Incapacitating strike too strong?

juhasman · July 2016

Like in the title I think this ulti is too strong. I am able to jump on someone with ambush and then hit with incap for 18k then 5 seconds later I am doing the same to the other person. This ulti have stun, increase dmg by 20% few seconds after use, applies major defile and cost 50 ultimate nand deals a LOT of dmg. Is it just me who thinks something is not right here?

Dracane · July 2016

Yes Juhas my man, it is.
That was clear since DB

But that's the typical nightblade treament: They get everything in the easiest way and in 1 package. No other class gets things as easy as Nightblades.

Minor berserk for slotting something, 8% magicka for slotting something, scarily easy access to major berserk and the list goes on.
Incap has low cost, highest single target damage on hit, healing reduction and 20% damage boost. Please, NB is not a balanced class. That should be clear by now.

It's the devs favorite, you can see it clearly. No class has it so easy.

Vythri · July 2016

I think Nightblade's seem too strong and easy in general because they are probably the most balanced class. If anything, all of their skills need to stay the same, and ZOS needs to work toward getting all of the other classes on the same level as far as functionality, and ability to play almost any playstyle effectively.

Tryxus · July 2016

Too strong? Nah. It would only be too strong if it would give us a 3rd skill bar and we could use Incap from range multiple times until our Ultimate runs out...

Rohamad_Ali · July 2016

Are you running any impenetrable or crit hit resist ? Most PvP players are and those numbers are rarely generated . How about a run down of your gear before we go further .

juhasman · July 2016

Tryxus wrote: »

Too strong? Nah. It would only be too strong if it would give us a 3rd skill bar and we could use Incap from range multiple times until our Ultimate runs out...

What would You need that 3rd bar for since Nb have soo good skills and passives he barely need to swap on 2nd bar. And Since You're talking about overload i think it's much easier to counter then Incap. Not mentioning I can stealth to somene in cloak and then heavy atack , incap , executioner. You think how many overloads that sorc will do meanwhile? Not mentioning dmg is only profit overload have as ulti. Incap have dmg, stun, healing debuff, increasing dmg by 20%. And if You want to spam overload You cant use other ultis on nb You can throw meteor and have incap charged in 2 secons after that.

LulzSec · July 2016

The strong will survive and the weak will perish

juhasman · July 2016

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Are you running any impenetrable or crit hit resist ? Most PvP players are and those numbers are rarely generated . How about a run down of your gear before we go further .

I was not damaged for 18k. It was me who hit for 18k. 18490 if i good remember. It's obvious enemie had low crit resists. But You think what, then when he would have 3k crit resists i would hit him for 5k? Doubt it.

Tryxus · July 2016

juhasman wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Too strong? Nah. It would only be too strong if it would give us a 3rd skill bar and we could use Incap from range multiple times until our Ultimate runs out...

What would You need that 3rd bar for since Nb have soo good skills and passives he barely need to swap on 2nd bar. And Since You're talking about overload i think it's much easier to counter then Incap. Not mentioning I can stealth to somene in cloak and then heavy atack , incap , executioner. You think how many overloads that sorc will do meanwhile? Not mentioning dmg is only profit overload have as ulti. Incap have dmg, stun, healing debuff, increasing dmg by 20%. And if You want to spam overload You cant use other ultis on nb You can throw meteor and have incap charged in 2 secons after that.

Well for ganking, Incap is obviously good: stun from stealth, Incap and you're (almost) done. But in open world PvP, Incap is definitely not the best ulti for a StamBlade

juhasman · July 2016

Tryxus wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Too strong? Nah. It would only be too strong if it would give us a 3rd skill bar and we could use Incap from range multiple times until our Ultimate runs out...

What would You need that 3rd bar for since Nb have soo good skills and passives he barely need to swap on 2nd bar. And Since You're talking about overload i think it's much easier to counter then Incap. Not mentioning I can stealth to somene in cloak and then heavy atack , incap , executioner. You think how many overloads that sorc will do meanwhile? Not mentioning dmg is only profit overload have as ulti. Incap have dmg, stun, healing debuff, increasing dmg by 20%. And if You want to spam overload You cant use other ultis on nb You can throw meteor and have incap charged in 2 secons after that.

Well for ganking, Incap is obviously good: stun from stealth, Incap and you're (almost) done. But in open world PvP, Incap is definitely not the best ulti for a StamBlade

Then what is? Dawnbreaker? Yes it's good but it costs 2x more(I know it's AoE). And fact i am cloaking doesnt make me ganker, it's part of open PvP nb rotation. Here take a look at open PvP of Sypher. Almost every single person here had incap on dead recap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VHq_oXSDJw
Sypher is a good player so it's mainly his skills allowed to perform it but look how quick Incap is charging.

Dracane · July 2016

Tryxus wrote: »

Too strong? Nah. It would only be too strong if it would give us a 3rd skill bar and we could use Incap from range multiple times until our Ultimate runs out...

Would be actually good, since it would be unreflectable and would not be mitigated 15% more by sword and shield blocks.

Unlike Overload, which is both of these things and also so obvious, that no somewhat good player should ever be surprised by it.

Rohamad_Ali · July 2016

juhasman wrote: »

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Are you running any impenetrable or crit hit resist ? Most PvP players are and those numbers are rarely generated . How about a run down of your gear before we go further .

I was not damaged for 18k. It was me who hit for 18k. 18490 if i good remember. It's obvious enemie had low crit resists. But You think what, then when he would have 3k crit resists i would hit him for 5k? Doubt it.

That's not how the numbers work . I find it strange you want to nerf your own class as well without knowing the details on your opponent .

Tryxus · July 2016

Dracane wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Too strong? Nah. It would only be too strong if it would give us a 3rd skill bar and we could use Incap from range multiple times until our Ultimate runs out...

Would be actually good, since it would be unreflectable and would not be mitigated 15% more by sword and shield blocks.

Unlike Overload, which is both of these things and also so obvious, that no somewhat good player should ever be surprised by it.

Incapacitating Overload? Would be very good, especially that access to a 3rd skill bar and those powerful ranged blasts...

juhasman wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Too strong? Nah. It would only be too strong if it would give us a 3rd skill bar and we could use Incap from range multiple times until our Ultimate runs out...

What would You need that 3rd bar for since Nb have soo good skills and passives he barely need to swap on 2nd bar. And Since You're talking about overload i think it's much easier to counter then Incap. Not mentioning I can stealth to somene in cloak and then heavy atack , incap , executioner. You think how many overloads that sorc will do meanwhile? Not mentioning dmg is only profit overload have as ulti. Incap have dmg, stun, healing debuff, increasing dmg by 20%. And if You want to spam overload You cant use other ultis on nb You can throw meteor and have incap charged in 2 secons after that.

Well for ganking, Incap is obviously good: stun from stealth, Incap and you're (almost) done. But in open world PvP, Incap is definitely not the best ulti for a StamBlade

Then what is? Dawnbreaker? Yes it's good but it costs 2x more(I know it's AoE). And fact i am cloaking doesnt make me ganker, it's part of open PvP nb rotation. Here take a look at open PvP of Sypher. Almost every single person here had incap on dead recap.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VHq_oXSDJw
Sypher is a good player so it's mainly his skills allowed to perform it but look how quick Incap is charging.

Small battles...

And yeah, Dawnbreaker of Smiting > Incap in Regular PvP or zerg vs zerg fights. Incap is more suited for gank, 1v1 and small scale

juhasman · July 2016

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Are you running any impenetrable or crit hit resist ? Most PvP players are and those numbers are rarely generated . How about a run down of your gear before we go further .

I was not damaged for 18k. It was me who hit for 18k. 18490 if i good remember. It's obvious enemie had low crit resists. But You think what, then when he would have 3k crit resists i would hit him for 5k? Doubt it.

That's not how the numbers work . I find it strange you want to nerf your own class as well without knowing the details on your opponent .

I play many different builds not just nb (last time less due to PvP performance and disballance), without any special favours for 1 of them that's why i want the ballance and incap seems to be pretty unbalanced. Especially if i hit player with full impen still for 11k crit (he had 3178 crit resist when we tested it).

juhasman · July 2016

@Tryxus If i am talking about PvP i am always talking from small scale perspective i am not zerger. Zerg vs zerg is totally different story and have it's own ballance issues. Fact that dawnbreaker is more usefull in mass PvP doesnt change the fact Incap is still OP. It's like saying soul assault is useless because meteor is AoE...

Tryxus · July 2016

juhasman wrote: »

@Tryxus If i am talking about PvP i am always talking from small scale perspective i am not zerger. Zerg vs zerg is totally different story and have it's own ballance issues. Fact that dawnbreaker is more usefull in mass PvP doesnt change the fact Incap is still OP. It's like saying soul assault is useless because meteor is AoE...

And I guess that's where the problem lies, because when I talk about something that's OP, I'm talking about something that's too strong in any given situation

NB (StamBlades) have Incap, which is a cheap Ultimate that does good damage, applies 2 debuffs and has a knockdown. But it also has its drawback such as: range, hits only 1 target, easily dodged or blocked, etc... And it's NOT a good Ultimate to use in certain situations

It's a good Ultimate nonetheless, but I don't consider it OP. (and just to clear up any confusion, I don't think Overload is either

)

juhasman · July 2016

Tryxus wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

@Tryxus If i am talking about PvP i am always talking from small scale perspective i am not zerger. Zerg vs zerg is totally different story and have it's own ballance issues. Fact that dawnbreaker is more usefull in mass PvP doesnt change the fact Incap is still OP. It's like saying soul assault is useless because meteor is AoE...

And I guess that's where the problem lies, because when I talk about something that's OP, I'm talking about something that's too strong in any given situation

NB (StamBlades) have Incap, which is a cheap Ultimate that does good damage, applies 2 debuffs and has a knockdown. But it also has its drawback such as: range, hits only 1 target, easily dodged or blocked, etc... And it's NOT a good Ultimate to use in certain situations

It's a good Ultimate nonetheless, but I don't consider it OP. (and just to clear up any confusion, I don't think Overload is either )

With that way of thinking none of skills is OP and non is underpowered because always we can find situation when it'll be useless or usefull. There is no offensive ability which is too strong in like You said ,,any given situation" . Number of situations where we can say ,,Incap is useless for me right now" is so low comparing to situations when You'll be able to burst someone in 2 sec thx for it that this 1st option is almost totally not important for overall view of skill. If You can use ulti more often then Your main spammable ability something is wrong. Belive me if negate wold cost sorcs 50 ulti there would be much more sorcs without 3rd bar.

Tryxus · July 2016

juhasman wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Tryxus If i am talking about PvP i am always talking from small scale perspective i am not zerger. Zerg vs zerg is totally different story and have it's own ballance issues. Fact that dawnbreaker is more usefull in mass PvP doesnt change the fact Incap is still OP. It's like saying soul assault is useless because meteor is AoE...

And I guess that's where the problem lies, because when I talk about something that's OP, I'm talking about something that's too strong in any given situation

NB (StamBlades) have Incap, which is a cheap Ultimate that does good damage, applies 2 debuffs and has a knockdown. But it also has its drawback such as: range, hits only 1 target, easily dodged or blocked, etc... And it's NOT a good Ultimate to use in certain situations

It's a good Ultimate nonetheless, but I don't consider it OP. (and just to clear up any confusion, I don't think Overload is either )

With that way of thinking none of skills is OP and non is underpowered because always we can find situation when it'll be useless or usefull. There is no offensive ability which is too strong in like You said ,,any given situation" . Number of situations where we can say ,,Incap is useless for me right now" is so low comparing to situations when You'll be able to burst someone in 2 sec thx for it that this 1st option is almost totally not important for overall view of skill. If You can use ulti more often then Your main spammable ability something is wrong. Belive me if negate wold cost sorcs 50 ulti there would be much more sorcs without 3rd bar.

That way of thinking is more "openminded": I know Incap is pretty strong, but at the same time I'm not oblivious to its downsides either (as mentioned above). And because of these downsides, there are situations where Incap isn't as useful as other Ultimates out there. Just try to look at the bigger picture

juhasman · July 2016

Tryxus wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Tryxus If i am talking about PvP i am always talking from small scale perspective i am not zerger. Zerg vs zerg is totally different story and have it's own ballance issues. Fact that dawnbreaker is more usefull in mass PvP doesnt change the fact Incap is still OP. It's like saying soul assault is useless because meteor is AoE...

And I guess that's where the problem lies, because when I talk about something that's OP, I'm talking about something that's too strong in any given situation

NB (StamBlades) have Incap, which is a cheap Ultimate that does good damage, applies 2 debuffs and has a knockdown. But it also has its drawback such as: range, hits only 1 target, easily dodged or blocked, etc... And it's NOT a good Ultimate to use in certain situations

It's a good Ultimate nonetheless, but I don't consider it OP. (and just to clear up any confusion, I don't think Overload is either )

With that way of thinking none of skills is OP and non is underpowered because always we can find situation when it'll be useless or usefull. There is no offensive ability which is too strong in like You said ,,any given situation" . Number of situations where we can say ,,Incap is useless for me right now" is so low comparing to situations when You'll be able to burst someone in 2 sec thx for it that this 1st option is almost totally not important for overall view of skill. If You can use ulti more often then Your main spammable ability something is wrong. Belive me if negate wold cost sorcs 50 ulti there would be much more sorcs without 3rd bar.

That way of thinking is more "openminded": I know Incap is pretty strong, but at the same time I'm not oblivious to its downsides either (as mentioned above). And because of these downsides, there are situations where Incap isn't as useful as other Ultimates out there. Just try to look at the bigger picture

,,Bigger picture" means zerg side picture? For now the only downside You mentioned is ,,single target". Seriously comparing this downside to all profits of ulti You still think it's ballanced? We're talking about ulti that cost 50 points here and gives more bonuses then any other ulti. Only the fact it gives stun, major defile and increase the dmg by 20% recompansate that 1 downside which is sinle target a lot. The fact it costs 50 points it's a joke. Fact it's melee, dodgable and blockable isnt downside as long as nb have fear and cloak. I dont see nothing opneminded in Your thinking i see just someone looking from 1 perspective - nightblade perspective.

Tryxus · July 2016

You know...

I'm done here, cuz obviously you're unwilling to discuss this any further

juhasman · July 2016

Tryxus wrote: »

You know...

I'm done here, cuz obviously you're unwilling to discuss this any further

I would wish to discuss this a lot but not with someone who gives agruments like ,,there are other strong ultimates". This discussion is about incap and I am Interrested what people thing about Incap not about dawnbreaker etc. Otherwise it would start to resemble RD discussions where people compare jesus beam spam to snipe spam which is not a topic.

Roechacca · July 2016

Lets see some video of this testing. If you can't do video I can.

juhasman · July 2016

Roechacca wrote: »

Lets see some video of this testing. If you can't do video I can.

Can You be more specific?

Roechacca · July 2016

juhasman wrote: »

Roechacca wrote: »

Lets see some video of this testing. If you can't do video I can.

Can You be more specific?

I'll get on my crit resist tank, you get on your NB, and let's see if these numbers show up.

juhasman · July 2016

@Roechacca are You PC EU player? Or can You jump into PTS if not?

Roechacca · July 2016

juhasman wrote: »

@Roechacca are You PC EU player? Or can You jump into PTS if not?

I can load up pts.

juhasman · July 2016

@Roechacca How long it will take You? I mean You'll start ti download it or You need just to update it? Because i dont know whould I log into pts right now or wait.

Roechacca · July 2016

juhasman wrote: »

@Roechacca How long it will take You? I mean You'll start ti download it or You need just to update it? Because i dont know whould I log into pts right now or wait.

It needs to update. I'll be on most of the day tomorrow. I'll run some tests with you and let's see if we can reproduce those numbers your seeing.

juhasman · July 2016

Roechacca wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

@Roechacca How long it will take You? I mean You'll start ti download it or You need just to update it? Because i dont know whould I log into pts right now or wait.

It needs to update. I'll be on most of the day tomorrow. I'll run some tests with you and let's see if we can reproduce those numbers your seeing.

Ok but You realise on PTS You'll need to create 300 cp template if You're NA? So i dont know will You be able to make the same build there like You have on live.

Roechacca · July 2016

Is test center different for EU then NA? I have no clue about EU testing.

juhasman · July 2016

It's the same PTS but NA get their characters for 2 weeks 1st and then they have them removed and EU get their characters. You can still play on PTS but not with You characters from live server just with 300 cp templates.