Just 2 noobs in Cyrodil

Miszou · July 2016

For the past few days, I (and my son) have been experimenting with PvP in Cyrodil.

He is pretty much new to the game, but I've been playing one character (Argonian Tank) long enough to max out my mount and then some. So, we made a couple of new characters (DK/NB), with the intent of playing together, and we thought we'd check out some low-level PvP...

And I must say, it's actually kinda fun.

But, I have a couple of questions.

1). Where is the lag? I feel like I'm missing something important. My sons machine (i5/8GB/Radeon 7870) is older than mine (i5/16GB/Radeon R9290X) and he hasn't found any lag either. We both enjoy participating in large sieges with dozens of players running around, and we're constantly amazed at how smoothly the game is running.

2). What is the problem with "zergs"? The large-scale warfare in Cyrodil seems to require a sizeable force in order to complete objectives. Is a zerg just a colloquial term for someone with a larger army than you? Why do people think they should be able to run around solo in Cyrodil and then complain about getting rolled over by an army on the move? It makes no sense.

The large fights are fantastic and allow us both to feel "useful" without forcing us into hopeless 1v1 encounters against pro players. The organic ebb and flow of combat as reinforcements arrive to beat back an almost inevitable victory is really quite amazing. In just one example last night, we had the walls down on a keep and were about to storm in, when about 20-30 defenders came charging over the hill and routed us. It was pretty epic and the tide of fortune turned very quickly.

Maybe we're doing it wrong, but neither of us is feeling the hate for Cyrodil that is so prevalent on these forums.

Just 2c from a couple of scrubs that enjoy large group combat.

DenMoria · July 2016

I have absolutely no answers for you as I am in the same boat with my other 1/2 (only we're on PS4s), so I'm looking forward to the answers.

Thanks for asking this!

Lexxypwns · July 2016

Lag definitely exists, its not as bad in non-cp campaigns because there's less passives and calculations, less overall skilled players, and fewer ball groups.

The complaint about zergs comes from the fact that large groups adversely affect server performance, there's already a huge mathematical advantage given by numbers due to aoe caps and the lack of dynamic ulti gen, then on top of that you create lag which makes skills unresponsive, eliminating the chance to really fight back when grossly outnumbered.

Honestly, no offense, but you're the typical zergling. You're a little unsure/unfamiliar with your build and seek the comfort of a group of players to use as a crutch. I'm not criticizing you, just explaining, please don't take this as negative. Some people prefer to play with small groups/solo because they have or are seeking to build relationships and better themselves, for these players, when a 20 man zerg chases their 4(all numbers anecdotal) it is frustrating, due to poor server performance and already biased math they're completely unable to compete.

Most pvp complaints on these forums come from people that truly love this game and want to see it fulfill the enormous potential it has. After 2+ years of pvp you just get tired of seeing the same BS, the same 40 man group lagging the servers so that even if you could overcome the mathematical advantage they have you can't win the fight because skills don't respond.

Nestor · July 2016

I think the non CP campaigns are fairly lag free, that is why a lot of people play them.

Ourorboros · July 2016

How bad lag is varies between campaigns, with the worst being in most populated during prime time in large scale action. It feels awful when you press buttons repeatedly and nothing happens due to lag, only to find yourself dead a few seconds latter when the lag ends. It's nice you haven't experienced it, but it is real.

I'm with you on zergs. Am I part of a zerg because I'm in a guild raid of up to 24? Maybe, but since we often encounter enemy groups of the same or larger size, this seems a reasonable way to play. Not all have the time, talent, or interest in being expert gamers, so zergs seem a good way to offset such players. I see plenty of them with groups of their own, so quit complaining already. ZERG ON!

I barely visited Cyrodiil until 6 months ago, but the action you describe is intoxicating. Now, it's what I do most in the game. I also love the ebb and flow of battle. If you are not already, join a PVP guild. It's great to share the action with like minded gamers.

NeillMcAttack · July 2016

@Miszou @DenMoria

Can i ask what campaign you both are playing in? To me it sounds like it's certainly a No CP campaign which I know suffers a lot less stress and so lag. That could be the answer. If you were to play in one of the pop locked CP campaigns you would definitely learn what it is to lag out during a large battle.

GrumpyDuckling · July 2016

Miszou wrote: »

For the past few days, I (and my son) have been experimenting with PvP in Cyrodil.

He is pretty much new to the game, but I've been playing one character (Argonian Tank) long enough to max out my mount and then some. So, we made a couple of new characters (DK/NB), with the intent of playing together, and we thought we'd check out some low-level PvP...

And I must say, it's actually kinda fun.

But, I have a couple of questions.

1). Where is the lag? I feel like I'm missing something important. My sons machine (i5/8GB/Radeon 7870) is older than mine (i5/16GB/Radeon R9290X) and he hasn't found any lag either. We both enjoy participating in large sieges with dozens of players running around, and we're constantly amazed at how smoothly the game is running.

2). What is the problem with "zergs"? The large-scale warfare in Cyrodil seems to require a sizeable force in order to complete objectives. Is a zerg just a colloquial term for someone with a larger army than you? Why do people think they should be able to run around solo in Cyrodil and then complain about getting rolled over by an army on the move? It makes no sense.

The large fights are fantastic and allow us both to feel "useful" without forcing us into hopeless 1v1 encounters against pro players. The organic ebb and flow of combat as reinforcements arrive to beat back an almost inevitable victory is really quite amazing. In just one example last night, we had the walls down on a keep and were about to storm in, when about 20-30 defenders came charging over the hill and routed us. It was pretty epic and the tide of fortune turned very quickly.

Maybe we're doing it wrong, but neither of us is feeling the hate for Cyrodil that is so prevalent on these forums.

Just 2c from a couple of scrubs that enjoy large group combat.

It's nice to see that you're enjoying your PVP experience with your son. It's nice to hear stories like yours. I hope your experience continues to go well.

In answer to your questions:

1) I play on Xbox and the lag is really awful when trying to take or capture a keep. Since the Dark Brotherhood update came out, I have crashed to the "Xbox desktop" countless times (I say countless because it happens so often that I have stopped keeping count).

2) Zergs are especially frustrating for me as a Templar (the character I use the most). I enjoy some aspects of large scale combat, but when I've been told by Mr. Wrobel (the guy who primarily designs classes for ESO) that enemies are "in trouble" when they enter my "house," I can't help but counter his point by saying that zergs simply bust houses with ease.

Mr. Wrobel says that Templars are about laying areas of protection, which is useless when a zerg comes rolling around. DKs will flap their wings and retreat. Nightblades will cloak and retreat. Sorcs will streak and retreat. Templars just die.

Lexxypwns · July 2016

Ourorboros wrote: »

How bad lag is varies between campaigns, with the worst being in most populated during prime time in large scale action. It feels awful when you press buttons repeatedly and nothing happens due to lag, only to find yourself dead a few seconds latter when the lag ends. It's nice you haven't experienced it, but it is real.

I'm with you on zergs. Am I part of a zerg because I'm in a guild raid of up to 24? Maybe, but since we often encounter enemy groups of the same or larger size, this seems a reasonable way to play. Not all have the time, talent, or interest in being expert gamers, so zergs seem a good way to offset such players. I see plenty of them with groups of their own, so quit complaining already. ZERG ON!

I barely visited Cyrodiil until 6 months ago, but the action you describe is intoxicating. Now, it's what I do most in the game. I also love the ebb and flow of battle. If you are not already, join a PVP guild. It's great to share the action with like minded gamers.

+1

Even though I'm a solo player and I hate getting run over by 283943 people, its not my place to tell anyone how to play or judge them for it. Its a game, I just shrug it off, revive, and avoid where I know large groups will be.

It often seems like the 4 or 8 man organized group wants to fight 1.5x as many unorganized pugs as their numbers and never more, its pathetic, in open world pvp you sometimes just get zerged down, don't cry about it.

Darkestnght · July 2016

I play on Xbox NA "Scourge" and the lag is very real. I also can get kicked out completely (happened 3 times last night in a 4 hour session.) The battles can be huge and I have learned to just slow down and wait for the game to catch up sometimes and skill/attacks are delayed most of the time so you have to account for that to. It can be very frustrating at times but still fun somehow.....

I do go solo half the time and that seems to be lag free for the most part.

Miszou · July 2016

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Honestly, no offense, but you're the typical zergling. You're a little unsure/unfamiliar with your build and seek the comfort of a group of players to use as a crutch.

You're absolutely right. No offense taken, but it does seem a little strange to look down ones nose at us zerglings, given that the entire zone is designed for such combat. Outside of Hollywood, I've never heard of 4 people successfully sieging a keep against an entrenched army...

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

@Miszou @DenMoria

Can i ask what campaign you both are playing in? To me it sounds like it's certainly a No CP campaign which I know suffers a lot less stress and so lag. That could be the answer. If you were to play in one of the pop locked CP campaigns you would definitely learn what it is to lag out during a large battle.

We're both around level 20-22 right now, so we're in the non-vet campaign. Blackwater Blade I think it's called..?

It still seems like quite a popular campaign though.... all three factions are showing a padlock on the alliance war page.

WillhelmBlack · July 2016

Low level PvP.

zyk · July 2016

Miszou wrote: »

We're both around level 20-22 right now, so we're in the non-vet campaign. Blackwater Blade I think it's called..?

It still seems like quite a popular campaign though.... all three factions are showing a padlock on the alliance war page.

Play on Trueflame during prime time and you will certainly experience lag. The other campaigns are less populated and/or less competitive.

The only reason every campaign isn't like this is because the game bleeds competitive players. Competitive players have a greater load on the server than less experienced players because they are more active and therefore issue commands to the server at a much higher rate.

The zergs on BWB are also nothing like what is seen on a competitive campaign.

You aren't experienced enough to judge Cyrodiil. Play for a few months before posting "I don't see what the big deal is about." To an experienced player who is frustrated at how ZOS has managed Cyrodiil, it is actually rather insulting.

CasNation · July 2016

To fill in an answer gap to your second question, a "zerg" also usually carries the connotation of being disorganized, and simply having a large number of players that aren't communicating effectively (if at all) and succeeds only because of a sheer number advantage, not tactical skill.

This annoys some people because even when outnumbered 4-1, a highly skilled highly organized small group should be able to cut through a blob of unskilled or individually weak players. Some players ARE capable of doing this, but as other have mentioned above, the game very strongly favors high numbers due to AoE caps. If you don't know what AoE caps are, Google them. It is an important concept to understand in the game. Especially in PvP.

As an aside though, I also find Blackwater Blade incredibly fun. Glad you are having a blast!

Pomaikai · July 2016

Cyrodiil was always supposed to be about large scale combat. If you want small scale PVP, then head to IC. That's what it was designed for.

PurifedBladez · July 2016

When people zerg it causes massive lag and, might even result in the game crashing. Zerging has its place in this game but, in its current state it's really drops the performance of pvp overall.

On the other hand I do agree with you about the people that complain about getting zerg'd down. I feel like those players that cry about it should understand that they're not playing team death match.

XB1 NA

GreenhaloX · July 2016

Just want to say how awesome is that to play ESO with your son. Very cool..

Lexxypwns · July 2016

Miszou wrote: »

You're absolutely right. No offense taken, but it does seem a little strange to look down ones nose at us zerglings, given that the entire zone is designed for such combat. Outside of Hollywood, I've never heard of 4 people successfully sieging a keep against an entrenched army...

Everyone thinks their way is best. I've personally done it all. I ran in big guild groups, small guild groups, Solo'd, Duo'd, etc. Each has very different skill sets required, while I personally enjoy solo/duo play more that doesn't invalidate other styles. However, its the internet, zerglings hate small group players, small group players hate zerglings, and anonymity allows you to be as much of a tool about it as you choose

Pomaikai · July 2016

I don't hate any style of group or play in Cyrodiil. Well, other than archers. I really HATE archers...

Smasherx74 · July 2016

Miszou wrote: »

For the past few days, I (and my son) have been experimenting with PvP in Cyrodil.

He is pretty much new to the game, but I've been playing one character (Argonian Tank) long enough to max out my mount and then some. So, we made a couple of new characters (DK/NB), with the intent of playing together, and we thought we'd check out some low-level PvP...

And I must say, it's actually kinda fun.

But, I have a couple of questions.

1). Where is the lag? I feel like I'm missing something important. My sons machine (i5/8GB/Radeon 7870) is older than mine (i5/16GB/Radeon R9290X) and he hasn't found any lag either. We both enjoy participating in large sieges with dozens of players running around, and we're constantly amazed at how smoothly the game is running.

2). What is the problem with "zergs"? The large-scale warfare in Cyrodil seems to require a sizeable force in order to complete objectives. Is a zerg just a colloquial term for someone with a larger army than you? Why do people think they should be able to run around solo in Cyrodil and then complain about getting rolled over by an army on the move? It makes no sense.

The large fights are fantastic and allow us both to feel "useful" without forcing us into hopeless 1v1 encounters against pro players. The organic ebb and flow of combat as reinforcements arrive to beat back an almost inevitable victory is really quite amazing. In just one example last night, we had the walls down on a keep and were about to storm in, when about 20-30 defenders came charging over the hill and routed us. It was pretty epic and the tide of fortune turned very quickly.

Maybe we're doing it wrong, but neither of us is feeling the hate for Cyrodil that is so prevalent on these forums.

Just 2c from a couple of scrubs that enjoy large group combat.

1. The lag only happens on machines that have poor per-core performance such as AMD processors. But if you get in a big enough zerg even a I5 6600k will drop to 1fps.

2. The game is heavily optimized and apparently it's mainly due to anti-cheater algorithms. I was unable to play the game on my laptop APU after 1.6 because of this, before it was possible at least without infinite load screens due to objects not loading.

NeillMcAttack · July 2016

Miszou wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

@Miszou @DenMoria

Can i ask what campaign you both are playing in? To me it sounds like it's certainly a No CP campaign which I know suffers a lot less stress and so lag. That could be the answer. If you were to play in one of the pop locked CP campaigns you would definitely learn what it is to lag out during a large battle.

We're both around level 20-22 right now, so we're in the non-vet campaign. Blackwater Blade I think it's called..?

It still seems like quite a popular campaign though.... all three factions are showing a padlock on the alliance war page.

Pop-locked BwB, I'm so jealous. That sounds awesome. Like in the first days of playing...... ahhh memories!!!

Miszou · July 2016

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

Miszou wrote: »

NeillMcAttack wrote: »

@Miszou @DenMoria

Can i ask what campaign you both are playing in? To me it sounds like it's certainly a No CP campaign which I know suffers a lot less stress and so lag. That could be the answer. If you were to play in one of the pop locked CP campaigns you would definitely learn what it is to lag out during a large battle.

We're both around level 20-22 right now, so we're in the non-vet campaign. Blackwater Blade I think it's called..?

It still seems like quite a popular campaign though.... all three factions are showing a padlock on the alliance war page.

Pop-locked BwB, I'm so jealous. That sounds awesome. Like in the first days of playing...... ahhh memories!!!

Yeah... if vet PvP is all laggy and hyper-competitive, as I keep hearing, I might just reroll and start again once I level out of BlackWater.

BlackWater is just "fun", and that's good enough for me.

zyk · July 2016

Smasherx74 wrote: »

1. The lag only happens on machines that have poor per-core performance such as AMD processors. But if you get in a big enough zerg even a I5 6600k will drop to 1fps.

2. The game is heavily optimized and apparently it's mainly due to anti-cheater algorithms. I was unable to play the game on my laptop APU after 1.6 because of this, before it was possible at least without infinite load screens due to objects not loading.

Is this a joke?

1. The Cyrodiil performance issues players most complain about are server-side.
2. The game has no apparent anti-cheat mechanisms aside from basic obfuscation of memory addresses. As such, cheaters have, for years, gotten away with memory hacking.