The Firesong DLC and Update 36 base game patch are now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts

What exactly is a "Vestige"?

Locksheon
Locksheon
✭✭✭
So I've been diving head first into 2nd Era lore.

TL;DR What remains of the original player character after being sacrificed by Mannimarco? And what exactly happens to your soul afterward?

This is some complicated lore, but from what I understand we were all sacrificed to Molag Bal either by Mannimarco himself, or by cultists who worship Molag Bal in one form or another. (Worm Cult / Bloodthorns)

After that, our souls are captured in a soul gem and "exchanged" for a Vestige. Since Daedra cannot create, a Vestige is supposed to be like a fragment of your soul that is left out, right? (The word vestige means partial or incomplete) But the only information I can find says the souls are "exchanged for a Vestige." Can someone explain that?

The vestige then draws something called "Creatia" to it in order to create a new body for itself. Again, if I understand this properly, creatia in Coldharbour appears as Azure Plasm, and even then, there are two types: Ordered creatia and Chaotic creatia.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Molog Bal relies on ordered creatia to produce your typical soul-shiven, but sometimes chaotic creatia creates a new perfect copy of the original body (either by the soul's force of will, or as some sort of interference by the spirit of Nirn) and that is what we are as player characters; a perfect copy of who we were in life. But, if my soul is exchanged for a vestige, and a copy of my body is running around, what exactly remains of the original me?

Now I have some minor questions that are a little more direct.

1. After rescuing the prophet, he says we need to "re-attune my soul to Nirn" using a shard of Aetherius. But wouldn't that just bind me to Aetherius?

2. If we're a vestige within the azure plasm body, which is attuned to Coldharbour, does that make us some sort of daedra being?

3. Finally, how many vestige type players are there is in the world? Am I like "the chosen one" like the dragonborn of skyrim? Or is this a phenomenon in which many of us are resistant to becoming soul-shriven?
Edited by Locksheon on June 23, 2016 4:09PM
www.twitch.tv/locksheon
  • Eporem
    Eporem
    ✭✭✭
    Hello,

    Your questions are very similar to the ones I had when I first began to read of the lore. I was given links to read that explained more about souls which I still refer to and have included them in case you have not seen them before. What really happens to souls when they are sent to Coldharbour or how this is explained in the articles is still a bit confusing to me so I only speculate on this.

    In this link, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Soulburst

    It tells that not all were necessarily sacrificed to Molag Bal when the Soul Burst occurred, though Molag Bal and his cults did seize this opportunity to begin disconnecting the souls of Nirn from their hosts in his attempt to merge his realm of Coldharbour with Nirn.

    This link, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Vestige_(soul) - under Soul Shriven,

    tells more of what happens to a soul when it reaches Coldharbour.

    I speculate, or how I make sense of this for now, is that when a soul is stolen by Molag Bal what is taken is the piece or essence that is able to create (Anuic) and is replaced with an essence of change (Padomay) or what is called the vestige.

    From this link, http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Chaotic_Creatia:_The_Azure_Plasm

    It mentions that Azure Plasm is chaotic creatia, “Daedra bodies are formed from the very stuff of Chaos”. The article also mentions again the Soul Shriven,

    "Then there are the poor slaves known as the Soul Shriven. Each is a mortal kidnapped from Mundus at the moment of death, his or her soul stolen by Molag Bal for some unthinkable purpose, and given in exchange the vestige that enables him or her to form a counterfeit body here in Coldharbour. But they are not native to Oblivion, so a Soul Shriven's body is a sad imitation of the body worn in life, suffering rapid wear and decay until it dies—a death that is no liberation, for its vestige only forms a body once again, over and over, ad infinitum.."
    .
    This might answer your question on why the prophet says “we need to re-attune your body” when you reach the anchor and he creates a skyshard that holds a piece of Aetherius. Maybe this is the ordered creatia you mentioned before.

    And because I speculate that what was stolen is the piece of the soul that is able to create, I do think we are some sort of daedra until we are able to retrieve this stolen piece from Molag Bal.

    For your third question I think the amount of vestige type players that are in the world would depend on who might be playing soulless ones. I do not think there is only one in ESO, though maybe there was only one before the Elder Scrolls became a multiplayer game.

    I hope this helps.
    Edited by Eporem on June 24, 2016 12:57PM
  • Locksheon
    Locksheon
    ✭✭✭
    I really appreciate those links. Admittedly, however, I've already read everything you posted! :smile:
    In digging even deeper, I found a lot more information in various posts here on the forums too.
    I think I'm becoming more at peace with the ideas ZoS has presented, but I do wish it were spelled out a bit more.

    The terms "animus", "morphotype", and "vestige", for example, seem interchangeable to describe the daedra equivalent of a 'soul', but their actual definitions are very different.
    Animus being defined as an intense dislike or hatred -and- as motive, intention, or purpose
    morphotype is a foreign grouping; a thing that is different from others. Basically meaning "a thing derived from the essence of Padomay, God of Chaos and Change".
    Vestige is a piece or a fragment of something bigger.

    So when you combine those three terms, you get the truth of a Deadric 'soul'.
    The Vestige is a Padomaic essence that carries a piece of the hate-fueled motivation of the Daedra within it.


    My end determination based on what I've read (including what you just said about "what is taken is the piece or essence that is able to create (Anuic)" ) is that our souls and our personalities/memories are not the same thing.
    There seem to be 3 layers of a Nirn inhabitant.

    (Body)- which can die and be reformed by creatia of various types.
    (Consciousness)- Which is immortal and can be separated from the Body, Soul, or both.
    (Soul)- Which does not serve as an identifying personality trait, but rather as a 'energy', 'will', or 'purpose' for the body, and as a vehicle to move the consciousness to Aetherius upon death.)

    Therefore, if the soul is removed, the body still retains a consciousness and personality but is indeed trapped in this life.
    And if the soul is replaced with the vestige, the vestige simply carries the Consciousness back to Oblivion, where Azure Plasm creates a new body.

    Finally, after trying to understand creatia, I eventually determined that it is the Elder Scrolls equivalent of matter.
    We know matter as physical substances comprised of atoms.
    In Elder Scrolls, matter is called Creatia, and depending on what plane of existence you're on, the matter that creates the world can either be Padomaic (Oblivion matter) or Anuic (Atherius matter). And since Mundus was created from Atherius, Anuic matter is what forms Nirn.
    Edited by Locksheon on June 24, 2016 11:17PM
    www.twitch.tv/locksheon
  • Lunarhound
    Lunarhound
    ✭✭✭
    This is a very good explanation. I've been curious myself, for a while, how exactly this was supposed to work, but never really bothered to look into it. While initially strange, the idea that consciousness and soul wouldn't necessarily go together actually makes an odd kind of sense when looked at the right way.
  • Van_0S
    Van_0S
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Vestige is a trace or remnant of something that is disappearing or no longer exists ,more like a ghost.

    OP, its more or less like dark souls.
    Edited by Van_0S on June 25, 2016 6:12PM
  • Eporem
    Eporem
    ✭✭✭
    I too found myself reading more of souls and since I liked how you took words and gave them definitions Locksheon, I did this as well.:) the end result I feel is the same as the one you have determined, though a little different through some of the definitions. It is a perspective that might probably change again as I think there is much more lore I have yet to read.

    Animus - spirit – "rational soul, mind, life, mental powers; courage, desire,"

    Morphotype - Vestiges (biology) Local variety of a species, distinguishable from other populations of the species by morphology or behavior – something that has been morphed/changed.

    Pattern: something repeated; (atoms, molecules, or ions) are packed in a regularly ordered, repeating pattern. - Matter

    Inherent: existing in someone or something as a permanent and inseparable element, quality, or attribute – the elements of the two who came from the void Padomay and Anuic.

    Body – Created with inherent patterns

    Soul – Mortality (can be manipulated, destroyed, used for other things) created by the Et’Ada with the more Anuic elements.

    From these definitions:
    Aedra – have Animus, Body, Soul
    Daedra – have Animus, Body

    ……

    So…when a soul is stolen in Coldharbour, the more Anuic element is taken as well, leaving a body with Animus still, though with its inherent patterns changed to a more Padomay pattern, (a vestige, (morphotype)) and until their body and animus is able to attune again with the pattern of Anuic, which for the soul shriven in the Wailing prison was a skyshard created with an element of Atherius they are bound to Molag Bal.


    Also, when searching for lore articles of souls, I came across one that I loved reading and wanted to share. It is about Sheogorath. I see him now in such a different way after reading this and realized too that Daedra are not all chaotic.

    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Jyggalag


    Edited by Eporem on June 28, 2016 6:37PM
  • Izaki
    Izaki
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Vestige is a french word used in english also, but maybe with different meanings, I don't know as I'm not english. :smiley: So I came across this word when studying a text for my end-of-year university exams, so obviously I got all hyped up about the ESO storyline. So according to Larousse dictionnary (french power [snip]), Vestige comes from vestigium in latin, a masculine noun meaning in french : Marque laissée par quelque chose qui a été détruit, ce qui reste du passé, d'un sentiment, d'une idée, etc.

    Which literally means : the remains of something that was destroyed, what is left of the past, of a feeling, of a idea. So in this case the remains of a destroyed soul or what is left of a soul hence the name Soul-Shriven. I do not have any idea as to what role this plays in the lore.
    Edited by ZOS_KatP on February 6, 2018 9:42PM
    @ Izaki #PCEU
    #FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
    #MoreDPSthanYou
    #Stamblade
  • Eporem
    Eporem
    ✭✭✭
    Its meaning is similiar I think to how this word is used in ESO.
    Edited by Eporem on June 28, 2016 6:40PM
  • Lokryn
    Lokryn
    ✭✭✭✭
    Locksheon wrote: »
    So I've been diving head first into 2nd Era lore.


    Now I have some minor questions that are a little more direct.

    1. After rescuing the prophet, he says we need to "re-attune my soul to Nirn" using a shard of Aetherius. But wouldn't that just bind me to Aetherius?

    2. If we're a vestige within the azure plasm body, which is attuned to Coldharbour, does that make us some sort of daedra being?

    3. Finally, how many vestige type players are there is in the world? Am I like "the chosen one" like the dragonborn of skyrim? Or is this a phenomenon in which many of us are resistant to becoming soul-shriven?

    1. It binds you to Nirn because it's re-attuning you to anuic magic. See below.

    http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Skyshard

    2. Yes and no. Our origins are different. Lesser daedra don't have an anuic aspect like mortals do.

    See below:

    It has been suggested that the soul shriven experience this effect because mortals require an Anuic principle to maintain their forms. In this case, there might exist "paragon" mortals with an additional Anuic aspect, who would retain their forms and sanity after becoming soul shriven, while still becoming immortal. This hypothesis was confirmed during the Planemeld, during which some mortals became capable of fighting to defend Nirn even without a soul.

    3. The player characters as a whole are the "paragon mortals with an additional Anuic aspec" mentioned above. However, in the story, you are "The Soulless One". In roleplay terms, not everyone can be this individual. It is widely accepted that you can still roleplay as a soul shriven though and mention The Vestige as a separate individual that defeated Molag Bal which allowed you to get your soul back.

Sign In or Register to comment.