I have centered a build around radiant destruction. Its awesome. Vampires bane, lightning staff, javelin, and radiant destruction. 1v1 centered. With vamps bane ticking and radiant destruction ticking, even at full health stamina build shiver in fear...which is my main problem in pvp right now is dealing with those *** XD

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Solariken wrote: »

@FENGRUSH, @Zheg and others,

We have to be careful here as well - I see you discussing the speed at which the first tick applies and the victim's available reaction time, but as it functions currently, it's nearly identical to the way Executioner/Slice functions.

What is true for RD is true for all executes - they have to be fast and minimize reaction time, otherwise they will hardly ever have the intended effect due to the speed at which Rally or BoL etc can burst heal back above execute threshold.

The first tick of RD occurs at the exact instant that the beam visual propagates. HOWEVER, there is a wind-up character animation that plays before either of those things occur. If you fight a Templar 1v1 you will see this very clearly.

You can no more easily avoid Executioner than RD if you don't pre-empt it. If you enter execute range, you better be in defensive mode. It's safer to just know that if you are fighting a good player and you drop to 30% HP, they are going to execute you.

As with other aspects of RD, if you monkey with the time that elapses from button press to damage output, you will probably destroy RD as a functional execute and it will become nothing but a potato spell once again.

You cant look through crowds to see templars who are about to radiant you. There is no reaction. Executioner from 2H has to be used at melee range, and is not channeled. Its a great skill - but you will likely expect a 2hander in melee range of you to execute you when you get low. It also doesnt go through roll dodge and carry as you use *whatever escape*.

Were not really talking about 1v1 here - thats not the application that is relevant. Its also not the only thing to consider in balancing any skill. This skill is meant to be used and is most effective with groups. While someone else is throwing on damage, the beam ques up to hit as they are under pressure and burn them for execute. Sure, its good and relevant in 1v1 too. Its terrible to face for a stam sorc when a javelin/meteor/dark flare/beam come together. It doesnt feel very good at all on a class without a burst heal/shield /mending - but thats not what this discussion is about. Its about making beam a realistic unique execute that keeps its strengths but realistic in general XvX pvp. I dont think it is today.

I don't disagree with any of that. I would like to find some happy balance for the skill too, but we are faced with a lot of problems when trying to tweak the existing functionality.

You are right about RD not being a problem in 1v1 and also correct that this one single skill gives too much power to zergs and it heavily disfavors the outnumbered person.

Without replacing the skill entirely, I have no idea what can be done, because tweaking it is guaranteed to destroy it.

blabafat wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

blabafat wrote: »

@Joy_Division does his homework

@Joy_Division missed the point completely. You said in Legend guild chat at duels back when I was officer that you didn't know why magplar had buffs coming with Thieves Guild and that you thought it was balanced before those buffs.

Joy is twisting it to suggest that I said you want RD to be dodgeable now. Idk how that jump in logic is made, and idk why quoting the opinion of an expert at a class is so taboo.

Also I'll warn you against associating the length of a presentation with its accuracy or trustworthiness.

Ah I didn't read a lot of the posts on here. I just found it interesting that he went back to a lot of my comments, that's all.

Truuuuue

Zheg wrote: »

Fixing/buffing purge seems to be popular. I wonder how many would still call for nerfs if purge was just buffed into usefulness. That may be one of the big gaps of disagreement here. I see no need for nerfs (among other reasons) because i have purify, GG. If purge was cheaper/better and more people were able to find jesus beam not so bad as a result, that seems like the better course to me. If you choose not to run a buffed purge, thats your choice and on you - i choose not to run defensive posture and accept the results, you should too.

Would love for a purge buff. Would make a huge difference.

However, it's single target purge that needs buffing, but the ability is a group support ability in the support tree.

I actually wrote up a few paragraphs on it last week before scrapping them, having realized that buffing purge can quickly send the skill over the top again. I didn't want to start a whole new branch of the debate.

If the bug where it only hits your first 6 group members is fixed, then it's still a useful ability in group. If you use it outside of a group, it's ridiculously expensive for the effect. I for one like this.

If you scale the cost with allies hit, then it gets overly complicated, but that'd be a good way to go.

But if you make it remotely good single target, then all magicka players would just run it and magicka DKs and debuff builds and stam dot builds all become garbage again.

In my opinion, a widely accessible single target purge is a bad idea. That should be reserved for Templars and group specs, and the game should be balanced around there not being a great self-purge for the other classes.

I just worry about rekting other weak builds with a purge buff just to deal with radiant. If you go watch my last video in the heavy armor destro resto fight, I always outnumbered and had a TON of dots and debuffs on me. They stream down the right side of my screen. Yet I did fine without a purge. Imo debuffs are not op, so touching purge should be done very carefully. There's a lot of collateral damage at risk with that spell.

@FENGRUSH -

I do agree and know RD does immediate damage the instant the button is pressed and before the game's animation convey this to the target. I do not dispute this and agree it is a terrible thing to play with.

However, it would take a pretty fair amount of evidence to convince me this phenomenon is somehow unique to RD. Many, many times I have found myself uppercutted, shield charged, crystal fragged, or outright killed on attacks I swore I either blocked or dodged or healed or something in time ... judging by ESO's animations. I am unsure this is a latency thing or ESO just calculate attack upon immediately pressing the attack button (as opposed to when the animation actually plays out) but it's real and I see the damage numbers up pop in my combat log (both as attacker and target) before these attacks appear on the screen.

Is this something that merits a special nerf to RD because it is so dangerous? That's I'm not so sure of. You - and everybody - keep saying the execute threshold is 50%, but that is misleading. The damage does start scaling at that point, but when the target is at 49% health, the damage they are receiving is NOT worthy of being called an execute. The fact of the matter is you at 49% chance are in more lethal danger if the templar is using sweeps and that damage is hitting you before the actual animations play out. And ever since the day 1.6 was released every class and spec except a magicka DK could absoultely land an insta-kill in a single global cooldown to a taret at 50% health. Players should always be in a defensive position or at least ready to immediately adopt one and that's an Eric Wrobel ESO thing, not just a templar Jesus Beam thing. And stop saying RD is the only execute in the game at 50% because Executioner follows the same scaling mechanics.

Of course, to be clear, no damage from any skill should ever take away people's health without the animation playing out and time to react.

But OK fine, maybe you disagree and want to nerf the execute threshold to 25%. Well, that's going to ***-off the PvE community, but for PvP I could live with that because I am not one of those morons who spam this at 100%. But are we done? Or, is the just the start of the RD nerf train? are we also putting in the 18 meter nerf to make things "fair" for melee classes and removing the moderate damage to "bring it in line with other executes" and doing other things people suggest? ZoS will likely hack this skill up as you say if those advocating for a nerf just keep tossing complaints rather than prioritizing what aspects to change and what to keep

Soris wrote: »

Again, we dont need more damage. What we need is buff for our underwhelming and outdated abilities, so remove beam and buff our utility skills instead for trade off. Primarily Blazing Shield, Radiant Aura, Eclipse, Solar Barrage and Healing Ritual. Also BRING BACK BLINDING FLASHES!

Not sure about deleting beam or bringing flashes back, but the rest of these definitely need attention.

Solariken wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

Counterplay to beam is focused in two class abilities, crushing shock, venom arrow, bashing, and LoS.

@KenaPKK those may be the explicit counters to the beam itself, but in reality 99.9% of the time any ranged CC will do the trick. Whenever someone opens a beam on me, I immediately block-cast a Javelin in their face. I actually prefer this because it creates a longer window of time for me to counter or run away before they can beam me again. Regular interrupts or bashing don't necessarily stop them from spamming.

If you don't want to slot an interrupt, just figure out which ranged CC you like and use that. Then once you realize how effective it is for countering RD, you can share the good news with all the other haters and one day we can stop seeing these RD nerf threads.

This would become a buff Agony / Rune Prison / Fossilize thread. Fact is only Templar has a solid ranged cc that can be tossed out at that range whenever a beamer shows up, and few Templars even use it. Gotta consider other classes in your analysis, same as I told Zheg.

Very true point that I failed to include ranged ccs in my post, though. I didn't think of Javelin because Templars have purify, and I didn't think of the other 3 because they're all so ineffective. I'd be all for across the board buffs to ranged ccs. Would need to take cc immunity and how easily beam can be reapplied into account.

RD seems to be getting worse every time I log on. It really is out of control. Does everyone have a Templar alt?

Should be dodgeable if it hits above 20%, undodgeable it it hits below 20%.

WebBull wrote: »

RD seems to be getting worse every time I log on. It really is out of control. Does everyone have a Templar alt?

Should be dodgeable if it hits above 20%, undodgeable it it hits below 20%.

That's a new and interesting idea.

KenaPKK wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

@Zheg @maxjapank if the execute threshold is 25% and you use the ability at 25%, they'll almost always just die, especially with the initial tick that hits as the animation starts. Killing the target will end the channel ya know, and killing people with beam happens really quickly when you use your execute properly.

Actually... killing the target does NOT end the channel :P I can't tell you how many times my beam lingers for the full duration on a dead body if I don't cancel it myself.

Yes, they are most likely going to die, but there are also many times where they are healed up and now you've been channeling something making yourself vulnerable to someone else's incoming attacks (or theirs). The skill also slows your character while channeling, not so fun in the current meta where you're snared more often than not by regular abilities.

Again. Spoken like someone who plays a Magicka Templar. As I'd expect.

@Zheg Don't you get tired of people posting who don't know jack $%&# about the class?

If I can't speak against beam because I'm not a Templar player, then you and Zheg as a Templar players may not speak in its defense because bias. Identical and equally poor logic. Also notice the more experienced Templars than Zheg speaking in favor of a buff in this thread, including the OP. Idk who you are because I can't see signatures.

This is a bug that I have not seen in Cyrodiil ever and which has never come up in conversation, and I know a lot of excellent Templars with more comprehensive experience than Zheg. If it truly exists, though, then it is a bug and does not influence balance discussions. Have it fixed.

Regardless, you need to face my arguments regarding the skill if you wish to salvage your place here. Stop sidetracking the discussion and trying to make it personal.

From my experience, killing _should_ end the channel but I often find with lag if the player dies somewhere between me requesting the cast, the server receiving the request to cast, and my client then acknowledging and starting to beam (assuming that's what happens on the technical side), I'll keep beaming the dead body and have to manually cancel it. Having 300+ms ping, this occurs more than I'd prefer.

Nifty2g wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Oh fuxxake. Lol. L2P

you say L2P but really, it's the ones sitting in the back hitting 1 button for their day in Cyrodill. Those are the ones who need to L2P and stop with terrible game play.

The one standing in the back? Do you mean the ones working siege?

DKsUnite wrote: »

just make it 15m like the NB execute.... if they wanna hit me for 15k then i want them to be next to me

I also agree

Overload isn't an execute.

I get you're point with RD ... people are doing the same with Poison Injection and Snipe. Especially from keeps. RD is much easier to see so it will get more complaints.

I think Bombard is a bigger pain in the butt. They sit in the back and spam bombard while others gap close execute spam on infinitely rooted players. It's BS. What do you got for that?

I think Talons has been a pain in the butt longer. A stam build has the magicka to run a magicka build (or 5) out of stamina.

I think poisons are bigger pain in the butt. Where did that debuff come from? Where'd my stam go? I didn't see anyone cast Reverb or Dark Flare ... the don't effing have to anymore. Anything can happen at any time. Every class has every debuff, every buff ... Homogenized just like ZOS always said they want to avoid.

I think gimmick sets are bigger pain in the butt. Purple tether ...

But siege is Cancer. To get sieged on by a zerg is the epitome of broken mechanics. Siege empowers zergs and cheeze player more so then RD ever could. You don't have to be a templar. You don't even have to unlock a skill. The fact that you can drop siege on your friends and only harm the enemy is super broke and there is ZERO reason not to exploit it. Whats the counter to siege? Can't reflect siege. It takes skill and throws it out the window.

Another cancer is Resource farms were zergs are using not only siege but NPC guards to farm groups. It would be great if NPC despawn as more allied players show up.

Another Cancer is Emp. Why does the winning team (which is usually the zerging team) need a bufffed player to help them win harder? You pray for a paper Emp because when it's a decent player at Emp he can own the game. It's stupid.

The gaps between players are to great and therefore any skill such as bombard, talons, Magicka Det, RD, etc, are going to be used to death. It's also a reward based system. People need their AP.

I still believe the best fix is to put it at 25% execution range and shorten the range to where mag nb impale is at