My thoughts on how to improve elmental drain

JinMori · July 2016

So i wanted to open this discussion because i noticed one particular thing about elemental drain. Elemental drain is an ability that needs to be procced by using a light or heavy attack before getting the magicka return buff, this may not seem much at first, but it's actually a big game changer for some builds, for example mag dk, mag dk doesn't have any resource managment ability in the class skill, aside from battle roar wich is incredible, but still not sufficient to sustain properly, this forces the dk to run a dual destro setup, this is all because of elemental drain and how it works, i would like that this ability wouldn't need to be procced to take advantage of the magicka return, this change alone would permit dk's to run with other setups other than dual destro to be effective. excuse my poor english, have a good day and leave a comment if you agree or disagree.

Dracane · July 2016

Hm ? Why does elemental drain require a light or heavy attack ?
You simply apply it to a target and then your can profit from it.

Autolycus · July 2016

For 4man Ele Drain isn't pertinent. In trials, common practice nowadays is for healers to accommodate this for you so you don't have to. One healer runs a resto on their off-bar to maintain Force Siphon. The other healer runs a destro on the off-bar to maintain Ele Drain. The cast itself is a trivial time/resource sink, and with this task being offloaded to your group members, all you need to do is weave your light/med attacks as normal.

The exception to this is vMA, in which case you'd have to run it for yourself. Running it on your front bar in this case works out just fine, affording the luxury of restoration on the off-bar.

Dracane · July 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

For 4man Ele Drain isn't pertinent. In trials, common practice nowadays is for healers to accommodate this for you so you don't have to. One healer runs a resto on their off-bar to maintain Force Siphon. The other healer runs a destro on the off-bar to maintain Ele Drain. The cast itself is a trivial time/resource sink, and with this task being offloaded to your group members, all you need to do is weave your light/med attacks as normal.

The exception to this is vMA, in which case you'd have to run it for yourself. Running it on your front bar in this case works out just fine, affording the luxury of restoration on the off-bar.

But why does he say, that you must perform a light attack in order to activate elemental drain ?
Never heared of this before.

Autolycus · July 2016

Dracane wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

For 4man Ele Drain isn't pertinent. In trials, common practice nowadays is for healers to accommodate this for you so you don't have to. One healer runs a resto on their off-bar to maintain Force Siphon. The other healer runs a destro on the off-bar to maintain Ele Drain. The cast itself is a trivial time/resource sink, and with this task being offloaded to your group members, all you need to do is weave your light/med attacks as normal.

The exception to this is vMA, in which case you'd have to run it for yourself. Running it on your front bar in this case works out just fine, affording the luxury of restoration on the off-bar.

But why does he say, that you must perform a light attack in order to activate elemental drain ?
Never heared of this before.

I presume my guess is as good as yours. I think it's simply a miscommunication....

Force Siphon - requires any type of attack to proc resource return
Ele Drain - requires dealing flame, frost, or shock damage to proc the return

For Ele Drain, I think it's just assumed that the majority of resource return procs are going to be done with basic attacks from a destro. But in the case of magicka DKs and Sorcs, this could easily come from class abilities as well. That assumption is more readily reserved for magicka NBs (who are using only Elemental Blockade and light attacks in most cases) and magicka Templars (who only have a couple of fire-type skills, otherwise are in the same boat as magblades).

I think it's important to note just how versatile the skill actually is. Using Elemental Blockade as an example, since it's used universally, every tick (per second) will proc the return, so simply having it hit the Ele Drain target at all is sufficient. But what happens when we also account for light/med/heavy weaves, and in the case of Sorcs and DKs, liquid lightning, whip, engulfing flames, eruption, boundless storm, overload, mages fury.... I'm certain I left a couple out. It does appear to some extent that the benefit of these skills is skewed in favor of DKs and Sorcs, but then again, they don't have something like Siphoning Attacks. Regardless of perspective, and assuming that we're targeting the right enemies, the return procs are all but guaranteed.

Dracane · July 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

For 4man Ele Drain isn't pertinent. In trials, common practice nowadays is for healers to accommodate this for you so you don't have to. One healer runs a resto on their off-bar to maintain Force Siphon. The other healer runs a destro on the off-bar to maintain Ele Drain. The cast itself is a trivial time/resource sink, and with this task being offloaded to your group members, all you need to do is weave your light/med attacks as normal.

The exception to this is vMA, in which case you'd have to run it for yourself. Running it on your front bar in this case works out just fine, affording the luxury of restoration on the off-bar.

But why does he say, that you must perform a light attack in order to activate elemental drain ?
Never heared of this before.

I presume my guess is as good as yours. I think it's simply a miscommunication....

Force Siphon - requires any type of attack to proc resource return
Ele Drain - requires dealing flame, frost, or shock damage to proc the return

For Ele Drain, I think it's just assumed that the majority of resource return procs are going to be done with basic attacks from a destro. But in the case of magicka DKs and Sorcs, this could easily come from class abilities as well. That assumption is more readily reserved for magicka NBs (who are using only Elemental Blockade and light attacks in most cases) and magicka Templars (who only have a couple of fire-type skills, otherwise are in the same boat as magblades).

I think it's important to note just how versatile the skill actually is. Using Elemental Blockade as an example, since it's used universally, every tick (per second) will proc the return, so simply having it hit the Ele Drain target at all is sufficient. But what happens when we also account for light/med/heavy weaves, and in the case of Sorcs and DKs, liquid lightning, whip, engulfing flames, eruption, boundless storm, overload, mages fury.... I'm certain I left a couple out. It does appear to some extent that the benefit of these skills is skewed in favor of DKs and Sorcs, but then again, they don't have something like Siphoning Attacks. Regardless of perspective, and assuming that we're targeting the right enemies, the return procs are all but guaranteed.

And wrong. No damage over time effect will proc elemental drain.
Wall of elements does not proc it, burning effects don't, nothing does.

Only direct hits like flame lash will proc it. Same goes for force siphon. But force siphon also has an internal cooldown of 0,5 seconds

Autolycus · July 2016

Dracane wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

For 4man Ele Drain isn't pertinent. In trials, common practice nowadays is for healers to accommodate this for you so you don't have to. One healer runs a resto on their off-bar to maintain Force Siphon. The other healer runs a destro on the off-bar to maintain Ele Drain. The cast itself is a trivial time/resource sink, and with this task being offloaded to your group members, all you need to do is weave your light/med attacks as normal.

The exception to this is vMA, in which case you'd have to run it for yourself. Running it on your front bar in this case works out just fine, affording the luxury of restoration on the off-bar.

But why does he say, that you must perform a light attack in order to activate elemental drain ?
Never heared of this before.

I presume my guess is as good as yours. I think it's simply a miscommunication....

Force Siphon - requires any type of attack to proc resource return
Ele Drain - requires dealing flame, frost, or shock damage to proc the return

For Ele Drain, I think it's just assumed that the majority of resource return procs are going to be done with basic attacks from a destro. But in the case of magicka DKs and Sorcs, this could easily come from class abilities as well. That assumption is more readily reserved for magicka NBs (who are using only Elemental Blockade and light attacks in most cases) and magicka Templars (who only have a couple of fire-type skills, otherwise are in the same boat as magblades).

I think it's important to note just how versatile the skill actually is. Using Elemental Blockade as an example, since it's used universally, every tick (per second) will proc the return, so simply having it hit the Ele Drain target at all is sufficient. But what happens when we also account for light/med/heavy weaves, and in the case of Sorcs and DKs, liquid lightning, whip, engulfing flames, eruption, boundless storm, overload, mages fury.... I'm certain I left a couple out. It does appear to some extent that the benefit of these skills is skewed in favor of DKs and Sorcs, but then again, they don't have something like Siphoning Attacks. Regardless of perspective, and assuming that we're targeting the right enemies, the return procs are all but guaranteed.

And wrong. No damage over time effect will proc elemental drain.
Wall of elements does not proc it, burning effects don't, nothing does.

Only direct hits like flame lash will proc it. Same goes for force siphon. But force siphon also has an internal cooldown of 0,5 seconds

If I am mistaken then I apologize. But then... why did you ask me?

Did you consider the other skills I mentioned, or only WoE? I didn't say burning effects, and unless proven otherwise I stand by Engulfing Flame, Eruption, Mages Fury, Boundless Storm, and Overload. They all have direct damage components that occur between weaves (with the exception of Boundless Storm, which functions differently than AoE DoTs). So if your basic attack weaves aren't netting a proc, one of these will undoubtedly do so.

Also, when was the last time you tested this? I'd be interested in seeing the results if you have analyzed any or all of the skills in question.

JinMori · July 2016

To anyone who doesn't know about the proc chance, take a buff tracker, and you will see, i assure you it's a proc

JinMori · July 2016

JinMori wrote: »

To anyone who doesn't know about the proc chance, take a buff tracker, and you will see, i assure you it's a proc

of course it must be a destro staff light or heavy attack

Dracane · July 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

For 4man Ele Drain isn't pertinent. In trials, common practice nowadays is for healers to accommodate this for you so you don't have to. One healer runs a resto on their off-bar to maintain Force Siphon. The other healer runs a destro on the off-bar to maintain Ele Drain. The cast itself is a trivial time/resource sink, and with this task being offloaded to your group members, all you need to do is weave your light/med attacks as normal.

The exception to this is vMA, in which case you'd have to run it for yourself. Running it on your front bar in this case works out just fine, affording the luxury of restoration on the off-bar.

But why does he say, that you must perform a light attack in order to activate elemental drain ?
Never heared of this before.

I presume my guess is as good as yours. I think it's simply a miscommunication....

Force Siphon - requires any type of attack to proc resource return
Ele Drain - requires dealing flame, frost, or shock damage to proc the return

For Ele Drain, I think it's just assumed that the majority of resource return procs are going to be done with basic attacks from a destro. But in the case of magicka DKs and Sorcs, this could easily come from class abilities as well. That assumption is more readily reserved for magicka NBs (who are using only Elemental Blockade and light attacks in most cases) and magicka Templars (who only have a couple of fire-type skills, otherwise are in the same boat as magblades).

I think it's important to note just how versatile the skill actually is. Using Elemental Blockade as an example, since it's used universally, every tick (per second) will proc the return, so simply having it hit the Ele Drain target at all is sufficient. But what happens when we also account for light/med/heavy weaves, and in the case of Sorcs and DKs, liquid lightning, whip, engulfing flames, eruption, boundless storm, overload, mages fury.... I'm certain I left a couple out. It does appear to some extent that the benefit of these skills is skewed in favor of DKs and Sorcs, but then again, they don't have something like Siphoning Attacks. Regardless of perspective, and assuming that we're targeting the right enemies, the return procs are all but guaranteed.

And wrong. No damage over time effect will proc elemental drain.
Wall of elements does not proc it, burning effects don't, nothing does.

Only direct hits like flame lash will proc it. Same goes for force siphon. But force siphon also has an internal cooldown of 0,5 seconds

If I am mistaken then I apologize. But then... why did you ask me?

Did you consider the other skills I mentioned, or only WoE? I didn't say burning effects, and unless proven otherwise I stand by Engulfing Flame, Eruption, Mages Fury, Boundless Storm, and Overload. They all have direct damage components that occur between weaves (with the exception of Boundless Storm, which functions differently than AoE DoTs). So if your basic attack weaves aren't netting a proc, one of these will undoubtedly do so.

Also, when was the last time you tested this? I'd be interested in seeing the results if you have analyzed any or all of the skills in question.

As I said, NO damage over time effect procs elemental drain. This includes engulfing flame, eriuption, boundless storm etc. Mages furies initial bolt will proc it, the explosion will not. overload will proc it as well.

Autolycus · July 2016

Dracane wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

For 4man Ele Drain isn't pertinent. In trials, common practice nowadays is for healers to accommodate this for you so you don't have to. One healer runs a resto on their off-bar to maintain Force Siphon. The other healer runs a destro on the off-bar to maintain Ele Drain. The cast itself is a trivial time/resource sink, and with this task being offloaded to your group members, all you need to do is weave your light/med attacks as normal.

The exception to this is vMA, in which case you'd have to run it for yourself. Running it on your front bar in this case works out just fine, affording the luxury of restoration on the off-bar.

But why does he say, that you must perform a light attack in order to activate elemental drain ?
Never heared of this before.

I presume my guess is as good as yours. I think it's simply a miscommunication....

Force Siphon - requires any type of attack to proc resource return
Ele Drain - requires dealing flame, frost, or shock damage to proc the return

For Ele Drain, I think it's just assumed that the majority of resource return procs are going to be done with basic attacks from a destro. But in the case of magicka DKs and Sorcs, this could easily come from class abilities as well. That assumption is more readily reserved for magicka NBs (who are using only Elemental Blockade and light attacks in most cases) and magicka Templars (who only have a couple of fire-type skills, otherwise are in the same boat as magblades).

I think it's important to note just how versatile the skill actually is. Using Elemental Blockade as an example, since it's used universally, every tick (per second) will proc the return, so simply having it hit the Ele Drain target at all is sufficient. But what happens when we also account for light/med/heavy weaves, and in the case of Sorcs and DKs, liquid lightning, whip, engulfing flames, eruption, boundless storm, overload, mages fury.... I'm certain I left a couple out. It does appear to some extent that the benefit of these skills is skewed in favor of DKs and Sorcs, but then again, they don't have something like Siphoning Attacks. Regardless of perspective, and assuming that we're targeting the right enemies, the return procs are all but guaranteed.

And wrong. No damage over time effect will proc elemental drain.
Wall of elements does not proc it, burning effects don't, nothing does.

Only direct hits like flame lash will proc it. Same goes for force siphon. But force siphon also has an internal cooldown of 0,5 seconds

If I am mistaken then I apologize. But then... why did you ask me?

Did you consider the other skills I mentioned, or only WoE? I didn't say burning effects, and unless proven otherwise I stand by Engulfing Flame, Eruption, Mages Fury, Boundless Storm, and Overload. They all have direct damage components that occur between weaves (with the exception of Boundless Storm, which functions differently than AoE DoTs). So if your basic attack weaves aren't netting a proc, one of these will undoubtedly do so.

Also, when was the last time you tested this? I'd be interested in seeing the results if you have analyzed any or all of the skills in question.

As I said, NO damage over time effect procs elemental drain. This includes engulfing flame, eriuption, boundless storm etc. Mages furies initial bolt will proc it, the explosion will not. overload will proc it as well.

I grow tired of talking circles with you; I am not referring to the damage over time component. Nevermind then, I will believe my own results.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · July 2016

I think this is only potentially and issue with Templars. Perhaps a change to include a proc from sweep might be okay. Every other class its really not an issue, especially in group play. It's a healers job to run ele, period end of story. I say it all the time, if you call yourself a healer and wont run Ele, you suck at life and should stick to DPS. In group content, NBs and sorcs will proc from Force pulse and Blockade, and DKs proc on just about everything.

The only solo content really worth talking about is VMA. NBs will lose force pulse for funnel, but they have siphoning strikes to cover sustain. I would never run ele on a NB in VMA. Sorcs have overload and Dark Conversion to help with resources, again not running ele drain. DK is probably the one class where it is actually worth slotting. They do struggle with resources, and lack burst and range, so ele is a natural fit for both the DPS boost and the magic management. Temlplars could probably use a little love here. Ele drain doesnt help, and spell sym is a lousy option when solo.

Dracane · July 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

For 4man Ele Drain isn't pertinent. In trials, common practice nowadays is for healers to accommodate this for you so you don't have to. One healer runs a resto on their off-bar to maintain Force Siphon. The other healer runs a destro on the off-bar to maintain Ele Drain. The cast itself is a trivial time/resource sink, and with this task being offloaded to your group members, all you need to do is weave your light/med attacks as normal.

The exception to this is vMA, in which case you'd have to run it for yourself. Running it on your front bar in this case works out just fine, affording the luxury of restoration on the off-bar.

But why does he say, that you must perform a light attack in order to activate elemental drain ?
Never heared of this before.

I presume my guess is as good as yours. I think it's simply a miscommunication....

Force Siphon - requires any type of attack to proc resource return
Ele Drain - requires dealing flame, frost, or shock damage to proc the return

For Ele Drain, I think it's just assumed that the majority of resource return procs are going to be done with basic attacks from a destro. But in the case of magicka DKs and Sorcs, this could easily come from class abilities as well. That assumption is more readily reserved for magicka NBs (who are using only Elemental Blockade and light attacks in most cases) and magicka Templars (who only have a couple of fire-type skills, otherwise are in the same boat as magblades).

I think it's important to note just how versatile the skill actually is. Using Elemental Blockade as an example, since it's used universally, every tick (per second) will proc the return, so simply having it hit the Ele Drain target at all is sufficient. But what happens when we also account for light/med/heavy weaves, and in the case of Sorcs and DKs, liquid lightning, whip, engulfing flames, eruption, boundless storm, overload, mages fury.... I'm certain I left a couple out. It does appear to some extent that the benefit of these skills is skewed in favor of DKs and Sorcs, but then again, they don't have something like Siphoning Attacks. Regardless of perspective, and assuming that we're targeting the right enemies, the return procs are all but guaranteed.

And wrong. No damage over time effect will proc elemental drain.
Wall of elements does not proc it, burning effects don't, nothing does.

Only direct hits like flame lash will proc it. Same goes for force siphon. But force siphon also has an internal cooldown of 0,5 seconds

If I am mistaken then I apologize. But then... why did you ask me?

Did you consider the other skills I mentioned, or only WoE? I didn't say burning effects, and unless proven otherwise I stand by Engulfing Flame, Eruption, Mages Fury, Boundless Storm, and Overload. They all have direct damage components that occur between weaves (with the exception of Boundless Storm, which functions differently than AoE DoTs). So if your basic attack weaves aren't netting a proc, one of these will undoubtedly do so.

Also, when was the last time you tested this? I'd be interested in seeing the results if you have analyzed any or all of the skills in question.

As I said, NO damage over time effect procs elemental drain. This includes engulfing flame, eriuption, boundless storm etc. Mages furies initial bolt will proc it, the explosion will not. overload will proc it as well.

I grow tired of talking circles with you; I am not referring to the damage over time component. Nevermind then, I will believe my own results.

Excuse me ? Boundless storm and all these things are considered damage over time effects for the game and these will not proc elemental drain. You have no results, that's it. Your results would tell you, that none of these things proc elemental drain, sadly.

They could at least make it so, that elemental drain restores a tiny tiny amount on dots

JinMori · July 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I think this is only potentially and issue with Templars. Perhaps a change to include a proc from sweep might be okay. Every other class its really not an issue, especially in group play. It's a healers job to run ele, period end of story. I say it all the time, if you call yourself a healer and wont run Ele, you suck at life and should stick to DPS. In group content, NBs and sorcs will proc from Force pulse and Blockade, and DKs proc on just about everything.

The only solo content really worth talking about is VMA. NBs will lose force pulse for funnel, but they have siphoning strikes to cover sustain. I would never run ele on a NB in VMA. Sorcs have overload and Dark Conversion to help with resources, again not running ele drain. DK is probably the one class where it is actually worth slotting. They do struggle with resources, and lack burst and range, so ele is a natural fit for both the DPS boost and the magic management. Temlplars could probably use a little love here. Ele drain doesnt help, and spell sym is a lousy option when solo.

the only reson i would want elemental drain to be changed it's because it would allow different build setups, like a dw on a mag dk, right now mag dk has to take dual destro because of this proc change on elemental drain, because without it the resource managment would be 0, also it would benefit mag templars, because sometimes channeled focus is just not enough.

Autolycus · July 2016

Dracane wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

For 4man Ele Drain isn't pertinent. In trials, common practice nowadays is for healers to accommodate this for you so you don't have to. One healer runs a resto on their off-bar to maintain Force Siphon. The other healer runs a destro on the off-bar to maintain Ele Drain. The cast itself is a trivial time/resource sink, and with this task being offloaded to your group members, all you need to do is weave your light/med attacks as normal.

The exception to this is vMA, in which case you'd have to run it for yourself. Running it on your front bar in this case works out just fine, affording the luxury of restoration on the off-bar.

But why does he say, that you must perform a light attack in order to activate elemental drain ?
Never heared of this before.

I presume my guess is as good as yours. I think it's simply a miscommunication....

Force Siphon - requires any type of attack to proc resource return
Ele Drain - requires dealing flame, frost, or shock damage to proc the return

For Ele Drain, I think it's just assumed that the majority of resource return procs are going to be done with basic attacks from a destro. But in the case of magicka DKs and Sorcs, this could easily come from class abilities as well. That assumption is more readily reserved for magicka NBs (who are using only Elemental Blockade and light attacks in most cases) and magicka Templars (who only have a couple of fire-type skills, otherwise are in the same boat as magblades).

I think it's important to note just how versatile the skill actually is. Using Elemental Blockade as an example, since it's used universally, every tick (per second) will proc the return, so simply having it hit the Ele Drain target at all is sufficient. But what happens when we also account for light/med/heavy weaves, and in the case of Sorcs and DKs, liquid lightning, whip, engulfing flames, eruption, boundless storm, overload, mages fury.... I'm certain I left a couple out. It does appear to some extent that the benefit of these skills is skewed in favor of DKs and Sorcs, but then again, they don't have something like Siphoning Attacks. Regardless of perspective, and assuming that we're targeting the right enemies, the return procs are all but guaranteed.

And wrong. No damage over time effect will proc elemental drain.
Wall of elements does not proc it, burning effects don't, nothing does.

Only direct hits like flame lash will proc it. Same goes for force siphon. But force siphon also has an internal cooldown of 0,5 seconds

If I am mistaken then I apologize. But then... why did you ask me?

Did you consider the other skills I mentioned, or only WoE? I didn't say burning effects, and unless proven otherwise I stand by Engulfing Flame, Eruption, Mages Fury, Boundless Storm, and Overload. They all have direct damage components that occur between weaves (with the exception of Boundless Storm, which functions differently than AoE DoTs). So if your basic attack weaves aren't netting a proc, one of these will undoubtedly do so.

Also, when was the last time you tested this? I'd be interested in seeing the results if you have analyzed any or all of the skills in question.

As I said, NO damage over time effect procs elemental drain. This includes engulfing flame, eriuption, boundless storm etc. Mages furies initial bolt will proc it, the explosion will not. overload will proc it as well.

I grow tired of talking circles with you; I am not referring to the damage over time component. Nevermind then, I will believe my own results.

Excuse me ? Boundless storm and all these things are considered damage over time effects for the game and these will not proc elemental drain. You have no results, that's it. Your results would tell you, that none of these things proc elemental drain, sadly.

They could at least make it so, that elemental drain restores a tiny tiny amount on dots

Engulfing Flames and Eruption both have direct damage components. Both of them will proc Ele Drain on their initial hit, not from the DoT portion. Do you disagree? If so, prove it. Because my results show that the initial hit will. Just the same as the initial direct damage component of Crippling Grasp will proc Siphon Spirit. Direct damage from a "DoT skill" is no different than a basic attack.

Why is this relevant? Because these returns are very valuable to magicka dps, particularly to DKs and Sorcs. It may be a matter of perspective for you, and that's fine. But to many of us, the more potential procs one can get, the better one can guarantee sustain (which is a challenging feat in a world where everything calls for damage). If I light attack > eruption > light attack > engulfing flames > light attack > whip - I am virtually guaranteed a return proc each second, if not from the light attacks, then from the direct damage component of those skills. The DoT portion doesn't matter in this context; because every attack in this rotation has a chance to proc Ele Drain. Although the actual rotation is a bit different, it's the concept that matters for this discussion.

More noteworthy still is the combination of Siphon Spirit and Ele Drain, because they are not mutually exclusive. My results suggest that the ICD on Siphon is 1s (where you say 0.5s). Using your ICD instead (because it's clearly more favorable) means that Force Siphon alone can grant ~800 magicka per second and in addition to Ele Drain. This is far from useless. In fact, that's comparable to 1600 magicka recovery, and for zero effort (since the healer is doing all the work, and the dps need only do their normal rotation). The catch, obviously, is that it's a single-target debuff. Coordination of kill priorities and maximum up-time on Ele Drain and Siphon is assumed.

I can defer to you on Boundless Storm, based solely on logic. I've tested many things with this skill, but Ele Drain procs is not one of them. It stands to reason that it will not proc.

Dracane · July 2016

Autolycus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Autolycus wrote: »

For 4man Ele Drain isn't pertinent. In trials, common practice nowadays is for healers to accommodate this for you so you don't have to. One healer runs a resto on their off-bar to maintain Force Siphon. The other healer runs a destro on the off-bar to maintain Ele Drain. The cast itself is a trivial time/resource sink, and with this task being offloaded to your group members, all you need to do is weave your light/med attacks as normal.

The exception to this is vMA, in which case you'd have to run it for yourself. Running it on your front bar in this case works out just fine, affording the luxury of restoration on the off-bar.

But why does he say, that you must perform a light attack in order to activate elemental drain ?
Never heared of this before.

I presume my guess is as good as yours. I think it's simply a miscommunication....

Force Siphon - requires any type of attack to proc resource return
Ele Drain - requires dealing flame, frost, or shock damage to proc the return

For Ele Drain, I think it's just assumed that the majority of resource return procs are going to be done with basic attacks from a destro. But in the case of magicka DKs and Sorcs, this could easily come from class abilities as well. That assumption is more readily reserved for magicka NBs (who are using only Elemental Blockade and light attacks in most cases) and magicka Templars (who only have a couple of fire-type skills, otherwise are in the same boat as magblades).

I think it's important to note just how versatile the skill actually is. Using Elemental Blockade as an example, since it's used universally, every tick (per second) will proc the return, so simply having it hit the Ele Drain target at all is sufficient. But what happens when we also account for light/med/heavy weaves, and in the case of Sorcs and DKs, liquid lightning, whip, engulfing flames, eruption, boundless storm, overload, mages fury.... I'm certain I left a couple out. It does appear to some extent that the benefit of these skills is skewed in favor of DKs and Sorcs, but then again, they don't have something like Siphoning Attacks. Regardless of perspective, and assuming that we're targeting the right enemies, the return procs are all but guaranteed.

And wrong. No damage over time effect will proc elemental drain.
Wall of elements does not proc it, burning effects don't, nothing does.

Only direct hits like flame lash will proc it. Same goes for force siphon. But force siphon also has an internal cooldown of 0,5 seconds

If I am mistaken then I apologize. But then... why did you ask me?

Did you consider the other skills I mentioned, or only WoE? I didn't say burning effects, and unless proven otherwise I stand by Engulfing Flame, Eruption, Mages Fury, Boundless Storm, and Overload. They all have direct damage components that occur between weaves (with the exception of Boundless Storm, which functions differently than AoE DoTs). So if your basic attack weaves aren't netting a proc, one of these will undoubtedly do so.

Also, when was the last time you tested this? I'd be interested in seeing the results if you have analyzed any or all of the skills in question.

As I said, NO damage over time effect procs elemental drain. This includes engulfing flame, eriuption, boundless storm etc. Mages furies initial bolt will proc it, the explosion will not. overload will proc it as well.

I grow tired of talking circles with you; I am not referring to the damage over time component. Nevermind then, I will believe my own results.

Excuse me ? Boundless storm and all these things are considered damage over time effects for the game and these will not proc elemental drain. You have no results, that's it. Your results would tell you, that none of these things proc elemental drain, sadly.

They could at least make it so, that elemental drain restores a tiny tiny amount on dots

Engulfing Flames and Eruption both have direct damage components. Both of them will proc Ele Drain on their initial hit, not from the DoT portion. Do you disagree? If so, prove it. Because my results show that the initial hit will. Just the same as the initial direct damage component of Crippling Grasp will proc Siphon Spirit. Direct damage from a "DoT skill" is no different than a basic attack.

Why is this relevant? Because these returns are very valuable to magicka dps, particularly to DKs and Sorcs. It may be a matter of perspective for you, and that's fine. But to many of us, the more potential procs one can get, the better one can guarantee sustain (which is a challenging feat in a world where everything calls for damage). If I light attack > eruption > light attack > engulfing flames > light attack > whip - I am virtually guaranteed a return proc each second, if not from the light attacks, then from the direct damage component of those skills. The DoT portion doesn't matter in this context; because every attack in this rotation has a chance to proc Ele Drain. Although the actual rotation is a bit different, it's the concept that matters for this discussion.

More noteworthy still is the combination of Siphon Spirit and Ele Drain, because they are not mutually exclusive. My results suggest that the ICD on Siphon is 1s (where you say 0.5s). Using your ICD instead (because it's clearly more favorable) means that Force Siphon alone can grant ~800 magicka per second and in addition to Ele Drain. This is far from useless. In fact, that's comparable to 1600 magicka recovery, and for zero effort (since the healer is doing all the work, and the dps need only do their normal rotation). The catch, obviously, is that it's a single-target debuff. Coordination of kill priorities and maximum up-time on Ele Drain and Siphon is assumed.

I can defer to you on Boundless Storm, based solely on logic. I've tested many things with this skill, but Ele Drain procs is not one of them. It stands to reason that it will not proc.

The initial hit of eruption and EF will proc it.

I was careful with force siphons cooldown. The last time I tested this ability was some patches ago. These changes were all ninja changes and not explained in the patchnotes. Things secretly change all the time. But I fear that a 1s cooldown could indeed be true.

And thanks for agreeing, that boundless storm does not proc elemental drain

JinMori · July 2016

Dracane wrote: »

Hm ? Why does elemental drain require a light or heavy attack ?
You simply apply it to a target and then your can profit from it.

I tested this again, and you were right, you don't need a light or heavy attack to proc this. but it only procs of direct damage, not dots

JinMori · July 2016

I tested this again, and you were right, you don't need a light or heavy attack to proc this. but it only procs of direct damage, not dots[/quote]
So my question changes, what about reducing the magicka return to about 200, but making dots return magicka also.

JinMori · July 2016

To clarfy things, i get about 500 magicka return from eleemental drain, i don't know the percentage return of elemental drain, 200 i thing would be a good compromise, but no more or it would become way to op.

Dracane · July 2016

JinMori wrote: »

To clarfy things, i get about 500 magicka return from eleemental drain, i don't know the percentage return of elemental drain, 200 i thing would be a good compromise, but no more or it would become way to op.

It's no percentage really . The magicka gain from elemental drain is increased by your max magicka.

JinMori · July 2016

Dracane wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

To clarfy things, i get about 500 magicka return from eleemental drain, i don't know the percentage return of elemental drain, 200 i thing would be a good compromise, but no more or it would become way to op.

It's no percentage really . The magicka gain from elemental drain is increased by your max magicka.

i just did a calculation, it seem to be around 1% magicka return

Dracane · July 2016

JinMori wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

To clarfy things, i get about 500 magicka return from eleemental drain, i don't know the percentage return of elemental drain, 200 i thing would be a good compromise, but no more or it would become way to op.

It's no percentage really . The magicka gain from elemental drain is increased by your max magicka.

i just did a calculation, it seem to be around 1% magicka return

It's 1,3% of your maximum magicka.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · July 2016

JinMori wrote: »

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I think this is only potentially and issue with Templars. Perhaps a change to include a proc from sweep might be okay. Every other class its really not an issue, especially in group play. It's a healers job to run ele, period end of story. I say it all the time, if you call yourself a healer and wont run Ele, you suck at life and should stick to DPS. In group content, NBs and sorcs will proc from Force pulse and Blockade, and DKs proc on just about everything.

The only solo content really worth talking about is VMA. NBs will lose force pulse for funnel, but they have siphoning strikes to cover sustain. I would never run ele on a NB in VMA. Sorcs have overload and Dark Conversion to help with resources, again not running ele drain. DK is probably the one class where it is actually worth slotting. They do struggle with resources, and lack burst and range, so ele is a natural fit for both the DPS boost and the magic management. Temlplars could probably use a little love here. Ele drain doesnt help, and spell sym is a lousy option when solo.

the only reson i would want elemental drain to be changed it's because it would allow different build setups, like a dw on a mag dk, right now mag dk has to take dual destro because of this proc change on elemental drain, because without it the resource managment would be 0, also it would benefit mag templars, because sometimes channeled focus is just not enough.

Well on a magic DK, all of their abilities are going to proc it even if you went to swords. A DK is never going to go Swords on Front bar in PVE, your medium weaves are too much of your total DPS. Even with unlimited magic, it would be a terrible idea. The only place I see this being an issue would be back bar DW and AoE. Some DKs like DW with talons for a little more DPS. I never liked it, but I am pretty sure burning talons (and all your other DoTs) still proc it.