Battle Spirit 5k HP Free Buff? Why does this still exist? The game evolved remove it.

Paraflex · July 2016

I think its time they look at the battle spirit buff and remove the 5k free HP you get. This encourages people to put all 64 points into stam or mag depending on your build. You shouldn't get a free 5k hp gift in PvP. Let people be glass canons (Obviously Impen is a factor in this) if they choose to contribute so many points into stam or mag for DPS. I think the game has changed so much we no longer need this buff. Sure new people will die quicker but it may create a healthier PvP environment.

Another suggestion about the battle spirit buff. Can we adjust the reduction in healing total value to 70% or around that range? This is coming from a healing templar that keeps people alive in groups. Healing in general is to strong across the board (BoL/Vigor&Rally Combo). I can get crit heal for 20k-25k on people with one BoL.

I don't want people to get one shot or fights end based on who attacks first but I think to often fights are drawn out and take far to long to end.

Sharee · July 2016

I don't think people would put points into health if you removed the free 5K. The game would just become even closer to call of duty than it already is.

On the other hand, the battle spirit value i could get behind. The whole idea was to make fights last longer, and for a while it did, but the power creep with champion points etc. brought us right back where we were before the debuff was increased to 50%.

Rohamad_Ali · July 2016

The damage multiplier stacking from stats is a direct consequence of battle spirit . I would like this changed as well .

Paraflex · July 2016

Sharee wrote: »

I don't think people would put points into health if you removed the free 5K. The game would just become even closer to call of duty than it already is.

On the other hand, the battle spirit value i could get behind. The whole idea was to make fights last longer, and for a while it did, but the power creep with champion points etc. brought us right back where we were before the debuff was increased to 50%.

I'm sure there will always be a portion of players who put 100% of their points into damage builds. They will also be easy to kill and may think twice about running around with 15k Health in PvP.

Sharee · July 2016

Paraflex wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

I don't think people would put points into health if you removed the free 5K. The game would just become even closer to call of duty than it already is.

On the other hand, the battle spirit value i could get behind. The whole idea was to make fights last longer, and for a while it did, but the power creep with champion points etc. brought us right back where we were before the debuff was increased to 50%.

I'm sure there will always be a portion of players who put 100% of their points into damage builds. They will also be easy to kill and may think twice about running around with 15k Health in PvP.

If you decide to put points in health, you will have to sacrifice damage to do so, and as a result those glass cannons will survive against you just as well even with lower health. They will be easier to kill, but only by those who also put 100% of their points into damage.

In other words, there will be zero motivation for a 100% damage player to put points into health, because he only be comes easier to kill by other 100% damage players, but he will also be able to kill them faster, so its a wash. Hence, call-of-duty-fying of the game - kill in a second, or be killed in a second.

Sandman929 · July 2016

I'd be fine without battle spirit, I'm not really sure why it's still around. It might convince some to put points into health, but not all. Until health has a purpose beyond merely creating a longer red bar to survive one additional hit, most won't invest in it.

Paraflex · July 2016

Sharee wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

I don't think people would put points into health if you removed the free 5K. The game would just become even closer to call of duty than it already is.

On the other hand, the battle spirit value i could get behind. The whole idea was to make fights last longer, and for a while it did, but the power creep with champion points etc. brought us right back where we were before the debuff was increased to 50%.

I'm sure there will always be a portion of players who put 100% of their points into damage builds. They will also be easy to kill and may think twice about running around with 15k Health in PvP.

If you decide to put points in health, you will have to sacrifice damage to do so, and as a result those glass cannons will survive against you just as well even with lower health. They will be easier to kill, but only by those who also put 100% of their points into damage.

In other words, there will be zero motivation for a 100% damage player to put points into health, because he only be comes easier to kill by other 100% damage players, but he will also be able to kill them faster, so its a wash. Hence, call-of-duty-fying of the game - kill in a second, or be killed in a second.

I don't agree it will play out like that because in Call of Duty you don't have healing like BoL/Vigor/Rally/Major Mending Buffs or Shuffle. That's apples to oranges I would say. They could also cap you skill attributes to say 50 so people are force to spend 14 points on stam or mag.

Paraflex · July 2016

I find it hard to believe someone would run around with 12-15k HP and not think its wise to put points into Health. This current meta you would get one shot so much. You need minimum 20k HP with close to cap armor/spell resists to be able to survive for awhile.

lolo_01b16_ESO · July 2016

Paraflex wrote: »

Another suggestion about the battle spirit buff. Can we adjust the reduction in healing total value to 70% or around that range? This is coming from a healing templar that keeps people alive in groups. Healing in general is to strong across the board (BoL/Vigor&Rally Combo). I can get crit heal for 20k-25k on people with one BoL.

Yeah, let's nerf healing, my dragon blood is so strong, noone can kill me when I'm on my mag dk. Or my nb sap tank, I can't remember when I died the last time on it [/sarcasm]

This is exatly the reason why we have the battle spirit in it's current form. Every time someone finds a way to defend himself for a while so he doesn't die fast, people complain and zos nerfs the defensive mechanic. As a result they have to give everyone extra hp and reduce the damage you do instead of just leaving the defensive mechanics viable. Just think of:
- soft caps
- original hp : mag / stam ratio (you used to get 1.5 times as much hp as other ressources for your attribute points)
- wings
- streak
- dodge
- skills that scale with hp (e.g dragonblood)
- shields
- blinding flashes / cinder strom / spark

Paraflex · July 2016

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

Paraflex wrote: »

Another suggestion about the battle spirit buff. Can we adjust the reduction in healing total value to 70% or around that range? This is coming from a healing templar that keeps people alive in groups. Healing in general is to strong across the board (BoL/Vigor&Rally Combo). I can get crit heal for 20k-25k on people with one BoL.

Yeah, let's nerf healing, my dragon blood is so strong, noone can kill me when I'm on my mag dk. Or my nb sap tank, I can't remember when I died the last time on it [/sarcasm]

This is exatly the reason why we have the battle spirit in it's current form. Every time someone finds a way to defend himself for a while so he doesn't die fast, people complain and zos nerfs the defensive mechanic. As a result they have to give everyone extra hp and reduce the damage you do instead of just leaving the defensive mechanics viable. Just think of:
- soft caps
- original hp : mag / stam ratio (you used to get 1.5 times as much hp as other ressources for your attribute points)
- wings
- streak
- dodge
- skills that scale with hp (e.g dragonblood)
- shields
- blinding flashes / cinder strom / spark

You picked probably the two weakest heals in the game right now. Obviously these skills would need boosts if they nerfed healing across the board so they could be more in line with the rest of abilities.

There is nothing wrong with defending yourself and tanky people but when every stam class has access to vigor/rally/shuffle people can stay alive for a long time. In the current meta don't use dragons blood or vigor they are far inferior right now. To be honest I would like to see tanks serve a better role in PvP. Increase Guard ability to multiple please increase the value. Right now tanks just are HP/CC bots which everyone ignores.

Waffennacht · July 2016

It wouldn't change much at all. It's an across the board health boost.

Meaning the person whom said burst gank builds would become even mode favorable than it is now is correct.

A tankier build would also lose the health bringing them even closer to burst range. Doesn't matter how good a heal is if you're dead before you can use it.

KenaPKK · July 2016

A reduction in it would actually be nice. Hadn't thought of that. Outright removal would be going a bit far.

FriedEggSandwich · July 2016

It's not exactly a gift when every player gets it. I understand it's there to increase ttk for pvp.

Minalan · July 2016

Boo hoo. I want everyone nerfed and I'll cry on the forums if I don't get my way!

DKsUnite · July 2016

please make my dragon blood worse, please i beg you

Holycannoli · July 2016

Paraflex wrote: »

I find it hard to believe someone would run around with 12-15k HP and not think its wise to put points into Health. This current meta you would get one shot so much. You need minimum 20k HP with close to cap armor/spell resists to be able to survive for awhile.

The idea is that putting all points into magicka or stamina increases not only your damage but also your healing done, shields etc. I don't like that it works that way but it does. The way it works right now more DPS = more healing and defense. It's not a good system but it's what we have.

Would be interesting to see how things would change without the free 5k HP though.

Maybe we should get more HP per point in health? To sort of make the tradeoff more worth it?

deepseamk20b14_ESO · July 2016

No. People still stack health. Those with low health usually stack recovery via potions. Do you seriously want everyone to just run one type of build because that's what would happen. At least now there are options, albeit limited but they exist.

Firerock2 · July 2016

I'd prefer to add 5k more hp. The winner of a fight should be determined by their skill and tactics, not by a dps race.

Baconlad · July 2016

My blazing shield templar dissagrees and will not be voting for you come november

Baconlad · July 2016

Magick templar here. 28k health on this build. I do had a fight earlier with a sorc that lasted for like five friggin minutes. I beat him both times. If that sorc had been a stamina build of any class...it would have been MUCH shorter and would have resulted in my death...the problem you have I believe is not that the player has too much health, but is dodge rolling/vigoring/shuffling his way to victory. Problem is shuffle, only non reactive form of defense left in game from a bygone ESO era. Get rid of shuffle. Problems gone.

Forestd16b14_ESO · July 2016

look that 5K can be removed when DPS gets nerfed and resistance gets buffed.

Serious about the resistance buff.

vortexman11 · July 2016

Hmmmm remove the 5,000 health bonus you say?

*Looks at 17,000 frag tooltip*

Yes I think this is a great idea! I'm sure that Nightblade cloaked behind me with a perfectly balanced incapacitating strike agrees as well.

Im sure the Dragonknight who's Dragonblood will heal for like... 1k at low health if a change like this were to happen (Basically the same change that made the skill bad in the first place) will love it too..

Francescolg · July 2016

The only reason they introduced the HP bonus and the 50% less dmg/heal debuff, was because of ZOS's poor solution to the itemization, which offers too high dmg + master weapons, etc. etc., and the sky-rocket high burst damage of certain classes/specs, which IS STILL THERE and which comes from the removal of caps.

First, to the TE, never (!) separate the HP buff from the damage Malus, as you did, because both stand together very closely (one unit). First error!

Second, to your idea: NO! ;-) Damage is by far too high and as long as they keep introducing sets like Molar Kena, and a lot of other op-stamina sets (and nothing comparable for Magicka = imbalanced itemization), you need even MORE HP in Pvp and not less. And, as others mentioned countless times, you can not combine max Dmg and MAX-healing/shields/roll dodge/etc. Aggressive and Densive skill shall not share the same stats, and, guess what? They'll never fix it!

Third, I completely agree that the Pvp-malus + HP buff are a very poor solution to the 1 or 2 or 3-shot kills (in a few seconds, especially NB). The HP-buffs for Scrolls/keeps/etc. are OK!

Cathexis · July 2016

Removing the 5k health bonus as I see it doesnt create an incentive to stack health, it just makes stacking damage more powerful.

Tanking already is a trade off for inadequate burst. In many fights, dps comes out on top. All removing the health bonus will do is lower the points a tank based pvp spec can throw into resources and damage output simultaneously.

The only reason it was even implemented was because some dumb as *** idiot thought removing softcaps was a genious idea, and generally I agree with the notion that this was a bandaid fix, which has turned into a mountain of bandaids.

Minalan · July 2016

It would make nightblades even bigger battlefield gods.

Please don't.

s7732425ub17_ESO · July 2016

Nope. This HP buff is still needed.

Stratforge · July 2016

Paraflex wrote: »

I think its time they look at the battle spirit buff and remove the 5k free HP you get. This encourages people to put all 64 points into stam or mag depending on your build. You shouldn't get a free 5k hp gift in PvP. Let people be glass canons (Obviously Impen is a factor in this) if they choose to contribute so many points into stam or mag for DPS. I think the game has changed so much we no longer need this buff. Sure new people will die quicker but it may create a healthier PvP environment.

Another suggestion about the battle spirit buff. Can we adjust the reduction in healing total value to 70% or around that range? This is coming from a healing templar that keeps people alive in groups. Healing in general is to strong across the board (BoL/Vigor&Rally Combo). I can get crit heal for 20k-25k on people with one BoL.

I don't want people to get one shot or fights end based on who attacks first but I think to often fights are drawn out and take far to long to end.

New people dying quicker is not a healthy pvp environment considering new people already get killed pretty much instantly.

FloppyTouch · July 2016

Nerf Dragon blood it's too op -.-

Brrrofski · July 2016

Radiant one shots incoming

ku5h · July 2016

Its funny to me how ppl automaticly think they will have to play with 5k HP less, it's not even in the back of their mind to maybe cut a few k from their 40k+ main resource pool and add to HP.

Sharee · July 2016

ku5h wrote: »

Its funny to me how ppl automaticly think they will have to play with 5k HP less, it's not even in the back of their mind to maybe cut a few k from their 40k+ main resource pool and add to HP.

Of course it is in their mind, it is just unreasonable to do so.

Say you sacrifice damage to increase your HP by 5K points. How is that going to help you? You now have 5K more HP than your opponent, but you also are doing less damage to him. You will survive longer, but so will he. It's a wash.

Meanwhile, any situation where you need to make a quick kill and get away before being overwhelmed will see you at a disadvantage, since you now take longer to kill, giving your target time to recover, and risking that he will get help from adds.