AdmiralSam wrote: »

Wollust wrote: »

NovaShadow wrote: »

PVE mobs don't crit.

So no Impen.

That argument Wrobel made is so stupid I can't even believe it.
Gear deterioration doesn't happen in PvP either, so Impen should have as much of a place in PvE as Training and Prosperous.

"But wait, it does help in pvp... now, if you die to fall dmg, your repairs will cost less"

Just roll a wood elf

You put the pve box around impen, but then said any kind of content for the other two. Double standard; and thus, I was considering all of the traits with all content in mind. Considering *all content*, impen is way more useful, and no one would be worse off if gear close to and at the current CP cap (cap is not strictly bound to meaning 3k cp, by the way, it's an unspecific word) would drop in impen instead of training. You cannot make a believable argument in which training is more useful to anyone playing later game content, it's just not going to hold up under any kind of reasonable scrutiny.

Because Impen literally is only useful in PvP? Who's going to, drop or otherwise, wear an entire set of Impen for the REDUCED ARMOR DAMAGE passive? Nobody, I'd hope, since that only functions when you're doing it wrong. All it does is reduce the frequency of repair, there is no "reduced repair cost" some people have spouted that's just plain misinformation. You're still spending the same amount, and you shouldn't really be repairing your gear often anyway.

You can wear a full set of Training/Prosperous gear in ANY content: if Prosperous boosted AP as well as gold, you'd bet your ass all the PvPers would be all over it too. Impen is GREAT in PvP and may as well not be there in PvE. But yeah, "I'm at CP501 Training sucks!" makes so much sense in a game with a thousands-high CP ceiling. Let's see that reduced repair frequency be more useful in PvE than something a tiny, tiny proportion of players at 3000+ CP ceiling legitly can't use.


I mean, by all means, someone explain the benefit of wearing a full set of Impen for PvE play that doesn't involve "B-But but I'll go PvP later!". It's as good as going traitless, compared to a full set of Training which is almost as good as the Cake buff, or a full set of Prosperous which is what... +50% gold gain from drops? When you actually PvE that adds up...

The amount of repairs start pilling up when you're doing vMoL HM. Impen has therefore much more use in a PvE environment than Training and/or Prosperous.

I'm no expert raider, but I'm pretty sure anyone who's rolling a full set of Impen isn't going to be invited to vMoL.

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Impen is strictly a PVP trait, hence should only be available as a drop from the PvP vendor. Frankly, I'm glad that one less useless trait is removed from the loot table for PvE players. You get to spend a paltry amount of AP and choose the EXACT type of monster piece you want (heavy, light, etc.). You are in no position to be complaining.

Your argumentation is flawed in many ways.

1. Impen is not strictly a PvP trait, it has a PvE component which is more valuable than Prosperous and Training (on endgame gear).
2. We can buy once a week one random piece. We just had twice in a row Maw of the Infernal. We do not have enough chances of buying the required item therefore compared to simply farming it. So there is reason to complain. If we want to farm it by doing dungeons, why prevent that?
Also, PvEers can buy the undaunted sets as well with an Infused trait for gold. Therefore the vendor is not strictly PvP but made for the whole population and both play styles. Why not separate here if we are already separating the play styles through loot tables?
3. This is not only about the monster sets but about every set which has no fixed trait on it. Including the new sets on PTS.

Transairion wrote: »

You put the pve box around impen, but then said any kind of content for the other two. Double standard; and thus, I was considering all of the traits with all content in mind. Considering *all content*, impen is way more useful, and no one would be worse off if gear close to and at the current CP cap (cap is not strictly bound to meaning 3k cp, by the way, it's an unspecific word) would drop in impen instead of training. You cannot make a believable argument in which training is more useful to anyone playing later game content, it's just not going to hold up under any kind of reasonable scrutiny.

The amount of repairs start pilling up when you're doing vMoL HM. Impen has therefore much more use in a PvE environment than Training and/or Prosperous.

I'm no expert raider, but I'm pretty sure anyone who's rolling a full set of Impen isn't going to be invited to vMoL.

Way to go quoting only one part of my statement. I already said if I had to choose between Impen, Training and Prosperous because I lack Divines, I'd take Impen anytime. Not that I actually do that as I obviously have full Divines gear. It was just an example of a situation where Impen > Training/Prosperous in a PvE situation.

Impen reduces your repair cost by reducing the amount of times you need to repair. That is a completely valid statement.

In the end, this goes around to the fact that certain players simply like to completely separate playstyles because they dislike one. In your case, you're not fond of PvP and therefore you debate the opinion "Screw PvPers, their needs are unimportant". That is simply toxic behavior and not in the sense this game has been created.
I was always glad that PvP gear was actually useful in PvE back in 1.6. It gave pure PvEers and pure PvPers a reason to interact with each other, which I consider an important thing in an MMO. Even if it was only for a trading relationship.
Same as adding Impen to the loot table would cause more people to actually farm those dungeons. Who would not benefit from that?
Many of my PvP friends don't see a single reason to run the new dungeons because they don't drop Impen. How is that a wise business move by ZoS? How is that better for pure PvE people?


PS: No worries, I'm in an "expert raiders" guild and I get invited.

I don't think you understand how repairing works If you repair less frequently, that reduces the cost of your repairs.. you spend less money on repairing than you would...

And as a couple pretty high-cred people said in this thread, the overall wear reduction impen gives makes it more desirable than training.

Also, could I ask you to stop sounding so negative? If all you're gonna do is not acknowledge people who address your points, then what's the point of posting here?

I don't think you understand how repairing works either, if saving a couple hundred gold (a room full of PvE mobs) every few hours is considered big savings for you. It adds up, sure, but unless you make no gold at all you'll always be way ahead of your costs even without Impen. You'd be better off going full Properous and coming out further ahead anyway (assuming you, you know, fight PvE mobs that drop gold to begin with).

50% Wear Reduction > ~60-70% experience gain is a pretty damning claim to make, so excuse me if I take it with a truckload of salt "high-cred" people or not. That's entirely an opinion, same as "Propserous and Training are not useless" is mine. Same as people responding with "I hate these traits your a moron for thinking otherwise" is not much of addressing points either.

You really want me to think Cake-buff like exp gain < old Sturdy? Because that what it sounds like you're saying.


Here, let me remind everyone that PvE Impen is literally the old Sturdy, aka "one of the trash tier traits" nobody wanted?

Divines Sapphire Sapphire Increases Mundus Stone effects.
Exploration Garnet Garnet Increase exploration XP gain.
Impenetrable Diamond Diamond Reduces the damage you take from Critical Strikes.
Infused Bloodstone Bloodstone Increase Armor Enchantment effect.
Nirnhoned Fortified Nirncrux Fortified Nirncrux Increases Spell Resistance.
Reinforced Sardonyx Sardonyx Increases Armor.
Sturdy Quartz Quartz Item takes less durability damage.
Training Emerald Emerald Increase Armor Skill Line XP gain.
Well Fitted Almandine Almandine Reduces the Stamina cost of Sprinting.

Of the former armor traits, Exploration, Sturdy, Training, Well Fitted and (depending on role) Reinforced were all considered trash tier traits the same as everyone likes to think of Training/Propserous right now. Don't pretend Impen is now amazing for PvE because it has the old Study shoved into it, nobody would want the old Sturdy back so don't try and sell it to us. We don't want it.

It was vendor trash then, for PvE Impen is vendor trash now. If you want Zenimax to make PvE mobs in Cryodill/Imperial City drop any set in Impen, by all means, but don't make my Vet Dungeons drop PvP gear.

Way to go quoting only one part of my statement. I already said if I had to choose between Impen, Training and Prosperous because I lack Divines, I'd take Impen anytime. Not that I actually do that as I obviously have full Divines gear. It was just an example of a situation where Impen > Training/Prosperous in a PvE situation.

Impen reduces your repair cost by reducing the amount of times you need to repair. That is a completely valid statement.

Your posed a loaded statement in which all of the options are terrible for raiding to begin with: you wouldn't turn up in reduce block or reduce sprint gear as a DPS either, so it's really kind of meaningless. In the case of "no Divines/Infused" for a raid everything would pretty much be junk anyway and you could make an argument for anything... full Training for huge raid exp why not? If you're raiding you're not going to be too broke to afford repairs to begin with, so going full Impen isn't some holy grail just personal choice.

I would agree, if as already said repair cost was a big deal: it's not, the highest repair cost I've ever had by destroying basically everything was 1900 gold. This isn't SWTOR where it can blow out above 30k, that's a really low amount of gold even by really low gold income standards.

If Impen = less repair = less gold spent is valid, then Prosperous = more gold gained = more gold to spend on repair + everything else is just as valid. Yet apparently it isn't valid, because OMG PROPEROUS.

Your whole argument was that impen has "no use in PvE". We told you that it did, and you now say that "sure, but it's not good enough". Which is what we've said about training and prosperous, to which you replied "it may not be good enough, but it does have a use". So that's exactly what I say to you I'll also repeat that we don't want impen because it's use in PvE, but its use in PvE does mean your argument doesn't hold

Furthermore, we didn't say that we don't want training to exist. But that we'd rather not have it on dungeon loot If we did, along with impen, we could live with that too. It sounds like you're just arguing for the sake of argument, which really isn't helpful.

If Impen in PvE has a use, then Sturdy used to have a use. Yet every time people got Sturdy gear, they got all mad and burned it in a fire for being useless. Sturdy and Impen got combined, but that doesn't make the old Sturdy somehow good. It's just as trash now as then for PvE.

Don't try and claim something like +50% gold gain or +60-70% experience gain is useless and shouldn't drop, while arguing for 50% less (up to 2000 gold) repairs every few hours SHOULD drop.

It's PvE drops rewarding PvE gear, not PvP gear. Impen has always been PvP gear. Slapping the old trash-tier Study on it DOES NOT make it good PvE gear, it's still PvP gear. Nobody wants Impen for PvE. Mind you, nobody wants anything other than Divines for PvE either.

Transairion wrote: »

I don't think you understand how repairing works If you repair less frequently, that reduces the cost of your repairs.. you spend less money on repairing than you would...

And as a couple pretty high-cred people said in this thread, the overall wear reduction impen gives makes it more desirable than training.

Also, could I ask you to stop sounding so negative? If all you're gonna do is not acknowledge people who address your points, then what's the point of posting here?

I don't think you understand how repairing works either, if saving a couple hundred gold (a room full of PvE mobs) every few hours is considered big savings for you. It adds up, sure, but unless you make no gold at all you'll always be way ahead of your costs even without Impen. You'd be better off going full Properous and coming out further ahead anyway (assuming you, you know, fight PvE mobs that drop gold to begin with).

50% Wear Reduction > ~60-70% experience gain is a pretty damning claim to make, so excuse me if I take it with a truckload of salt "high-cred" people or not. That's entirely an opinion, same as "Propserous and Training are not useless" is mine. Same as people responding with "I hate these traits your a moron for thinking otherwise" is not much of addressing points either.

You really want me to think Cake-buff like exp gain < old Sturdy? Because that what it sounds like you're saying.


Here, let me remind everyone that PvE Impen is literally the old Sturdy, aka "one of the trash tier traits" nobody wanted?

Divines Sapphire Sapphire Increases Mundus Stone effects.
Exploration Garnet Garnet Increase exploration XP gain.
Impenetrable Diamond Diamond Reduces the damage you take from Critical Strikes.
Infused Bloodstone Bloodstone Increase Armor Enchantment effect.
Nirnhoned Fortified Nirncrux Fortified Nirncrux Increases Spell Resistance.
Reinforced Sardonyx Sardonyx Increases Armor.
Sturdy Quartz Quartz Item takes less durability damage.
Training Emerald Emerald Increase Armor Skill Line XP gain.
Well Fitted Almandine Almandine Reduces the Stamina cost of Sprinting.

Of the former armor traits, Exploration, Sturdy, Training, Well Fitted and (depending on role) Reinforced were all considered trash tier traits the same as everyone likes to think of Training/Propserous right now. Don't pretend Impen is now amazing for PvE because it has the old Study shoved into it, nobody would want the old Sturdy back so don't try and sell it to us. We don't want it.

It was vendor trash then, for PvE Impen is vendor trash now. If you want Zenimax to make PvE mobs in Cryodill/Imperial City drop any set in Impen, by all means, but don't make my Vet Dungeons drop PvP gear.

Way to go quoting only one part of my statement. I already said if I had to choose between Impen, Training and Prosperous because I lack Divines, I'd take Impen anytime. Not that I actually do that as I obviously have full Divines gear. It was just an example of a situation where Impen > Training/Prosperous in a PvE situation.

Impen reduces your repair cost by reducing the amount of times you need to repair. That is a completely valid statement.

Your posed a loaded statement in which all of the options are terrible for raiding to begin with: you wouldn't turn up in reduce block or reduce sprint gear as a DPS either, so it's really kind of meaningless. In the case of "no Divines/Infused" for a raid everything would pretty much be junk anyway and you could make an argument for anything... full Training for huge raid exp why not? If you're raiding you're not going to be too broke to afford repairs to begin with, so going full Impen isn't some holy grail just personal choice.

I would agree, if as already said repair cost was a big deal: it's not, the highest repair cost I've ever had by destroying basically everything was 1900 gold. This isn't SWTOR where it can blow out above 30k, that's a really low amount of gold even by really low gold income standards.

If Impen = less repair = less gold spent is valid, then Prosperous = more gold gained = more gold to spend on repair + everything else is just as valid. Yet apparently it isn't valid, because OMG PROPEROUS.

When did I say the other traits are valid or not valid? I provided an example (which is actually realistic depending on your RNG luck) where Impen > Training/Prosperous in a PvE environment. I never said it becomes viable just because of that. Same as Wellfitted, Sturdy, Training, Prosperous, Reinforced, Nirnhoned are trash compared to Divines. But that is a whole other matter.


YOU said Impen has no use in PvE. People have proven to you that there is scenarios where Impen has use in PvE, same or even more than training/prosperous. It doesn't change the fact that all three traits are garbage traits for PvE end game gear, but the point still stands. Impen is not a strict PvP trait. Is has a bad PvE component which is not necessarily better, but also not necessarily worse than Training or Prosperous (or Nirn, Well Fitted and to some extent sturdy and reinforced depending on weight and build) on end game gear from a PvE point of view. However, it is the most important trait for PvP, which is why a lot of people are asking for its reintroduction. I don't see why that is so much of an issue for you.

You feel like you don't want it to drop in YOUR dungeons?
Well I do PvE and PvP and I want Impen to drop in MY dungeons.
Such an argumentation is simply bad.

You seem to be argueing for the sake of an argument and to spread negativity, toxicity and feelings of needing to separate PvP and PvE completely, which was never intended by the devs in the first place.

YOU said Impen has no use in PvE. People have proven to you that there is scenarios where Impen has use in PvE, same or even more than training/prosperous. It doesn't change the fact that all three traits are garbage traits for PvE end game gear, but the point still stands. Impen is not a strict PvP trait. Is has a bad PvE component which is not necessarily better, but also not necessarily worse than Training or Prosperous (or Nirn, Well Fitted and to some extent sturdy and reinforced depending on weight and build) on end game gear from a PvE point of view. However, it is the most important trait for PvP, which is why a lot of people are asking for its reintroduction. I don't see why that is so much of an issue for you.

Nobody has "proven" anything; if anything trying to argue that a full set of Training is WORSE than a full set of Impen in PvE is downright laughable even to a noob like me. Yes yes, it has the old Sturdy trait... that everyone hated and nobody has responded to yet (LOL). Just repeating your opinion does not make it fact, especially not if it's the anti-Training/Prosperous opinion because people will jump on the hate bandwagon just because they hate those traits. Well I hate most of the traits, doesn't mean I'm asking for them to be removed. I will however argue against having a Dev-removed trait RE-ADDED, cluttering up an already overcrowded RNG pool with more vendor trash.

I didn't remove Impen, nor did you. The devs did, and gave their reasoning for it... "but they're morons for doing that!" well again that's just opinion, but I can easily get the logic of PvE mobs don't crit, so a Crit-reduction trait shouldn't drop in PvE.

Personally I'm not against Impen being available, just not in PvE. Impen is vendor trash as a PvE drop, I don't want it to have been removed for being that then just re-added because PvPers want to farm it doing their Undaunted Dailies. Make Impen drop in PvP areas, not from PvE mobs and questing. Another Impen drop is just as useless as Well-Fitted on my DPS and so on, it only clutters up the RNG even more. And the RNG is already terrible. Adding more traits will not improve it.

Transairion wrote: »

YOU said Impen has no use in PvE. People have proven to you that there is scenarios where Impen has use in PvE, same or even more than training/prosperous. It doesn't change the fact that all three traits are garbage traits for PvE end game gear, but the point still stands. Impen is not a strict PvP trait. Is has a bad PvE component which is not necessarily better, but also not necessarily worse than Training or Prosperous (or Nirn, Well Fitted and to some extent sturdy and reinforced depending on weight and build) on end game gear from a PvE point of view. However, it is the most important trait for PvP, which is why a lot of people are asking for its reintroduction. I don't see why that is so much of an issue for you.

Nobody has "proven" anything; if anything trying to argue that a full set of Training is WORSE than a full set of Impen in PvE is downright laughable even to a noob like me. Yes yes, it has the old Sturdy trait... that everyone hated and nobody has responded to yet (LOL). Just repeating your opinion does not make it fact, especially not if it's the anti-Training/Prosperous opinion because people will jump on the hate bandwagon just because they hate those traits. Well I hate most of the traits, doesn't mean I'm asking for them to be removed. I will however argue against having a Dev-removed trait RE-ADDED, cluttering up an already overcrowded RNG pool with more vendor trash.

I didn't remove Impen, nor did you. The devs did, and gave their reasoning for it... "but they're morons for doing that!" well again that's just opinion, but I can easily get the logic of PvE mobs don't crit, so a Crit-reduction trait shouldn't drop in PvE.

Personally I'm not against Impen being available, just not in PvE. Impen is vendor trash as a PvE drop, I don't want it to have been removed for being that then just re-added because PvPers want to farm it doing their Undaunted Dailies. Make Impen drop in PvP areas, not from PvE mobs and questing. Another Impen drop is just as useless as Well-Fitted on my DPS and so on, it only clutters up the RNG even more. And the RNG is already terrible. Adding more traits will not improve it.

I never said a full impen set up is better or worse than a full training set up. They are both trash and no one with half a brain is going to run either.
I said one piece of impen may actually be more favorable than one piece of training or prosperous. For example, I have had for ages an Impen Kena helmet. I also had it training and sturdy. I still wear the impen over the other traits because hey, if that means it breaks down less (which it does a lot in vMoL HM if you ever even tried that) it's already more worth than getting a bit of exp more, especially considering how I am hundreds of CPs above the cap and will never be able to spend them anyway. So yes, there is scenarios where you go with Impen simply because it doesn't actually matter, all traits are trash anyway compared to Divines.

The issue now with Impen not dropping in PvE is that a lot of the sets from dungeons (old and new ones) have no legit use in PvE. Why would someone wear Amber Plasm in PvE? Why would someone use Dragon Guard? Why Syrabane? And many others.
Those are all new or newly upscaled sets which drop only in PvE but have no use whatsoever for a serious PvE build because there is only a handful of sets which are actually useful for PvE and those few outperform everything else by a lot. (Stuff like Spellpowercure, Julianos, Hundings, TBS and a few more).
But those sets have legitimately use in PvP. It's simply a waste not to hand them out in Impen. It's a waste of possible build variety. It's a waste of potential customers. And potential players to do dungeons with.
Impen would make a lot of people happy, unlike training and prosperous. Ofc others who don't PvP at all would be unhappy with an impen drop, but they wouldn't be happier with training or prosperous either.

But you know what? I am done with this unreasonable discussion with you. There is no point. You don't see what is more healthier to the whole population. You only see your own limited perspective where you want to confine new gear which you and many other PvEers will most likely never use in PvE.

Wollust wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Impen is strictly a PVP trait, hence should only be available as a drop from the PvP vendor. Frankly, I'm glad that one less useless trait is removed from the loot table for PvE players. You get to spend a paltry amount of AP and choose the EXACT type of monster piece you want (heavy, light, etc.). You are in no position to be complaining.

Your argumentation is flawed in many ways.

1. Impen is not strictly a PvP trait, it has a PvE component which is more valuable than Prosperous and Training (on endgame gear).
2. We can buy once a week one random piece. We just had twice in a row Maw of the Infernal. We do not have enough chances of buying the required item therefore compared to simply farming it. So there is reason to complain. If we want to farm it by doing dungeons, why prevent that?
Also, PvEers can buy the undaunted sets as well with an Infused trait for gold. Therefore the vendor is not strictly PvP but made for the whole population and both play styles. Why not separate here if we are already separating the play styles through loot tables?
3. This is not only about the monster sets but about every set which has no fixed trait on it. Including the new sets on PTS.

My argument isn't flawed in any way. Impen is useless for PvE - reduced armor damage? That's not needed at all: repair costs are cheap and frequently dying is not a PvE strategy. Secondly, 100k gold is far harder to grind than 200k AP - I would know, as I had done it many times before the update. I didn't complain about it, I simply paid gold and moved on. Infused is better for PvE and gold is farmable in PvE. AP is easily attained and gear for sale with Impen (a PvP trait) is available.

You complain that RNG makes it hard to complete sets, but PvE players that want Divines are in the same boat, except they can't control the armor weight of a piece of an ideal traited piece like PvP players can. If PvE players want Divines Medium or Light, they have to go play the Undaunted Slots. You can just stroll up to that cat and pick the weight you want.

Please... For some reason, nearly every woman I hit on in the game has the Impenetrable trait...