Dungeons are laughably easy now.. Example video in OP

Draxys · July 2016

Honestly, the majority of players in this game need it to be laughably easy because they have no clue what they're doing. The unfortunate thing is that zos has to keep them in mind too. I've never done it, but I'm sure it's hard to make content both accessible to all and challenging to skilled/veteran players.

Phinix1 · July 2016

OP:

Try running with a pug.

Phinix1 · July 2016

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@Lysette
Well there's a difference between 5% who will stay and the 95% who will drop the game for a couple months. Let's say you own a restaurant and 95% of your customers are coming to your restaurant because it's conveniently closer to the subway and they like the menu of items you serve; now let's say another store opens up a bit closer (400 meters) to the subway. 95% of those customers choose to try out that restaurant for a couple months while the 5% stay loyal to that restaurant they kept going to.

My question to you is which would you try to appease more the 5% that stays or the 95% that eventually leaves?

I don't think there is any data to support the assumption that the only players loyal to ESO are the hardcores.

Plenty of people are EXTREMELY loyal to TES but don't want to be excluded from content for not being "elite."

I personally have very little trouble with the content unless running with fire-stander pugs, but this analogy seems flawed. Besides, there is already challenge content available that rewards by far the best gear in the game.

Trials, and more specifically, vMSA. The later, maybe 10% of the community will EVER complete.

Apocalypse1981 · July 2016

@Phinix1 if my memory serves me well he ran it with me and we were a PUG.

Phinix1 · July 2016

Apocalypse1981 wrote: »

@Phinix1 if my memory serves me well he ran it with me and we were a PUG.

Hey, every week someone wins the lottery!

Apocalypse1981 · July 2016

@Phinix1 the time i got the under 30 min achievment it was with a pug, today im pretty sure we did it under 30 mins too. Also with a pug we had nobody die.

On the other hand i failed miserably lots of times doing this dungeon with pugs too.

Ppl exaggerate just to make a point.

Lysette · July 2016

Draxys wrote: »

Honestly, the majority of players in this game need it to be laughably easy because they have no clue what they're doing. The unfortunate thing is that zos has to keep them in mind too. I've never done it, but I'm sure it's hard to make content both accessible to all and challenging to skilled/veteran players.

The problem is that RPG player and competitive player have totally different expectations and reasons why they play. For example competitive player want all balanced, while roleplayer set on diversity and do not appreciate if it is too equalized. They do not seek balance but an interesting to play character - what is not given with a god-like character, in the contrary, and average-skilled character with some talents and some flaws is by far more interesting to play for them. Min/maxing is not their goal, they will rather go for hybrid builds and this has an effect on how they experience difficulty in the game. They do as well spend more points on non-competitive things like crafting and other non-combat skills.

This is why the perception of difficulty is so different between those who are in RPG in comparison to those into competitive gameplay. The RPG folks might not even be interested to ever appear on any of the leader boards, even if they could, that is not their primary goal - but instead exploration, enjoying the story-telling in the game, reading lore books, gathering materials and crafting and do some quests and simply have a good time - that is in no way competitive nor is is meant to be that.

Ep1kMalware · July 2016

Phinix1 wrote: »

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@Lysette
Well there's a difference between 5% who will stay and the 95% who will drop the game for a couple months. Let's say you own a restaurant and 95% of your customers are coming to your restaurant because it's conveniently closer to the subway and they like the menu of items you serve; now let's say another store opens up a bit closer (400 meters) to the subway. 95% of those customers choose to try out that restaurant for a couple months while the 5% stay loyal to that restaurant they kept going to.

My question to you is which would you try to appease more the 5% that stays or the 95% that eventually leaves?

I don't think there is any data to support the assumption that the only players loyal to ESO are the hardcores.

Plenty of people are EXTREMELY loyal to TES but don't want to be excluded from content for not being "elite."

I personally have very little trouble with the content unless running with fire-stander pugs, but this analogy seems flawed. Besides, there is already challenge content available that rewards by far the best gear in the game.

Trials, and more specifically, vMSA. The later, maybe 10% of the community will EVER complete.

uhm no. normal trials have no mechanics and j]inflict almost no damage at all, it is wayrest sewers level easy/ crap groups or inexperienced players will have onlt minor issues completing nso, with perhaps the onlt disadvantage is it taking longer.

atm more people are farming nso than you'd probably guess.

hrothbern · July 2016

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Just finished a run of Vet city of ash and man was that a joke now. Prior to doing that I did ICP and that was a whole lot easier and way less challenging; I'm not sure if the nerf also was to change enemy health but things were getting burned way fast. On VCOA we burned the massive daedroth right as he summoned ads he dropped... titan didn't even have a chance to rain hell fire and was consistently going into his animation where he summons his air atros... and finally skoria got worked so badly before he could finish breaking the second ring he died.

ICP first boss was a joke still but we had to take our time so we didn't get so many adds, second boss was pushed to his phase pretty quickly while flesh atros were dropping with little to no problem, 3rd boss was always easy but now he's pretty much a glorified mob with a large AoE knock back, 4th boss wasn't difficult but always takes a bit of time but nevertheless it was easy as.. well you know. Lastly warden was like butter, I cut through him as if i were putting butter on my bread ready to toast on my pan.

Tl;DR Dungeons need to stop getting easier and start getting harder to make it feel more rewarding to complete. The rate this game is going with making content easier you might as well give me a group finder for a trial or a hub for players who want to do a trial run because that's the only place I feel a challenge especially on veteran mode.

I think there must be a satisfying challenge for everyone and we need therefore a difficulty slider with 5 steps or so
and increase somewhat the loot drop rate & quality if played at a more difficult level.

Phinix1 · July 2016

The biggest problem I have with this request is that it sets up a very real issue with "power creep."

Not so much creep, but gap. Basically the more content ZOS creates that is accessible to only a tiny portion of the community, the more only that tiny portion will have the gear needed from the last "challenge mode" content to fact the next iteration.

It sets up a barrier to entry that becomes increasingly impossible to bridge. Then the devs have to devote MORE resources to the content less than 10% of people are using to make it so the next tier down can access it once the hardcores get bored.

But then, it is already kind of like this. Have you done the new trial? Do you have your Maelstrom weapon?

I was going to suggest maybe a group mode to vMSA and more content like that. But there we have the same problem. People with Maelstrom weapons are already doing 5-10k more DPS on average than other reasonably skilled players (with certain weapons).

Imagine the gap once gear for content you need that gear for is released, and only 10% of 10% have it yet.

Clerics1985 · July 2016

Nerf Vmsa plz i still can't get past the second stage!

Lysette · July 2016

What ZOS will certainly do are arena and small scale PvP inside a rule set - because this is what makes sense and where more than just the elite players will want to participate. Battlegrounds, hm, I am not so sure about those, I doubt that ZOS wants a MOBA inside their game, but it will depend on how well capture the flag in Cyrrodil will be accepted and used, I guess.

Lysette · July 2016

hrothbern wrote: »

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Just finished a run of Vet city of ash and man was that a joke now. Prior to doing that I did ICP and that was a whole lot easier and way less challenging; I'm not sure if the nerf also was to change enemy health but things were getting burned way fast. On VCOA we burned the massive daedroth right as he summoned ads he dropped... titan didn't even have a chance to rain hell fire and was consistently going into his animation where he summons his air atros... and finally skoria got worked so badly before he could finish breaking the second ring he died.

ICP first boss was a joke still but we had to take our time so we didn't get so many adds, second boss was pushed to his phase pretty quickly while flesh atros were dropping with little to no problem, 3rd boss was always easy but now he's pretty much a glorified mob with a large AoE knock back, 4th boss wasn't difficult but always takes a bit of time but nevertheless it was easy as.. well you know. Lastly warden was like butter, I cut through him as if i were putting butter on my bread ready to toast on my pan.

Tl;DR Dungeons need to stop getting easier and start getting harder to make it feel more rewarding to complete. The rate this game is going with making content easier you might as well give me a group finder for a trial or a hub for players who want to do a trial run because that's the only place I feel a challenge especially on veteran mode.

I think there must be a satisfying challenge for everyone and we need therefore a difficulty slider with 5 steps or so
and increase somewhat the loot drop rate & quality if played at a more difficult level.

I am all for difficulty sliders - but I am not for better loot or higher quality gear - this would just lead to power creep. I think it should be more of a symbolic trophy - a special title for example or a couple of days of ESO+ as reward for an exceptionally difficult run.

Kammakazi · July 2016

Obviously it's easier because of how easy it is to get Champion Points.

Also, the new gear sets are fairly easy to get.

Try running a dungeon with allocating only 300 CP and using Blue gear.

Hallothiel · July 2016

Well some of us mere mortals don't find them super easy. And stupidly reading some of the threads on these forums has made me wary of even trying.

(But that does not mean I want them made easier! Just want to be able to find a decent helpful group.)

Flak · July 2016

Yeah it's stupid, I mean keep in mind before IC only the top 1% were able to reach 20k DPS, now those players can do 40 or even 50k because of champion points and overpowered gear. But what do they do? Instead of scaling these dungeons to a reasonable difficulty they nerf them further.
For the casual players: I agree that some dungeons might have been too hard for you, but I don't understand why they have to bring all of them to the same level.
You have alot of easy dungeons even on vet. So why not have 2-3 hard ones?
People go to Trials and get rekt because the dungeons don't prepare them for harder stuff.

The Uninvited · July 2016

Flak wrote: »

Yeah it's stupid, I mean keep in mind before IC only the top 1% were able to reach 20k DPS, now those players can do 40 or even 50k because of champion points and overpowered gear. But what do they do? Instead of scaling these dungeons to a reasonable difficulty they nerf them further.
For the casual players: I agree that some dungeons might have been too hard for you, but I don't understand why they have to bring all of them to the same level.
You have alot of easy dungeons even on vet. So why not have 2-3 hard ones?
People go to Trials and get rekt because the dungeons don't prepare them for harder stuff.

Right on, Flak.

Destruent · July 2016

Kammakazi wrote: »

Obviously it's easier because of how easy it is to get Champion Points.

Also, the new gear sets are fairly easy to get.

Try running a dungeon with allocating only 300 CP and using Blue gear.

You know...those dungeons got beaten on PTS with 300CP Templates before they got nerfed like 4 (?) times. That's just an excuse for bad gameplay.
Oh, and fyi, most dungeons were easy with 100CP and on V14...

Mureel · July 2016

Milvan wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Milvan wrote: »

I totally agree with op. PVE currently needs a big upgrade.

Well, it is coming - One Tamriel. But this will as well not please those 5%, who expect to be super-special and be treated super-special - the game is made for the 95%, who are not super-special and pay for the show. Those 5% could never do that.

You sounds like a troll. I don't engage in discussion with trolls. See you around.

LOL so explaining things in a calm, logical fashion is trolling? Sounds more like adulting to me. Perhaps therein lies the disconnect?

The Uninvited · July 2016

Mureel wrote: »

Milvan wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Milvan wrote: »

I totally agree with op. PVE currently needs a big upgrade.

Well, it is coming - One Tamriel. But this will as well not please those 5%, who expect to be super-special and be treated super-special - the game is made for the 95%, who are not super-special and pay for the show. Those 5% could never do that.

You sounds like a troll. I don't engage in discussion with trolls. See you around.

LOL so explaining things in a calm, logical fashion is trolling? Sounds more like adulting to me. Perhaps therein lies the disconnect?

"who expect to be super-special and be treated super-special" sounds like trolling to me. Pointing fingers at each other is never good in a discussion.

OrphanHelgen · July 2016

Your dps is still not high enough

Start middle and burn down on first, people even did this one year ago.

Anyway, i kind of like it.
I had my day with no dps and 6 hours stuck in coa.
I only wanted a gold key and if that takes me 10 min, great.

New players, lets say 4 people with 160 cp each, will still struggle like we used to do.
So you cant blame our current dungeons, but rather blame that we dont have challenging dungeons enough for endgame.

But if we get, we have some noobs raging about them as well so i dont even know why im spending my time here commenting, its for no use anyway, no one is happy. Dungeons too hard or dungeons too easy.
Zos cant come to your house and note down your playstyle and personality and make a game based on that. You are not alone.

Now go beat vmol 6 players or something if game is too easy.

GreenhaloX · July 2016

Any group dungeon run would be considered easy, yes, if you're in a strong group that works well together. If you're in a group that has everybody, at least in the 200 CP and upper range, you can breeze through any normal group dungeon. However, if you're in a group that the others are not yet even in the CP range or only within the double digits, it tense to be a bit more challenged and not so easy. Really hard to take on the boss when everybody else is already dead, and you're getting pommeled while trying in vain to revive the others.

MaxwellC · July 2016

I should've provided some context on how the group setup was I will do that in the main post.

Peekachu99 · July 2016

Everything is easier when you're in full gold 160 gear, at CP cap, and have pre-existing knowledge of an instance. At that point, it's pure muscle memory at work.

I'm an above average to great player (depending on the day lol). I say that with humility, based on my skill and achievements in this and other games of its nature. Still, I understand that I was not always comfortable with the game, it's mechanics and systems.

Some of the most fun I've had lately was NOT dropping from the Vet ICP run that had two folks well under 100 CP. Sure, they/ we struggled at points, but no one gave up, no one was an as$hole, and the dungeon only took around 45m anyway. It's good to remember that we were all noobs once, and that this is a social game, catered to a diverse profile of people with variable gaming experience. It's not made for the 1% and 1% alone.

In other words, get off your high horse and try and enjoy this wonderful game and its community (not the bugs, though, those need to go). PVP will always provide the greatest challenge anyway, since AI has yet to surpass human cunning. Go 1v1 in a CP-free campaign if you want a challenge and see how "good" you really are.

We have enough angst and decisiveness in real life--keep that stuff out of Tamriel.

Saturn · July 2016

The reason why they are "easier" is because everyone you've run with know the place, have good builds, etc. Plus it doesn't help that everyone is able to pull 30k dps or more on singletarget, since that's how bosses melt so fast. If everyone couldn't pull more than 10-15k dps then you'd think it was difficult because you couldn't ignore mechanics.

It's just the way MMOs work, when ICP and WGT came out they were hard because people weren't familiar with them, now they are just slightly harder than older dungeons.
Sidenote: the nerf to ICP and WGT was 10% less health on all enemies.

I think you'll like the two upcoming dungeons as they will be difficult for a while (unless you go practice intensely on the PTS). Personally I'm in love with the last boss fight in Cradle, that fight is difficult, but entertaining.

Wifeaggro13 · July 2016

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Just finished a run of Vet city of ash and man was that a joke now. Prior to doing that I did ICP and that was a whole lot easier and way less challenging; I'm not sure if the nerf also was to change enemy health but things were getting burned way fast. On VCOA we burned the massive daedroth right as he summoned ads he dropped... titan didn't even have a chance to rain hell fire and was consistently going into his animation where he summons his air atros... and finally skoria got worked so badly before he could finish breaking the second ring he died.

ICP first boss was a joke still but we had to take our time so we didn't get so many adds, second boss was pushed to his phase pretty quickly while flesh atros were dropping with little to no problem, 3rd boss was always easy but now he's pretty much a glorified mob with a large AoE knock back, 4th boss wasn't difficult but always takes a bit of time but nevertheless it was easy as.. well you know. Lastly warden was like butter, I cut through him as if i were putting butter on my bread ready to toast on my pan.

Addition: We had 1 tank 1 healer (both not doing DPS aside from heavy attacks) A sorc using force pulse/frags and A stam DK using maelstrom axes (DW)

Tl;DR Dungeons need to stop getting easier and start getting harder to make it feel more rewarding to complete. The rate this game is going with making content easier you might as well give me a group finder for a trial or a hub for players who want to do a trial run because that's the only place I feel a challenge especially on veteran mode.

This why i left this garbage SPORPG design. the current direction of the game is not worth investing tiime and 15 bucks a quarter for grabge DLC's directed at the single player Market

Destruent · July 2016

Saturn wrote: »

The reason why they are "easier" is because everyone you've run with know the place, have good builds, etc. Plus it doesn't help that everyone is able to pull 30k dps or more on singletarget, since that's how bosses melt so fast. If everyone couldn't pull more than 10-15k dps then you'd think it was difficult because you couldn't ignore mechanics.

It's just the way MMOs work, when ICP and WGT came out they were hard because people weren't familiar with them, now they are just slightly harder than older dungeons.
Sidenote: the nerf to ICP and WGT was 10% less health on all enemies.

I think you'll like the two upcoming dungeons as they will be difficult for a while (unless you go practice intensely on the PTS). Personally I'm in love with the last boss fight in Cradle, that fight is difficult, but entertaining.

That was one nerf, you forgot about the other 3.
And yes, dungeons get easier over time, but ZOS also nerfs them bc people can't wait till they get stronger through gear/CP/gameplay.

Molag_Crow · July 2016

Do them with randoms through group finder

Molag_Crow · July 2016

And what a lot of you seem to be forgetting is that the new difficult dungeons are on their way in the next small DLC.

ZOS looked at the data, seen a minority complete it, nerfed it. What's wrong with that? monster helmets and shoulders from those dungeons can be found in the golden Undaunted vendor in Cyrodiil now anyway, so I know there weren't much incentive to run them, but to be honest, Molag Kena (2 piece) and Lord Warden are overrated in my opinion. Still, I understand that it's more about the challenge of the content, but like others have said, you've got better gear/more CP now so it's expected.

MaxwellC · July 2016

@Molag_Crow
That's the funny thing it was with randoms only the DPS had 501 CP the rest weren't 501, the tank had 400 something and the healer 200 something.