3 human, 3 elf and 3 other

seanvwolf · July 2016

Tryxus wrote: »

Not quite

uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Bretons:_Mongrels_or_Paragons%3F

In order to occupy the High Rock province, the Bretons had apparently distanced themselves from everything elven. It's true that that some families, the noble ones, have move elven blood within them that others. However, the Bretons themselves have become much more Man than Mer, and they consider themselves a race of men.

And also, in Skyrim, Guards don't say anything about Bretons. Then again, I rarely get caught stealing...

That lore entry also finishes by stating:
"The passionate race of Bretons embodies the strengths of both Men and Mer—as well as their flaws."
And that they are both mongrels and paragons.

Here's a lore entry for you too.

"The Bretons, in ten generations of Elven intermingling and slavery, had become scarcely recognizable as humans."

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/High_Rock

The external characteristics of man are more present, but internally, the Direnni blood affected them more. This meant that by the time of ten generations of Nedes needed interbreeding took on a half-elf look. That's a tenth-generation 9.09% nede, 90.91% mer admixture before the physical elven characteristics were witnessed and documented in Khosey's account.

The Bretons weren't 50% men when they decided to distance themselves from their elven masters. They were mostly elves.

Externally they may share more with Nedic and Atmorran descendants now, but clearly, mentally, they are more elf than man.

AugustoCP · July 2016

Just clearing up a bunch of lore mistakes I've seen in this thread:

Daggerfall Covenant:
Orcs/Orsimer/Pariah Elves - Orcs are, despite their own use of the word in a derogatory way, elves. They are the descendants of those who followed Trinimac, and were affected when Trinimac was turned by Boethiah in Malacath/Mauloch

Redguard/Ra Gada - Redguards are humans, albeit unique in the sense that they come from Yokuda, and do not share an ancestry with the other human races.

Bretons/Manmer - Bretons are descendants of the Nedic human servants of the Direnni clan, who used to rule High Rock, but was too thinned out to keep control of it after the Battle of Glenumbra Moors. The Direnni sometimes intermingled with their servants, and, while bretons are not strictly half-breeds (50/50), some amount of elven blood runs through their veins, especially in noble families. Some bretons still exhibit somewhat pointy ears.

Aldmeri Dominion
High Elves/Altmer - Nothing to explain here, they're elves. If you don't know this, go read about the lore and come back to ESO when you actually know what you're doing.

Wood Elves/Bosmer - Wood Elves are the descendants of the altmer who migrated to Valenwood. They are elves, although not gifted in the manipulation of magicka like the altmer or the dunmer, or even the bretons. While not as brutish as the orcs, the bosmer make fine warriors.

Khajiit - First of all, KHAJIIT ARE NOT ELVES, FOR ***'S SAKE. The word "betmer", which is used to describe both the Argonians and the Khajiit, does not imply they are elves. The word "mer" is elven for "folk". It simply means people. "Betmer" means "beast-folk", and does not indicate kinship with the elves. ( @anitajoneb17_ESO )

Ebonheart Pact
Nords - Unlike what has already been said ( @starkerealm ) , Nords do NOT descend from the Nedic people, but rather, from the Atmoran people. Yes, they are pure humans, in case you haven't noticed.

Dark Elves/Dunmer - The Dunmer descend from the Chimer, a groups of Altmer who followed the prophet Veloth, who worshipped Daedra, unlike the Altmer. They migrated to Morrowind (Divines, couldn't they choose a worse place?) and settled there. After the battle of the Red Mountain, they were cursed by Azura, and now look the way they do.

Argonians/Saxheel - The Argonians ARE NOT ELVES either. They are betmer. Again, this doed not imply kinship with the elves. They descend (sorta, I won't get even deeper into phylogeny) from the Hist, a race of sentient trees created by Sithis (which explains their nearly exclusive worship of this deity)

Unaligned
Imperials: Imperials are the descendant of the Nedic slaves who rebeled against their Ayleid (elven) overlords in Cyrodiil, led by Saint Alessia. They have a small degree of Atmoran blood, due to the mingling of the proto-Imperials with the Nords of Skyrim. There is speculation about the origins of the Nedic people in the first place, and some think they, too, are Atmoran in origin, which might mean the Imperials are 100% Atmoran, but from 2 different migratory waves mixed together (Nedic and Nord), but this has not been proved, as is rather unlikely (The Nedic may have some Atmoran blood from pre-Ysgramor migrations, but they certainly did not come entirely from Atmora). The Imperials even have a small degree of Akaviri blood, from the Akaviri invaders who were accepted into the Empire)

And, NO, Goblins are NOT elves either. They were already in Tamriel when the Aldmer (the ancestors of the Altmer) arrived here, which technically makes them, the Khajiit, the Argonians and the Imga the true heirs of Tamriel, as they're the native sentient races of it.

Lastly, there are no "tauren" in Elder Scrolls. GTFO. If you want to suggest new races, at least know what you're talking about. Educate yourself to avoid public shaming. Possile suggestions include: Sea Elves/Maormer, Dwarves/Dwemer (unlikely, as they're extinct, with only one exception), Snow Elves/Falmer (The uncorrupted ones, that is, although there are only 2 known living* ones), the Akaviri human races (Some of them were incorporated into the Empire, it's not that unlikely), Imga (although their intellect is... well, you'd have a hard time explaining an Imga capable of casting even the most simple spell. You'd probably need to remake meshes for all armors, so, no) and lastly, the Akaviri non-human races (the least likely of them all... for both lore reasons and the possible need to rework armor meshes). Kothringi don't make sense, as it is shows in the game in the Shadowfen area that there is only one living Kothringi.

* Subject to interpretation

starkerealm · July 2016

AugustoCP wrote: »

Nords - Unlike what has already been said ( @starkerealm ) , Nords do NOT descend from the Nedic people, but rather, from the Atmoran people. Yes, they are pure humans, in case you haven't noticed.

The Nedes immigrated to Tamriel from Atmora. So, yes, the Nords are descended from the Nedic people. You can find this detailed in a lot of in-game literature.

EDIT:

Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Ed wrote:

Tradition has it that the first humans came to Tamriel from the continent of Atmora in ancient days. It was a not a single invasion but a series of them over hundreds of years, creating many different Nedic cultures, the new-arrived Atmorans always clashing with the generations that had already established themselves.

seanvwolf · July 2016

AugustoCP wrote: »

Ebonheart Pact
Nords - Unlike what has already been said ( @starkerealm ) , Nords do NOT descend from the Nedic people, but rather, from the Atmoran people. Yes, they are pure humans, in case you haven't noticed.

"They are the direct descendants of the Atmorans, who in ancient days sailed to Tamriel from the frozen continent of Atmora, and to a lesser extent of the Nedic peoples, who were human natives of Tamriel that gradually interbred with the Atmorans over the centuries."

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Nord

starkerealm · July 2016

seanvwolf wrote: »

AugustoCP wrote: »

Ebonheart Pact
Nords - Unlike what has already been said ( @starkerealm ) , Nords do NOT descend from the Nedic people, but rather, from the Atmoran people. Yes, they are pure humans, in case you haven't noticed.

"They are the direct descendants of the Atmorans, who in ancient days sailed to Tamriel from the frozen continent of Atmora, and to a lesser extent of the Nedic peoples, who were human natives of Tamriel that gradually interbred with the Atmorans over the centuries."

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Nord

Also:

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Atmora

Atmora (meaning Elder Wood in Ehlnofex) is a continent to the north of Tamriel, and tradition holds that it was from here that the first humans came to Tamriel. The name is a corrupted form of the Aldmeris title "Altmora", a designation for the northernmost landmass inhabited by mer. The ancient Nords called Atmora "the land of truth". It was the homeland of the Nedic peoples, who were the ancestors of the modern Nords, Imperials, and Bretons.

starkerealm · July 2016

AugustoCP wrote: »

Imperials: Imperials are the descendant of the Nedic slaves who rebeled against their Ayleid (elven) overlords in Cyrodiil, led by Saint Alessia. They have a small degree of Atmoran blood, due to the mingling of the proto-Imperials with the Nords of Skyrim. There is speculation about the origins of the Nedic people in the first place, and some think they, too, are Atmoran in origin, which might mean the Imperials are 100% Atmoran, but from 2 different migratory waves mixed together (Nedic and Nord), but this has not been proved. They even have a small degree of Akaviri blood, from the Akaviri invaders who were accepted into the Empire)

@AugustoCP I think I see what's tripping you up. The Nedes are a catch all term for all of the immigration waves from Atmora, this includes Ysgramor's colonization of Skyrim. The Nedic were not a single homogeneous culture or society, but a mix of many different cultures that immigrated south in the Metheric era. With the exception of the Yokudans, they're the ancestors of all of Tamriel's human races.

Forestd16b14_ESO · July 2016

I am sorry but do you even understand the lore of TES ?

uric17 · July 2016

mer is the opposite or human? in what language is the word mer?

WhiteCoatSyndrome · July 2016

And let's not forget that the Nords maintain that they came back to Skyrim.

Nords consider themselves to be the children of the sky. They call Skyrim the Throat of the World, because it is where the sky exhaled on the land and formed them.

And Ysgramor's exploits are called the 'Song of Return' not 'Song of Conquest' or something else.

@starkerealm Don't forget the Redguards' history with the Left-handed elves.

Back on topic, the Maormer are plentiful and present. Other than they've never been a player race before I don't see a reason why they couldn't be one. I'd be interested in seeing Imga, as NPCs if nothing else. But while there's an argument to be made in favor of Minotaurs being intelligent and just having had their culture destroyed, I don't see them being a player race because the devs like to make all the gear you find usable for everyone, which would be difficult to do with that head.

starkerealm · July 2016

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

@starkerealm Don't forget the Redguards' history with the Left-handed elves.

I haven't. It's just the Redguards don't hold the same kind of animosity towards all things Elven the way the Nords do.

seanvwolf · July 2016

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

seanvwolf wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Men: Breton, Imperial, Redguard, Nord
Halfling : breton
Mer: Altmer, Dunmer, Bosmer, Orsimer
Betmer: Khajiit, Argonian

fixed it for you

Bretons are not halflings...
Halfling is not used for half-breeds as far as I know, halflings are small people, like hobbits.

Also, the elven blood is so diluted that they are mostly human, not even a half-breed.

English is not my native language, sry for the vocabulary mistake and thx for correcting it.

As to the rest, I disagree : bretons are not 100% men nor 100% mer, they're a mix. Lore wise. That's what I like in them ;-)

You aren't wrong, @anitajoneb17_ESO ... halfling is used for half blood elfmen. It was also used as a perjorative for Hobbits in Tolkein's work, but halfling does mean half-elf.

There are no halflings in TES lore. In D&D a halfling is basically a hobbit. Show me where halfling is used for half-breeds apart from forum posts where people got it confused.

Shannara series of fantasy books refer to half-elf half-man progeny as halflings.

AugustoCP · July 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

AugustoCP wrote: »

Nords - Unlike what has already been said ( @starkerealm ) , Nords do NOT descend from the Nedic people, but rather, from the Atmoran people. Yes, they are pure humans, in case you haven't noticed.

The Nedes immigrated to Tamriel from Atmora. So, yes, the Nords are descended from the Nedic people. You can find this detailed in a lot of in-game literature.

EDIT:

Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Ed wrote:

Tradition has it that the first humans came to Tamriel from the continent of Atmora in ancient days. It was a not a single invasion but a series of them over hundreds of years, creating many different Nedic cultures, the new-arrived Atmorans always clashing with the generations that had already established themselves.

The Nords do not descend from the Nedes. They came to Skyrim, and then mingled with the already existant Nedic people, but they are descendants of the Atmoran people, with but a hint of Nede blood.

It was, indeed, a series of invasions over hudnreds of years, but the Nedic people PRECEDE the Atmoran invasion waves to Skyrim. And, might I add (and I say this with no intention of offending, really), but the Pocket Guide to the Empire is hardly a trustworthy source.

So, no, the Nedes do not (or at least most of them, although there has been some mingling) descend from Atmorans, or at least not from the Invasion wave led by Ysgramor, or the subsequent ones: They are far older than that. No, we don't really know their origins, and Atmora might explain some of it, but they might even be native to Tamriel (Wandering Ehlnofey who remained in Tamriel, maybe?)

seanvwolf wrote: »

AugustoCP wrote: »

Ebonheart Pact
Nords - Unlike what has already been said ( @starkerealm ) , Nords do NOT descend from the Nedic people, but rather, from the Atmoran people. Yes, they are pure humans, in case you haven't noticed.

"They are the direct descendants of the Atmorans, who in ancient days sailed to Tamriel from the frozen continent of Atmora, and to a lesser extent of the Nedic peoples, who were human natives of Tamriel that gradually interbred with the Atmorans over the centuries."

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Nord

Yes, I think we can agree on this. Nords aren't Atmorans, they are Nords: Some essential change must have happened to the Atmoran migrants to justify their change in identity, that being the mingling with the Nedes. And, once more, I say this with no intention to offend, but you're contradicting yourself. You claim the invasion waves from Atmora originated the Nedes, and yet you say the Nords are the result of the interbreeding of Atmorans and Nedes? The very quote you made states that the Nedes are natives of Tamriel.

starkerealm wrote: »

Also:

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Atmora

Atmora (meaning Elder Wood in Ehlnofex) is a continent to the north of Tamriel, and tradition holds that it was from here that the first humans came to Tamriel. The name is a corrupted form of the Aldmeris title "Altmora", a designation for the northernmost landmass inhabited by mer. The ancient Nords called Atmora "the land of truth". It was the homeland of the Nedic peoples, who were the ancestors of the modern Nords, Imperials, and Bretons.

I'm sorry, but UESP has a lot of mistakes in it. This quote you made goes against the others you made yourself. The Nedic people do NOT come from Atmora, although early migrations from Atmora (those even earlier than Ysgramor's) may have been incorporated into the already existant Nedic people. The Elder Scrolls wikia, which you quoted earlier, is far more reliable.

starkerealm wrote: »

AugustoCP wrote: »

Imperials: Imperials are the descendant of the Nedic slaves who rebeled against their Ayleid (elven) overlords in Cyrodiil, led by Saint Alessia. They have a small degree of Atmoran blood, due to the mingling of the proto-Imperials with the Nords of Skyrim. There is speculation about the origins of the Nedic people in the first place, and some think they, too, are Atmoran in origin, which might mean the Imperials are 100% Atmoran, but from 2 different migratory waves mixed together (Nedic and Nord), but this has not been proved. They even have a small degree of Akaviri blood, from the Akaviri invaders who were accepted into the Empire)

@AugustoCP I think I see what's tripping you up. The Nedes are a catch all term for all of the immigration waves from Atmora, this includes Ysgramor's colonization of Skyrim. The Nedic were not a single homogeneous culture or society, but a mix of many different cultures that immigrated south in the Metheric era. With the exception of the Yokudans, they're the ancestors of all of Tamriel's human races.

I'm sorry, but, no. Nedic does not include Ysgramor's invasion waves. The Nedic were a pre existant human groups (and, yes, you are right, they were by no means homogeneous).

Also, in the quote you made of me, I say the Nedic may be 100% Atmoran, I was a bit distracted when I wrote that, please disregard it. I went full potato.

AugustoCP · July 2016

uric17 wrote: »

mer is the opposite or human? in what language is the word mer?

Elven language.

WhiteCoatSyndrome wrote: »

And let's not forget that the Nords maintain that they came back to Skyrim.

Nords consider themselves to be the children of the sky. They call Skyrim the Throat of the World, because it is where the sky exhaled on the land and formed them.

And Ysgramor's exploits are called the 'Song of Return' not 'Song of Conquest' or something else.

@starkerealm Don't forget the Redguards' history with the Left-handed elves.

Back on topic, the Maormer are plentiful and present. Other than they've never been a player race before I don't see a reason why they couldn't be one. I'd be interested in seeing Imga, as NPCs if nothing else. But while there's an argument to be made in favor of Minotaurs being intelligent and just having had their culture destroyed, I don't see them being a player race because the devs like to make all the gear you find usable for everyone, which would be difficult to do with that head.

@WhiteCoatSyndrome
The reason for that is because Ysgramor and the Atmorans came to Skyrim, settled, but were then killed by the Snow Elves in the Night of Tears. Only Ysgramor and his sons escaped. He went back to Atmora, raised an army, returned to Skyrim and wiped out the Snow Elves. That's why it's called "Songs of Return". They do not believe themselves native to Skyrim.

And, yes the Redguards do have a lot of story with the left handed elves, and then with the elves they met in Tamriel, but their hatred for elvenkind seems far smaller than that of Nords.

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

I am sorry but do you even understand the lore of TES ?

...who are you even talking to?

AugustoCP · July 2016

seanvwolf wrote: »

Shannara series of fantasy books refer to half-elf half-man progeny as halflings.

Halfling is a informal, often derogatory term. I give up on trying to give it a clear definition

starkerealm · July 2016

AugustoCP wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

I am sorry but do you even understand the lore of TES ?

...who are you even talking to?

Uric, I suspect.

cyclonus11 · July 2016

There are 4 man, 4 mer, and 2 beast. Orcs are NOT a beast race. Khajiit are loosely mer - not enough so for Hermaeus Mora to send you after their blood.

josefcifkaeb17_ESO · July 2016

seanvwolf wrote: »

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

seanvwolf wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Men: Breton, Imperial, Redguard, Nord
Halfling : breton
Mer: Altmer, Dunmer, Bosmer, Orsimer
Betmer: Khajiit, Argonian

fixed it for you

Bretons are not halflings...
Halfling is not used for half-breeds as far as I know, halflings are small people, like hobbits.

Also, the elven blood is so diluted that they are mostly human, not even a half-breed.

English is not my native language, sry for the vocabulary mistake and thx for correcting it.

As to the rest, I disagree : bretons are not 100% men nor 100% mer, they're a mix. Lore wise. That's what I like in them ;-)

You aren't wrong, @anitajoneb17_ESO ... halfling is used for half blood elfmen. It was also used as a perjorative for Hobbits in Tolkein's work, but halfling does mean half-elf.

There are no halflings in TES lore. In D&D a halfling is basically a hobbit. Show me where halfling is used for half-breeds apart from forum posts where people got it confused.

Shannara series of fantasy books refer to half-elf half-man progeny as halflings.

Yea, a knockoff of Tolkien's works is not a good example. Terry Brooks admitted that himself... -_- No wonder he got the terminology wrong.

starkerealm · July 2016

AugustoCP wrote: »

Yes, I think we can agree on this. Nords aren't Atmorans, they are Nords...

*facepalms*

AugustoCP wrote: »

I went full potato.

Yes, you certainly did.

Atmoran is a descriptor, like Tamerillic, not a distinct culture in its own right. Atmora is one of the continents on Nirn. Tamriel, and Akavir are other examples.

There is absolutely no question the Nords originated on Atmora. None. And as a result are absolutely, without question, Atmoran.

The Nedes, or Nedic people, are believed to have emigrated from Atmora. There's a little bit of question regarding this, because it apparently began fairly early in the Metheric era. As if this isn't confusing enough, by the late Metheric era there was actually a distinct Nedic culture in Tamriel, distinct from all of the surviving modern cultures that survived into the second era.

The problem is, Nedic is used as a catch all term for the people that came from Atmora, (including the Nords and Cyrods) and a specific tribal culture that thrived along the northern coast of Tamriel into the late Metheric era. When you dig into the in-game lit, these terms are used not-quite interchangeably, and it can get pretty confusing if you're just coming into the material or don't understand it.

To be fair, I don't think that's deliberate, it's far more likely that this is just sloppiness on the part of the writers, but there it is.

AugustoCP wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Also:

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Atmora

Atmora (meaning Elder Wood in Ehlnofex) is a continent to the north of Tamriel, and tradition holds that it was from here that the first humans came to Tamriel. The name is a corrupted form of the Aldmeris title "Altmora", a designation for the northernmost landmass inhabited by mer. The ancient Nords called Atmora "the land of truth". It was the homeland of the Nedic peoples, who were the ancestors of the modern Nords, Imperials, and Bretons.

I'm sorry, but UESP has a lot of mistakes in it. This quote you made goes against the others you made yourself. The Nedic people do NOT come from Atmora, although early migrations from Atmora (those even earlier than Ysgramor's) may have been incorporated into the already existant Nedic people. The Elder Scrolls wikia, which you quoted earlier, is far more reliable.

In this case, the actual article is pretty clearly cited to in-game lit. If you want, I can cough up all of the examples on The Imperial Library, but it'd be overkill.

starkerealm · July 2016

cyclonus11 wrote: »

There are 4 man, 4 mer, and 2 beast. Orcs are NOT a beast race. Khajiit are loosely mer - not enough so for Hermaeus Mora to send you after their blood.

The Khajiit aren't actually a mer race, in spite of the Betmer name. They're actually one of the indigenous Tamerillic races, while none of the elves or human races are.

AugustoCP · July 2016

cyclonus11 wrote: »

There are 4 man, 4 mer, and 2 beast. Orcs are NOT a beast race. Khajiit are loosely mer - not enough so for Hermaeus Mora to send you after their blood.

Khajiit. Are. Not. Elves.

Tryxus · July 2016

seanvwolf wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Not quite

uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Bretons:_Mongrels_or_Paragons%3F

In order to occupy the High Rock province, the Bretons had apparently distanced themselves from everything elven. It's true that that some families, the noble ones, have move elven blood within them that others. However, the Bretons themselves have become much more Man than Mer, and they consider themselves a race of men.

And also, in Skyrim, Guards don't say anything about Bretons. Then again, I rarely get caught stealing...

That lore entry also finishes by stating:
"The passionate race of Bretons embodies the strengths of both Men and Mer—as well as their flaws."
And that they are both mongrels and paragons.

Here's a lore entry for you too.

"The Bretons, in ten generations of Elven intermingling and slavery, had become scarcely recognizable as humans."

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_1st_Edition/High_Rock

The external characteristics of man are more present, but internally, the Direnni blood affected them more. This meant that by the time of ten generations of Nedes needed interbreeding took on a half-elf look. That's a tenth-generation 9.09% nede, 90.91% mer admixture before the physical elven characteristics were witnessed and documented in Khosey's account.

The Bretons weren't 50% men when they decided to distance themselves from their elven masters. They were mostly elves.

Externally they may share more with Nedic and Atmorran descendants now, but clearly, mentally, they are more elf than man.

By the time of ten generations... which is centuries, even millenia, before the Bretons took over power in High Rock from the Direnni. So the elven blood has already thinned out a bit between then and with the Bretons removing all elven aspects from their lives, that also caused elven blood to dillute

Not to mention that Bretons also have more in common with the races of Men than with Mer: looks, lifespan,... There are still traces of their elvish ancestry with them but during the time the games take place they are more Man than Mer

So I think it's the other way around: more like 80% Human, 20% Elf (that 99%/1% was an exaggeration on my part

)

Cazzy · July 2016

So the Khajiit are elves and the Dwemer are actually Orcs. Got it.

AugustoCP · July 2016

starkerealm wrote: »

AugustoCP wrote: »

Yes, I think we can agree on this. Nords aren't Atmorans, they are Nords...

*facepalms*

AugustoCP wrote: »

I went full potato.

Yes, you certainly did.

Atmoran is a descriptor, like Tamerillic, not a distinct culture in its own right. Atmora is one of the continents on Nirn. Tamriel, and Akavir are other examples.

There is absolutely no question the Nords originated on Atmora. None. And as a result are absolutely, without question, Atmoran.

The Nedes, or Nedic people, are believed to have emigrated from Atmora. There's a little bit of question regarding this, because it apparently began fairly early in the Metheric era. As if this isn't confusing enough, by the late Metheric era there was actually a distinct Nedic culture in Tamriel, distinct from all of the surviving modern cultures that survived into the second era.

The problem is, Nedic is used as a catch all term for the people that came from Atmora, (including the Nords and Cyrods) and a specific tribal culture that thrived along the northern coast of Tamriel into the late Metheric era. When you dig into the in-game lit, these terms are used not-quite interchangeably, and it can get pretty confusing if you're just coming into the material or don't understand it.

To be fair, I don't think that's deliberate, it's far more likely that this is just sloppiness on the part of the writers, but there it is.

AugustoCP wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Also:

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Atmora

Atmora (meaning Elder Wood in Ehlnofex) is a continent to the north of Tamriel, and tradition holds that it was from here that the first humans came to Tamriel. The name is a corrupted form of the Aldmeris title "Altmora", a designation for the northernmost landmass inhabited by mer. The ancient Nords called Atmora "the land of truth". It was the homeland of the Nedic peoples, who were the ancestors of the modern Nords, Imperials, and Bretons.

I'm sorry, but UESP has a lot of mistakes in it. This quote you made goes against the others you made yourself. The Nedic people do NOT come from Atmora, although early migrations from Atmora (those even earlier than Ysgramor's) may have been incorporated into the already existant Nedic people. The Elder Scrolls wikia, which you quoted earlier, is far more reliable.

In this case, the actual article is pretty clearly cited to in-game lit. If you want, I can cough up all of the examples on The Imperial Library, but it'd be overkill.

I understand very well that Atmora is a continent. But it was inhabited by the Atmorans, and they did have a culture of their own, which they brought with them when they came to Skyrim. A clear evidence of it is their worship of the totemic Bear, Wolf, Eagle, Dragon... and so on.

And, no, the Nords are NOT Atmoran. Please understand, I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm simply using a figure of speech. What I meant is, the Nords and the Atmorans are different people, with the Atmorans being changed by their lives in Skyrim and the mingling with Nedics into the Nords. In other words, the Atmorans first came to Skyrim, then met the Nedics, and that turned them into Nords. When I say Nords are not Atmoran, I don't mean they don't originate from there, I mean that Nords and the Atmoran RACE are not the same thing, as the Atmorans underwent some mostly cultural changes after arriving in Skyrim, and became the Nords. Think of Atmorans as Proto-Nords.

And, I'm sorry, but you're HEAVILY understating the debate on the origins of the Nedic people. It's almost certain that they did not come from Atmora, with only a few exceptions, which were incorporated into the ALREADY EXISTING Nedic people.

And, just because something is cited in the game, doesn't mean it is right. You have to read it, and question it. The Elder Scrolls series is famous for depicting prejudice and bias, almost everything you read in-game has a huge amount of bias into it. You have to read everything you can, with different point of views, and then try to understand the past by reading critically and then merging two different stories. Pointing out books from the Imperial Library (which I, too, read often, thank you very much) would not prove anything, as these books are inherently biased. That doesn't mean they are lies, but you can't blindly believe everything in them.

Lastly, yes, the Cyrods were one specific tribe that is included in the general Nedic term. But "Nedic" simply does not include the Nords.

starkerealm · July 2016

Tryxus wrote: »

By the time of ten generations... which is centuries, even millenia, before the Bretons took over power in High Rock from the Direnni...

Somewhere between 160 and 200 years, depending on the average Breton lifespan.

seanvwolf · July 2016

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

seanvwolf wrote: »

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

seanvwolf wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

josefcifkaeb17_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Men: Breton, Imperial, Redguard, Nord
Halfling : breton
Mer: Altmer, Dunmer, Bosmer, Orsimer
Betmer: Khajiit, Argonian

fixed it for you

Bretons are not halflings...
Halfling is not used for half-breeds as far as I know, halflings are small people, like hobbits.

Also, the elven blood is so diluted that they are mostly human, not even a half-breed.

English is not my native language, sry for the vocabulary mistake and thx for correcting it.

As to the rest, I disagree : bretons are not 100% men nor 100% mer, they're a mix. Lore wise. That's what I like in them ;-)

You aren't wrong, @anitajoneb17_ESO ... halfling is used for half blood elfmen. It was also used as a perjorative for Hobbits in Tolkein's work, but halfling does mean half-elf.

There are no halflings in TES lore. In D&D a halfling is basically a hobbit. Show me where halfling is used for half-breeds apart from forum posts where people got it confused.

Shannara series of fantasy books refer to half-elf half-man progeny as halflings.

Yea, a knockoff of Tolkien's works is not a good example. Terry Brooks admitted that himself... -_- No wonder he got the terminology wrong.

Lyonesse series uses halfling as well, to describe earthly+magical beings, like half-elves would be called.

You asked for an example in literature, and I gave you one. There are others. D&D is derivative of Tolkein, so by your statement, you shouldn't consider all the other times halfling was used in derivatives of Tolkein's or their own derivative works.

There's a book called Halflings which is about half-man half-angels.

Halflings in D&D's third edition are as far a departure you can get from Tolkein's hobbits that they are simply diminutive humans... and not necessarily half the size.

indeed this is an illustration of Lidda the Halfling

She's short, has high cheek bones, high brows and pointed ears... she's far closer to Bretons contemporary in ESO than Tolkein's Hobbits.

Halfling can be used to describe Breton, I don't fault her for using it.

snorlockb16_ESO · July 2016

I'm not arguing with TES lore, but 2 things...

"Halfling" is an English word coming from Scottish. It predates Tolkien by at least a couple centuries. Tolkien came up with the term "Hobbit" drawing from the terms "Hob" and "Hobgoblin". Other fantasy writers as well as D&D etc. avoided using the word "Hobbit" so as to avoid direct connection with Tolkien. "Halfling" has become a generic fantasy term that has any number of definitions along with its original Scottish meaning of a teenager (half boy, half man.)

As far as genetics go, and again not to argue with actual lore, if a people start out as an 80/20 mix of two races, and they primarily mate amongst themselves, they will remain 80/20. The race doesn't dilute because their culture changes or simply with time. The only reason that the Elven genetics would dilute would be if only a few Bretons ever mated with Elves in the first place. The majority with no Elven blood would mix with the few that had intermarried. My understanding is that the Bretons have all descended from servants of the elves (Derani I think) and there wouldn't have been much dilution over time since they all had some Elven blood to start out once the Derani were gone.

In our world Bretons have Celtic blood and in our "lore" they had a mix of our mythical Elves' blood in them.

AugustoCP · July 2016

snorlockb16_ESO wrote: »

I'm not arguing with TES lore, but 2 things...

"Halfling" is an English word coming from Scottish. It predates Tolkien by at least a couple centuries. Tolkien came up with the term "Hobbit" drawing from the terms "Hob" and "Hobgoblin". Other fantasy writers as well as D&D etc. avoided using the word "Hobbit" so as to avoid direct connection with Tolkien. "Halfling" has become a generic fantasy term that has any number of definitions along with its original Scottish meaning of a teenager.

As far as genetics go, and again not to argue with actual lore, if a people start out as an 80/20 mix of two races, and they primarily mate amongst themselves, they will remain 80/20. The race doesn't dilute because their culture changes or simply with time. The only reason that the Elven genetics would dilute would be if only a few Bretons ever mated with Elves in the first place. The majority with no Elven blood would mix with the few that had intermarried. My understanding is that the Bretons have all descended from servants of the elves (Derani I think) and there wouldn't have been much dilution over time since they all had some Elven blood to start out.

In our world Bretons have Celtic blood and in our "lore" they had a mix of our mythical Elves' blood in them.

Indeed, what happened is exactly what you mentioned in the "if only" part. Only a few (very few) human/elf individuals existed, and their mingling with the general populace (which were pure humans) diluted their elven blood. However, once elves genes are pretty much evenly spread, their ocurrence wouldn't decrease any further, which is the current state of things.

Also, the elven clan who were served by the bretons is called Direnni (just saying)

Bad_Company · July 2016

I want to play Batman in ESO.
With RP elements.
Molag Bal needs to be the Joker.
I also want korean-mmo-like weapons and skills.
And the graphics from WoW.
Please, change your game and build it from scratch following only my desires as guide-lines.
Lore must be ignored for variety's sake.

Oh, I forgot one thing: please, add gender change. And superhero change. So I can play female Batman or male Wonder Woman.

starkerealm · July 2016

AugustoCP wrote: »

And, I'm sorry, but you're HEAVILY understating the debate on the origins of the Nedic people. It's almost certain that they did not come from Atmora, with only a few exceptions, which were incorporated into the ALREADY EXISTING Nedic people.

Not really. There is a lot of conflicting information, and to an extent, this is a deliberate element of the way lore is presented in the franchise as a whole.

The issue with processing information for the setting... and actual scholarly analysis in the real world for that matter, is, eventually you need to evaluate information and prioritize based on perceived trustworthiness of the source.

The Pocket Guide has its issues, but for an Imperial sanctioned document it actually undermines the Imperial claim to cyrodiil, with it's discussion on the believed origins of human races on Tamriel. It's also intended to be read as a basic primer for the setting, which means if the developers were going to insert false and misleading information into the material, this would be the worst place to do it. It doesn't mean it's unimpeachable, there are errors, and biases especially with the first edition of the guide, but it's still a critical document to start from.

And, yeah, I was citing from the Third Edition Pocket Guide earlier. I've actually got the physical copy from the Oblivion CE around here somewhere. Which, in retrospect, fits with what we see in ESO far better than you'd expect for something that was written a decade before the game released, and actually smooths over a lot of the perceived continuity issues between ESO and Skyrim, particularly in relation to the Dominion.

Cazzy · July 2016

Bad_Company wrote: »

I want to play Batman in ESO.
With RP elements.
Molag Bal needs to be the Joker.
I also want korean-mmo-like weapons and skills.
And the graphics from WoW.
Please, change your game and build it from scratch following only my desires as guide-lines.
Lore must be ignored for variety's sake.

Oh, I forgot one thing: please, add gender change. And superhero change. So I can play female Batman or male Wonder Woman.

My Batman lore knowledge is activating... *little happy rage face*