Fix PVP Balance

Ishammael · July 2016

TooskSG wrote: »

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who feels this way. PvP has been a joke since 1.6. ESO PvP atm is like Little Caesar's pizza: fun when you're drunk and dont give a ***, but not something you'd take seriously.

That is a damn good quote.
Cheers

asneakybanana wrote: »

I was going to make a similar thread last night. I agree with a lot of your suggestions however, If damage reduction goes to 12% instead of 50% you are going to see people hitting 30k prox dets, 25k soul tethers, 25k dizzying swings, 30k incaps and all sorts of stupid damage. While I would love to see this while running solo on a DK doing a max damage dragon leap build or on my prox tether NB as someone who runs in a 12 man from time to time as well I can just imagine how broken that would be with the way roots are right now and the barrier nerf. If they were to reduce the battle spirit changes I would say going to 20-25% and reverting the changes to retreating maneuvers w/ them basically being instantly broken and the changes to barrier in order to have some basic way to mitigate the damage and stay mobile.

Another change I would like to see is with negate. While last past it was way too weak as it currently stands if you have 5 or 6 sorcs just layering negates on a battlefield it is basically impossible to counter. Healers cannot heal in negate, it cannot be broken out of, and there is no way to have another sorc negate on top of it as was the case in 1.5 and before. Negate also makes it almost a must for people to play stam as stam is basically not affected at all by negate, they can still heal, they can still aoe, and they can still cc people. I would love to see negate go back to the way it was in 1.5 where instead of just instantly removing ground effects and then having ground effects be able to be cast again, it would permanently remove the ground effects in its aoe however, you can CC break out of it and cast non ground based heals and counter the negate with a negate of your own. I think it would be interesting if this change was implemented and the damage/healing was left in the game but reduced by 70% percent or so.

One last "meta" change I would like to see is bringing back dynamic ultimate. While I wouldnt like to see quite the amount of ultimate generation as we saw back in 1.5 where every single initial hit or tick of damage gave you 1 ultimate point as well as 1 ultimate point for every crit as well as 1 ultimate point for every tick of healing, I would like to see potentially 1 ultimate point for every initial hit on a player. So you have 20 players running you down and you cast a fire ring that hits all 20 players you would get 20 ultimate regardless of whether or not you have dots ticking afterwards or get crits you would only get 20 ultimate from that cast and then would need to cast another skill in order to generate more ultimate. As for healers I think they should get ultimate from every tick of a heal since they are only hitting 6 people with heals instead of up to 60 that a dps can hit. This system wouldnt really affect 1v1 pvp as it would be extremely similar ultimate gen to what they are getting now, in large group pvp players would be penalized by stacking up since they would be giving the enemy more ultimate per cast.

On a smaller balance scale I would like to see magicka brought into line with stamina. As it is stamina blows magicka builds out of the water in small scale because of survivability, damage, and mobility. A magicka character simply has no way to get away from a stamina player, the stamina player just has to use a gap closer over and over which costs a lot less % of their stam bar than a magicka player using streak or sprinting away. Stamina also has built in major expedition from multiple skills where as magicka does not. Although I dont want to see stamina nerfed down to magicka I would like to see magicka buffed up to where stamina is, whether thats giving them more survivabilty by reverting the shield nerf and blocking regen nerf, or giving them more damage and escapability something needs to be done.

Just my 2 cents though and im sure zos will never even consider any of those changes.

Would love to see dynamic ultimate come back.

RE: huge damage. The scaling equations needs to change. Damage simply should show numbers greater than your HP. A good suggestion from this and other threads is to simply removal stats from the damage equations.

kevlarto_ESO · July 2016

The game needs soft caps and hard caps, I agree OP

DUTCH_REAPER · July 2016

Step 1 fix the lag

ScottK1994 · July 2016

How can they balance such high calibre group combat? Honestly we can't have it all. It should be balanced for PvE and small scale PvP. They went a bit mad with the size of cyrodiil. I bet they thought it was going to be the most epic thing ever but it's average. You can't force amazing world pvp, all the MMOs with the best world pvp had it done unintentionally so awesome. Blizzard struggled with the world pvp of Burning Crusade

ScottK1994 · July 2016

People enjoyed it a lot but they couldn't balance world combat at all(and they had 3 years or so experience in an mmo. They're such heavyweights now)

HoloYoitsu · July 2016

Here is the biggest problem with PvP currently.

Didn't say lag, cuz lag would be the slowest problem with PvP.

Xsorus · July 2016

ScottK1994 wrote: »

How can they balance such high calibre group combat? Honestly we can't have it all. It should be balanced for PvE and small scale PvP. They went a bit mad with the size of cyrodiil. I bet they thought it was going to be the most epic thing ever but it's average. You can't force amazing world pvp, all the MMOs with the best world pvp had it done unintentionally so awesome. Blizzard struggled with the world pvp of Burning Crusade

huh; They weren't designing it for World PvP

They were making basically DAOC's pvp system..

Problem is they skipped certain steps that made DAOC's PvP system work.

For example; the whole Imperial City fiasco.....It should of been closed off based on keep ownership...This is how Darkness Falls worked in DAOC and was very important to what DF actually provided in PVP..which is a siphon for the Overpopulated Realm.

Instead they just left it opened...

outsideworld76 · July 2016

Biggest problem is the lag.

zuto40 · July 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

1. The Champion System needs to be disabled for every Cyrodiil campaign.
2. Hard and Softcaps need to be implemented in Battle Spirit that will only be in effect in Cyrodiil.
3. The damage reduction, shield reduction, and healing reduction in Cyrodiil reduced from 50% to 12%
4. The health bonus from Battle Spirit increased from 5,000 health to 7,500 health.
5. these poisons you introduced with Dark Brotherhood removed from PVP
6. Remove Dodge and Bolt Escape cost penalty
7. Remove Stam Regen while blocking nerf or add it as a 1 hand and shield passive

#MakePVPGreatAgain

1: CP is good on paper, it makes the players who've played longer stronger, but it makes them too strong, it needs a complete overhaul but i dont think it should be removed
2: Hardcap max stam and magic at 40k with softcaps at 35k, hard cap wpn and spell dmg at 6k with soft caps at 4k, hard cap regen at 2500 with soft cap at 2k BUT leave the health regen hard cap at 6k, with a soft cap at 3k
3: Remove the reductions completely
4: Remove this, double base health
5: Remove poisons
6: Remove penalty
7: Add stam regen

here are a few suggestions of my own

1: change all gear to have a cp 160 version

2: Add a very small buff to each alliance rank to make those high leveled and skilled players extremely fierce, 1% more damage at volunteer, 1% more health at private, ect which could lead up to maybe a 10% damage buff, 10% max stam/magic 10% more recov, 10% more healing, 10% more health at grand overlord

3: Add a feature where each players starts with 1 life in a campaign and must buy more with AP but being revived by a soul gem restores the current life thus not wasting a life(new players start with 10k ap to compensate for how often theyll get rekt)

4: Add player issued missons which give AP to whoever completes it, starting at tribune, EXAMPLE: tribune has a chalman fetish, issues a misson for chalman with a 100k ap reward, everyone there gets a cut of it, and the tribune loses 100k ap from his inventory and he cannot claim the reward for himself, only 1 per day

5: Add a bounty system, each kill adds an extra 200 ap to your character, say you get 30 kills thats an extra 6k ap to your name, caps at 10k

6: Add a player bounty system, much like the high pvp levels issuing a misson its the same thing except with players, so for everyone who doesnt like fengrush, just post a 300k ap bounty on him and youll get him in no time

only 2 per day

7: Add alliances with other alliances guilds, say i have an ep guild called pact scrubs, and the dc have a guild called dc goons, we are mad at a dominion magplar emp with a zerg of 100 magplars with nothing but radiant and BoL on their bars, we form a 1 hour alliance for 1 million ap from each guild bank(see #8) we temporarily cannot harm people in that specific guild, so now our 2 pug zergs with nothing but proxy on stam builds and steel tornado on magic builds can spam aoes without killing each other by accident

8: Make players choose 1 main PvP guild they wish to represent, all the ap they earn for themselves also goes into the guilds bank essentially doubling the ap but not really, it is then used by the leader of the guild or anyone with permission to use it to do certain things in pvp like buy extra guards at a keep for example or place a 100mil bounty on the zerg bomber who keeps make you and your pug zerg cry

9: Add more things to buy with ap

I know a few of these systems could be abused but i think theyd be pretty cool to have, maybe not have the missions count on leaderboard rankings as a way to help stop abuse?

Yolokin_Swagonborn · July 2016

This post is to address how to implement the second point: Better, smarter soft-caps.

What happens if we reduce or remove the effect Stamina and Magicka Pools have on tooltip damage and then also remove battle spirit?

As per @Roehamad_Ali , Math has been requested. So let do maths.
Warning: Quick and dirty estimations with fudge-factor coefficients to simplify the damage calculation formula. Tested against observed values to be within +/- 10 of the observed tooltip damage. PM me if you want me to show more work.

Test subject: 300CP Redguard Sorcerer on PTS. No CP into Mighty, medium armor passives, sorc passives, or anything that modifies the damage tool-tip other than max stam and weapon damage.

Without any gear, any champion points assigned, and no weapon or weapon damage, we get this:

We will set uppercut 1191 damage as our base level for simplicity. Now lets keep weapon damage at 0 and add stamina. Adding +stam gear (hawks eye, darkstride etc), 64 attribute points into stamina (64*111=7,104 extra stam), 100 CP into green tree (another 3,735 stamina), redguard passive 10% stam, bound armaments 8% stam, and health/stam food (4500 stam).

So with over 42k Stamina, we get a 6.3k tooltip, over 5 times more than the damage we got with only 8k stamina and we have no weapon damage or weapon whatsoever. Note that this still gets halved by battle spirit.

Now lets look at weapon damage holding stamina constant. Removing all extra stam back to the base value (7958) and adding a gold nirnhoned greatsword.

Notice that with 0 weapon damage coming from sets or buffs, your weapon's damage becomes your weapon damage. For example, an iron weapon that has 198 damage will give you 198 weapon damage. Here are a few examples over a range of values.

As you can see, without the battle spirit de-buff, these are decent values for uppercut. Remember that this is without 12% extra weapon damage from agility medium armor passive, without heavy weapons passive 8% and without empower (20%). If you wanted to run a gank build with 4000 base weapon damage (4480 with agility) using all those buffs, a buffed strike would hit for 8206*1.05*1.20=10339 over 10k before armor mitigation.

Now lets put both of these values together. Lets take a typical stam build with about 35k stamina and 2.5k weapon damage.
Here is a redguard running food wearing Hundings + agility + masters/malestrom greatsword.

Lets breakdown the tooltip to see where the damage comes from.

With this common setup, more of the tooltip damage is contributed by the stamina pool than the weapon damage.
1191+4050+3864=9105

After battle spirit, the damage would be 9105/2=4553. If we had no battle spirit, and the effect your resource pool was capped at base value, you would have 1191+3864=5055. So the base damage of the skill has a much greater effect on damage (24% instead of 13%).

This would help flatten the range of damage achievable in PvP (which is what @Sypher was talking about) which will help lesser used skills and also make hybrid builds viable again. Pelenial's Aptitude would be an amazing set with this cap system, no CP, and no battle spirit.

I haven't tested this for shields and heals but I expect similar results. Note that this is a multiple step solution, you also have to get disable the champion system, and tweak/reduce/cap regen so that skills can't be spammed indefinitely. Adding 25% extra damage on top of everything else with Mighty is just ridiculous.

This is how you implement soft-caps again without the old way. If you stack 45k stamina you still have the benefit of having a huge stamina pool but it doesn't also give you monster damage as well.

ScottK1994 · July 2016

I love a petition. But I can't sign. PvP in this game is world PvP. The map is huge and the combat is huge too. How can they balance 25vs25 combat? It may need tweaked all the time but they can't balance it. They can't(properly, like make equal) balance games like WoW and they balance the PvP on arena mostly

Bashev · July 2016

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

This post is to address how to implement the second point: Better, smarter soft-caps.

What happens if we reduce or remove the effect Stamina and Magicka Pools have on tooltip damage and then also remove battle spirit?

As per @Roehamad_Ali , Math has been requested. So let do maths.
Warning: Quick and dirty estimations with fudge-factor coefficients to simplify the damage calculation formula. Tested against observed values to be within +/- 10 of the observed tooltip damage. PM me if you want me to show more work.

Test subject: 300CP Redguard Sorcerer on PTS. No CP into Mighty, medium armor passives, sorc passives, or anything that modifies the damage tool-tip other than max stam and weapon damage.

Without any gear, any champion points assigned, and no weapon or weapon damage, we get this:

We will set uppercut 1191 damage as our base level for simplicity. Now lets keep weapon damage at 0 and add stamina. Adding +stam gear (hawks eye, darkstride etc), 64 attribute points into stamina (64*111=7,104 extra stam), 100 CP into green tree (another 3,735 stamina), redguard passive 10% stam, bound armaments 8% stam, and health/stam food (4500 stam).

So with over 42k Stamina, we get a 6.3k tooltip, over 5 times more than the damage we got with only 8k stamina and we have no weapon damage or weapon whatsoever. Note that this still gets halved by battle spirit.

Now lets look at weapon damage holding stamina constant. Removing all extra stam back to the base value (7958) and adding a gold nirnhoned greatsword.

Notice that with 0 weapon damage coming from sets or buffs, your weapon's damage becomes your weapon damage. For example, an iron weapon that has 198 damage will give you 198 weapon damage. Here are a few examples over a range of values.

As you can see, without the battle spirit de-buff, these are decent values for uppercut. Remember that this is without 12% extra damage from agility medium armor passive, without heavy weapons passive 8% and without empower (20%). If you wanted to run a gank build with 4000 weapon damage using all those buffs 7455*1.12*1.05*1.20=10520. So a buffed strike would hit for over 10k before armor mitigation.

Now lets put both of these values together. Lets take a typical stam build with about 35k stamina and 2.5k weapon damage.
Here is a redguard running food wearing Hundings + agility + masters/malestrom greatsword.

Lets breakdown the tooltip to see where the damage comes from.

With this common setup, more of the tooltip damage is contributed by the stamina pool than the weapon damage.
1191+4050+3864=9105

After battle spirit, the damage would be 9105/2=4553. If we had no battle spirit, and the effect your resource pool was capped at base value, you would have 1191+3864=5055. So the base damage of the skill has a much greater effect on damage (24% instead of 13%) which will help lesser used skills and also make hybrid builds viable again. Pelenial's Aptitude would be an amazing set with this cap system, no CP, and no battle spirit.

I haven't tested this for shields and heals but I expect similar results. Note that this is a multiple step solution, you also have to get disable the champion system so that skills can't be spammed indefinitely.

This is how you implement soft-caps again without the old way. If you stack 45k stamina you still have the benefit of having a huge stamina pool but it doesn't also give you monster damage as well. @Sypher This post works for your thread on damage.

This will not change anything. The core system should be changed. Healing should be separated from the damage.
Also I want to point that the agility passive from medium armor does not increase the damage with 12%, it increase the weapon damage value.

Now on your suggestion. If we just remove the resource pool from the calculation people will stack only damage and regen. Why do I need 40k pool if I have 4k regen? People will find the perfect balance between pool and regen and it will be even easier to build offensively with sustain because you just have to increase 2 stats, now you need 3. On top of that some classes will be super unbalanced with Pelenial's set. Can you imagine a stam Templar who heals as a magicka one and use stamina for rolling and DPS?

ScottK1994 · July 2016

Im going to be that guy and say it should go the world of warcraft route and have a unique PvP stat(from PvP gear)I can't remember the effect of the PvP stat in WoW but it actually made the game easier for them to balance in PvP

ScottK1994 · July 2016

I think it was called resistance.

Apparently(I've just looked. I don't know the whole system) they have a few different PvP stats now. I think that might be a good route. Cyrodiil giving you gear that makes you good in cyrodiil but not great for pve

Amdar_Godkiller · July 2016

The game treats magic and stam differently though.

Stamina builds are less tied to Max Stam than they are to Weapon Damage. There are only 3 ways to
increase Max Stamina by a percentage multiplier: racial passives (10% max I think), Undaunted Mettle (6%), and
Sorcs can use Bound Armaments (8%).

Stam builds also get a better than 20% increase to weapon damage as well though. (medium armor + Flawless
Dawnbreaker).

Meanwhile Magic builds will almost always get a 9-10% bonus as most are Dunmer, Altmer, and Breton. They also
have access to a Sorc skill increasing Magic, and they get UM. But there are also sets that increase Magic by a
percentage, and there's inner light and other mages guild skills.

So while a redguard Sorc can increase his Stam by 24%, and Altmer MagSorc can easily boost it by 35-40%.

And I'm not aware of any % boosts to spell damage.

Point is, releasing Stam and Magic from the equation would be a huge boost to Stamina builds.

And there's nothing wrong with the way they're currently doing it. The problem is that this is being used
to scale defensive capabilities as well, which creates a situation where there's no opportunity cost towards
being massively OP in every possible way. Your ability to to knock someone's head off or blow them up
with Lightning shouldn't determine how good you heal or dodge or build a bubble of energy to hide in.

It's these skills that need to be unbound.

The other problem isn't the caps that no longer exist, but rather the one that needlessly remains: resistance.And
resistance is ultimately what defensive skills should scale to in order to force actual build dilemmas.

Maybe also slightly nerf regen bonuses.

That's what I think, at least.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · July 2016

Bashev wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

This post is to address how to implement the second point: Better, smarter soft-caps.

What happens if we reduce or remove the effect Stamina and Magicka Pools have on tooltip damage and then also remove battle spirit?

As per @Roehamad_Ali , Math has been requested. So let do maths.
Warning: Quick and dirty estimations with fudge-factor coefficients to simplify the damage calculation formula. Tested against observed values to be within +/- 10 of the observed tooltip damage. PM me if you want me to show more work.

Test subject: 300CP Redguard Sorcerer on PTS. No CP into Mighty, medium armor passives, sorc passives, or anything that modifies the damage tool-tip other than max stam and weapon damage.

Without any gear, any champion points assigned, and no weapon or weapon damage, we get this:

We will set uppercut 1191 damage as our base level for simplicity. Now lets keep weapon damage at 0 and add stamina. Adding +stam gear (hawks eye, darkstride etc), 64 attribute points into stamina (64*111=7,104 extra stam), 100 CP into green tree (another 3,735 stamina), redguard passive 10% stam, bound armaments 8% stam, and health/stam food (4500 stam).

So with over 42k Stamina, we get a 6.3k tooltip, over 5 times more than the damage we got with only 8k stamina and we have no weapon damage or weapon whatsoever. Note that this still gets halved by battle spirit.

Now lets look at weapon damage holding stamina constant. Removing all extra stam back to the base value (7958) and adding a gold nirnhoned greatsword.

Notice that with 0 weapon damage coming from sets or buffs, your weapon's damage becomes your weapon damage. For example, an iron weapon that has 198 damage will give you 198 weapon damage. Here are a few examples over a range of values.

As you can see, without the battle spirit de-buff, these are decent values for uppercut. Remember that this is without 12% extra damage from agility medium armor passive, without heavy weapons passive 8% and without empower (20%). If you wanted to run a gank build with 4000 weapon damage using all those buffs 7455*1.12*1.05*1.20=10520. So a buffed strike would hit for over 10k before armor mitigation.

Now lets put both of these values together. Lets take a typical stam build with about 35k stamina and 2.5k weapon damage.
Here is a redguard running food wearing Hundings + agility + masters/malestrom greatsword.

Lets breakdown the tooltip to see where the damage comes from.

With this common setup, more of the tooltip damage is contributed by the stamina pool than the weapon damage.
1191+4050+3864=9105

After battle spirit, the damage would be 9105/2=4553. If we had no battle spirit, and the effect your resource pool was capped at base value, you would have 1191+3864=5055. So the base damage of the skill has a much greater effect on damage (24% instead of 13%) which will help lesser used skills and also make hybrid builds viable again. Pelenial's Aptitude would be an amazing set with this cap system, no CP, and no battle spirit.

I haven't tested this for shields and heals but I expect similar results. Note that this is a multiple step solution, you also have to get disable the champion system so that skills can't be spammed indefinitely.

This is how you implement soft-caps again without the old way. If you stack 45k stamina you still have the benefit of having a huge stamina pool but it doesn't also give you monster damage as well. @Sypher This post works for your thread on damage.

This will not change anything. The core system should be changed. Healing should be separated from the damage.
Also I want to point that the agility passive from medium armor does not increase the damage with 12%, it increase the weapon damage value.

Now on your suggestion. If we just remove the resource pool from the calculation people will stack only damage and regen. Why do I need 40k pool if I have 4k regen? People will find the perfect balance between pool and regen and it will be even easier to build offensively with sustain because you just have to increase 2 stats, now you need 3. On top of that some classes will be super unbalanced with Pelenial's set. Can you imagine a stam Templar who heals as a magicka one and use stamina for rolling and DPS?

Yes I can imagine it. It's called a hybrid build and it was actually effective and extremely fun to run in 1.5 with proper softcaps. You are missing the part where there is no champion system so if you build for max damage, you will have less regen. Base regen values may have to be tweaked or capped like they used to be to encourage people to use sustain or utility sets.

Look at how low regen was capped at back in the day.

The cap is the equivalent of about 1300 regen for magicka/stamina. That is extremely low by today's standards but the game played really well like that.

Imagine the howls of indignation from the new generation of PvPers if ZOS reintroduced regen caps. "You mean I have to actually manage my resources and build for sustain instead of stacking damage to the roof?!?!?!? Oh the humanity!!!"

My suggestion of capping attributes effect on damage can't stand on its own. It has to be implemented with the rest of @RinaldoGandolphi 's suggestions.

P.S. thanks for catching the agility calculation error, assuming you can get an extra 12% weapon damage over 4k, it still hits for around 10k.

ScottK1994 · July 2016

So no one else likes the idea of equipment that works well in cyrodiil map but not in trials/dungeons(it will work but won't cause ideal damage)

Like a stat decreasing either damage done to a player or an increase in damage on players, whichever is needed. Maybe both.

Bashev · July 2016

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

This post is to address how to implement the second point: Better, smarter soft-caps.

What happens if we reduce or remove the effect Stamina and Magicka Pools have on tooltip damage and then also remove battle spirit?

As per @Roehamad_Ali , Math has been requested. So let do maths.
Warning: Quick and dirty estimations with fudge-factor coefficients to simplify the damage calculation formula. Tested against observed values to be within +/- 10 of the observed tooltip damage. PM me if you want me to show more work.

Test subject: 300CP Redguard Sorcerer on PTS. No CP into Mighty, medium armor passives, sorc passives, or anything that modifies the damage tool-tip other than max stam and weapon damage.

Without any gear, any champion points assigned, and no weapon or weapon damage, we get this:

We will set uppercut 1191 damage as our base level for simplicity. Now lets keep weapon damage at 0 and add stamina. Adding +stam gear (hawks eye, darkstride etc), 64 attribute points into stamina (64*111=7,104 extra stam), 100 CP into green tree (another 3,735 stamina), redguard passive 10% stam, bound armaments 8% stam, and health/stam food (4500 stam).

So with over 42k Stamina, we get a 6.3k tooltip, over 5 times more than the damage we got with only 8k stamina and we have no weapon damage or weapon whatsoever. Note that this still gets halved by battle spirit.

Now lets look at weapon damage holding stamina constant. Removing all extra stam back to the base value (7958) and adding a gold nirnhoned greatsword.

Notice that with 0 weapon damage coming from sets or buffs, your weapon's damage becomes your weapon damage. For example, an iron weapon that has 198 damage will give you 198 weapon damage. Here are a few examples over a range of values.

As you can see, without the battle spirit de-buff, these are decent values for uppercut. Remember that this is without 12% extra damage from agility medium armor passive, without heavy weapons passive 8% and without empower (20%). If you wanted to run a gank build with 4000 weapon damage using all those buffs 7455*1.12*1.05*1.20=10520. So a buffed strike would hit for over 10k before armor mitigation.

Now lets put both of these values together. Lets take a typical stam build with about 35k stamina and 2.5k weapon damage.
Here is a redguard running food wearing Hundings + agility + masters/malestrom greatsword.

Lets breakdown the tooltip to see where the damage comes from.

With this common setup, more of the tooltip damage is contributed by the stamina pool than the weapon damage.
1191+4050+3864=9105

After battle spirit, the damage would be 9105/2=4553. If we had no battle spirit, and the effect your resource pool was capped at base value, you would have 1191+3864=5055. So the base damage of the skill has a much greater effect on damage (24% instead of 13%) which will help lesser used skills and also make hybrid builds viable again. Pelenial's Aptitude would be an amazing set with this cap system, no CP, and no battle spirit.

I haven't tested this for shields and heals but I expect similar results. Note that this is a multiple step solution, you also have to get disable the champion system so that skills can't be spammed indefinitely.

This is how you implement soft-caps again without the old way. If you stack 45k stamina you still have the benefit of having a huge stamina pool but it doesn't also give you monster damage as well. @Sypher This post works for your thread on damage.

This will not change anything. The core system should be changed. Healing should be separated from the damage.
Also I want to point that the agility passive from medium armor does not increase the damage with 12%, it increase the weapon damage value.

Now on your suggestion. If we just remove the resource pool from the calculation people will stack only damage and regen. Why do I need 40k pool if I have 4k regen? People will find the perfect balance between pool and regen and it will be even easier to build offensively with sustain because you just have to increase 2 stats, now you need 3. On top of that some classes will be super unbalanced with Pelenial's set. Can you imagine a stam Templar who heals as a magicka one and use stamina for rolling and DPS?

Yes I can imagine it. It's called a hybrid build and it was actually effective and extremely fun to run in 1.5 with proper softcaps. You are missing the part where there is no champion system so if you build for max damage, you will have less regen. Base regen values may have to be tweaked or capped like they used to be to encourage people to use sustain or utility sets.

Look at how low regen was capped at back in the day.

The cap is the equivalent of about 1300 regen for magicka/stamina. That is extremely low by today's standards but the game played really well like that.

Imagine the howls of indignation from the new generation of PvPers if ZOS reintroduced regen caps. "You mean I have to actually manage my resources and build for sustain instead of stacking damage to the roof?!?!?!? Oh the humanity!!!"

My suggestion of capping attributes effect on damage can't stand on its own. It has to be implemented with the rest of @RinaldoGandolphi 's suggestions.

In this case I agree. I didnt get that you wanted to have cap on everything. I am for the soft cap but PvE players will not accept it. They want to be powerful and to measure their numbers. Also I dont believe that ZoS will throw away the shity CP system because this is the only progression that they have. I understood a long time ago that ZoS sacrificed PvP for the PvE. They just did their main marketing based on PvP two and half years ago. But long time ago they oriented to casual PvE gamers.

Derra · July 2016

TooskSG wrote: »

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who feels this way. PvP has been a joke since 1.6. ESO PvP atm is like Little Caesar's pizza: fun when you're drunk and dont give a ***, but not something you'd take seriously.

I personally think 1.4 and 1.5 were far worse than the first three months of 1.6.

Permablock was everywhere and on every build without exception. Nobody ran out of resources aswell. 1.6 only became silly once ppl reached 6- or 700+ cp.

Everything since orsinium was more or less the same bleh as 1.5 was.

DisgracefulMind · July 2016

Derra wrote: »

TooskSG wrote: »

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who feels this way. PvP has been a joke since 1.6. ESO PvP atm is like Little Caesar's pizza: fun when you're drunk and dont give a ***, but not something you'd take seriously.

I personally think 1.4 and 1.5 were far worse than the first three months of 1.6.

Permablock was everywhere and on every build without exception. Nobody ran out of resources aswell. 1.6 only became silly once ppl reached 6- or 700+ cp.

Everything since orsinium was more or less the same bleh as 1.5 was.

I agree with this here. The first few months of 1.6 were the sweet spot for me. I don't want 1.5 back, I want early 1.6 back.

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO · July 2016

So some people want regen and damage resistance down, others want damage down....

Let me guess the problem derives from the fact that your personal favorite build is ineffective in pvp?

Right now the game works better balance wise than it has ever done since game start. Tanks are tanky and difficult to kill, both magicka and stamina can kill effectively if they do OTHER stuff than just do damage.

Since the early days of this game you have to THINK to kill enemies, you have to debuff their self healing or regen (now), you have to CC them to prevent them from recovering and so on WHILE you do damage. Else you are pretty useless.

If you just stand in the rear and *ploink* *ploink* then you are basically useless and YOU need to change, not the game.

Volrion · July 2016

Iyas wrote: »

The biggest problem currently with PVP is lag. Nothing else. Dont care about balance if I cant even play in primetime

I agree. If I want to catch up, I can always just grind till my eyes bleed and be competitive with the top players of Cyrodiil.

At least that's within my power to do.

As for the lag, well we're *** out of luck at the moment.

ScottK1994 · July 2016

The only real problem I see with balance is there seems to be a lack of variety in a game that aims to have so many hybrid builds

ScottK1994 · July 2016

There are certain moves you always see people have in pvp even though there's a massive option for different abilities is what I mean

Volrion · July 2016

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Step 1 fix the lag

Step two, cut a hole in that box...

Wait, wrong song. Never mind.

Yolokin_Swagonborn · July 2016

Bashev wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

This post is to address how to implement the second point: Better, smarter soft-caps.

What happens if we reduce or remove the effect Stamina and Magicka Pools have on tooltip damage and then also remove battle spirit?

As per @Roehamad_Ali , Math has been requested. So let do maths.
Warning: Quick and dirty estimations with fudge-factor coefficients to simplify the damage calculation formula. Tested against observed values to be within +/- 10 of the observed tooltip damage. PM me if you want me to show more work.

Test subject: 300CP Redguard Sorcerer on PTS. No CP into Mighty, medium armor passives, sorc passives, or anything that modifies the damage tool-tip other than max stam and weapon damage.

Without any gear, any champion points assigned, and no weapon or weapon damage, we get this:

We will set uppercut 1191 damage as our base level for simplicity. Now lets keep weapon damage at 0 and add stamina. Adding +stam gear (hawks eye, darkstride etc), 64 attribute points into stamina (64*111=7,104 extra stam), 100 CP into green tree (another 3,735 stamina), redguard passive 10% stam, bound armaments 8% stam, and health/stam food (4500 stam).

So with over 42k Stamina, we get a 6.3k tooltip, over 5 times more than the damage we got with only 8k stamina and we have no weapon damage or weapon whatsoever. Note that this still gets halved by battle spirit.

Now lets look at weapon damage holding stamina constant. Removing all extra stam back to the base value (7958) and adding a gold nirnhoned greatsword.

Notice that with 0 weapon damage coming from sets or buffs, your weapon's damage becomes your weapon damage. For example, an iron weapon that has 198 damage will give you 198 weapon damage. Here are a few examples over a range of values.

As you can see, without the battle spirit de-buff, these are decent values for uppercut. Remember that this is without 12% extra damage from agility medium armor passive, without heavy weapons passive 8% and without empower (20%). If you wanted to run a gank build with 4000 weapon damage using all those buffs 7455*1.12*1.05*1.20=10520. So a buffed strike would hit for over 10k before armor mitigation.

Now lets put both of these values together. Lets take a typical stam build with about 35k stamina and 2.5k weapon damage.
Here is a redguard running food wearing Hundings + agility + masters/malestrom greatsword.

Lets breakdown the tooltip to see where the damage comes from.

With this common setup, more of the tooltip damage is contributed by the stamina pool than the weapon damage.
1191+4050+3864=9105

After battle spirit, the damage would be 9105/2=4553. If we had no battle spirit, and the effect your resource pool was capped at base value, you would have 1191+3864=5055. So the base damage of the skill has a much greater effect on damage (24% instead of 13%) which will help lesser used skills and also make hybrid builds viable again. Pelenial's Aptitude would be an amazing set with this cap system, no CP, and no battle spirit.

I haven't tested this for shields and heals but I expect similar results. Note that this is a multiple step solution, you also have to get disable the champion system so that skills can't be spammed indefinitely.

This is how you implement soft-caps again without the old way. If you stack 45k stamina you still have the benefit of having a huge stamina pool but it doesn't also give you monster damage as well. @Sypher This post works for your thread on damage.

This will not change anything. The core system should be changed. Healing should be separated from the damage.
Also I want to point that the agility passive from medium armor does not increase the damage with 12%, it increase the weapon damage value.

Now on your suggestion. If we just remove the resource pool from the calculation people will stack only damage and regen. Why do I need 40k pool if I have 4k regen? People will find the perfect balance between pool and regen and it will be even easier to build offensively with sustain because you just have to increase 2 stats, now you need 3. On top of that some classes will be super unbalanced with Pelenial's set. Can you imagine a stam Templar who heals as a magicka one and use stamina for rolling and DPS?

Yes I can imagine it. It's called a hybrid build and it was actually effective and extremely fun to run in 1.5 with proper softcaps. You are missing the part where there is no champion system so if you build for max damage, you will have less regen. Base regen values may have to be tweaked or capped like they used to be to encourage people to use sustain or utility sets.

Look at how low regen was capped at back in the day.

The cap is the equivalent of about 1300 regen for magicka/stamina. That is extremely low by today's standards but the game played really well like that.

Imagine the howls of indignation from the new generation of PvPers if ZOS reintroduced regen caps. "You mean I have to actually manage my resources and build for sustain instead of stacking damage to the roof?!?!?!? Oh the humanity!!!"

My suggestion of capping attributes effect on damage can't stand on its own. It has to be implemented with the rest of @RinaldoGandolphi 's suggestions.

In this case I agree. I didnt get that you wanted to have cap on everything. I am for the soft cap but PvE players will not accept it. They want to be powerful and to measure their numbers. Also I dont believe that ZoS will throw away the shity CP system because this is the only progression that they have. I understood a long time ago that ZoS sacrificed PvP for the PvE. They just did their main marketing based on PvP two and half years ago. But long time ago they oriented to casual PvE gamers.

Again I think we aren't understanding each other. PvE doesn't have to change at all. Let the carebears have their meaningless vertical progression treadmill.

Here are my proposed changes to Battle Spirit in PvP.

Attributes affect on damage, heals, sheilds are capped at base stat values (about 7k).
Base regens are reduced or max regen capped by X amount.
50% reduction to shields, heals, and damage is removed
Champion system disabled for all PvP
Nerf to bolt escape, dodge roll, and block reverted.
Poisons removed in PvP
Battle Spirit adds about 3k magicka/stam and 7k health to make up for what was stolen from us in 1.6 and locked behind the champion system.

This is all extremely doable and leaves all that fun stuff for PvE.

Bashev · July 2016

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

This post is to address how to implement the second point: Better, smarter soft-caps.

What happens if we reduce or remove the effect Stamina and Magicka Pools have on tooltip damage and then also remove battle spirit?

As per @Roehamad_Ali , Math has been requested. So let do maths.
Warning: Quick and dirty estimations with fudge-factor coefficients to simplify the damage calculation formula. Tested against observed values to be within +/- 10 of the observed tooltip damage. PM me if you want me to show more work.

Test subject: 300CP Redguard Sorcerer on PTS. No CP into Mighty, medium armor passives, sorc passives, or anything that modifies the damage tool-tip other than max stam and weapon damage.

Without any gear, any champion points assigned, and no weapon or weapon damage, we get this:

We will set uppercut 1191 damage as our base level for simplicity. Now lets keep weapon damage at 0 and add stamina. Adding +stam gear (hawks eye, darkstride etc), 64 attribute points into stamina (64*111=7,104 extra stam), 100 CP into green tree (another 3,735 stamina), redguard passive 10% stam, bound armaments 8% stam, and health/stam food (4500 stam).

So with over 42k Stamina, we get a 6.3k tooltip, over 5 times more than the damage we got with only 8k stamina and we have no weapon damage or weapon whatsoever. Note that this still gets halved by battle spirit.

Now lets look at weapon damage holding stamina constant. Removing all extra stam back to the base value (7958) and adding a gold nirnhoned greatsword.

Notice that with 0 weapon damage coming from sets or buffs, your weapon's damage becomes your weapon damage. For example, an iron weapon that has 198 damage will give you 198 weapon damage. Here are a few examples over a range of values.

As you can see, without the battle spirit de-buff, these are decent values for uppercut. Remember that this is without 12% extra damage from agility medium armor passive, without heavy weapons passive 8% and without empower (20%). If you wanted to run a gank build with 4000 weapon damage using all those buffs 7455*1.12*1.05*1.20=10520. So a buffed strike would hit for over 10k before armor mitigation.

Now lets put both of these values together. Lets take a typical stam build with about 35k stamina and 2.5k weapon damage.
Here is a redguard running food wearing Hundings + agility + masters/malestrom greatsword.

Lets breakdown the tooltip to see where the damage comes from.

With this common setup, more of the tooltip damage is contributed by the stamina pool than the weapon damage.
1191+4050+3864=9105

After battle spirit, the damage would be 9105/2=4553. If we had no battle spirit, and the effect your resource pool was capped at base value, you would have 1191+3864=5055. So the base damage of the skill has a much greater effect on damage (24% instead of 13%) which will help lesser used skills and also make hybrid builds viable again. Pelenial's Aptitude would be an amazing set with this cap system, no CP, and no battle spirit.

I haven't tested this for shields and heals but I expect similar results. Note that this is a multiple step solution, you also have to get disable the champion system so that skills can't be spammed indefinitely.

This is how you implement soft-caps again without the old way. If you stack 45k stamina you still have the benefit of having a huge stamina pool but it doesn't also give you monster damage as well. @Sypher This post works for your thread on damage.

This will not change anything. The core system should be changed. Healing should be separated from the damage.
Also I want to point that the agility passive from medium armor does not increase the damage with 12%, it increase the weapon damage value.

Now on your suggestion. If we just remove the resource pool from the calculation people will stack only damage and regen. Why do I need 40k pool if I have 4k regen? People will find the perfect balance between pool and regen and it will be even easier to build offensively with sustain because you just have to increase 2 stats, now you need 3. On top of that some classes will be super unbalanced with Pelenial's set. Can you imagine a stam Templar who heals as a magicka one and use stamina for rolling and DPS?

Yes I can imagine it. It's called a hybrid build and it was actually effective and extremely fun to run in 1.5 with proper softcaps. You are missing the part where there is no champion system so if you build for max damage, you will have less regen. Base regen values may have to be tweaked or capped like they used to be to encourage people to use sustain or utility sets.

Look at how low regen was capped at back in the day.

The cap is the equivalent of about 1300 regen for magicka/stamina. That is extremely low by today's standards but the game played really well like that.

Imagine the howls of indignation from the new generation of PvPers if ZOS reintroduced regen caps. "You mean I have to actually manage my resources and build for sustain instead of stacking damage to the roof?!?!?!? Oh the humanity!!!"

My suggestion of capping attributes effect on damage can't stand on its own. It has to be implemented with the rest of @RinaldoGandolphi 's suggestions.

In this case I agree. I didnt get that you wanted to have cap on everything. I am for the soft cap but PvE players will not accept it. They want to be powerful and to measure their numbers. Also I dont believe that ZoS will throw away the shity CP system because this is the only progression that they have. I understood a long time ago that ZoS sacrificed PvP for the PvE. They just did their main marketing based on PvP two and half years ago. But long time ago they oriented to casual PvE gamers.

Again I think we aren't understanding each other. PvE doesn't have to change at all. Let the carebears have their meaningless vertical progression treadmill.

Here are my proposed changes to Battle Spirit in PvP.
Attributes affect on damage, heals, sheilds are capped at base stat values (about 7k).

Base regens are reduced or max regen capped by X amount.

50% reduction to shields, heals, and damage is removed

Champion system disabled for all PvP

Nerf to bolt escape, dodge roll, and block reverted.

Poisons removed in PvP

Battle Spirit adds about 3k magicka/stam and 7k health to make up for what was stolen from us in 1.6 and locked behind the champion system.

This is all extremely doable and leaves all that fun stuff for PvE.

It will be too good to be true.

Armitas · July 2016

altemriel wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

altemriel wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The biggest problem currently with PVP is the lack of a softcap and hardcap system on stat pools, regen, crit, weapon damage, and spell damage. This lack of a capped system along with a Champion System has literately turned PVP into everyone runs around being very tanky, nearly infinite sustain, and top end damage. There is no "trade offs" currently present.

In most games, and even in the 1.x days. If you wanted to be extremely tanky, you had to give up damage. If you wanted to be high damage, you gave up sustain and survivability. If you wanted to be heavy sustain, you gave up damage and tankiness. This is also how it has worked in many other games.

However, the fix to these issues are very simple:

1. The Champion System needs to be disabled for every Cyrodiil campaign.
2. Hard and Softcaps need to be implemented in Battle Spirit that will only be in effect in Cyrodiil.
3. The damage reduction, shield reduction, and healing reduction in Cyrodiil reduced from 50% to 12%
4. The health bonus from Battle Spirit increased from 5,000 health to 7,500 health.
5. these poisons you introduced with Dark Brotherhood removed from PVP
6. Remove Dodge and Bolt Escape cost penalty
7. Remove Stam Regen while blocking nerf or add it as a 1 hand and shield passive

This would go a long way in fixing things. This would change the game from a game of "min max" to a game where your character is more fleshed out. This would also herald the return of class specs such as the Bowplar(the magic using, bow using two handed using hybrid Templar)

the amount of armor sets that would be viable in Cyrodiil would triple overnight. All the sets that are viable right now still would be, but the cap system means once you reach a certain point in one stat, it no longer makes sense to invest more there encouraging players to branch out what they invest resources in. Health also becomes important again as there will be room to invest here. This also allows you to indirectly tone down damage without nerfing particular skills as you can raise or lower caps as needed to get things in place.

the TTK in 1.X was perfectly fine. 1 shot builds existed back then, the only difference was they traded EVERYTHING for the ability to do that...if they failed they couldn't dodge roll forever or infinite sustain or what not..

Right now, PVP builds are all literally the same thing(High sustain, huge damage, very tanky(block heavy or shields) or dodge based, and high damage all wrapped into one) this essentially makes every build able to do everything equally well which makes the game really bland and 100% focused on min-max. You guys had the right idea back in the day where tank, healer, and dps roles were very well defined and each had clear strengths and weaknesses. Why move away from that?

There is a very very large part of your PVP community that left not long after 1.6(right around IC release) and they left because they saw the CP system and lack of caps was allowing every character to literally do everything(tank, dps, and heal) effectively...in essence completely ruining the tank, dps, healer tri-fecta that made pvp so much fun.

The CP system can be left in PVE as it makes sense to have some form of progression there, but in PVP progression could be based on alliance rank, adding more alliance ranks, and adding unique mounts, rewards, and unique costumes for achieving certain alliance ranks. The biggest balance issue is the lack of limits...after fixing DK in 1.5 that would have been as close to balance as things could have gotten as each class would have had defining strong and weak points but none of them would have been head and shoulders better then another...now we have 2-3 specs that are clearly superior to everything else.

the PVE part of this game is great, and the PVP prior to the CP system in this game was great too, we need to bring it back.

#MakePVPGreatAgain

I disagree with all your 7 points!!! DEFINITELLY NO!!!

It might be more helpful to mention why.

Armitas wrote: »

altemriel wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The biggest problem currently with PVP is the lack of a softcap and hardcap system on stat pools, regen, crit, weapon damage, and spell damage. This lack of a capped system along with a Champion System has literately turned PVP into everyone runs around being very tanky, nearly infinite sustain, and top end damage. There is no "trade offs" currently present.

In most games, and even in the 1.x days. If you wanted to be extremely tanky, you had to give up damage. If you wanted to be high damage, you gave up sustain and survivability. If you wanted to be heavy sustain, you gave up damage and tankiness. This is also how it has worked in many other games.

However, the fix to these issues are very simple:

1. The Champion System needs to be disabled for every Cyrodiil campaign.
2. Hard and Softcaps need to be implemented in Battle Spirit that will only be in effect in Cyrodiil.
3. The damage reduction, shield reduction, and healing reduction in Cyrodiil reduced from 50% to 12%
4. The health bonus from Battle Spirit increased from 5,000 health to 7,500 health.
5. these poisons you introduced with Dark Brotherhood removed from PVP
6. Remove Dodge and Bolt Escape cost penalty
7. Remove Stam Regen while blocking nerf or add it as a 1 hand and shield passive

This would go a long way in fixing things. This would change the game from a game of "min max" to a game where your character is more fleshed out. This would also herald the return of class specs such as the Bowplar(the magic using, bow using two handed using hybrid Templar)

the amount of armor sets that would be viable in Cyrodiil would triple overnight. All the sets that are viable right now still would be, but the cap system means once you reach a certain point in one stat, it no longer makes sense to invest more there encouraging players to branch out what they invest resources in. Health also becomes important again as there will be room to invest here. This also allows you to indirectly tone down damage without nerfing particular skills as you can raise or lower caps as needed to get things in place.

the TTK in 1.X was perfectly fine. 1 shot builds existed back then, the only difference was they traded EVERYTHING for the ability to do that...if they failed they couldn't dodge roll forever or infinite sustain or what not..

Right now, PVP builds are all literally the same thing(High sustain, huge damage, very tanky(block heavy or shields) or dodge based, and high damage all wrapped into one) this essentially makes every build able to do everything equally well which makes the game really bland and 100% focused on min-max. You guys had the right idea back in the day where tank, healer, and dps roles were very well defined and each had clear strengths and weaknesses. Why move away from that?

There is a very very large part of your PVP community that left not long after 1.6(right around IC release) and they left because they saw the CP system and lack of caps was allowing every character to literally do everything(tank, dps, and heal) effectively...in essence completely ruining the tank, dps, healer tri-fecta that made pvp so much fun.

The CP system can be left in PVE as it makes sense to have some form of progression there, but in PVP progression could be based on alliance rank, adding more alliance ranks, and adding unique mounts, rewards, and unique costumes for achieving certain alliance ranks. The biggest balance issue is the lack of limits...after fixing DK in 1.5 that would have been as close to balance as things could have gotten as each class would have had defining strong and weak points but none of them would have been head and shoulders better then another...now we have 2-3 specs that are clearly superior to everything else.

the PVE part of this game is great, and the PVP prior to the CP system in this game was great too, we need to bring it back.

#MakePVPGreatAgain

I disagree with all your 7 points!!! DEFINITELLY NO!!!

It might be more helpful to mention why.

1. what would that solve? there still would be differences between attribute points of various involved people
2. what would that solve? we do we need some artifical boundaries of the effects of our skills?
3. why that? why again some artifical boundaries to damage and healing?
.. basically the same for all the other points...

1 I don't see differences in attributes being a problem, attributes are a sacrificial system.
2. Because 60k wrecking blows with full sustain and survival is broken( not an exaggeration)

Sandman929 · July 2016

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO wrote: »

So some people want regen and damage resistance down, others want damage down....

Let me guess the problem derives from the fact that your personal favorite build is ineffective in pvp?

Right now the game works better balance wise than it has ever done since game start. Tanks are tanky and difficult to kill, both magicka and stamina can kill effectively if they do OTHER stuff than just do damage.

Since the early days of this game you have to THINK to kill enemies, you have to debuff their self healing or regen (now), you have to CC them to prevent them from recovering and so on WHILE you do damage. Else you are pretty useless.

If you just stand in the rear and *ploink* *ploink* then you are basically useless and YOU need to change, not the game.

Hmmm....I can't argue with the dramatic improvements to PvP tanking. I've never felt more viable in heavy armor than I have since DB. I've sympathized with complaints about ridiculous damage builds but I haven't really felt the effects of them because anything less than 25K resistances and health just isn't how I play.
It's possible the game is more balanced than people give credit for, but they're just too accustomed to the idea that leather and cloth equal protection.