Revert the changes to expert hunter

BruhItsOver9000 · August 2016

Everyones becoming a vamp, pvp has been flooded by vamps, everywhere you go, you see vamps. Why? Because of the changes to expert hunter and it's morphs.
Before db, players were scared of becoming vamps because of expert hunter. Now people only use expert hunter for crit and the morphs are useless, seriously.

You get 12% mag stam recovery for being a stage 2 vamp, STAGE 2. Not only that but you also get reduced damage.

And before you tell me vampirism has cons already, those cons are bad. Here's why, the 25% fire dmg can be reduced in the cp tree, the reduced health recovery is a joke in pvp.
Either increase the fire dmg to 50% or revert the changes to expert hunter.

Ghost-Shot · August 2016

You get enough free damage for doing nothing already, no thanks.

arkansas_ESO · August 2016

Your argument that vamps are rampant due to a lack of hard counters falls flat on it's face when you realize that a majority of players in Cyrodiil are stamina, and that 90% of stam builds run Dawnbreaker of Smiting

Force-Siphon · August 2016

Lol don't bring back that cheese

Holycannoli · August 2016

Force-Siphon wrote: »

Lol don't bring back that cheese

But it's becoming a vampire meta again. Not as bad as when ultimates were broken but there are guilds running vampire now in PvP because there are no downsides anymore. Extra power, no downsides.

Does anyone even use expert hunter now? I don't. There are precious few slots so it's gone after the change. I don't even think the clickable power works - not that it would be worth slotting even if it did.

True that stamina is also the meta now which does curb rampant vampirism, but still there's no reason to not be a vampire now except aesthetics.

DisgracefulMind · August 2016

There's always been a lot of vampires in Cyrodiil.

No ty, don't revert anything, stamina is strong enough.

KenaPKK · August 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

You get enough free damage for doing nothing already, no thanks.

This lol

And vamps still take extra damage from Dawnbreaker, which everyone and their mother is currently using.

Minalan · August 2016

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

You get enough free damage for doing nothing already, no thanks.

You get enough free regen and damage reduction for doing nothing already, yes please.

There's zero downside to being a vampire except character ugliness.

The extra damage won't work on anyone that isn't a vampire or a were. There's your benefit for staying 'normal'.

BohnT · August 2016

Just use the prismatic weapon enchant it hits every vampire like a truck it is nearly as strong as expert hunter except that you don't have to be in sneak to proc it.
And don't forget about that 75% healthreg decrease and the additional 25% fire damage, try to survive oil without a good healer you'll have a very bad time

Ankael07 · August 2016

25% Fire damage is most dangerous during sieges and a player who doesnt bother with siege is not contributing to the campaign

BruhItsOver9000 · August 2016

BohnT wrote: »

Just use the prismatic weapon enchant it hits every vampire like a truck it is nearly as strong as expert hunter except that you don't have to be in sneak to proc it.
And don't forget about that 75% healthreg decrease and the additional 25% fire damage, try to survive oil without a good healer you'll have a very bad time

Prismatic weapon enchant, Where can i get it? What does it do?

Ghost-Shot · August 2016

Minalan wrote: »

Ghost-Shot wrote: »

You get enough free damage for doing nothing already, no thanks.

You get enough free regen and damage reduction for doing nothing already, yes please.

There's zero downside to being a vampire except character ugliness.

The extra damage won't work on anyone that isn't a vampire or a were. There's your benefit for staying 'normal'.

You get hit harder by dawnbreaker and take 25% more fire damage, there is a down side to vamp.

Bakven · August 2016

I do think there are a lot of vampires now, not because of expert hunter, but because Zos keeps buffing vampire. Every time it seems like vampire gets a buff and Werewolves get the short stick. A good example is werewolf is only useful if you're a stamina build, so that eliminates magicka users from using it effectively, however, on both magicka and stamina users can use vampire (specifically the batswarms ult) much more effectively in pvp. There's no balance between the two

juhasman · August 2016

BruhItsOver9000 wrote: »

Everyones becoming a vamp, pvp has been flooded by vamps, everywhere you go, you see vamps. Why? Because of the changes to expert hunter and it's morphs.
Before db, players were scared of becoming vamps because of expert hunter. Now people only use expert hunter for crit and the morphs are useless, seriously.

You get 12% mag stam recovery for being a stage 2 vamp, STAGE 2. Not only that but you also get reduced damage.
And before you tell me vampirism has cons already, those cons are bad. Here's why, the 25% fire dmg can be reduced in the cp tree, the reduced health recovery is a joke in pvp.
Either increase the fire dmg to 50% or revert the changes to expert hunter.

Well I think there is more vamp now because of vamp changes not expert hunter changes. And You know what? You can also be vampire. Biggest con of vampirism is that dawnbreaker still hits You very hard and and yes You can reduce flame dmg by 25% in cps but if You're not vsampire base enemie dmg wil be reduced down to 75% and if You're vampire You'll take 100% of flame dmg if You'll max Your cp's to reduce flame dmg. Also one shotting vapires with camo was stupid and evil hunter was giving sometimes huge DPS boost on certain bosses on PvE. So basiclyy NO i dont think expert hunter should be reverted it's fine where it is now.

Master_Kas · August 2016

Expert hunter sucks atm, rearming trap and DBOS is all you need from the FG skill line

zyk · August 2016

The biggest reason vampires are so common is to counter snares and immobilizations. Magicka builds lack options in this regard. Furthermore, Magicka Templars and DKs lack escape and mobility options.

Points in Elemental Defender does not, in any way, reduce vampire vulnerability to fire damage relative to non-vampires. A vampire is always more vulnerable than another character with the same number of CPs allocated to Elemental Defender. 25% extra damage is a big deal in Cyrodiil.

Prismatic weapon glyphs can also be ouchy when they proc as part of a combo.

But the biggest disadvantage is Dawnbreaker. It is incredibly common and 20% extra damage from an ultimate as part of a burst combo is a big deal.

BohnT · August 2016

BruhItsOver9000 wrote: »

Prismatic weapon enchant, Where can i get it? What does it do?

You can find or buy the hakejio rune in the ic sewers. They deal additional damage against undead enemies with a tooltip of around 5k

Derra · August 2016

So the only reasonable approach to keep something in check (in your example vampirism) is to offer the possibility to score instantkills on them with a cheapshot mechanic?

By that logic can i please get an ability that let´s me instakill stamina builds because in my opinion there are way to many of them running around in cyrodiil atm @BruhItsOver9000 - it´s a plague. I need expert stam exterminator10k.

kevlarto_ESO · August 2016

Have they ever reverted anything in this game ? I can't think of any, asking ZOS to revert something most likely not going to happen. /shrug

Cinnamon_Spider · August 2016

This change was one of the best they've made in this game. The cheese one shot builds that could take down 28k+ health targets is no more. That is a good thing.

Sugaroverdose · August 2016

BruhItsOver9000 wrote: »

Everyones becoming a vamp, pvp has been flooded by vamps, everywhere you go, you see vamps. Why? Because of the changes to expert hunter and it's morphs.
Before db, players were scared of becoming vamps because of expert hunter. Now people only use expert hunter for crit and the morphs are useless, seriously.

You get 12% mag stam recovery for being a stage 2 vamp, STAGE 2. Not only that but you also get reduced damage.
And before you tell me vampirism has cons already, those cons are bad. Here's why, the 25% fire dmg can be reduced in the cp tree, the reduced health recovery is a joke in pvp.
Either increase the fire dmg to 50% or revert the changes to expert hunter.

I wasn't scared of camohunter exploiters, but i did tbag them all the time when i could catch them out of hide.

You're asking for return of completely unbalanced and ridiculously bugged ability, shame on you.

TooskSG · August 2016

Fighter's guild abilities didn't always one shot vamps (hint: the one shot bs back in the day was considered a bug[ what was it like 1.4 or something? Dunno, I used to use it on rhm all the time though<3 Kappa]), and making the hard counters to vamps become viable again doesn't necessarily have to buff stam builds more(stam in general needs a nerf,specifically evasion and its morphs or just do a rework of the skill). So unless the one shot bug came back in post-1.6 when I wasn't playing, it's not a valid argument. Actually, it's not a valid argument anyway as one-shot builds are possible regardless of vamp status. However, one shot builds shouldn't be a thing at all as it's indicative of damage numbers being too inflated relative to defense/HP pools, but that's another topic.

No sane person can argue that the cons of being a vamp outweigh the innumerable benefits at the moment: that would be wholly disingenuous and rather hilarious at the same time. Making the anti-vamp/WW skill line into a generalized stam build skill line was the wrong way to go about bringing stam build diversity, period--if that was even the goal, seems like it was as stam builds across all of the classes shared/share the same base-build. This proliferation of vamps in Cyro issue is just a result of a kneejerk reaction by ZoS to the symptom of imbalance and not the source itself. Read: roots [insert Xzibit meme about roots on your roots here]. Why wouldn't people want mist form in a world of roots? That and the lack of mobility/escape skills for DKs/Templars in a world where, unless they're built as an actual tank, they are not much tankier class-wide compared to their NB/Sorc counterparts( due to evasion over-performing,stam builds being the majority, and all that), which was the tradeoff for DK/Temps lack of mobility balance-wise. Regen numbers are way too high.

I'd like to see the following tested on PTS sometime:

regen softcaps and possibly hardcaps implemented in Cyrodiil via battle spirit
Pelinial's Aptitude 5 piece as a universal buff for all characters in both PvE/PvP--would have to switch the set's 5 piece to something else, of course
Dodge roll removing and giving root immunity for X secs (make it the soft cc version of break free) Also, have a viable magicka alternative to root removal/immunity that isn't vamp-related

No guarantee if any of this would magically fix this mess of a game atm, but the one guarantee I can make is: that if ZoS would utilize the PTS more and actually listen to the PTS playerbase/act on the feedback, more players would come back/stay and ZoS would make more money.

@ZOS_BrianWheeler @Wrobel

--Just some rando stam player since beta, don't mind me

Wollust · August 2016

Camo hunter one shots was one of the most cancerous and ridiculous things in the game.

You can sneak and do a dualwield heavy attack with an optional surprise attack? There you go, do 45k dps on that heavy armor vamp templar.

Good thing it's gone.

danno8 · August 2016

BruhItsOver9000 wrote: »

Here's why, the 25% fire dmg can be reduced in the cp tree,

Oh do Vampires get an extra 100 CP to spend in the CP trees now? No?

I can not understand how people can justify this kind of logic. You realize that in order to counteract the +25% fire damage by using CP's, the player must pull CP's out from other places like physical damage, DoT damage, crit damage etc...?

They still take an extra 25% fire damage over a "normal" player no matter how you try to obfuscate it.

Toc de Malsvi · August 2016

danno8 wrote: »

BruhItsOver9000 wrote: »

Here's why, the 25% fire dmg can be reduced in the cp tree,

Oh do Vampires get an extra 100 CP to spend in the CP trees now? No?

I can not understand how people can justify this kind of logic. You realize that in order to counteract the +25% fire damage by using CP's, the player must pull CP's out from other places like physical damage, DoT damage, crit damage etc...?

They still take an extra 25% fire damage over a "normal" player no matter how you try to obfuscate it.

Except that under 50% health they gain 33% mitigation, which means they actually gain 8% damage reduction versus fire and 33% versus everything else as long as they have enough defenses in order to not be one shot.

Health recovery is a non factor for most builds as it is, so the health recovery debuff is also a non factor for most builds.

The net gain by vamp passives heavily outweighs the net loss, switching back and forth between vampirism I found my overall survivability increased rather than decreased. The only thing that decreased was the initial resistance towards fire, I was much more likely to take significantly more damage from the first tick or two from siege engines, however I was also much more likely to survive when at low health.

The greatest cost with vampirism was the uglyness of my character. In particular I favored not wearing a helmet before vampirism and had to seek out full face cover helmets after in order to enjoy my characters appearance once more.

In venues such as vMA where one shot mechanics abound vampirism has significant disadvantages, however within Cyrodiil there are several mechanics at play designed at preventing one shots. This would suggest that being a vampire in Cyrodiil is a significant advantage, which concurs with the results of my testing.

boundsy88 · August 2016

dude saying there are no downsides to vamp needs to take a cold fire treb to face and watch himself melt from the fire dot that can crit for like 12k on a vamp

caeliusstarbreaker · August 2016

If cammo hunter gave only 1 dmg proc per stealth, it would be used about as much as its used now, after skill redesign. It was only so necessary because of its buggy-ness.

danno8 · August 2016

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

BruhItsOver9000 wrote: »

Here's why, the 25% fire dmg can be reduced in the cp tree,

Oh do Vampires get an extra 100 CP to spend in the CP trees now? No?

I can not understand how people can justify this kind of logic. You realize that in order to counteract the +25% fire damage by using CP's, the player must pull CP's out from other places like physical damage, DoT damage, crit damage etc...?

They still take an extra 25% fire damage over a "normal" player no matter how you try to obfuscate it.

Except that under 50% health they gain 33% mitigation, which means they actually gain 8% damage reduction versus fire and 33% versus everything else as long as they have enough defenses in order to not be one shot.

Health recovery is a non factor for most builds as it is, so the health recovery debuff is also a non factor for most builds.

The net gain by vamp passives heavily outweighs the net loss, switching back and forth between vampirism I found my overall survivability increased rather than decreased. The only thing that decreased was the initial resistance towards fire, I was much more likely to take significantly more damage from the first tick or two from siege engines, however I was also much more likely to survive when at low health.

The greatest cost with vampirism was the uglyness of my character. In particular I favored not wearing a helmet before vampirism and had to seek out full face cover helmets after in order to enjoy my characters appearance once more.

In venues such as vMA where one shot mechanics abound vampirism has significant disadvantages, however within Cyrodiil there are several mechanics at play designed at preventing one shots. This would suggest that being a vampire in Cyrodiil is a significant advantage, which concurs with the results of my testing.

Firstly it is under 30% health according to the recent tooltip. And in order to get the full 33% you have to be at 1% health.

So you could say that at 1% health the Vampire will have an extra 5% fire mitigation. Of course up until that extreme point they will be taking more fire damage overall, so I am not sure it really matters.

Not to mention at 1% health, you're dead.

Ghettokid · August 2016

danno8 wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

danno8 wrote: »

BruhItsOver9000 wrote: »

Here's why, the 25% fire dmg can be reduced in the cp tree,

Oh do Vampires get an extra 100 CP to spend in the CP trees now? No?

I can not understand how people can justify this kind of logic. You realize that in order to counteract the +25% fire damage by using CP's, the player must pull CP's out from other places like physical damage, DoT damage, crit damage etc...?

They still take an extra 25% fire damage over a "normal" player no matter how you try to obfuscate it.

Except that under 50% health they gain 33% mitigation, which means they actually gain 8% damage reduction versus fire and 33% versus everything else as long as they have enough defenses in order to not be one shot.

Health recovery is a non factor for most builds as it is, so the health recovery debuff is also a non factor for most builds.

The net gain by vamp passives heavily outweighs the net loss, switching back and forth between vampirism I found my overall survivability increased rather than decreased. The only thing that decreased was the initial resistance towards fire, I was much more likely to take significantly more damage from the first tick or two from siege engines, however I was also much more likely to survive when at low health.

The greatest cost with vampirism was the uglyness of my character. In particular I favored not wearing a helmet before vampirism and had to seek out full face cover helmets after in order to enjoy my characters appearance once more.

In venues such as vMA where one shot mechanics abound vampirism has significant disadvantages, however within Cyrodiil there are several mechanics at play designed at preventing one shots. This would suggest that being a vampire in Cyrodiil is a significant advantage, which concurs with the results of my testing.

Firstly it is under 30% health according to the recent tooltip. And in order to get the full 33% you have to be at 1% health.

So you could say that at 1% health the Vampire will have an extra 5% fire mitigation. Of course up until that extreme point they will be taking more fire damage overall, so I am not sure it really matters.

Not to mention at 1% health, you're dead.

No dude it's under 30% only if you havent used two skillpoints on it...
So for most of vampires it is under 50%

Toc de Malsvi · August 2016

Ghettokid wrote: »

No dude it's under 30% only if you havent used two skillpoints on it...
So for most of vampires it is under 50%

Indeed. Plus of course 33% minus 25% never equals 5%... Math is hard.

Magus · August 2016

No. And then no some more. Return of cheese gankbuilds is cancer. If you wanted to have less vampires just lower the regen bonus. Helps for lowering ridiculous sustain in this game and if the bonus isn't worth the extra damage taken from FG including the only ultimate people use now (dawnbreaker), less people will run vampire. Give magicka users a snare immunity like shuffle without having to run mist or forward momentum, I will happily drop vampire for you.