Why does everyone choose Crippling Grasp on Nightblade instead of Debilitate?

Deathgiggle · July 2016

I am PvE only and it really seems like a tough choice even though i see most people went with Crippling Grasp. If I take grasp I get a little extra damage upfront and a 1.5 second stun. The small amount of upfront damage it gives doesn't seem all that good but the stun is a nice interrupt and seems like it would be awesome in PvP.
On the other hand with Debilitate you can put the DOT on unlimited targets. In PvE wouldn't this give an advantage? At range it seems I could hit 3 targets with it real fast and then slam down wall of elements followed by Swallow soul. With wall of elements hitting them, swallow soul returning health, and Debilitate DOT ticking it would seem they would drop fast and I'd be safe.

I am just torn on which to choose, why does everyone love Crippling Grasp in the majority of posts I've read? Is it just for the stun or does that little extra damage(437 at my level) really help? My Cripple does 2570 damage over 8 seconds at my level so putting that on 3 mobs seems like it would help but maybe I'm not seeing the big picture?

CasNation · July 2016

It's the extra damage on hit in single target encounters. You would almost never use the spell in AoE encounters. It would be a DPS loss to apply it to enough targets to matter when you could have been using your globals to cast something like Sap essence, impulse, or wall of elements.

So, yeah, because it is a single target dot, and the extra damage directly improves it's ability to do that.

Acsvf · July 2016

Pretty much what @CasNation said. There's no reason to use it for AOE encounters, so it's best to just make it better for single target.

nordsavage · July 2016

Damage. Per. Second.

STEVIL · July 2016

nordsavage wrote: »

Damage. Per. Second.

uhhh... YMMV

but for me i use debilitate.

Why?

Damage-wise you use any of the cripple tree for the DOT. the initial hit isn't anything like what you can get from swallow soul. but the DOT is where the payout is and that makes the extra bump for its first hit mostly inconsequential. the key with any DOT from DPS perspective is the more times you click it, the less effective it is. So, initial hit gains are counter-productive as an add for a morph.

i use debilitate because of the magica return. it helps with basically making the mag blade a never ending sustain without putting anything into it such as enchants for reductions replacing spell damage enchants.

The multiple target thing has extremely limited uses - mostly i just hit each target once when i start to burn them down.
But there may be rare cases where you can tag each of several and keep them at range effectively making it not so much a DPS options as a "prevent me being hit" option.

But, yeah, magica return.

At least for me.

EDIT
Forgot to add: if you have a trait that triggers on dot... being able to have it up and hitting multiple at once will also gain from the debilitate morph. various sets have that capability.

Acsvf · July 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

the key with any DOT from DPS perspective is the more times you click it, the less effective it is. So, initial hit gains are counter-productive as an add for a morph.

If you add an initial hit to a DOT, then overall you're dealing more damage with the ability. I don't see where this "counter-productive" is coming from.

STEVIL · July 2016

Acsvf wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

the key with any DOT from DPS perspective is the more times you click it, the less effective it is. So, initial hit gains are counter-productive as an add for a morph.

If you add an initial hit to a DOT, then overall you're dealing more damage with the ability. I don't see where this "counter-productive" is coming from.

Are you comparing morph vs unmorph and coming to its better? Wel yeah but thats not the question.

The more frequently you click on a dot vs letting itvrun, the less dps you get compared to using that click for better attacks. Making click me again the gain from a morph is counter productive when compared to a no-click morph benefit like mag return.

If you compare the morphed to non-morph, yeah you gain. But if you compare one morph vs the other, it comes down to ehat you need. Do you want some extra dsmage for every extra click or extra magica to use for anything that doesnt need a click to gain?

Izaki · July 2016

I don't see any situation where applying Debilitate to more than 1 target is not a DPS loss. Crippling Grasp is better as when you AoE you use Refreshing/Twisting Path, Elemental Blockade and Sap Essence because its simply more effective as you don't lose time trying to single out enemies so you're not damaging them all at once. Its a targeted DoT not an AoE like Liquid Lightning/Path/Blockade/Ash.
Try a DPS test on Blood Spawn. For single target situations Crippling Crasp is just better and you will see it when you test it.
Then try out Debilitate on a pack of mobs (around 10 mobs in most dungeons) and note how much see how much time it takes you to apply the DoT onto each one of them.

The magicka return is useless because Impale is your finisher and it already gives magicka back if you actually use a single target execute in multiple target situations (just as stupid as using a single target DoT to tag every enemy you face). + you have Siphonning Attacks. Mag NBs are the only class that can sustain Kena proc forever. In PvE the healers are running Elemental Drain/Siphon Spirit (in trials) couple that with Siphonning Attacks and you NEVER run out of magicka on a NB.

Acsvf · July 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

The more frequently you click on a dot vs letting itvrun, the less dps you get compared to using that click for better attacks. Making click me again the gain from a morph is counter productive when compared to a no-click morph benefit like mag return.

The issue I had was that I don't see where this clicking the ability again comes from. The DoT lasts 8 seconds, not 60. If you're going to be using the ability, you'll be refreshing the ability every 8 seconds- it doesn't just magically change just because you're dealing damage with the initial hit.
There wouldn't be a difference between the morph increasing the damage of the DoT, or how it is now with some initial hit damage. It's literally just a flat damage increase to the ability, nothing else.

STEVIL wrote: »

or extra magica to use for anything that doesnt need a click to gain?

Doesn't need a click to gain? Like, not using/refreshing the ability? You do realize that you don't get any magicka return if the enemy wasn't affected by the DoT on death, right?

STEVIL wrote: »

Do you want some extra dsmage for every extra click or extra magica

This "extra magicka" only comes into play for situations where you would actually use the ability on something that would not end the fight after dying. Which doesn't realistically happen in group content. You use an AOE for AOE situations, which Cripple isn't. What you do use Cripple on, however, are bosses. And after killing a boss you're free to just regenerate your magicka to maximum. This means that the Magicka return is essentially worthless.

magictucktuck · July 2016

I use debilitate in VMA but that's only a couple mobs at a time also useful to apply to multiple crystals on last boss or if a secondary target is blocking the boss I will put it again on the boss. I this its very useful in there