals and damage output capability is top notch.

Good tanks have adapted to the no stam while blocking meta and tbh with some of the sets available to tanks now no class should be running into resource issues when set up correctly.

People need to get out of this whole mentality of a tank standing there holding block and poking things, because DK or not that's not their job, buff group, debuff boss/mobs and control the fight. Make the healer and dps's jobs as easy as possible this is their job and when done correctly is extremely rewarding.

This is just my opinion, take it or leave it but I think tanking on any class is in a pretty decent spot right now, some classes are harder than others which puts people off and they go back to the easy mode DK and call tanking boring but it's really not and I would have no issues taking a well set up nb, sorc or templar tank through the current trials.

If there was a way to tank trials without blocking 80% of the time I'd probably do it...

Firstly, you're a tank. Part of the job description is to block things...

Secondly, the only part of the Archives where you have to "block 80% of the time" is the axes at the last boss. And even then, 80% is a gross overstatement. It's not as though they hammer you relentlessly - you have plenty of time to throw a heavy attack, or buff your team or whatever, in between hits.

Honestly, it sounds to me as though you don't actually like tanking at all. Either that, or you're just upset that your off-the-wall build doesn't work well in end-game content...

The in game description is actually damage absorption. How we do that -should-, be up to us and really isn't.

The second I'll give you.

The third, is simply put, I like tanking. I dont like tanking in this game, so much so that in order to have any fun, I had to -make- the off the wall build. I usually adhere to the meta for the sake of 'eh, lets get a baseline'. But when I gotta go out of my way just for -fun-? Just to enjoy myself? You have failed in your job as a game designer.

no, you failed at being a consumer. See a product and demanding that it bends to your exact liking all the while spittinf in the face of everyone that enjoys themselves. It's greedy, go p=play something else. I mean it, uninstall the game and dont come back.

you claim this game pidgeonholes you into a meta while leaving (honestly) so muh room for flexibility. Then demand it can only improve with a stricter meta. At the risk of sounding rude, and I dont mean to be: your arguments come across as insolence due to the fact that you're forcing your unrealistic expectations into a game you claim to not like, while playing it anyway. frankly I don't care if you don't enjoy it, go somewhere else and leave us alone, though.

by constructive I assumed you meant some sort of feedback other than 'this game has too many options, but I want them to work out of the box with little effort. zos, could you please nerf trials into a pillow fight so I could do goofy stuff with my build and put no time or thought into making it work? If you can't do that, zos please take away all our options".

^this is your thread in a nutshell.

Woeler · August 2016

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

One. Is trials worth it?

The answer to this is flat out no, unless you like one of the sets appearing in one of the trials. Strictly speaking when most of the gear you actually make use of is crafted trials become worthless as a form of 'gotta get the best gear' This game is now World of Warcraft, we do not raid for the best gear. We craft the best gear. So...

Absolute nonsense. Moondancer is best in slot for magicka templars, Alkosh is an OP set for both tanks and stam DD's as is vicious ophidian. Same goes for infallible aether for healers and damage dealers alike. Then there is Worm Cult which is a decent healer set and Ebon which is a must have set for a second tank in veteran trials.

Your statement is absolutely 100% false. Every single magicka DD in my raid runs Aether jewels, we have a tank running 5 alkosh (me) as well as a DD and another tank. We have a healer running 5 aether or sometimes 5 worm cult and the 2nd tank runs 5 Ebon. ALL trial drops.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

One. Trial bosses must be blocked.

LOL

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Two. Consessions due to nerfs has made DK the go to trials tank class. Why? Their magma armor ult.

Except for the fact that any decent tank uses war horn in a fight he knows.

A DK tank is the biggest buff machine you'll ever see, if you know how to play one. That is why people like DK tanks, not because they can keep their block up. I agree that other classes need more tanking capabilities, but your statements about DK's are a joke. Not dying, keeping aggro and blocking is only a small part of playing a DK tank. A DK tank buffs with minor brutality, war horn, shields and Alkosh. THAT is why a DK tank is loved in trials, not because their resource management is good. Aggro + not dying is NOT tanking in the elder scrolls online. Sure DK tank is boring if all you do is stand there, block and taunt and think you've done your job.

Also I'll help everyone out of their dreams here: "play the way you want" is a lie. The hardest of the hardest content like VMOL hard mode will require templar healers and DK tanks. I don't see why people can't get over this. Templar = best healer, DK = best tank. And if you wanna go all crazybuild, sure be my guest, but don't complain about the content being not completable.

And btw, I was invited over to another guild this night to run weekly with them as a DD (weekly was vet AA) and they had a templar tank and he did just fine. So it can definitely be done. Veteran trials are at a perfect difficulty at the moment (and yes I have cleared literally everything) and they can stay that way. And if they are too hard, there is always the normal versions. There is no loot barrier, except that vet drops stuff on gold and normal on purple.

Ep1kMalware · August 2016

NoMoreChillies wrote: »

what does other MMO's have to do with this?

in ESO all roles have to fit meta for vet trials.

to complete the hardest content in the game, you need the hardest build.
Get hard

Doctordarkspawn · August 2016

Woeler wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

One. Is trials worth it?

The answer to this is flat out no, unless you like one of the sets appearing in one of the trials. Strictly speaking when most of the gear you actually make use of is crafted trials become worthless as a form of 'gotta get the best gear' This game is now World of Warcraft, we do not raid for the best gear. We craft the best gear. So...

Absolute nonsense. Moondancer is best in slot for magicka templars, Alkosh is an OP set for both tanks and stam DD's as is vicious ophidian. Same goes for infallible aether for healers and damage dealers alike. Then there is Worm Cult which is a decent healer set and Ebon which is a must have set for a second tank in veteran trials.

Your statement is absolutely 100% false. Every single magicka DD in my raid runs Aether jewels, we have a tank running 5 alkosh (me) as well as a DD and another tank. We have a healer running 5 aether or sometimes 5 worm cult and the 2nd tank runs 5 Ebon. ALL trial drops.

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

One. Trial bosses must be blocked.

LOL

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

Two. Consessions due to nerfs has made DK the go to trials tank class. Why? Their magma armor ult.

Except for the fact that any decent tank uses war horn in a fight he knows.

A DK tank is the biggest buff machine you'll ever see, if you know how to play one. That is why people like DK tanks, not because they can keep their block up. I agree that other classes need more tanking capabilities, but your statements about DK's are a joke. Not dying, keeping aggro and blocking is only a small part of playing a DK tank. A DK tank buffs with minor brutality, war horn, shields and Alkosh. THAT is why a DK tank is loved in trials, not because their resource management is good. Aggro + not dying is NOT tanking in the elder scrolls online. Sure DK tank is boring if all you do is stand there, block and taunt and think you've done your job.

Also I'll help everyone out of their dreams here: "play the way you want" is a lie. The hardest of the hardest content like VMOL hard mode will require templar healers and DK tanks. I don't see why people can't get over this. Templar = best healer, DK = best tank. And if you wanna go all crazybuild, sure be my guest, but don't complain about the content being not completable.

And btw, I was invited over to another guild this night to run weekly with them as a DD (weekly was vet AA) and they had a templar tank and he did just fine. So it can definitely be done. Veteran trials are at a perfect difficulty at the moment (and yes I have cleared literally everything) and they can stay that way. And if they are too hard, there is always the normal versions. There is no loot barrier, except that vet drops stuff on gold and normal on purple.

I'll freely admit my knowledge of DK is a joke, something I'm trying to rectify when I can get enough money to put together a decent built.

Really? Normal trials drop purple gear now? Hot dang, I wont say no to that.

And to quote you. "Play the way you want" is a lie. And that's my main gripe on this thread, as many people have failed to comprehend. I've seen games where I could go all crazybuild. I've seen games where I could cook up something that could't possibly work, and yet somehow does.

And the main thing about that gripe, is it wouldn't be too hard to make the crazy *** compatable. It wouldn't be too hard to give healtanks a bone and make them on par with mitigation. It would take -work-, and backtracking from the pidgion hole ZOS has set down that is the meta. And their not willing to.

All and all, I have respect for you out of all the people who's posted on this thread, your counterarguements are sound. Or at the very least you comprehended what the thread was even about. I just wish what I was griping about wasn't a problem at all.

Brrrofski · August 2016

Not tried trials (due to not enough people in my guidl interested in them, most pvp) but saptank is super strong.

I can tank every dungeon in the game with no healer. No heals outside of my own skills and no shards or repentance. Often run imperial City prison like it. I've even had to solo valkyn skoria (pre nerf) from 40% health with no platforms and got the job done. Not sure another class could do that.

I can honestly never drop block. Constantly getting aggro, healing a fair beat and pulling a lot of dps for a tank all with block up 100% if I want to.

Woeler · August 2016

Brrrofski wrote: »

Not tried trials (due to not enough people in my guidl interested in them, most pvp) but saptank is super strong.

I can tank every dungeon in the game with no healer. No heals outside of my own skills and no shards or repentance. Often run imperial City prison like it. I've even had to solo valkyn skoria (pre nerf) from 40% health with no platforms and got the job done. Not sure another class could do that.

I can honestly never drop block. Constantly getting aggro, healing a fair beat and pulling a lot of dps for a tank all with block up 100% if I want to.

Tru trials ;')