Lets Balance Radiant Destruction

Nifty2g · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

It was brought up as a factor nifty, not the end all be all. Your suggestion was also evaluated. And yes, you very likely would have done the same on a pve suggestion you disagreed with. Maybe ill be surprised, but im pretty sure we could quote you doing the same thing. Youve had serioudly heated pve comments before.

I don't think I've said to someone before their opinion doesn't matter because they PvP. But I'll stand corrected if you can find that.
Though I've most likely said l2p or something to people as a joke

I was just stating that in PvE it focuses a lot on rotations, at least end game does. When a cooldown is introduced it is highly noticeable. PvP I'd argue doesn't contain that amount of rotations because you have far too much to focus on than maximizing your DPS output. Which is why I said you should try it out to see what I am talking about with cooldowns and why this change doesn't effect PvE and why it would help PvP. Maybe now after a little bit of explaining you might agree with me to some extent that this change to balance RD is on the right path, might not be the perfect one but I personally thinking adjusting it's cooldown is the right way to balance it. Because the issue I am seeing a lot and experiencing is multiple beams at once becoming too overwhelming to the player.

I'd argue that the old way was good with RD that only 1 beam will get the damage the other beams wont, it used to be like this back in the day, until they changed it recently. Which is another reason why beam is so powerful right now in Cyrodill. But that hurt PvE a little too much. Then again, not too many templars do dps, so I'm not sure I personally liked that feature to it.

If snipe, wb, SA/WB, etc. All allowed you to only take damage from one source, then we can talk about going back to that bugged version of jesus beam.

I do not see how having multiple beams on you and it resulting in significant pressure or death means the skill is too strong. It means you were FF'd or outnumbered. And therein lie almost all of my points made over the past few months. There is near unanimous consensus that the skill is balanced in 1v1 and small scale, people struggle when outnumbered. I struggle against jesus beam very little compared to other things when im outnumbered, but my build is not heavily stressed by jesus beam. If i have to struggle against multiple snipe spam when im outnumbered, why the hell should other people not have to struggle against what makes their build vulnerable? Snipe has a range a templar cant even meet. And again, this only applies to outnumbered situations. The infatuation with nerfing the skill under that premise is bananas.

I think it was only the execute damage of beam that didn't apply to multiple, my bad forgot to add that part in.

Which is why I'll just talk about your first sentence I bolded. The skill just completely ramps up in damage as a target gets lower health, having 3 or more on you is just going to eventually result in death, doesn't really have a counter to it as right now with the cooldown it doesn't offer a lot of breathing room. Now I know I disagreed in the past but I never really tried it out and seen what it's like to do it. It's pretty toxic gameplay really. And yes I know there are more skills like this, but I don't really have any experience in those to come up with a justified change to them.

It's not as if increasing the cooldown is going to break the skill and make it useless, but those with beam on them will have a much more counter to it and actually allow them to LoS in time when they need to and properly counter it like everyone says just LoS or bash it, you'll actually have the time to do so without being overwhelmed with multiple at a time. I mean there will still be people saying nerf the overall damage and what not, but I think it'll have better counters with this change.

My build has far few counters to snipe spam. You say the problem is that dmg ramps up? 4 people sniping you, twice so we're in the 2 second phase where you say it ramps up, you die more often than not on a magplar. Maybe you time a dodge roll really well, you can do that about as often as a stamplar can purify those 4 beams. 4 jesus beams? I can survive that and likely die to snipes. Stam build can easily survive the snipes but dies to jesus. These are not widly different situations, snipe is just one example skill and i see it just as much if not more than jesus beam. Now compare the furor over nerfing jesus beam vs nerfing snipe. One of these things is not like the other.

For reference, during a laggy fight this weekend one person sniped me twice and i died to some other random skill that finished me off. Thst death was FAR quicker than what youd see from a typical jesus beam TTK from one person, at longer range, heal debuffs, and applies poisons. And yet we are on the 35th + nerf jesus beam thread. Maybe now you see why find this whole nerf thread circus so ridiculous.

You say your build has few counters to snipe spam but RD doesn't bother you, then what about the dragonknight that has no issues with snipe but has issues with RD? This is just a biased argument

You see, I'm not talking about scenarios, I'm talking about overall.

Ah HAH. There we have it. The difference is that i accept my build is weak to snipe spam - particularly multiple people. I embrace that as rock/paper/scissor and the decision to have lower stats or cover more bases and have additional counters to snipe.

Im not asking for snipe to be nerfed. The DK? Not so much. There arent dozens of threads asking for snipe to be nerfed. Im talking about overall as well - the exact same situations people say jesus beam needs to be nerfed apply to snipe and other skills in outnumbered situations. No one ever wants that pointed out though. Im not going to die to someone spamming snipe on me, if im outnumbered though, and multiple people are doing it? I die just as much as these 1vX try-hards do to jesus beam.

I just don't see the comparison for snipe and beam, one has up front damage another has travel time and a cast time. The only time snipe becomes an issue is probably on a keep when they all gather up and just spam snipe at you, but during that time it's most likely zerg v zerg and there are heals being pumped out no stop.

You can also spec for beam however you want and still be effective, most of the snipe users are pretty damn weak open world if an enemy gets close to them as they slowly walk backwards charging up snipe against you and often die before they get their attack off.

I barely try to 1vX, it's not my playstyle I don't really enjoy playing solo just because I'd prefer to play with friends, but I just see beam becoming a huge problem and soon it's going to be nerfed in the wrong way and get a damage reduction, I can see it happening. Personally I want to prevent that

KenaPKK · July 2016

Oh and also, sorcs and DKs don't have any beam counter other than bashing, which is what we WANT them to use following a range nerf, LoS, which isn't functioning properly, and Purge, which is magicka and has its own slew of issues. Reduce the cost on Purge by 2/3, and maybe it can enter the conversation.

Poor Purge.

Zheg · July 2016

Purge should get buffed significantly, most of us have said that. You point out that sorc and DK dont have a good counter to jesus beam, dk have wings to counter my snipe spam issue, would certainly make my magplar life a lot easier, just like purify would make their lives easier. Rock. Paper. You know where im going with this.

People absolutely go snipe crazy open field, its not just keep walls. The mechanics are slightly different because one is channeled and the other is direct, but the pressure and situations are almost identical. In fact, given the bombardtard spam meta, tons of people have bows and tons use snipe for single target damage. Again, its not even just the damage, they heal debuff, apply poisons, and can weave. They can also break up their snipes because its only 1 second if they need to react to something, the same cant be said for a templar unless they block and eat the magicka loss. But nerf jesus beam because? Some builds have a hard time with it? Pay no attention to builds that are fine against the skill but struggle with things like snipe in outnumbered situations?

Ive yet to see a solid argument against the points ive just reiterated in the dozens of jesus beam threads, just new threads.

Nifty2g · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Purge should get buffed significantly, most of us have said that. You point out that sorc and DK dont have a good counter to jesus beam, dk have wings to counter my snipe spam issue, would certainly make my magplar life a lot easier, just like purify would make their lives easier. Rock. Paper. You know where im going with this.

People absolutely go snipe crazy open field, its not just keep walls. The mechanics are slightly different because one is channeled and the other is direct, but the pressure and situations are almost identical. In fact, given the bombardtard spam meta, tons of people have bows and tons use snipe for single target damage. Again, its not even just the damage, they heal debuff, apply poisons, and can weave. They can also break up their snipes because its only 1 second if they need to react to something, the same cant be said for a templar unless they block and eat the magicka loss. But nerf jesus beam because? Some builds have a hard time with it? Pay no attention to builds that are fine against the skill but struggle with things like snipe in outnumbered situations?

Ive yet to see a solid argument against the points ive just reiterated in the dozens of jesus beam threads, just new threads.

I just gave you a solid argument on the area I think beam needs fixing, I admit my fix is not finalized by any means but I think it's on the right path to balance it out

In the end, all of these threads resort back to the reasoning; there is not enough breathing room when faced with multiple compared to what every other skill has.

Zheg · July 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Purge should get buffed significantly, most of us have said that. You point out that sorc and DK dont have a good counter to jesus beam, dk have wings to counter my snipe spam issue, would certainly make my magplar life a lot easier, just like purify would make their lives easier. Rock. Paper. You know where im going with this.

People absolutely go snipe crazy open field, its not just keep walls. The mechanics are slightly different because one is channeled and the other is direct, but the pressure and situations are almost identical. In fact, given the bombardtard spam meta, tons of people have bows and tons use snipe for single target damage. Again, its not even just the damage, they heal debuff, apply poisons, and can weave. They can also break up their snipes because its only 1 second if they need to react to something, the same cant be said for a templar unless they block and eat the magicka loss. But nerf jesus beam because? Some builds have a hard time with it? Pay no attention to builds that are fine against the skill but struggle with things like snipe in outnumbered situations?

Ive yet to see a solid argument against the points ive just reiterated in the dozens of jesus beam threads, just new threads.

I just gave you a solid argument on the area I think beam needs fixing, I admit my fix is not finalized by any means but I think it's on the right path to balance it out

You have NOT given a solid argument for why jesus beam needs to be nerfed and others do not - not when the only situation you cite as warranting a nerf is when you're heavily outnumbered.

Ive gone back and forth with stam builds who say RD is so OP and needs nerfs but when i say snipe pressures the same people jesus beaming them, they say yeah but you can dodge snipe. Really? Magplars main defense is dodging? News to me. The shoe is reversed in the situations i describe, but only one side is calling for nerfs to what makes their builds weak.

Nifty2g · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Purge should get buffed significantly, most of us have said that. You point out that sorc and DK dont have a good counter to jesus beam, dk have wings to counter my snipe spam issue, would certainly make my magplar life a lot easier, just like purify would make their lives easier. Rock. Paper. You know where im going with this.

People absolutely go snipe crazy open field, its not just keep walls. The mechanics are slightly different because one is channeled and the other is direct, but the pressure and situations are almost identical. In fact, given the bombardtard spam meta, tons of people have bows and tons use snipe for single target damage. Again, its not even just the damage, they heal debuff, apply poisons, and can weave. They can also break up their snipes because its only 1 second if they need to react to something, the same cant be said for a templar unless they block and eat the magicka loss. But nerf jesus beam because? Some builds have a hard time with it? Pay no attention to builds that are fine against the skill but struggle with things like snipe in outnumbered situations?

Ive yet to see a solid argument against the points ive just reiterated in the dozens of jesus beam threads, just new threads.

I just gave you a solid argument on the area I think beam needs fixing, I admit my fix is not finalized by any means but I think it's on the right path to balance it out

You have NOT given a solid argument for why jesus beam needs to be nerfed and others do not - not when the only situation you cite as warranting a nerf is when you're heavily outnumbered.

Ive gone back and forth with stam builds who say RD is so OP and needs nerfs but when i say snipe pressures the same people jesus beaming them, they say yeah but you can dodge snipe. Really? Magplars main defense is dodging? News to me. The shoe is reversed in the situations i describe, but only one side is calling for nerfs to what makes their builds weak.

Beam doesn't give breathing room, the cooldown is too short and you can easily apply it and watch your damage go up, no matter how you are speced beam will become deadly at 40% when that target reaches there. Which is almost half of your health. you can be a tank and still do decent beam damage, you can be a healer and do decent beam damage, you can be damage speced and do even more beam damage.
The range is 28 meters so you can sit yourself in the back with multiple other beamers and just apply it. MULTIPLE people will get the execute damage making it incredibly deadly if you hit that 40% mark.

My solution isn't to fix the damage nor the range, though range would help a bit, but to fix the cooldown to give more time for a reaction and have less beams on you at one time so you can actually have a chance to properly counter them. The only downside is if you have a group of templars timing their beams to one another, but really, how often is that going to happen.

Please tell me, what is your counter argument to that? Before you continue to rant on about Snipe, make sure you notice how I said breathing room and then go look at snipes cast time and travel time.

Zheg · July 2016

No, the solution is not CD but rather the speed at which the first tick is applied. Ive agreed with fengrush in other threads on that single point (the skill should perform far better in lag with this fix/change though). Ive agreed the LoS needs sorting out because it doesnt work as quickly as it should. These are fixes, not nerfs.

Breathing room is exactly what the magplar in my situation does not have when multiple people are sniping them. I can get hit by 12k snipes outside of stealth by people specced into it, you think it matters if that hits me at 40% and it has execute dmg? Im dead either way. Again, apply poisons, significantly longer range than any templar skill including RD, major defile, good sustained damage - how is that NOT pressure? Im not ranting about snipe, im not asking for it to be nerfed, i am giving a very realistic situation that mirrors the one you present as requiring nerfs of RD, and you dont seem to see the congruency.

Nifty2g · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

No, the solution is not CD but rather the speed at which the first tick is applied. Ive agreed with fengrush in other threads on that single point. Ive agreed the LoS needs sorting out because it doesnt work as quickly as it should. These are fixes, not nerfs.

Breathing room is exactly what the magplar in my situation does not have when multiple people are sniping them. I can get hit by 12k snipes outside of stealth by leople slecced into it, you think it matters if that hits me at 40% and has execute dmg? Im dead either way. Again, apply poisons, significantly longer range than any templar skill including RD, major defile, good sustained damage - how is that NOT pressure? Im not ranting about snipe, im not asking for it to be nerfed, i am giving a very realistic situation that mirrors the one you present as requiring nerfs of RD, and you dont seem to see the congruency.

So you're telling me that when you are being beamed you have less reaction time than when you are facing snipe? Snipe has the same cast time as dark flare and acts almost the exact same way with damage and travel time, need I go back and quote all the hate and how terrible dark flare performs that you have written in this thread?

Not a great way to start off your argument

Zheg · July 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

No, the solution is not CD but rather the speed at which the first tick is applied. Ive agreed with fengrush in other threads on that single point. Ive agreed the LoS needs sorting out because it doesnt work as quickly as it should. These are fixes, not nerfs.

Breathing room is exactly what the magplar in my situation does not have when multiple people are sniping them. I can get hit by 12k snipes outside of stealth by leople slecced into it, you think it matters if that hits me at 40% and has execute dmg? Im dead either way. Again, apply poisons, significantly longer range than any templar skill including RD, major defile, good sustained damage - how is that NOT pressure? Im not ranting about snipe, im not asking for it to be nerfed, i am giving a very realistic situation that mirrors the one you present as requiring nerfs of RD, and you dont seem to see the congruency.

So you're telling me that when you are being beamed you have less reaction time than when you are facing snipe? Snipe has the same cast time as dark flare and acts almost the exact same way with damage and travel time, need I go back and quote all the hate and how terrible dark flare performs that you have written in this thread?

Not a great way to start off your argument

Snipe performs far better than dark flare. Far better. Dark flare also has a longer initial cast time than subsequent casts, its been broken forever. You can also dodge roll at any time during the cast or travel of DF and it will miss, the same is not true for snipe (a stam build can correct that if its wrong).

And im telling you that my reaction is enough to keep me alive in my build through 4 beams being spammed, but my build cannot live through 4 snipe spammers. I dont fall over dead the instant 4 beams hit me unless im low on health. Im also very very rarely in a situation where that would even happen. I find myself in situations where there are 4 snipers far more often though. Itd be difficult to live through either situation, but you should be expected to die and survival should be the exception, not the balance objective.

Nifty2g · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

No, the solution is not CD but rather the speed at which the first tick is applied. Ive agreed with fengrush in other threads on that single point. Ive agreed the LoS needs sorting out because it doesnt work as quickly as it should. These are fixes, not nerfs.

Breathing room is exactly what the magplar in my situation does not have when multiple people are sniping them. I can get hit by 12k snipes outside of stealth by leople slecced into it, you think it matters if that hits me at 40% and has execute dmg? Im dead either way. Again, apply poisons, significantly longer range than any templar skill including RD, major defile, good sustained damage - how is that NOT pressure? Im not ranting about snipe, im not asking for it to be nerfed, i am giving a very realistic situation that mirrors the one you present as requiring nerfs of RD, and you dont seem to see the congruency.

So you're telling me that when you are being beamed you have less reaction time than when you are facing snipe? Snipe has the same cast time as dark flare and acts almost the exact same way with damage and travel time, need I go back and quote all the hate and how terrible dark flare performs that you have written in this thread?

Not a great way to start off your argument

Snipe performs far better than dark flare. Far better. Dark flare also has a longer initial cast time than subsequent casts, its been broken forever. You can also dodge roll at any time during the cast or travel of DF and it will miss, the same is not true for snipe (a stam build can correct that if its wrong).

And im telling you that my reaction is enough to keep me alive in my build through 4 beams being spammed, but my build cannot live through 4 snipe spammers. I dont fall over dead the instant 4 beams hit me unless im low on health. Im also very very rarely in a situation where that would even happen. I find myself in situations where there are 4 snipers far more often though. Itd be difficult to live through either situation, but you should be expected to die and survival should be the exception, not the balance objective.

I've dodge rolled a snipe the other day, I find dark flare to be more dangerous as you get hit by the debuff before the attack even hits you.

I don't see how you can say snipe is so dangerous but dark flare is so terrible, I just don't see that. They both act the same way in how they deal damage.

you can easily out range snipe by dodging then misting away, they wont be able to catch up with how slow it takes to wind it up and how the movement speed is reduced while casting.

But beam? They will just toppling charge after you and beam you, and not getting any heals in mist form with multiple beams on you is pretty rough if you reach low health

I'm just saying I don't see your counter arguments that great at all especially referencing snipe while you've been saying how bad dark flare is.

zuto40 · July 2016

I got on my tank, went into pvp

Battle spirit
25% magic resistance from cp
mist form
undeath
maxed resistances

tic still does 6k

seems really balanced zenimax 10/10 would be beamed again

Zheg · July 2016

No nifty, you cannot outrange snipe as easily as you portray. You realize the base range of snipe is far longer than DF and RD? You think you can out range someone sniping you but the range of jesus beam is a problem? Wut? Youre snared when jesus beaming and moving just as slow as a sniper if not more.

Dark flare is also beastly against a non rolly polly, but has defensive posture as a great counter whereas snipe does not. The animation is far more obvious for DF, and ircc the projectile speed is faster for snipe. I wasnt just limiting my scenario to snipe, it just seemed to be a great mirror to your jesus beam because it flips the build weaknesses. Dark flare could be used as well. The point wasnt snipe. The point was your outnumbered situation that makes jesus beam OP makes multiple other skills OP and i dont see nerf calls for those spamming the forums over the past few months.

Darnathian · July 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

Why should one opinion count for more over another? Just because of PVP rank? My Templar is rank 24. How much weight is my opinion allowed to carry?

Have you been playing Templar on a regular basis in the current Meta? If so, then yes, I think your opinion carries more weight.

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

The point is that an execute shouldn't be dealing as much damage as it is capable of dealing on a full health target.

But it doesn't do much damage on a full health target. It just doesn't. So why should I continue to listen to your opinion when you are posting false information?

Current meta, lol. Really?

As for damage, it's really easy to get around 4 or 5k ticks at full health. Just spec for it and read the tooltip

@Alcast does a great showing how terrible it can be in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q8v-oTHPio

And this is from you in the thread where this video was posted....

Nifty2g wrote: »

Simple, this thread/video is stupid, you're just buffing your beam and not specing into anything else, highly ineffective in anything but picking someone off here and there.

And another quote from you...

Nifty2g wrote: »

As stated previously, RD is not just an execute, it clearly states in the tooltip it is a semi okayish DPS ability. Which is fine because Templar lack DPS abilities.
Just because it turns into an execute doesn't mean anything .

And finally a quote from Gina back in March...

Thanks for your feedback on this ability, everyone. We did take a look at this ability just to make sure it was working properly and as intended, and it is. There are some circumstances where it can feasibly hit pretty hard, but that's ok in our eyes and we don't currently have plans to change its functionality. It's also worth noting that the way our Death Recap UI works is it combines all tickets of one channel together into one entry, so it may appear as though Radiant Destruction has some outrageous damage at first.
Gina Bruno
Community Manager - The Elder Scrolls Online

Didn't agree with it back then, quoting something I said awhile back doesn't really mean anything, obviously my opinion changed?

And I guarantee you, the developers opinion are probably also going to change. At least I hope so

Yeah no, forget about ZOS' opinion, you shot down a video because it was unrealistic and "stupid" in your own words and are now praising it and citing it as an example. That's what you were being called out for nifty. Sure, some people change their minds, a whole lot of people seem to do it with Jesus beam regarding what they want nerfed about it. It's trendy. You don't identify the flaws in a video and then magically forget about them and use it as an example in your arguments.

Zheg, opinions change and yes I didn't agree with the video and picked flaws out, but now I agree with it. Don't try and tell me I can't change my own opinion lmao, who do you think you are? Honestly some of your replies are hilarious

The flaws I picked out in the video weren't even that great, but you're just grasping anything you can get a hold on to back up arguments I guess

Opinions do change on subjects, but when i point out obvious flaws in a specific video, i do not then laud said video as an example and ignore those flaws even if i agree with the premise.

Some of us are indeed grasping at straws, its not me though.

I don't think I need to go back and explain why my replies back then had no real thought to them, I also hadn't tried it in Cyrodill around that time. I was obviously a biased response, but to try and use them against me and then saying I magically forgot about the flaws. I think it's time for you to leave, not only can you not argue but you resort to personal insults to people when arguing. Just seeing some of the replies against some of the players in here, at this point I think I'd stop.

Also, people cite blab because his opinion matters, no one cares if you don't give a flying *** about it, but when people see the name and the opinion, they care a little bit.

Meh, to me in this thread all you're really doing is arguing nothing what so ever constructive and just ruining a reputation.

You seemingly admit to joining the jesus beam nerf thread circus somewhat recently and then cannot understand why people are at zero patience when it comes to people like kena or jules? If you'd been dealing with them in the previous dozens of threads and dealt with both of their bogus videos meant to deceive people, youd have a little more insight into why seeing kena quote blab for the 25th time has lost its significance. If youd dealt with them being just as insulting if not more, and then having the gall to pretend like theyre on a high horse when it comes to discourse, youd call them out for it too.

If you call pointing out the flaws in why people are calling for nerfs and pointing out their own inconsistencies not constructive, then you dont want a discussion, you want an echo chamber.

It's just you that is getting irritated, most others are starting to realise how terribly and unthoughtful the skill can be, at least I have and I know some others who also have.

You're honestly not offering anything constructive, you are only grasping straws as you like to say, saying there is already lag to cause ICD's, what kind of argument is that lol, not everyone plays in the lag fest you create.

Wrong. All u fail to acknowledge Gina has already stated working as intended.

Most others? Where do u get that from. The few vocal and sometimes hypocritical individuals hating on the skill? lol. Wow. read some of their posts in some of the threads calling for nerfs to Fear and such.

_Chaos · July 2016

As an mDK, I have zero issue with snipe nor RD.
But when a stam DK or stamplar hits vigor and rolls twice while healing to full from 15%, i get a little cheesed that I don't have an execute.

But I don't make threads about it. Every build has a counter. Every scenario has a weakness.

When a skill is balanced 1v1, it's balanced. Please don't start bringing ridiculous scenarios to the table to justify claims of OP-ness.

Seriously, when was the last time anyone lost an even battle to RD?

Not this guy. And I'm bad 1v1.

But for what it's worth, I'd be fine with lowering the range to within gap closing distance.

maxjapank · July 2016

Jules wrote: »

I guess I just don't understand why "changing your mind" or "evolving your opinion" has consistently been ridiculed in this thread. Last time I checked, it's okay to hear others out and over time grow closer towards a consensus with your oppponent. It's okay to think one thing, and have someone convince you that there's an alternative way of looking at it, changing the way you view it. That's called productive conversation.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with evolving your opinion over time. This is a sign of MATURITY. This is a sign of respect for those who disagree with you, and a sign of intelligence. It's okay to open your mind and admit that others have valuable knowledge and points of view in this game. We should all atleast listen to and entertain opinions that counter our own, because often times they have a great deal of validity.

There is nothing wrong with changing your opinion. But if you are going to use a video that you criticized in the past to support your argument now, then you should at least explain what has changed. And Nifty didn't. Sure, his opinion about Radiant has changed, but not in relation to that video. He was spot on in his past comments. If you are going to build for max dps on Radiant, then you are going to be "highly ineffective in anything but picking someone off here and there."
And he was spot on in that comment.

But it gets confusing when he continues to say in this thread about that video "yes I didn't agree with the video and picked flaws out, but now I agree with it...The flaws I picked out in the video weren't even that great"

I'm sorry? "The flaws I picked out in the video weren't even that great"?? So what does that say to anyone reading this thread now? Why should anyone take what he is saying seriously? And I really mean no disrespect to Nifty. But I still think he has limited time in pvp and I still find some of his ideas lacking.

To be honest, I find the constant arguments from players like @KenaPKK to be so relentless and all over the place, that it's just tiring keeping up with it all. The guy says he wants balance, but he begins by complaining because he loses a 1vX fight, where X is 5 or more players. He and others consistently cite Radiant as an execute from 50%, when in reality it doesn't really do any decent damage until 30%. Screenshots of death recaps get posted showing a Radiant doing 10k+ when the player obviously had less than 5k health left. So what?

About the only people I agree with here is @DisgracefulMind and @blabafat in reducing the range a little. Personally, it's not going to make much difference to us, though, as I'm sure most of our Radiant kills come in close quarters.

p.s. I agree with what you write Jules about name calling and respect. But you are very quick to call out Zheg, and yet not Nifty or Kena.

KenaPKK · July 2016

@maxjapank heck yea I'm relentless.

I've been duking it out with Zheg's defenses of this skill and other topics of debate for ages, and I'll keep at it too.

I appear to be all over the place because I respond to his long posts line by line, and I am one of the few willing to do so. It can be daunting to read. I try to keep my posts organized and straightforward, but they are seldom short. As for your comments about 1vX, no fight should automatically be decided by numbers. That attitude is naive and anti-improvement. Also radiant is an undodgeable beam which can be held on an enemy when he is outnumbered and kill him in as few as 2 ticks if he hits 40% health. I do not think asking for it to be brought within gap closer range is too much.

And I first suggested the idea of a range reduction nerf to the forums and have stuck by it since, so thanks for the support.

lol

Zheg · July 2016

I think he meant the sheer volume of jesus beam threads and non jesus beam threads that happen to mention the skill on a whim that you post in. The only reason I feel compelled to keep responding is because I feel strongly that balance via post zerging should not be rewarded, particularly when the premise is wrong and there is a lack of solid arguments that are up to snuff backing it up.

maxjapank · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

As for your comments about 1vX, no fight should automatically be decided by numbers. That attitude is naive and anti-improvement. Also radiant is an undodgeable beam which can be held on an enemy when he is outnumbered and kill him in as few as 2 ticks if he hits 40% health. I do not think asking for it to be brought within gap closer range is too much.

Automatically? Of course not. But is it usually? Yes. But on your death recap, you're likely to have Radiants. And on my death recap, I'm likely to have arrows, surprise attacks, and dizzying swings. Could I dodge those or block those on my death recap? Sure, a few times. But as I'm Magicka, I don't have much stamina, do I? And I don't have the stamina really to run Shuffle either for a 20% passive dodge chance. We all have our weaknesses.

And please quit with the 40%, seriously. It just doesn't happen to most players. The only way I'm going to get a kill on someone with my Radiant from 40%, is if I cc them when you like have no stamina left...or if others are beating on you, in which case you are dying to multiple attacks hitting you, not just my Radiant.

See. This is what is tiring. Really flawed arguments about balance without looking at the bigger picture of class balances, both strengths and weakeness.

But is a shorter range really gonna sastify you? I'm still gonna annhialate you with my Radiant.

Edit: I have now just read through Zheg's and Nifty's comments above. And honestly, Zheg is absolutely right on about what Magicka Templars face in battle. Spoken like someone who plays a Magicka Templar day after day in pvp. The arguments that Nifty makes again shows a lack of experience in the pvp world. I mean no disrespect to him. But it's just not what a Magicka Templar experiences.

KenaPKK · July 2016

Zheg wrote: »

I think he meant the sheer volume of jesus beam threads and non jesus beam threads that happen to mention the skill on a whim that you post in. The only reason I feel compelled to keep responding is because I feel strongly that balance via post zerging should not be rewarded, particularly when the premise is wrong and there is a lack of solid arguments that are up to snuff backing it up.

It is against the forum rules to bump old threads (odd imo), and other people have created more posts on the subject than me. Regardless, what you label "zerg posting," I consider keeping a meaningful conversation in the light. You would make a good politician.

Anyways, the debate ended. It's a strong ability with a big loophole in its counterplay. Give it more universally accessible counterplay. That's all there is to it. You stick around because you know we have a compelling argument and a strong following. And I'll point out that you've stopped defending the ability on its own right and have shifted to attacking us personally. You know what that means in debating.

Zheg · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

I think he meant the sheer volume of jesus beam threads and non jesus beam threads that happen to mention the skill on a whim that you post in. The only reason I feel compelled to keep responding is because I feel strongly that balance via post zerging should not be rewarded, particularly when the premise is wrong and there is a lack of solid arguments that are up to snuff backing it up.

It is against the forum rules to bump old threads (odd imo), and other people have created more posts on the subject than me. Regardless, what you label "zerg posting," I consider keeping a meaningful conversation in the light. You would make a good politician.

Anyways, the debate ended. It's a strong ability with a big loophole in its counterplay. Give it more universally accessible counterplay. That's all there is to it. You stick around because you know we have a compelling argument and a strong following. And I'll point out that you've stopped defending the ability on its own right and have shifted to attacking us personally. You know what that means in debating.

Uhh... scroll up. The past two pages are filled with me giving both you and nifty almost identical but reversed situations where you say RD is too strong but snipe or skill X which has the same end result in that situation is not too strong. It's the same vein of logic I've repeated in nearly every other jesus beam thread; you and others are unable to address it, go quiet, we wait for a new jesus beam thread to show up, and we repeat the same insane cycle all over again. The last content post on the matter was nifty saying you can mist out of range of snipes (far longer range than jesus beam) but you can't do the same for jesus beam (also snares caster). You're welcome to pick up the torch kena, have fun, you'll actually have to back up your claims and eliminate the counter points with me though, or is this the part where you go quiet again and wait for a new thread to pop up and say "it needs the range nerfed" for the 50th time?

KenaPKK · July 2016

@maxjapank

I'm magicka too.

40% health is 10k health or less for the vast majority of players. Considering the second tick would hit harder than the first, that is an entirely reasonable kill threshold considering the beam ticks twice after a second, especially allotting a crit for one of the ticks.

Dying to multiple attacks does not justify them each as balanced individually.

And not sure if you're taking a jab at me or being facetious... You're welcome to try to annihilate me if you like... Lol

maxjapank · July 2016

KenaPKK wrote: »

@maxjapank

I'm magicka too.

40% health is 10k health or less for the vast majority of players. Considering the second tick would hit harder than the first, that is an entirely reasonable kill threshold considering the beam ticks twice after a second, especially allotting a crit for one of the ticks.

Dying to multiple attacks does not justify them each as balanced individually.

And not sure if you're taking a jab at me or being facetious... You're welcome to try to annihilate me if you like... Lol

If the vast majority of players are dying at 40% health, it is not just Radiant that is killing them. I'm sorry, but we are just going to have to disagree here on why they are dying.

As for the "annhialate you" part, it's just an attempt to lighten the mood. But I am happy to add you to my "on farm" list, especially the VIP list where I take you from full health with one beam from 80 yards away.

KenaPKK · July 2016

maxjapank wrote: »

KenaPKK wrote: »

@maxjapank

I'm magicka too.

40% health is 10k health or less for the vast majority of players. Considering the second tick would hit harder than the first, that is an entirely reasonable kill threshold considering the beam ticks twice after a second, especially allotting a crit for one of the ticks.

Dying to multiple attacks does not justify them each as balanced individually.

And not sure if you're taking a jab at me or being facetious... You're welcome to try to annihilate me if you like... Lol

If the vast majority of players are dying at 40% health, it is not just Radiant that is killing them. I'm sorry, but we are just going to have to disagree here on why they are dying.

As for the "annhialate you" part, it's just an attempt to lighten the mood. But I am happy to add you to my "on farm" list, especially the VIP list where I take you from full health with one beam from 80 yards away.

VIP list pls!

FENGRUSH · July 2016

Did they fix the insta tick on this skill or people still fighting about other bs in here?

Cinnamon_Spider · July 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Did they fix the insta tick on this skill or people still fighting about other bs in here?

All kind of bs going on in here.

Mureel · July 2016

Nifty2g wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

Oh fuxxake. Lol. L2P

you say L2P but really, it's the ones sitting in the back hitting 1 button for their day in Cyrodill. Those are the ones who need to L2P and stop with terrible game play.

DKsUnite wrote: »

just make it 15m like the NB execute.... if they wanna hit me for 15k then i want them to be next to me

I also agree

I never do this (just FYI never pvp on my templar anymore and when, I healed anyway) - and yes, they and that sucks.

Still, I do think that banging on and on about it is just pointless.

(I KNOW you know how to play, dude. :-) )

I just think *Meh who cares* Adapt or Move On.

No point in another 20 pages of blahblah about this.

RinaldoGandolphi · July 2016

Im against any changes to Radiant Destruction including a range nerf for the following reasons:

To disclose i main a Magic Sorc and a Stamina DK, but i do have a magic Templar in VR16 gear with a lot of playtime on that i just don't have the time to gear or invest in

#1. Right now, Gap Closers are stupid OP and have been for over a year. They have way to far of a range/travel distance and do far too much damage for something that is supposed to be a utility skill (closing distance) there are very few skills that out range these gap closers(Radiant Destruction, Crystal Frag, and Snipe being the most popular) This leads to point #2

#2 Melee Magic and Stamina DPS is far more hard hitting then their ranged counter parts. Compare Force Pulse to Molten Whip and Wrecking Blow to Snipe to see where im going with this. Sure, Crystal Frags can hit hard on an instant proc, buts its tied to an RNG chance of spamming other skills, Snipe has a cast time of 1.1 secs, and all magic ranged projectiles can be countered by Defensive Stance and Dragon Scales, and Ranged Stamina Attacks can be counterted by Dragon Scales and Total Dark.

What many fail to address is "that Jesus Beaming Templar" will get absolutely destroyed by any Magic or Stamina Melee Build that gets in melee range of him....and with the OP spammable nature of gap closers, any Magic Templar that isn't a zergling will get owned in most cases relying on Radiant. No different then the Snipe spamming Nightblades will get owned if any Magic or Stamina Melee DPS build gets in close with pressure.

Radiant Destruction will be useless if you nerf the range on it...Templars have ZERO class skills that give them Major Evasion, Major Expedition....they are every bit as immobile as Magicka DK are, the only thing that keeps them from being terrible as Magic DK in open world PVP is they have a good heal and a great purge, if they didn't have that and you nerf Jesus Beam the class will be in the trash heap.

Radiant Destruction right now is about 10% less damage then most melee stam and magic melee attacks over the channel time of the beam...In most cases, you can dish out 3 Surprise Attacks in the time it takes to channel that beam and in cases where the target has more then 40% health those Surprise Attacks will do more damage, In most cases, Pyromancer Destro Staff Spell Damage focused DK can spam 3 Molten Whips in that time that will do more damage to targets over 40% health then Radiant will over its channel.

I don't see this "toxic issue" 99% of the time you die to RD you would have died anyway, big deal. If you nerf the range, folks will just pick something else....i have hit folks for over 24k with a Power Overload Attacks this patch, if built for it you can hit nearly 30k Empowered Frags on someone, see QAM most recent video, his entire build is focused on 2 hit killing you with Curse + Empowered Frags with High Max Magic...that hits way harder then Radiant Destruction and can also be done behind a zerg meatshield.

Radiant Destruction is no more toxic then anything else at this point, i'd rather have Blinding Flashes back, but oh well...:(

FENGRUSH · July 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Im against any changes to Radiant Destruction including a range nerf for the following reasons:

To disclose i main a Magic Sorc and a Stamina DK, but i do have a magic Templar in VR16 gear with a lot of playtime on that i just don't have the time to gear or invest in

#1. Right now, Gap Closers are stupid OP and have been for over a year. They have way to far of a range/travel distance and do far too much damage for something that is supposed to be a utility skill (closing distance) there are very few skills that out range these gap closers(Radiant Destruction, Crystal Frag, and Snipe being the most popular) This leads to point #2

#2 Melee Magic and Stamina DPS is far more hard hitting then their ranged counter parts. Compare Force Pulse to Molten Whip and Wrecking Blow to Snipe to see where im going with this. Sure, Crystal Frags can hit hard on an instant proc, buts its tied to an RNG chance of spamming other skills, Snipe has a cast time of 1.1 secs, and all magic ranged projectiles can be countered by Defensive Stance and Dragon Scales, and Ranged Stamina Attacks can be counterted by Dragon Scales and Total Dark.

What many fail to address is "that Jesus Beaming Templar" will get absolutely destroyed by any Magic or Stamina Melee Build that gets in melee range of him....and with the OP spammable nature of gap closers, any Magic Templar that isn't a zergling will get owned in most cases relying on Radiant. No different then the Snipe spamming Nightblades will get owned if any Magic or Stamina Melee DPS build gets in close with pressure.

Radiant Destruction will be useless if you nerf the range on it...Templars have ZERO class skills that give them Major Evasion, Major Expedition....they are every bit as immobile as Magicka DK are, the only thing that keeps them from being terrible as Magic DK in open world PVP is they have a good heal and a great purge, if they didn't have that and you nerf Jesus Beam the class will be in the trash heap.

Radiant Destruction right now is about 10% less damage then most melee stam and magic melee attacks over the channel time of the beam...In most cases, you can dish out 3 Surprise Attacks in the time it takes to channel that beam and in cases where the target has more then 40% health those Surprise Attacks will do more damage, In most cases, Pyromancer Destro Staff Spell Damage focused DK can spam 3 Molten Whips in that time that will do more damage to targets over 40% health then Radiant will over its channel.

I don't see this "toxic issue" 99% of the time you die to RD you would have died anyway, big deal. If you nerf the range, folks will just pick something else....i have hit folks for over 24k with a Power Overload Attacks this patch, if built for it you can hit nearly 30k Empowered Frags on someone, see QAM most recent video, his entire build is focused on 2 hit killing you with Curse + Empowered Frags with High Max Magic...that hits way harder then Radiant Destruction and can also be done behind a zerg meatshield.

Radiant Destruction is no more toxic then anything else at this point, i'd rather have Blinding Flashes back, but oh well...:(

Magplars are not the most vulnerable targets at all, especially to melee. They are often the hardest to get through. 2 malubeth, 5 heavy.. take your pick of sustain/survival.. all are good.. and then run 5 pc counter part of survival/sustain to complement. This could be jags and reactive or something more in one direction or another. Ultimately, any melee dps is gonna be hitting that guy for awhile. It's often the worst target to kill outside of dk tanks which go out of their way to do nothing in the fight.

Magplars are still able to heal others and beam if not addressed. Even with that much survival packed in, the beam is a constant and real threat. That's a problem.

RinaldoGandolphi · July 2016

I can see your point @FENGRUSH

Your right Maulbeth + Reactive/Kags is a problem as well, but if they actually fix Malabeth you would find these Beam Templars would be far easier to kill then they are right now.

In the end i'd rather they fix the bugged Maulabeth set first, and then see how things play it. I got a feeling those Beam plars become significantly easier to kill when they don;t have these bugged sets propping them up, which is fair trade on the hard hitting but squishy balance.

In the end though, its really sad that such unbalanced sets like Malabeth have bene allowed to be broken for so long. I have seen it bug for some pretty ridiculous heals and that combined with Beam plars is a bit unbalanced, i'll give you that.

FENGRUSH · July 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

I can see your point @FENGRUSH

Your right Maulbeth + Reactive/Kags is a problem as well, but if they actually fix Malabeth you would find these Beam Templars would be far easier to kill then they are right now.

In the end i'd rather they fix the bugged Maulabeth set first, and then see how things play it. I got a feeling those Beam plars become significantly easier to kill when they don;t have these bugged sets propping them up, which is fair trade on the hard hitting but squishy balance.

In the end though, its really sad that such unbalanced sets like Malabeth have bene allowed to be broken for so long. I have seen it bug for some pretty ridiculous heals and that combined with Beam plars is a bit unbalanced, i'll give you that.

Easier, yes. Not easy though. Comparatively speaking still amongst the hardest to kill while providing great support and utility. I like their kit, it's balanced well on all fronts. Their sustain:effectiveness is an issue. Less their heals and more their ability to be a force to so many near or below 50% in such a short time while investing so little in it. Tanky dk, sorc, nb.. will not provide that level of threat and cant. The way this execute functions is different, and that's fine.. but players need time to react. If you can't give some time on the front end, Zos will end up destroying the skills numbers on raw damage.

Best to get on board with a reasonable outlook or the skill gets RIPd.