The Herd (formerly known as the Pact)

NACtron · August 2016

Ara_Valleria wrote: »

NACtron wrote: »

Ara_Valleria wrote: »

NACtron wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

lygerseye wrote: »

So let me ask you (or anyone who wishes to respond): Specifically within the context of ESO PVP, what criteria have to be met before an organized group of players becomes a Zerg? Is it sheer numbers? Variety of skills/abilities used? Degree of coordination? When the servers start to lag? Or just when your group gets wiped?

I've been in a group of 12 well-coordinated players and been called out as a Zerg... But ESO allows grouping of up to 24. I've seen stacks of groups all run in at once to sack a keep, but claim they are playing "loose" and therefore are not Zerging.

What definition do you operate under?

your terminology is flawed. Zerg has a negative connotation while you are asking what an organized group calls themselves. An organized group is simply that. Organized. A zerg however is a mass of players with no clear leadership or purpose. While they all may share a common goal they operate independently. Organized play is by nature organized with a clear purpose and leadership. You can have 5 raids, each raid with 24 players, all working together to meet the same goal. Typically we call this coordination. It's easy to wipe groups that are not organized. We do it all the time. We know the groups we fight and which groups are more challenging. The fact of the matter is at some point attrition takes over and it becomes a numbers game because ZOS introduced AOE caps. I think we all can agree that without AOE caps there would be no need for more than 12 or 16 players in any group. But since AOE caps exist, attrition is only limited by the number of bodies you have at your disposal to through at an organized group.

you may continue to use the term zerg. That's your choice. You can continue to think in small numbers, that's also you choice. But you seriously have missed the concept that sold this game, because of the limits you place on yourself and the derogatory comments you through at organized players.

If you look at the title of this thread you will find i used the word "herd" that was intentional as not to offend my fellow TF players by calling them a zerg. If you are offended by the post you can choose to not read it or respond.

So let me get this straight, you start a forum post looking down on guilds that stack multiple raids. Then you say you are open to running 5 raids as long as they are "Coordinated." I am confused cause the level of hypocrisy here is so apparent I find it hard to believe this isn't some sort of troll post... Or is it?

@Anazasi

"You know you're a true zerglord when even Pact Militia thinks your group is too big."
- M.L.K

I never said his zerg was too big or anything. I have no intrest in nor would I ever lecture someone on zergs xD I don't do it and that is exactly why the OP is so hypocritical here.

You don't do it, as in you don't zerg ?

I only run small man.

No, I'm saying I don't take time to lecture others about zerging. As that would be rather hypocritical.

Minnesinger · August 2016

NACtron wrote: »

Ara_Valleria wrote: »

NACtron wrote: »

Ara_Valleria wrote: »

NACtron wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

lygerseye wrote: »

So let me ask you (or anyone who wishes to respond): Specifically within the context of ESO PVP, what criteria have to be met before an organized group of players becomes a Zerg? Is it sheer numbers? Variety of skills/abilities used? Degree of coordination? When the servers start to lag? Or just when your group gets wiped?

I've been in a group of 12 well-coordinated players and been called out as a Zerg... But ESO allows grouping of up to 24. I've seen stacks of groups all run in at once to sack a keep, but claim they are playing "loose" and therefore are not Zerging.

What definition do you operate under?

your terminology is flawed. Zerg has a negative connotation while you are asking what an organized group calls themselves. An organized group is simply that. Organized. A zerg however is a mass of players with no clear leadership or purpose. While they all may share a common goal they operate independently. Organized play is by nature organized with a clear purpose and leadership. You can have 5 raids, each raid with 24 players, all working together to meet the same goal. Typically we call this coordination. It's easy to wipe groups that are not organized. We do it all the time. We know the groups we fight and which groups are more challenging. The fact of the matter is at some point attrition takes over and it becomes a numbers game because ZOS introduced AOE caps. I think we all can agree that without AOE caps there would be no need for more than 12 or 16 players in any group. But since AOE caps exist, attrition is only limited by the number of bodies you have at your disposal to through at an organized group.

you may continue to use the term zerg. That's your choice. You can continue to think in small numbers, that's also you choice. But you seriously have missed the concept that sold this game, because of the limits you place on yourself and the derogatory comments you through at organized players.

If you look at the title of this thread you will find i used the word "herd" that was intentional as not to offend my fellow TF players by calling them a zerg. If you are offended by the post you can choose to not read it or respond.

So let me get this straight, you start a forum post looking down on guilds that stack multiple raids. Then you say you are open to running 5 raids as long as they are "Coordinated." I am confused cause the level of hypocrisy here is so apparent I find it hard to believe this isn't some sort of troll post... Or is it?

@Anazasi

"You know you're a true zerglord when even Pact Militia thinks your group is too big."
- M.L.K

I never said his zerg was too big or anything. I have no intrest in nor would I ever lecture someone on zergs xD I don't do it and that is exactly why the OP is so hypocritical here.

You don't do it, as in you don't zerg ?

I only run small man. No, I'm saying I don't take time to lecture others about zerging. As that would be rather hypocritical.

Support your local small man group. The day I see Pact Militia trim its zerg down to 4-8 man TF will be a much better place. This goes to all zergs of course. I don´t discriminate any factions in this matter.

DisgracefulMind · August 2016

AD stacks multiple raids as well lol. In fact, AD will take a 20 man raid to chase down 3 people. It is what it is, but please stop accusing only one alliance of this.

WuffyCerulei · August 2016

I love saying EP has a herd mentality xD But that's the same case with any faction that zergs. They all just herd together.

Anazasi · August 2016

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

AD stacks multiple raids as well lol. In fact, AD will take a 20 man raid to chase down 3 people. It is what it is, but please stop accusing only one alliance of this.

I'm not saying AD doesn't do this. In fact we have to every single day when EP takes Alessia. Trying to root out 60 EP players from a home keep is never an easy task. Although we have almost perfected the process.

what i am saying is spread out some. If faction A turtles up inside a keep with more than 40 players it will take faction B an equal if not more players to retake the keep. During my play time, 7pm to 11pm EST time NA AD may have 2 organized groups running around 16 members each although i don't know what telel's group numbers ever are. There many be a pug group running around as well. But we are always dealing with 2 raids of PM, 1 group of invictus, 1 group of haxus (although very small in numbers) and 1 raid of blood for the pact. I'm certain there are others floating around as well on the EP side. I tend to want to stay on DC side but lately we keep getting pulled to west to deal with the overwhelming EP numbers.

I don't think AD wants to stack raids on raids unless it to take or defend something that is highly contested. I like seeing the 16-24 sized group vs the 16-24 sized group.

You know all this *** started when that certain player sent me those tells about limiting group size and spreading out for the sake of the server. You know what I'm tired of this whole issue, I'm tired of players accusing us of zerging when all you have to do is watch our videos to see what our numbers are. I'm tired of worrying about other perceptions. I'm going to just play the way I want to play and if you don't like it keep your tells to yourself.

phairdon · August 2016

Peoples definition of zergs vary wildly. From my days playing gw2 zerg groups contained 20-50 players, blobs 50+ in a group. I've watch small groups accused of zerging in this game, because they killed an opponent also running in a group with one or two less members.
EP communicate, no doubt like the other two alliances. So when a raid, zerg, blob or whatever players like to name groups of various sizes, ep players arrive from around the map to defend. No doubt the other sides do the same, numbers permitting.
Personally enjoy the large scale battles we have with AD. We win some, other times we are completely overwhelmed.

rfennell_ESO · August 2016

NACtron wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

NACtron wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

lygerseye wrote: »

So let me ask you (or anyone who wishes to respond): Specifically within the context of ESO PVP, what criteria have to be met before an organized group of players becomes a Zerg? Is it sheer numbers? Variety of skills/abilities used? Degree of coordination? When the servers start to lag? Or just when your group gets wiped?

I've been in a group of 12 well-coordinated players and been called out as a Zerg... But ESO allows grouping of up to 24. I've seen stacks of groups all run in at once to sack a keep, but claim they are playing "loose" and therefore are not Zerging.

What definition do you operate under?

your terminology is flawed. Zerg has a negative connotation while you are asking what an organized group calls themselves. An organized group is simply that. Organized. A zerg however is a mass of players with no clear leadership or purpose. While they all may share a common goal they operate independently. Organized play is by nature organized with a clear purpose and leadership. You can have 5 raids, each raid with 24 players, all working together to meet the same goal. Typically we call this coordination. It's easy to wipe groups that are not organized. We do it all the time. We know the groups we fight and which groups are more challenging. The fact of the matter is at some point attrition takes over and it becomes a numbers game because ZOS introduced AOE caps. I think we all can agree that without AOE caps there would be no need for more than 12 or 16 players in any group. But since AOE caps exist, attrition is only limited by the number of bodies you have at your disposal to through at an organized group.

you may continue to use the term zerg. That's your choice. You can continue to think in small numbers, that's also you choice. But you seriously have missed the concept that sold this game, because of the limits you place on yourself and the derogatory comments you through at organized players.

If you look at the title of this thread you will find i used the word "herd" that was intentional as not to offend my fellow TF players by calling them a zerg. If you are offended by the post you can choose to not read it or respond.

So let me get this straight, you start a forum post looking down on guilds that stack multiple raids. Then you say you are open to running 5 raids as long as they are "Coordinated." I am confused cause the level of hypocrisy here is so apparent I find it hard to believe this isn't some sort of troll post... Or is it?

Heh do you play on PC NA TF?

Because, regardless of all the zerg connotations being thrown about... what the OP said about that group of EP in particular isn't the norm of zerging. It's more than 2 full raids hitting resources, literally. It's basically the source of lag on TF now.

The 50+ AD that consistently show up at Alessia farm for the nightly retake of Alessia would probably disagree with your line of thinking

That's a bit different as it's not one group. When there are tons of defenders at a keep that's crucial there will always be a coordination (organized or not) to take it.

I can tell you from the AD side there is coordination and a lot of it is to prevent too many people from going to same location. All the main guilds are mostly separate and hitting separate targets or defending them. The only time when you see them converge is when there is a massive force attacking or defending.

This EP zerg in particular zergs resources, and they don't do it exclusively to attack a keep...

Psilent · August 2016

Anazasi wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

AD stacks multiple raids as well lol. In fact, AD will take a 20 man raid to chase down 3 people. It is what it is, but please stop accusing only one alliance of this.

I'm not saying AD doesn't do this. In fact we have to every single day when EP takes Alessia. Trying to root out 60 EP players from a home keep is never an easy task. Although we have almost perfected the process.

what i am saying is spread out some. If faction A turtles up inside a keep with more than 40 players it will take faction B an equal if not more players to retake the keep. During my play time, 7pm to 11pm EST time NA AD may have 2 organized groups running around 16 members each although i don't know what telel's group numbers ever are. There many be a pug group running around as well. But we are always dealing with 2 raids of PM, 1 group of invictus, 1 group of haxus (although very small in numbers) and 1 raid of blood for the pact. I'm certain there are others floating around as well on the EP side. I tend to want to stay on DC side but lately we keep getting pulled to west to deal with the overwhelming EP numbers.

I don't think AD wants to stack raids on raids unless it to take or defend something that is highly contested. I like seeing the 16-24 sized group vs the 16-24 sized group.

You know all this *** started when that certain player sent me those tells about limiting group size and spreading out for the sake of the server. You know what I'm tired of this whole issue, I'm tired of players accusing us of zerging when all you have to do is watch our videos to see what our numbers are. I'm tired of worrying about other perceptions. I'm going to just play the way I want to play and if you don't like it keep your tells to yourself.

Taran, just put those players on ignore. Most, if not all, are hypocrites anyway. Just like 100% of the posters on this forum that say they small scale only, but appear in numerous death recaps when I've been ran over by 35+ AD and or DC.

It's life in Cyrodiil.

Seri · August 2016

Anazasi wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

Zerg happens. Contrary to popular belief, everyone does it.

Anazasi wrote: »

I really don't know why EP on TF (NA, PC) continues to stack multiple raids on each other.

Good thing AD never does it, right?

Oh wait...

For bonus points, that second one I was one lone EP that got chased off the BRK wall (after it got flipped) and all the the way to the resource. Both have in excess of 24 players.

Edit: This was also Oceanic prime time, not US prime time, although lately that's still resulted in 3 bars for some factions.

28 AD in the first pic looked like less in the second but didnt count. If a Raid is 24 seems to me that there might have been a few leaches riding along. although if you are in a small 4 man i guess you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Well if you insist...

Guess AD has a real issue with people riding along with groups.

Not pictured: The pile of extra AD blocked by the wall to the left, the 5 extra on top of the keep postern tower, and the others all hanging back at the mine operating that siege, etc (they popped into render distance now and then but otherwise kept getting culled).

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

AD stacks multiple raids as well lol. In fact, AD will take a 20 man raid to chase down 3 people. It is what it is, but please stop accusing only one alliance of this.

*full 24 man + 4 pugs to chase one person actually

rfennell_ESO · August 2016

Seri wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

Zerg happens. Contrary to popular belief, everyone does it.

Anazasi wrote: »

I really don't know why EP on TF (NA, PC) continues to stack multiple raids on each other.

Good thing AD never does it, right?

Oh wait...

For bonus points, that second one I was one lone EP that got chased off the BRK wall (after it got flipped) and all the the way to the resource. Both have in excess of 24 players.

Edit: This was also Oceanic prime time, not US prime time, although lately that's still resulted in 3 bars for some factions.

28 AD in the first pic looked like less in the second but didnt count. If a Raid is 24 seems to me that there might have been a few leaches riding along. although if you are in a small 4 man i guess you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Well if you insist...

Guess AD has a real issue with people riding along with groups.

Not pictured: The pile of extra AD blocked by the wall to the left, the 5 extra on top of the keep postern tower, and the others all hanging back at the mine operating that siege, etc (they popped into render distance now and then but otherwise kept getting culled).

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

AD stacks multiple raids as well lol. In fact, AD will take a 20 man raid to chase down 3 people. It is what it is, but please stop accusing only one alliance of this.

*full 24 man + 4 pugs to chase one person actually

Lolz, hey look a big collection of groups showed up at a keep take.

If I bothered to screenshot the ridiculousness of the red zerg on TF it would be 60 guys riding up to a single resource to kill 2 guys.

Pchela · August 2016

We're all ridiculous, Red, Yellow, Blue. Think after 2 years that would have been settled by now.

Lord_Draevan · August 2016

Anazasi wrote: »

During my play time, 7pm to 11pm EST time NA AD may have 2 organized groups running around 16 members each although i don't know what telel's group numbers ever are. There many be a pug group running around as well. But we are always dealing with 2 raids of PM, 1 group of invictus, 1 group of haxus (although very small in numbers) and 1 raid of blood for the pact.

Can't speak for the other guilds, but past 5:30 pm EST on weekdays, BFTP rarely has a full raid on. We usually have 20 or more when I log in at 4pm, but most weeknights people drop out of group starting at 4:30-5pm until we drop to 6-10 people, until I log out around 9:30pm. Last night, for example, we had 5 people from 7 until 9:30pm and were just faffing about around Aleswell mine.
Weekends are a different matter, but weekdays BFTP doesn't have a full raid past 5pm. Well, some Friday nights, on occasion. We used to have more each night but recently we've drastically cut down on recruiting from zone and only run with guildies due to... issues.

Lord_Draevan · August 2016

Pchela wrote: »

We're all ridiculous, Red, Yellow, Blue. Think after 2 years that would have been settled by now.

Of course not, Faction X doesn't zerg! Only Faction Y and Faction Z do that! Faction X would never stoop so low

forzajuve212 · August 2016

You really cannot just pinpoint 1 alliance to stacking multiple raids, everyone from every alliance is guilty of it whether intentionally or not. Seeing more than one group or pugs + organized group is bound to happen due to game design, especially during emp dethrones or in congested emp keep areas (Ex. BRK - Sej - Alessia)

Qbiken · August 2016

Nothing wrong with zergs. It´s a war remember? Why should you during time of war run around on your own when you´re safer by running around with a group?

#makesmoresense

Rohamad_Ali · August 2016

Qbiken wrote: »

Nothing wrong with zergs. It´s a war remember? Why should you during time of war run around on your own when you´re safer by running around with a group? #makesmoresense

Imagine if real war lagged and General's had to plan attacks accordingly . Operation Framerate Freedom would be a real thing .

CapuchinSeven · August 2016

Seri wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

Zerg happens. Contrary to popular belief, everyone does it.

Anazasi wrote: »

I really don't know why EP on TF (NA, PC) continues to stack multiple raids on each other.

Good thing AD never does it, right?

Oh wait...

For bonus points, that second one I was one lone EP that got chased off the BRK wall (after it got flipped) and all the the way to the resource. Both have in excess of 24 players.

Edit: This was also Oceanic prime time, not US prime time, although lately that's still resulted in 3 bars for some factions.

28 AD in the first pic looked like less in the second but didnt count. If a Raid is 24 seems to me that there might have been a few leaches riding along. although if you are in a small 4 man i guess you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Well if you insist...

Guess AD has a real issue with people riding along with groups.

Not pictured: The pile of extra AD blocked by the wall to the left, the 5 extra on top of the keep postern tower, and the others all hanging back at the mine operating that siege, etc (they popped into render distance now and then but otherwise kept getting culled).

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

AD stacks multiple raids as well lol. In fact, AD will take a 20 man raid to chase down 3 people. It is what it is, but please stop accusing only one alliance of this.

*full 24 man + 4 pugs to chase one person actually

No offence as I play on Azure EU not NA but that's a simple picture of a keep take, a simple keep take.

I can't speak for NA but EU Pact on our server will bring a group of 40 to kill 2 people at a lumber mill then bunny hop on the bodies while telling you your faction sucks (while they are two bars or locked and your faction is at one bar) and that "their ping was fine and it's your own fault Pact lagged all over the place".

KisoValley · August 2016

PeggymoeXD wrote: »

Really? Are you trolling? I can't get an AP buff in Cracked Wood Cave without being zerged by 30+ AD. Can't tell if you're a massive hypocrite or just extremely ignorant. Either way, large group pvp won't end until ZOS finds a way to end it. The only way to beat a big group, is to bring a bigger one. And everyone and their mom knows that AD brings unnecessarily enormous groups to every objective they go to.

Reminds me of EP on PC EU TF & Azuras.

And DC on EB & Had.

Funny that. Every alliance does it!!!

Joy_Division · August 2016

Oh look, another finger-pointing post accusing one particular faction on one particular server on one particular game platform for zerging.

The very fact you say this most certainly means you do not "understand why you do it and I truly understand the mechanics of the game."

zyk · August 2016

NACtron wrote: »

The 50+ AD that consistently show up at Alessia farm for the nightly retake of Alessia would probably disagree with your line of thinking

Because of you. You are the only leader on TF who stacks *his own* raids. Guild X running 3 of its own raids isn't the same as guilds Y and Z coordinating its raids to overcome the X horde.

Your guild the single biggest factor in TF performance and bad gameplay issues right now. When you send 50 players to one location, what do you think your opponents will need to do?

I chatted with him about it one night. His excuse for zerging was Daniel -- who hasn't played in how many months? -- but he was proud nonetheless. He seems to think of himself as a master strategist and leader of an "epic" army.

It is indisputable that all factions and practically all players zerg at times. The game has mechanisms that encourage this behavior. Zergs can and will happen with no coordination at all.

However, the guilds and players who regularly make the decision to stack raids proactively are the biggest problem.

Recremen · August 2016

This thread needs to take a chill pill and remember that everyone has participated in one of the following, no exceptions

1. Zerging
2. "Zerg-surfing"
3. Stack Attack
4. Small man with 30+ pugs leeching
5. Etc.

You can't control where the rest of your faction shows up, even when there are multiple guilds coordinating to try to not step on any toes. Compound this with faction expectations of playing the map, taking back home keeps, etc., and sometimes more than one full 24-person group, or multiple "small-man" groups adding up to such, are going to wind up on the same place on the map. I do think there's a difference between people happening to show up at the same keep versus intentionally coordinating multiple full groups to do so, between that and calling in secondary or tertiary raids because you can't handle a fight of fair numbers, etc., but I don't think it's an especially important difference. Zergs are going to happen no matter what, and while I feel it's important to try to avoid it when possible, that's not always feasible.

Since it keeps getting brought up, just look at BRK. Does AD really expect EP to just let us take it if we outplay them with equal numbers? It's a gosh darn home keep of theirs dontchaknow. Sure, we've all been in a situation where they preemptively send more than one raid to the mine or lumber mill to stop a siege attempt before it starts, but they don't always do that. And we don't always send only one raid up there to try to take it. So let's chillax and play.

Lord_Draevan · August 2016

Recremen wrote: »

Since it keeps getting brought up, just look at BRK. Does AD really expect EP to just let us take it if we outplay them with equal numbers? It's a gosh darn home keep of theirs dontchaknow.

Just thinking about EP's many failures to retake BRK from AD over the past few weeks...

Telel · August 2016

From last night.

There were only 2 Bars of DC on the population indicator. But this one thinks that we managed to get most of them into one spot on the map.

https://youtu.be/yGCilgopmhQ

This is the second half of Telel's involvement in the griffs dethrone push. We had to break six people off including this one to try and defend Faregyl from the twenty to Thirty bloopers (of their now pop locked faction) who would otherwise have been attacking empty keeps.

https://youtu.be/KRLGn1R82qw

If you wish to see the full fight, including the entire 'so not team purple' map splitting then please view Telel's stream from last night.

Lord_Draevan · August 2016

Telel wrote: »

From last night.
https://youtu.be/KRLGn1R82qw

Heh, it's always funny to see myself on a stream

I was amazed by that fight. So many people, but barely any lag.

lygerseye · August 2016

Anazasi wrote: »

your terminology is flawed.

Wait... I asked what your (and everyone else's) definition of Zerg was, and MY terminology is wrong?!? I asked for a definition of the term and provided additional questions reinforcing the fact that I did not understand the definition of "Zerg", especially as it applied to ESO (I know the historical origins of "Zerg").

You're just looking for a fight. Or just want to be heard... Or would that be "herd"? ;-)

Lucky28 · August 2016

CapuchinSeven wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »

Here's how EP does Cropsford on Azura EU:

Looks like half of the squad they brought to Bruma Monday night on TF NA.

They get worse, on Azura EU pact is constantly at 2 bars or locked with everyone else

Seri wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

Seri wrote: »

Zerg happens. Contrary to popular belief, everyone does it.

Anazasi wrote: »

I really don't know why EP on TF (NA, PC) continues to stack multiple raids on each other.

Good thing AD never does it, right?

Oh wait...

For bonus points, that second one I was one lone EP that got chased off the BRK wall (after it got flipped) and all the the way to the resource. Both have in excess of 24 players.

Edit: This was also Oceanic prime time, not US prime time, although lately that's still resulted in 3 bars for some factions.

28 AD in the first pic looked like less in the second but didnt count. If a Raid is 24 seems to me that there might have been a few leaches riding along. although if you are in a small 4 man i guess you were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Well if you insist...

Guess AD has a real issue with people riding along with groups.

Not pictured: The pile of extra AD blocked by the wall to the left, the 5 extra on top of the keep postern tower, and the others all hanging back at the mine operating that siege, etc (they popped into render distance now and then but otherwise kept getting culled).

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

AD stacks multiple raids as well lol. In fact, AD will take a 20 man raid to chase down 3 people. It is what it is, but please stop accusing only one alliance of this.

*full 24 man + 4 pugs to chase one person actually

No offence as I play on Azure EU not NA but that's a simple picture of a keep take, a simple keep take.

I can't speak for NA but EU Pact on our server will bring a group of 40 to kill 2 people at a lumber mill then bunny hop on the bodies while telling you your faction sucks (while they are two bars or locked and your faction is at one bar) and that "their ping was fine and it's your own fault Pact lagged all over the place".

Normally i would agree. but that picture is what happens pretty much every day at around 5AM which is the issue. i know, time zones and all that, but it pisses people off regardless.

NACtron · August 2016

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

NACtron wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

NACtron wrote: »

Anazasi wrote: »

lygerseye wrote: »

So let me ask you (or anyone who wishes to respond): Specifically within the context of ESO PVP, what criteria have to be met before an organized group of players becomes a Zerg? Is it sheer numbers? Variety of skills/abilities used? Degree of coordination? When the servers start to lag? Or just when your group gets wiped?

I've been in a group of 12 well-coordinated players and been called out as a Zerg... But ESO allows grouping of up to 24. I've seen stacks of groups all run in at once to sack a keep, but claim they are playing "loose" and therefore are not Zerging.

What definition do you operate under?

your terminology is flawed. Zerg has a negative connotation while you are asking what an organized group calls themselves. An organized group is simply that. Organized. A zerg however is a mass of players with no clear leadership or purpose. While they all may share a common goal they operate independently. Organized play is by nature organized with a clear purpose and leadership. You can have 5 raids, each raid with 24 players, all working together to meet the same goal. Typically we call this coordination. It's easy to wipe groups that are not organized. We do it all the time. We know the groups we fight and which groups are more challenging. The fact of the matter is at some point attrition takes over and it becomes a numbers game because ZOS introduced AOE caps. I think we all can agree that without AOE caps there would be no need for more than 12 or 16 players in any group. But since AOE caps exist, attrition is only limited by the number of bodies you have at your disposal to through at an organized group.

you may continue to use the term zerg. That's your choice. You can continue to think in small numbers, that's also you choice. But you seriously have missed the concept that sold this game, because of the limits you place on yourself and the derogatory comments you through at organized players.

If you look at the title of this thread you will find i used the word "herd" that was intentional as not to offend my fellow TF players by calling them a zerg. If you are offended by the post you can choose to not read it or respond.

So let me get this straight, you start a forum post looking down on guilds that stack multiple raids. Then you say you are open to running 5 raids as long as they are "Coordinated." I am confused cause the level of hypocrisy here is so apparent I find it hard to believe this isn't some sort of troll post... Or is it?

Heh do you play on PC NA TF?

Because, regardless of all the zerg connotations being thrown about... what the OP said about that group of EP in particular isn't the norm of zerging. It's more than 2 full raids hitting resources, literally. It's basically the source of lag on TF now.

The 50+ AD that consistently show up at Alessia farm for the nightly retake of Alessia would probably disagree with your line of thinking

That's a bit different as it's not one group. When there are tons of defenders at a keep that's crucial there will always be a coordination (organized or not) to take it.

I can tell you from the AD side there is coordination and a lot of it is to prevent too many people from going to same location. All the main guilds are mostly separate and hitting separate targets or defending them. The only time when you see them converge is when there is a massive force attacking or defending.

This EP zerg in particular zergs resources, and they don't do it exclusively to attack a keep...

Once again, that is not imited to AD. EP guilds make an attempt to spread out cause it is illogical to have the whole faction in one place. We usually getting hit in multiple places like all factions do that prevents the entire EP faction from stacking up.

zyk wrote: »

NACtron wrote: »

The 50+ AD that consistently show up at Alessia farm for the nightly retake of Alessia would probably disagree with your line of thinking

Because of you. You are the only leader on TF who stacks *his own* raids. Guild X running 3 of its own raids isn't the same as guilds Y and Z coordinating its raids to overcome the X horde.

Your guild the single biggest factor in TF performance and bad gameplay issues right now. When you send 50 players to one location, what do you think your opponents will need to do?

I chatted with him about it one night. His excuse for zerging was Daniel -- who hasn't played in how many months? -- but he was proud nonetheless. He seems to think of himself as a master strategist and leader of an "epic" army.

It is indisputable that all factions and practically all players zerg at times. The game has mechanisms that encourage this behavior. Zergs can and will happen with no coordination at all.

However, the guilds and players who regularly make the decision to stack raids proactively are the biggest problem.

During Primetime Pact Militia is the only EP guild that consistently runs more than 16 players. It falls on us to fight multiple AD guilds of varying in size at once who are almost always stacked. In order for Pact Militia to meet the numbers of the AD and sometimes more recently the DC as well we have to run 1.5-2.5 raids. Now half the time in TF there is enough attacks hitting EP that we split our numbers in half and divide them between north and south of the map. That is happening more and more lately as DC has stepped up their game.

In the times where we are stacked fighting AD. Take a moment to look around you. Especially if at Alessia. Count the number of EP wearing Pact Militia Tabards. Then look at the amount of AD standing next to you and tell me what you find.

zyk · August 2016

NACtron wrote: »

During Primetime Pact Militia is the only EP guild that consistently runs more than 16 players. It falls on us to fight multiple AD guilds of varying in size at once who are almost always stacked. In order for Pact Militia to meet the numbers of the AD and sometimes more recently the DC as well we have to run 1.5-2.5 raids. Now half the time in TF there is enough attacks hitting EP that we split our numbers in half and divide them between north and south of the map. That is happening more and more lately as DC has stepped up their game.

In the times where we are stacked fighting AD. Take a moment to look around you. Especially if at Alessia. Count the number of EP wearing Pact Militia Tabards. Then look at the amount of AD standing next to you and tell me what you find.

This is a big, steaming pile.

First of all, the mere fact that your 2.5 raids run under the same banner differentiate you from the competition. You are always in a position to pull this trigger. Where independent raids need to actually negotiate and choose to work together, you always have this option at your disposal. And use it, you do.

One reading your message without ever having faced you in Cyrodiil might think you only use your horde reactively. Anyone who plays on TF knows that this is not the case. You frequently push single, relatively unguarded objectives with multiple raids.

Like it or not, you are an escalator of massive fights. You may be changing your tone in the forums, but you have expressed here and to me before that you enjoy these fights. You just don't enjoy being called out for at this moment what so many others find to be unpleasant.

You should cap your raids at 24 players or less and coordinate, when necessary, with other raids like other leaders do. Let the other two raids form their own guilds. Try ninjaing BM with 24 instead of 50. We will all be rewarded with better gameplay.

kadar · August 2016

Anazasi wrote: »

CyrusArya wrote: »

A zergbad complaining about other zergbads, ha. Let me retort:

"I really don't know why Dominion Knights run full 24 man raids, I'm starting to think that this is really the only way anyone in that guild can accomplish anything. I understand why you do it and I truly understand the mechanics of the game, but come on guys, the quality of life in ESO and the level of fun you can have is truly not dependent on size."

Glass houses and all that.

apparently counting (see video below) is a challenge......Might i suggest practice on basic math....

Since we can not tell what faction you hail from either out of shame or uncertainty, i'll assume you are DC. Calling DK a zergbad guild running 24 is hype failed as it may be. Don't worry DC stacking is just as bad a EP and AD. In retrospect, we are all playing the game as intended, furthermore players who simply call out other players labeling them bad are simply upset because that is the only way they can justify their own short comings.

PS i hear twich is free you can make yourself feel as self important or as God like as you want there and I'm sure people will admire you for it.

You just like...nullified the entire point of your post. Why not just state: All factions stack really hard and it's bad. Why did you even post? Oh, I see. To flame and bait people.

heystreethawk · August 2016

SOME FAST-ACTING FACTS ABOUT STACK ATTACKS:

1) Stack Attacks happen
2) Stack Attacks are morally suspect
3) Stack Attacks are often necessary to accomplish your objective
4) Not all objectives are necessary to accomplish

5) We should always consider how important it is that we take any given castle, keep, or fort which is defended heavily enough to warrant a Stack Attack; the importance of the objective should be weighed against the strain you will potentially place upon the server, the possibility of losing other (and often more important) objectives in the course of the Stack Attack, and-- I honestly think this is the most important element-- the aggravation your stacking and attacking will create in the hearts and noggins of other players, primarily your enemies.

6) We depend on the participation of our allies and enemies alike in order to have fun in this game. People stop playing when they stop having fun, and the game suffers accordingly; we suffer accordingly. It's a ripple effect.

If you're stacking keep after keep, painting the map your favorite color because, I dunno, you just want to do that, you think it looks pretty or it makes you feel like a big shot, the conditions of gameplay on the server will eventually become unpleasant enough that your enemies will just stop playing. For the night, for the week, or maybe altogether. Your enemies stop playing because they're not having fun-- you're not giving them a chance to have fun-- and it gets progressively harder and rarer to find the good fights, and eventually, you realize that you are no longer having fun. You're not in Cyrodiil because it's 2014 and you really want a buff server to give you a mild statistical edge in a Trial. You're in Cyrodiil because you like fighting other players, so think about what you can do to ensure you get to continue fighting people. In the real world, we don't throw sacks of garbage into a nearby river to dispose of them, because we enjoy having an Earth to exist on. Do your part.

(This is also why it's ridiculous to charge after individual players or significantly smaller groups crossing the path of your own group, unless they attack you first or you have an honor-based personal vendetta against that person or something; just let the guy get to where he wants to go. Who cares what devious schemes those 3 blues heading south have in store? Get to your own destination and have a fight in your paygrade.)

7) Stack Attacks happen, from my perspective, much more frequently now than they used to. Offensive sieges became exponentially harder due to the buffs to siege damage, nerfs to purge, nerfs to barriers, nerfs to rapids, and the increased availability / effectiveness of snares 'n' roots all happening simultaneously. I think many of these things should have happened, but the fact that they happened all at once shifted the keep-sackin' dynamic drastically.

Furthermore, we had the re-introduction of camps, which dramatically lengthened the amount of time these sieges last. And the longer a keep/castle/fort is flagged, the more people are going to show up to both attack and defend. If there are no other fights at the time which are roughly as important or as easy to get to as the flagged up siege that we all get to see on our maps, then eventually everyone is going to go there. It's just what happens.

8) This last one will turn into a sunglasses face, which is cool. Sunglasses are cool. As Men'Do mentioned pretty astutely, most Stack Attacks either happen or escalate into insanity entirely by coincidence. You can't coordinate with everyone, and you can't often convince the general population not to go somewhere. I'll call out in zone that Alessia really doesn't need any more help, things are looking pretty good, thank you very much for wanting to help out your Alliance in general and specifically wanting to protect the location of Queen Ayrenn's famous buried treasure trove, but this place is under control and you should definitely consider a different location if you want to help out.

Then people start yelling back NO WAY MAN, WE NEED EVERYONE HERE RIGHT NOW, THERE ARE STILL ENEMIES ALIVE AND NOTHING IS FINE. SOS SOS SOS SOS. Shrug.

BONUS FAST-ACTING STACK ATTACK FACT:

All stack attack facts are pointed in the general direction of the air that we mutually breathe, and none of them were crafted with the intention of wagging fingers at any specific individuals, groups, or alliances. They are things I think we all should consider.