Fix PVP Balance

RinaldoGandolphi · July 2016

The biggest problem currently with PVP is the lack of a softcap and hardcap system on stat pools, regen, crit, weapon damage, and spell damage. This lack of a capped system along with a Champion System has literately turned PVP into everyone runs around being very tanky, nearly infinite sustain, and top end damage. There is no "trade offs" currently present.

In most games, and even in the 1.x days. If you wanted to be extremely tanky, you had to give up damage. If you wanted to be high damage, you gave up sustain and survivability. If you wanted to be heavy sustain, you gave up damage and tankiness. This is also how it has worked in many other games.

However, the fix to these issues are very simple:

1. The Champion System needs to be disabled for every Cyrodiil campaign.
2. Hard and Softcaps need to be implemented in Battle Spirit that will only be in effect in Cyrodiil.
3. The damage reduction, shield reduction, and healing reduction in Cyrodiil reduced from 50% to 12%
4. The health bonus from Battle Spirit increased from 5,000 health to 7,500 health.
5. these poisons you introduced with Dark Brotherhood removed from PVP
6. Remove Dodge and Bolt Escape cost penalty
7. Remove Stam Regen while blocking nerf or add it as a 1 hand and shield passive

This would go a long way in fixing things. This would change the game from a game of "min max" to a game where your character is more fleshed out. This would also herald the return of class specs such as the Bowplar(the magic using, bow using two handed using hybrid Templar)

the amount of armor sets that would be viable in Cyrodiil would triple overnight. All the sets that are viable right now still would be, but the cap system means once you reach a certain point in one stat, it no longer makes sense to invest more there encouraging players to branch out what they invest resources in. Health also becomes important again as there will be room to invest here. This also allows you to indirectly tone down damage without nerfing particular skills as you can raise or lower caps as needed to get things in place.

the TTK in 1.X was perfectly fine. 1 shot builds existed back then, the only difference was they traded EVERYTHING for the ability to do that...if they failed they couldn't dodge roll forever or infinite sustain or what not..

Right now, PVP builds are all literally the same thing(High sustain, huge damage, very tanky(block heavy or shields) or dodge based, and high damage all wrapped into one) this essentially makes every build able to do everything equally well which makes the game really bland and 100% focused on min-max. You guys had the right idea back in the day where tank, healer, and dps roles were very well defined and each had clear strengths and weaknesses. Why move away from that?

There is a very very large part of your PVP community that left not long after 1.6(right around IC release) and they left because they saw the CP system and lack of caps was allowing every character to literally do everything(tank, dps, and heal) effectively...in essence completely ruining the tank, dps, healer tri-fecta that made pvp so much fun.

The CP system can be left in PVE as it makes sense to have some form of progression there, but in PVP progression could be based on alliance rank, adding more alliance ranks, and adding unique mounts, rewards, and unique costumes for achieving certain alliance ranks. The biggest balance issue is the lack of limits...after fixing DK in 1.5 that would have been as close to balance as things could have gotten as each class would have had defining strong and weak points but none of them would have been head and shoulders better then another...now we have 2-3 specs that are clearly superior to everything else.

the PVE part of this game is great, and the PVP prior to the CP system in this game was great too, we need to bring it back.

#MakePVPGreatAgain

[Edited for Petitions and Protests]

Zheg · July 2016

I'd counter that and say the biggest problem with pvp is the developers. Even if I squint my eyes and try really hard, I cannot see a vision for what pvp should be like and a focal point to balance around. They seem to balance by trying to address one fiasco, create new ones while doing so, and then address the new fiascos 3+ months later while adding to the list. Everything is reactionary - and delayed at that, I see little to no proactive fine-tuning towards a goal. The CP system doesn't help with that current balance mantra, but they absolutely could balance with the CP in place - so long as they put in the time to have a vision for what balance should look like overall and what it should look like for each class. Remember when wrobel did his infamous house thing for templars? If you had told me before then that the vision for templars was to be able to stand inside their house and have it be bad for enemies, I would have given you a very, very confused face. We still don't have a good grasp of what they want the classes to do and what roles they want them to excel at.

Armitas · July 2016

This would be a vast improvement. It has gotten so bad that we are asking YOU to nerf US. I spoke with a guy not even built for rolling that said he could roll 17x consecutively. 17x rolls with clearly infinite sustain, 4.5k vigor ticks and someone even got a 60k WB in the sewers but it's not just stamina. Magicka scaling with shields and healing is almost as bad. Most games have glass canons and exhaust tanks, we have ethereal cannons, invisi-cannons, and Force Field cannons. With the exception of maybe the mDK there are no longer any conditions in which damage, sustain and survival interfere with each other instead they bolster each other.

At least think about putting in some soft caps ZOS its really getting out of control.

SubtleHate · July 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

1. The Champion System needs to be disabled for every Cyrodiil campaign.

That's literally never going to happen. Dream big, but be realistic please.

Iyas · July 2016

The biggest problem currently with PVP is lag. Nothing else. Dont care about balance if I cant even play in primetime

Robbmrp · July 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The biggest problem currently with PVP is the lack of a softcap and hardcap system on stat pools, regen, crit, weapon damage, and spell damage. This lack of a capped system along with a Champion System has literately turned PVP into everyone runs around being very tanky, nearly infinite sustain, and top end damage. There is no "trade offs" currently present.

However, the fix to these issues are very simple:

1. The Champion System needs to be disabled for every Cyrodiil campaign.
2. Hard and Softcaps need to be implemented in Battle Spirit that will only be in effect in Cyrodiil.
3. The damage reduction, shield reduction, and healing reduction in Cyrodiil reduced from 50% to 12%
4. The health bonus from Battle Spirit increased from 5,000 health to 7,500 health.
5. these poisons you introduced with Dark Brotherhood removed from PVP
6. Remove Dodge and Bolt Escape cost penalty
7. Remove Stam Regen while blocking nerf or add it as a 1 hand and shield passive

This would go a long way in fixing things. This would change the game from a game of "min max" to a game where your character is more fleshed out. This would also herald the return of class specs such as the Bowplar(the magic using, bow using two handed using hybrid Templar)

the amount of armor sets that would be viable in Cyrodiil would triple overnight. All the sets that are viable right now still would be, but the cap system means once you reach a certain point in one stat, it no longer makes sense to invest more there encouraging players to branch out what they invest resources in. Health also becomes important again as there will be room to invest here. This also allows you to indirectly tone down damage without nerfing particular skills as you can raise or lower caps as needed to get things in place.

#MakePVPGreatAgain

What your describing is basically the Azura Campaign with changes. The main reason I went to Azura was to not have to deal with the players bolded above. Even now, we have to deal with the tankiest of tanks doing a lot of damage in there. Some builds are extremely difficult to kill while being able to put out a lot of damage which shouldn't be possible without Emp buffs. As you mentioned, it should be the best of one area, not both. You can't be running around in all tank gear and do massive amounts of damage(Emperor is the exception).

Changes definately need to be made. I highlighted the areas you listed where I think could make a ton of difference to Azura as well as other campaigns. Fixes 3, 4 & 6 however would make things worse. Adding Soft/Hard caps would help a lot with the existing battle spirit 50% reductions. If it needs to be toned down afterwards, that could be looked at then but going from 50% to 12% is too big of a jump, maybe 50-30 or 25%. The existing health buffs we get are plenty as with purple food you can still put all points into magicka and maintain a 20k health level. If you want more health, get your Home keeps back or crown an Emp. Stamina and magicka builds can cast dodge/bolt plenty as it is now.

Poisons should be left in PVP as they are a great addition to the game. Are they OP? Of course. They should be toned down by 25% and would still work really well. I am NOT a fan of the Debuff/Buff poisons. Just like builds, poisons should only do Debuffs. If you want buffs take a potion.....

If they could make those changes, PVP in any campaign would be a blast. And with the no CP Campaigns, that would reduce a lot of lag with a lot less calculations being done.

RinaldoGandolphi · July 2016

SubtleHate wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

1. The Champion System needs to be disabled for every Cyrodiil campaign.

That's literally never going to happen. Dream big, but be realistic please.

I wouldn't be so sure...Azura's Star just keeps getting more popular. It also very easy for ZOS to do as they have already done it with Azura.

The Champion system works very well for PVE. For the most part the DPS, Tank, Healer tri-fecta remains intact are are required for most of the endgame content like 12 man trials like Vet SO, Vet MOL, etc.

In PVP however this tri-fecta is completely broken because of the CP and lack of caps. The way the healing and damage reductions work along with uncapped resources, damage and regen properties every toon in PVP is able to perform all 3 specs(damage, tank, and heal) very well without giving up anything and it completely upsets the entire balance of the class system.

PVP and PVE are two completely different games, and ZOS needs to stop trying to balance them both with the same rules. The majority of PVE specs and builds are not viable in Cyrodiil, and the majority of PVP builds are not viable in end game PVE content. The final step is remove the CP system from Cyrodiil this will unchain PVE and PVP.

The way the CP system is set up in PVE its ok because:
1. folks need to invest their toons into a specific role be it, DPS, heal, or tanking. They can't do all 3 well and be viable top end at end game content.
2. Max damage low sustain builds MUST have group support in the form of Luminious Shards, Mystic Orbs, Elemental Drain, etc in order to be competitive in trials and such.
3. ZOS can counteract these huge damage numbers by giving these bosses huge amounts of resistances and HP...look at how much health Manticora has in Vet SO...ZOS can very easily scale the content of these things as CP cap rises, but they can't do that in Cyrodiil because it doesn't work because the game and battle spirit makes it fundamentally different.

Removing the CP System from Cyrodiil, making the suggested changes above to Battle Spirit, and putting a soft and ahrd cap system back in place will not only vastly increase build diversity(Hybrid builds will return), but the TTK(Time to kill) in Cyrodiil will be brought into line at an acceptable level(the TTK in 1.5 was pretty much perfect), it also clearly defines the 3 major roles (DPS, tank, and healer) and would allow ZOS to base balance decisions based on those 3 roles. Right now with the uncapped stats everything is as clear as mud in terms of balance. This has to change.

Yes i am well beyond the CP cap for my toons, yes i worked very hard for all those CP....but its glaring obvious that either the CP needs to be fundamentally changed(Damage, healing, regen, crit, cost reduction etc need to be changed to utility bonuses) - this will infuriate PVE players, or we just remove this impossible to balance around system from Cyrodiil and make things more streamlined.

the changes to the Battle Spirit in PVP on IC release has proved this simply doesn't work. when they raise the CP cap again, what are they gonna do? reduce damage, healing and shields by 70% in hopes of countering power creep? It doesn't work now, so why would it work again?

There was far less complaints about the game outside of lag and OP DK's during 1.5....had they just tweaked DK's just a little but...1.5 was perfect...

PVP needs to be somewhat separate from PVE. Sure the changing of class skills are going to have an impact on PVE, and that might now be avoidable, but what can be done is unhinging the Champion System from Cyrodiil because in PVE its somewhat balanced as ZOS can just crank up difficulty on PVE mobs, but in PVP they can't do that.

A different progression system needs to be put in place for PVP tied to Allaince Rank that replaces the Champion System in Cyrodiil..leave the CP system in for PVE, and put in a different system for PVP based on Alliance rank and levels with AP.

by adding in this system PVP will not be forced to play PVE content they don't want to, and they won't be at a disadvantage to someone who grinds mobs in PVE zones. The Battle Spirit changes have not worked. Infact they have proven the CS in its current form is too unbalanced for PVP, but works ok in PVE...they need to be unhinged, only then can we step forward and bring about an AP based system of progression that doesn't add damage, resource regen, cost reduction, etc. Instead we can have an AP based system that gives bonus AP gains, Access to special siege, bonus status effects to siege weapons, special allaince themed weapons and gear that give bonuses the higher you are on the leaderboard...there is a plethora of things they can do that can make pvp fun, interesting, and progression based without tying them into make your character a tank, dps, and healer all in one.

In PVE if your OP they can simply make mobs tougher and hit harder to nerf you back to reality, in PVP they can';t do this...this is why they need to remove it, and bring back a cap system...this will allow them to fine tune TTK and bring damage, healing, and tanking to acceptable levels without having to nerf everything all the time like the Battle Spirit changes and dodge rolling, Bolt Escape, and Blocking regen nerfs have done to the game.

Rohamad_Ali · July 2016

Remove the damage multipliers from attributes . Reel in the insane damage numbers and remove battle spirit cap on damages .

@Yolokin_Swagonborn

Do that srs mathy thing again .

RinaldoGandolphi · July 2016

Lots of good constructive feedback coming here, keep it coming!

Derra · July 2016

No, no - let me think about it... No. Nope. Nopest.

If you were to implement a softcap system on the current game you´d eliminate medium and light armor in one go. While buffing redguard, rune focus, siphoning attacks, honor of the dead, DKs (mag might need it - stam not) and everything else that gives flat regen values not associated with normal reg.

It´s not as simple and a rework of the champion system is far more likely than a removal with the associated problems imo.

Ishammael · July 2016

I agree in principle.

Problem is, gear sets and passive changes have been built around the new norms. Perfect example is the new Amberplasm set: 300 stam AND magicka regen for a 5-pc. A year ago, that would have been INSANE. Now it's only kinda good because.you have to give up damage for it. With CPs, Armor, and class passives that's worth 450regen, minimum.

Point is: game needs a complete OVERHAUL for balance. The things you have suggested would be a good starting point. But implemented alone, they are both not enough and too much.

Daggerfall_Bones · July 2016

Seems people yearn for the metas of old.

Armitas wrote: »

This would be a vast improvement. It has gotten so bad that we are asking YOU to nerf US. I spoke with a guy not even built for rolling that said he could roll 17x consecutively. 17x rolls with clearly infinite sustain, 4.5k vigor ticks and someone even got a 60k WB in the sewers but it's not just stamina. Magicka scaling with shields and healing is almost as bad. Most games have glass canons and exhaust tanks, we have ethereal cannons, invisi-cannons, and Force Field cannons. With the exception of maybe the mDK there are no longer any conditions in which damage, sustain and survival interfere with each other instead they bolster each other.

At least think about putting in some soft caps ZOS its really getting out of control.

The permarollers usually dip when the fight stops going their way. Peel off and finish his friends. The heavy tanks, root and range them, just take longer to die save them for last. The biggest problem I have is with crates and woodpiles adding 1000% damage mitigation. I would like to see more objects like the towers, walls and doors be subject to destruction but with player abilities. The townsfolk could then restack the piles and place new crates. The capture towns next patch are a good addition. I run with a 10 to 16 size group just about every night. We win some and lose some but movement and coordination always give you a fighting chance.

Sanct16 · July 2016

@Iyas

Why don't you play on Azura? It is literally 60 ping for 99% of the time.

Koolio · July 2016

I don't like the idea of CP being removed from PvP. Ps4 release I went into PVP to check it out. Saw exactly how strong people could be compared to my level 30 at the time. Since then I have gotten every skill point passive available reached CP cap full gold gear( in multiple sets) just to be as strong as I remember from my first time lol. Now I actually feel strong. Kill lots of people and love it. Now you want to send me back to the Stone Age?

_Chaos · July 2016

Koolio wrote: »

I don't like the idea of CP being removed from PvP. Ps4 release I went into PVP to check it out. Saw exactly how strong people could be compared to my level 30 at the time. Since then I have gotten every skill point passive available reached CP cap full gold gear( in multiple sets) just to be as strong as I remember from my first time lol. Now I actually feel strong. Kill lots of people and love it. Now you want to send me back to the Stone Age?

Holy *** it's Koolio the OG EP Pug Hearder!

Solariken · July 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

1. The Champion System needs to be disabled for every Cyrodiil campaign.
2. Hard and Softcaps need to be implemented in Battle Spirit that will only be in effect in Cyrodiil.
3. The damage reduction, shield reduction, and healing reduction in Cyrodiil reduced from 50% to 12%
4. The health bonus from Battle Spirit increased from 5,000 health to 7,500 health.
5. these poisons you introduced with Dark Brotherhood removed from PVP
6. Remove Dodge and Bolt Escape cost penalty
7. Remove Stam Regen while blocking nerf or add it as a 1 hand and shield passive

I'm not sure how you arrived at the specifics, but agree with your overall vision. Here are my thoughts:

1. Yes - CP is game-breaking for PvP.

2. No soft caps, but remove damage scaling from max mag/stam. This alone would curb potential damage output tremendously and force players to make real sacrifices to achieve greater damage output. It would also allow for hybrid builds.

3. The damage reduction should not be higher than 10%. This value can be tweaked though for balance and is the only form of soft cap I currently support.

4. 7500 seems arbitrary, but this value is the easiest variable to tweak for balance.

5. I love the idea of a poison system, but ZOS really fukt this up. They need to tone them down and REMOVE THE SELF BUFFS FROM POISON PROCS.

6. I like the increasing cost mechanic, but think it ramps up too steeply. Tone it down.

7. Completely reinstate regen while blocking and add an increasing cost mechanic a la dodge roll.

Serjustin19 · July 2016

+1

However I disagree with 1 thing. No offense. I don't do pve at all. Always PvP. But I have 400+ CP. Since I don't do PVE at all since. PVE don't intrest me at all.

For those who feel same way as I do and who has CP also. Since I like having my CP in PvP and maybe other PvPers also. How will this no CP change work for us PvPers who want to keep our CP and use them. Without going into PvE? How will this work? How will this be fair?

But I like the rest of your posts also.

Koolio · July 2016

Holy *** it's Koolio the OG EP Pug Hearder![/quote]

I don't think you have the right person.

Lokey0024 · July 2016

I think reversing the way CP scale as you invest points, by the lower amount of points the slower the amount increases to once you invested around 60 points it starts scaling very quickly. That way you cant have +10% healing on a high dmg build. Or 15% stamina and magika class midigation with 15% crit resist/15% dot resist.

You would have to choose wisely where to put points and you could choose alot of one kind of resist or weaker resist to all. Or higher dmg or higher healing etc.

Amdar_Godkiller · July 2016

Simple solution: remove regen as a racial passive and have all armor provide some critical resistance. Poisons are
awesome. Don't need any changes there.

Sandman929 · July 2016

Iyas wrote: »

The biggest problem currently with PVP is lag. Nothing else. Dont care about balance if I cant even play in primetime

I'm mostly on this train of thought. There's nothing I can't deal with if I can just stay in the game and not get booted everytime a wall comes down (or goes up).
As for the zerg-shaming, I don't even mind the zergs...the servers that can't handle the zergs, I mind.

Derra · July 2016

Sanct16 wrote: »

@Iyas

Why don't you play on Azura? It is literally 60 ping for 99% of the time.

The game isn´t balanced for nonCP ("balanced"

)

It´s atleast even more solo/duo unfriendly than normal campaigns cause dmg takes a huge hit (~30 to 40% less) while HP are only 10 to 15% lower than on cp campaigns. This results in already drawn out fights being even longer, boring and the risk of getting adds is increased aswell.
We´ve tried a couple of times to play there and with what we do it was never fun.

altemriel · July 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The biggest problem currently with PVP is the lack of a softcap and hardcap system on stat pools, regen, crit, weapon damage, and spell damage. This lack of a capped system along with a Champion System has literately turned PVP into everyone runs around being very tanky, nearly infinite sustain, and top end damage. There is no "trade offs" currently present.

In most games, and even in the 1.x days. If you wanted to be extremely tanky, you had to give up damage. If you wanted to be high damage, you gave up sustain and survivability. If you wanted to be heavy sustain, you gave up damage and tankiness. This is also how it has worked in many other games.

However, the fix to these issues are very simple:

1. The Champion System needs to be disabled for every Cyrodiil campaign.
2. Hard and Softcaps need to be implemented in Battle Spirit that will only be in effect in Cyrodiil.
3. The damage reduction, shield reduction, and healing reduction in Cyrodiil reduced from 50% to 12%
4. The health bonus from Battle Spirit increased from 5,000 health to 7,500 health.
5. these poisons you introduced with Dark Brotherhood removed from PVP
6. Remove Dodge and Bolt Escape cost penalty
7. Remove Stam Regen while blocking nerf or add it as a 1 hand and shield passive

This would go a long way in fixing things. This would change the game from a game of "min max" to a game where your character is more fleshed out. This would also herald the return of class specs such as the Bowplar(the magic using, bow using two handed using hybrid Templar)

the amount of armor sets that would be viable in Cyrodiil would triple overnight. All the sets that are viable right now still would be, but the cap system means once you reach a certain point in one stat, it no longer makes sense to invest more there encouraging players to branch out what they invest resources in. Health also becomes important again as there will be room to invest here. This also allows you to indirectly tone down damage without nerfing particular skills as you can raise or lower caps as needed to get things in place.

the TTK in 1.X was perfectly fine. 1 shot builds existed back then, the only difference was they traded EVERYTHING for the ability to do that...if they failed they couldn't dodge roll forever or infinite sustain or what not..

Right now, PVP builds are all literally the same thing(High sustain, huge damage, very tanky(block heavy or shields) or dodge based, and high damage all wrapped into one) this essentially makes every build able to do everything equally well which makes the game really bland and 100% focused on min-max. You guys had the right idea back in the day where tank, healer, and dps roles were very well defined and each had clear strengths and weaknesses. Why move away from that?

There is a very very large part of your PVP community that left not long after 1.6(right around IC release) and they left because they saw the CP system and lack of caps was allowing every character to literally do everything(tank, dps, and heal) effectively...in essence completely ruining the tank, dps, healer tri-fecta that made pvp so much fun.

The CP system can be left in PVE as it makes sense to have some form of progression there, but in PVP progression could be based on alliance rank, adding more alliance ranks, and adding unique mounts, rewards, and unique costumes for achieving certain alliance ranks. The biggest balance issue is the lack of limits...after fixing DK in 1.5 that would have been as close to balance as things could have gotten as each class would have had defining strong and weak points but none of them would have been head and shoulders better then another...now we have 2-3 specs that are clearly superior to everything else.

the PVE part of this game is great, and the PVP prior to the CP system in this game was great too, we need to bring it back.

#MakePVPGreatAgain

I disagree with all your 7 points!!! DEFINITELLY NO!!!

Armitas · July 2016

altemriel wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The biggest problem currently with PVP is the lack of a softcap and hardcap system on stat pools, regen, crit, weapon damage, and spell damage. This lack of a capped system along with a Champion System has literately turned PVP into everyone runs around being very tanky, nearly infinite sustain, and top end damage. There is no "trade offs" currently present.

In most games, and even in the 1.x days. If you wanted to be extremely tanky, you had to give up damage. If you wanted to be high damage, you gave up sustain and survivability. If you wanted to be heavy sustain, you gave up damage and tankiness. This is also how it has worked in many other games.

However, the fix to these issues are very simple:

1. The Champion System needs to be disabled for every Cyrodiil campaign.
2. Hard and Softcaps need to be implemented in Battle Spirit that will only be in effect in Cyrodiil.
3. The damage reduction, shield reduction, and healing reduction in Cyrodiil reduced from 50% to 12%
4. The health bonus from Battle Spirit increased from 5,000 health to 7,500 health.
5. these poisons you introduced with Dark Brotherhood removed from PVP
6. Remove Dodge and Bolt Escape cost penalty
7. Remove Stam Regen while blocking nerf or add it as a 1 hand and shield passive

This would go a long way in fixing things. This would change the game from a game of "min max" to a game where your character is more fleshed out. This would also herald the return of class specs such as the Bowplar(the magic using, bow using two handed using hybrid Templar)

the amount of armor sets that would be viable in Cyrodiil would triple overnight. All the sets that are viable right now still would be, but the cap system means once you reach a certain point in one stat, it no longer makes sense to invest more there encouraging players to branch out what they invest resources in. Health also becomes important again as there will be room to invest here. This also allows you to indirectly tone down damage without nerfing particular skills as you can raise or lower caps as needed to get things in place.

the TTK in 1.X was perfectly fine. 1 shot builds existed back then, the only difference was they traded EVERYTHING for the ability to do that...if they failed they couldn't dodge roll forever or infinite sustain or what not..

Right now, PVP builds are all literally the same thing(High sustain, huge damage, very tanky(block heavy or shields) or dodge based, and high damage all wrapped into one) this essentially makes every build able to do everything equally well which makes the game really bland and 100% focused on min-max. You guys had the right idea back in the day where tank, healer, and dps roles were very well defined and each had clear strengths and weaknesses. Why move away from that?

There is a very very large part of your PVP community that left not long after 1.6(right around IC release) and they left because they saw the CP system and lack of caps was allowing every character to literally do everything(tank, dps, and heal) effectively...in essence completely ruining the tank, dps, healer tri-fecta that made pvp so much fun.

The CP system can be left in PVE as it makes sense to have some form of progression there, but in PVP progression could be based on alliance rank, adding more alliance ranks, and adding unique mounts, rewards, and unique costumes for achieving certain alliance ranks. The biggest balance issue is the lack of limits...after fixing DK in 1.5 that would have been as close to balance as things could have gotten as each class would have had defining strong and weak points but none of them would have been head and shoulders better then another...now we have 2-3 specs that are clearly superior to everything else.

the PVE part of this game is great, and the PVP prior to the CP system in this game was great too, we need to bring it back.

#MakePVPGreatAgain

I disagree with all your 7 points!!! DEFINITELLY NO!!!

It might be more helpful to mention why.

Xeven · July 2016

You can't disable the champion system brah. Give everyone 501 CP in Cyrodiil.

You also can't remove the dodge and bolt escape penalty. Have you forgotten how terrible it was?

I like the idea. Don't like most of your "solutions".

Maztiax · July 2016

Zenimax isn't going to fix PvP because their target audience is PvE.

Don't like it? Play a different game.

Sandman929 · July 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The biggest problem currently with PVP is the lack of a softcap and hardcap system on stat pools, regen, crit, weapon damage, and spell damage. This lack of a capped system along with a Champion System has literately turned PVP into everyone runs around being very tanky, nearly infinite sustain, and top end damage. There is no "trade offs" currently present.

In most games, and even in the 1.x days. If you wanted to be extremely tanky, you had to give up damage. If you wanted to be high damage, you gave up sustain and survivability. If you wanted to be heavy sustain, you gave up damage and tankiness. This is also how it has worked in many other games.

#MakePVPGreatAgain

I disagree that the fault lies with the Champion Point system. Mitigation scaling with the same attribute as damage means that nothing is sacrificed from offense to gain defense. Making a Health investment a necessary part of damage mitigation, whether it's shield strength, shield duration, dodge rolling, dodge chance, buffing, debuffing...anything that isn't direct damage should scale with max health.
Pure builds, stamina or magicka, would be handicapped against balanced builds because the balanced builds would have better mitigation and sustain.

altemriel · July 2016

Armitas wrote: »

altemriel wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The biggest problem currently with PVP is the lack of a softcap and hardcap system on stat pools, regen, crit, weapon damage, and spell damage. This lack of a capped system along with a Champion System has literately turned PVP into everyone runs around being very tanky, nearly infinite sustain, and top end damage. There is no "trade offs" currently present.

In most games, and even in the 1.x days. If you wanted to be extremely tanky, you had to give up damage. If you wanted to be high damage, you gave up sustain and survivability. If you wanted to be heavy sustain, you gave up damage and tankiness. This is also how it has worked in many other games.

However, the fix to these issues are very simple:

1. The Champion System needs to be disabled for every Cyrodiil campaign.
2. Hard and Softcaps need to be implemented in Battle Spirit that will only be in effect in Cyrodiil.
3. The damage reduction, shield reduction, and healing reduction in Cyrodiil reduced from 50% to 12%
4. The health bonus from Battle Spirit increased from 5,000 health to 7,500 health.
5. these poisons you introduced with Dark Brotherhood removed from PVP
6. Remove Dodge and Bolt Escape cost penalty
7. Remove Stam Regen while blocking nerf or add it as a 1 hand and shield passive

This would go a long way in fixing things. This would change the game from a game of "min max" to a game where your character is more fleshed out. This would also herald the return of class specs such as the Bowplar(the magic using, bow using two handed using hybrid Templar)

the amount of armor sets that would be viable in Cyrodiil would triple overnight. All the sets that are viable right now still would be, but the cap system means once you reach a certain point in one stat, it no longer makes sense to invest more there encouraging players to branch out what they invest resources in. Health also becomes important again as there will be room to invest here. This also allows you to indirectly tone down damage without nerfing particular skills as you can raise or lower caps as needed to get things in place.

the TTK in 1.X was perfectly fine. 1 shot builds existed back then, the only difference was they traded EVERYTHING for the ability to do that...if they failed they couldn't dodge roll forever or infinite sustain or what not..

Right now, PVP builds are all literally the same thing(High sustain, huge damage, very tanky(block heavy or shields) or dodge based, and high damage all wrapped into one) this essentially makes every build able to do everything equally well which makes the game really bland and 100% focused on min-max. You guys had the right idea back in the day where tank, healer, and dps roles were very well defined and each had clear strengths and weaknesses. Why move away from that?

There is a very very large part of your PVP community that left not long after 1.6(right around IC release) and they left because they saw the CP system and lack of caps was allowing every character to literally do everything(tank, dps, and heal) effectively...in essence completely ruining the tank, dps, healer tri-fecta that made pvp so much fun.

The CP system can be left in PVE as it makes sense to have some form of progression there, but in PVP progression could be based on alliance rank, adding more alliance ranks, and adding unique mounts, rewards, and unique costumes for achieving certain alliance ranks. The biggest balance issue is the lack of limits...after fixing DK in 1.5 that would have been as close to balance as things could have gotten as each class would have had defining strong and weak points but none of them would have been head and shoulders better then another...now we have 2-3 specs that are clearly superior to everything else.

the PVE part of this game is great, and the PVP prior to the CP system in this game was great too, we need to bring it back.

#MakePVPGreatAgain

I disagree with all your 7 points!!! DEFINITELLY NO!!!

It might be more helpful to mention why.

1. what would that solve? there still would be differences between attribute points of various involved people
2. what would that solve? we do we need some artifical boundaries of the effects of our skills?
3. why that? why again some artifical boundaries to damage and healing?
.. basically the same for all the other points...

asneakybanana · July 2016

I was going to make a similar thread last night. I agree with a lot of your suggestions however, If damage reduction goes to 12% instead of 50% you are going to see people hitting 30k prox dets, 25k soul tethers, 25k dizzying swings, 30k incaps and all sorts of stupid damage. While I would love to see this while running solo on a DK doing a max damage dragon leap build or on my prox tether NB as someone who runs in a 12 man from time to time as well I can just imagine how broken that would be with the way roots are right now and the barrier nerf. If they were to reduce the battle spirit changes I would say going to 20-25% and reverting the changes to retreating maneuvers w/ them basically being instantly broken and the changes to barrier in order to have some basic way to mitigate the damage and stay mobile.

Another change I would like to see is with negate. While last past it was way too weak as it currently stands if you have 5 or 6 sorcs just layering negates on a battlefield it is basically impossible to counter. Healers cannot heal in negate, it cannot be broken out of, and there is no way to have another sorc negate on top of it as was the case in 1.5 and before. Negate also makes it almost a must for people to play stam as stam is basically not affected at all by negate, they can still heal, they can still aoe, and they can still cc people. I would love to see negate go back to the way it was in 1.5 where instead of just instantly removing ground effects and then having ground effects be able to be cast again, it would permanently remove the ground effects in its aoe however, you can CC break out of it and cast non ground based heals and counter the negate with a negate of your own. I think it would be interesting if this change was implemented and the damage/healing was left in the game but reduced by 70% percent or so.

One last "meta" change I would like to see is bringing back dynamic ultimate. While I wouldnt like to see quite the amount of ultimate generation as we saw back in 1.5 where every single initial hit or tick of damage gave you 1 ultimate point as well as 1 ultimate point for every crit as well as 1 ultimate point for every tick of healing, I would like to see potentially 1 ultimate point for every initial hit on a player. So you have 20 players running you down and you cast a fire ring that hits all 20 players you would get 20 ultimate regardless of whether or not you have dots ticking afterwards or get crits you would only get 20 ultimate from that cast and then would need to cast another skill in order to generate more ultimate. As for healers I think they should get ultimate from every tick of a heal since they are only hitting 6 people with heals instead of up to 60 that a dps can hit. This system wouldnt really affect 1v1 pvp as it would be extremely similar ultimate gen to what they are getting now, in large group pvp players would be penalized by stacking up since they would be giving the enemy more ultimate per cast.

On a smaller balance scale I would like to see magicka brought into line with stamina. As it is stamina blows magicka builds out of the water in small scale because of survivability, damage, and mobility. A magicka character simply has no way to get away from a stamina player, the stamina player just has to use a gap closer over and over which costs a lot less % of their stam bar than a magicka player using streak or sprinting away. Stamina also has built in major expedition from multiple skills where as magicka does not. Although I dont want to see stamina nerfed down to magicka I would like to see magicka buffed up to where stamina is, whether thats giving them more survivabilty by reverting the shield nerf and blocking regen nerf, or giving them more damage and escapability something needs to be done.

Just my 2 cents though and im sure zos will never even consider any of those changes.

Father_X_Zombie · July 2016

I agree 100%

TooskSG · July 2016

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who feels this way. PvP has been a joke since 1.6. ESO PvP atm is like Little Caesar's pizza: fun when you're drunk and dont give a ***, but not something you'd take seriously.