THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PAY TO WIN AND PAY FOR EXTRA HARMLESS PERKS

cyclonus11 · June 2016

How does experience boosts and craft bags give someone a combat advantage over their enemies?

NolaArch · June 2016

All,
I am looking to put together a group for veteran MoL achievements/completion. MUST have craft bag. No exceptions. CP any level, so long as you have the advantageous craft bag.

Hellbender27 · June 2016

FloppyTouch wrote: »

Is this a troll post? I'm bad with sarcasm.

AHAHAAAH RIGHT!???

Acrolas · June 2016

FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »

Some people need to L2Adult and stop crying over nothing. Crafting bags are pure convenience. Nothing more, nothing less. No advantage is gained over owning one.

Then you'd have a neutral attitude toward it. Your defensiveness is giving the crafting bag value, which is defeating your argument.

cyclonus11 wrote: »

How does experience boosts and craft bags give someone a combat advantage over their enemies?

The $1.2 trillion China owns in US debt gives it no real combat advantage.
But it dumped some of that debt to stabilize its own economy.

There are three global advantages: religious, economic, and combat. Looking at everything from just a combat perspective is... short-sighted...

Pomaikai · June 2016

And the whinefest continues.....

My ability to sympathize with people who don't understand business and sound business practices has come to an end. So all these threads now get is a great big, "Tough Luck! L2S (Learn2Subscribe)!

Pity party in 3, 2, 1...........

Mavor · June 2016

Is the OP serious? xO

Pay to win is and always will be - the ability to aquire a significant advantage over other players via spending real life cash. Period. Thats the bottom line.

A 10% xp bonus is not a significant advantage over other players. Its actually no advantage over other players aside from being able to reach max level quicker. And if you want to play the whole 'they level faster so they have an advantage over me in pvp' card - do yourself a favor and just dont.

And a crafting inventory is somehow pay to win? Really? How does that crafting bag give you help you vs other players? Can you hit them with it? Does it buff you? Nope. It does absolutely nothing but hold materials. Its a convenience, period.

Paying for new content, DLC and expansions is never pay to win - doesnt matter if they contain better gear. Claiming as such is just grasping at straws. *Most* games DLC costs something. Under this description, most the games that have ever had DLC are pay to win...see how silly this gets?

This pay to win bullstein is tired, worn thin and old. It comes up in every game these days. For the love of all thats good, let it rest already.

FLuFFyxMuFFiN · June 2016

Acrolas wrote: »

FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »

Some people need to L2Adult and stop crying over nothing. Crafting bags are pure convenience. Nothing more, nothing less. No advantage is gained over owning one.

Then you'd have a neutral attitude toward it. Your defensiveness is giving the crafting bag value, which is defeating your argument.

cyclonus11 wrote: »

How does experience boosts and craft bags give someone a combat advantage over their enemies?

The $1.2 trillion China owns in US debt gives it no real combat advantage.
But it dumped some of that debt to stabilize its own economy.

There are three global advantages: religious, economic, and combat. Looking at everything from just a combat perspective is... short-sighted...

I'm against nonsubs getting the bags btw. They just need to stop crying P2W. And how exactly does that analogy apply to this game?

idk · June 2016

Acrolas wrote: »

Silver_Strider wrote: »

crafting bags, while nice, don't give any real advantage in a competitive sense.

Story time, kids.

Once upon a time, there were two companies.

One company could only produce as many goods as a retailer ordered, and only with their limited resources.
The other company owned warehouses and could store as much inventory as it wanted to and could produce year-round.

In a few years, the company with warehouses bought out the other company and took its contracts. Retailers liked the convenience of ordering any time, and customers liked not having to wait a longer time for goods.

So anyone who says that crafting bags aren't a competitive advantage is either living in a bubble or doesn't want to emphasize an advantage they're already using in game.

Oh, the competitive advantage line.

Attempting to claim those that disagree with you are clueless merely demonstrates the weakness of your argument. It's never good to put others down in an attempt to "win".

Is honestly suggest getting over the crafting bags. If it's that big of a deal for you start subscribing or find another game because it's not going to change anytime soon.

Acrolas · June 2016

FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »

I'm against nonsubs getting the bags btw. They just need to stop crying P2W. And how exactly does that analogy apply to this game?

Ask me again on September 28.

You know, since we have to L2Adult and all...

RandalMarrs · June 2016

Omg another thread about this. It is not pay to win! Stop finding ways to shoehorn the same tired argument into new threads.

Acrolas · June 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Attempting to claim those that disagree with you are clueless merely demonstrates the weakness of your argument. It's never good to put others down in an attempt to "win".

But they are ignorant. Because combat is not the only endgame this game has.
That's their argument. It's an ignorant argument because it ignores or tries to discredit the endgame alternatives.
Crafting bags are an economic advantage. Otherwise there would be no argument. There would be nothing of value at stake.

Some of us can just see through the bull *** and call it out for what it is. A bunch of self-righteous subscribers being misleading in their arguments.

Subscriptions are turning into a religious advantage because it's creating a tribe of like-minded people who shame people who think differently than they do. How about that argument? Do I need to join the Cult of ZOS to win the game?

Apparently I do now.

FLuFFyxMuFFiN · June 2016

Acrolas wrote: »

FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »

I'm against nonsubs getting the bags btw. They just need to stop crying P2W. And how exactly does that analogy apply to this game?

Ask me again on September 28.

You know, since we have to L2Adult and all...

Yes people do need to L2Adult because crying over a video game is definitely not what an adult should be doing. And your analogy is pretty damn stupid because how am I gonna have a religious advantage over others or an economic advantage from having a crafting bag?

RandalMarrs · June 2016

Wow, who is being misleading. Pay to win? Smh.

WanderingJarlPuncher · June 2016

Xundiin wrote: »

This thread is a joke. Unless you played games like ArcheAge or Shaiya, you don't know what Pay to win is.... you just think you do. As the OP clearly is displaying a lack of knowledge on what it actually is.

played maplestory, dungeon fighter online, aio, EQ before and after pay to win, eso before anjd after pay to win. SWG gw1-2

gard · June 2016

CokeVoAYCE wrote: »

seems a lot of people don't understand this.

pay to win is simply: subbing makes the game easier
pay for extra perks is: subbing for extra dyes, costumes, and other cosmetics

pay to win includes: xp bonus, craft bags
pay for harmless perks include anything that doesn't affect gameplay

so yes, that 10% bonus to xp is paying to win. i don't have much of a problem with it because it's only paying to make the game 10% easier which isn't that much. but i did have a problem with craft bags and the direction it looks like ESO's going.

One man's pay to win is another man's pay to avoid mundane s***.

idk · June 2016

Acrolas wrote: »

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Attempting to claim those that disagree with you are clueless merely demonstrates the weakness of your argument. It's never good to put others down in an attempt to "win".

But they are ignorant. Because combat is not the only endgame this game has.
That's their argument. It's an ignorant argument because it ignores or tries to discredit the endgame alternatives.
Crafting bags are an economic advantage. Otherwise there would be no argument. There would be nothing of value at stake.

Some of us can just see through the bull *** and call it out for what it is. A bunch of self-righteous subscribers being misleading in their arguments.

Subscriptions are turning into a religious advantage because it's creating a tribe of like-minded people who shame people who think differently than they do. How about that argument? Do I need to join the Cult of ZOS to win the game?

Apparently I do now.

There is no crafting competition. How much crafting matts one has doesn't help them clear content better or conquer other alliances in cyrodiil.

As such the argument that crafting bags is P2W is feeble at best, really just plain fail.

Zos may a great business decision and your being upset about this merely strengthens their position that the crafting bag is a great subscriber perk. People really want it so more will sub. Of course, not everyone.

Saturn · June 2016

I remember the OP's name just from ridiculous things like this in /zone in Stormhaven.

If you think ESO+ is pay to win, then you have seen nothing. Of MMOs with Pay-to-win aspects ESO is just about at the bottom of the scale as it can get. There are MMOs that have such ridiculous pay-to-win aspects in them, and here you are saying 10% exp and the crafting bag (?), both of which add no gameplay advantage, are P2W. This is one of those situations where if this is what you feel the need to complain about, then there really isn't anything wrong and you are just complaining because you lack something better to do.

Xundiin · June 2016

WanderingJarlPuncher wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

This thread is a joke. Unless you played games like ArcheAge or Shaiya, you don't know what Pay to win is.... you just think you do. As the OP clearly is displaying a lack of knowledge on what it actually is.

played maplestory, dungeon fighter online, aio, EQ before and after pay to win, eso before anjd after pay to win. SWG gw1-2

And... you expect me to be impressed?

Still doesn't change the fact ESO isn't pay2win. Claiming the crafting bag is P2W... is like claiming the reason you lost the race is because the guy who won payed 10 dollars more for his running shoes..... it's that *** stupid. It's not pay to win... having better inventory management doesn't make you better at PVP, PVE, or collecting gold. It sure as hell doesn't make you a better crafter. it may make you a more efficient crafter.... but I didn't need the crafting bags to be efficient.

FLuFFyxMuFFiN · June 2016

Xundiin wrote: »

WanderingJarlPuncher wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

This thread is a joke. Unless you played games like ArcheAge or Shaiya, you don't know what Pay to win is.... you just think you do. As the OP clearly is displaying a lack of knowledge on what it actually is.

played maplestory, dungeon fighter online, aio, EQ before and after pay to win, eso before anjd after pay to win. SWG gw1-2

And... you expect me to be impressed?

Still doesn't change the fact ESO isn't pay2win. Claiming the crafting bag is P2W... is like claiming the reason you lost the race is because the guy who won payed 10 dollars more for his running shoes..... it's that *** stupid. It's not pay to win... having better inventory management doesn't make you better at PVP, PVE, or collecting gold. It sure as hell doesn't make you a better crafter. it may make you a more efficient crafter.... but I didn't need the crafting bags to be efficient.

Its not use arguing with these people. They are just going to cry P2W as an attempt to get attention and for people to feel sorry for them. Any smart person knows that the bags are not P2W so I say just let the ignorant remain ignorant.

WanderingJarlPuncher · June 2016

also slight heads up, vcoke is a known troll on Dc faction

MuddledMuppet · June 2016

CokeVoAYCE wrote: »

xxxdcxxx wrote: »

I dont know whether this is p2w or not but I think ZoS is starting to make this game P2W !

whether craft bags is too far or not it definitely seems to be heading in a scary direction. if ZOS thinks they'll make more money incrementally making it more and more beneficial to become ESO+ to the point where eventually if you aren't ESO+ the game will be much more difficult for you then we could be in big trouble.

Yes. SO many people will be in big trouble due to not having full freedom in dying costumes. Why don't more people get this?

Vinther · June 2016

To OP:

Just don't play the game if it does not align with your freeloader mentality.
I think sub fees should be mandatory to support ZOS and Bethesda.

If you don't wanna pay for a product you are enjoying then don't blame the others who do.

Bye.

Taleof2Cities · June 2016

Vinther wrote: »

To OP:

Just don't play the game if it does not align with your freeloader mentality.
I think sub fees should be mandatory to support ZOS and Bethesda.

If you don't wanna pay for a product you are enjoying then don't blame the others who do.

Bye.

Where is the OP by the way ... has not responded since page 1 of the thread ...

FLuFFyxMuFFiN · June 2016

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Vinther wrote: »

To OP:

Just don't play the game if it does not align with your freeloader mentality.
I think sub fees should be mandatory to support ZOS and Bethesda.

If you don't wanna pay for a product you are enjoying then don't blame the others who do.

Bye.

Where is the OP by the way ... has not responded since page 1 of the thread ...

Of somewhere thinking they are the greatest troll in the history of their mom's basement

CokeVoAYCE · June 2016

FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Vinther wrote: »

To OP:

Just don't play the game if it does not align with your freeloader mentality.
I think sub fees should be mandatory to support ZOS and Bethesda.

If you don't wanna pay for a product you are enjoying then don't blame the others who do.

Bye.

Where is the OP by the way ... has not responded since page 1 of the thread ...

Of somewhere thinking they are the greatest troll in the history of their mom's basement

where does this "mom's basement" stereotype come from for trolls? why not an attic? or a dungeon? or the living room? i reside in my mother's kitchen, tyvm.

FLuFFyxMuFFiN · June 2016

CokeVoAYCE wrote: »

FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Vinther wrote: »

To OP:

Just don't play the game if it does not align with your freeloader mentality.
I think sub fees should be mandatory to support ZOS and Bethesda.

If you don't wanna pay for a product you are enjoying then don't blame the others who do.

Bye.

Where is the OP by the way ... has not responded since page 1 of the thread ...

Of somewhere thinking they are the greatest troll in the history of their mom's basement

where does this "mom's basement" stereotype come from for trolls? why not an attic? or a dungeon? or the living room? i reside in my mother's kitchen, tyvm.

My apologies! It was wrong of me to assume the "mom's basement" stereotype. Please forgive my ignorance.

idk · June 2016

FLuFFyxMuFFiN wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

WanderingJarlPuncher wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

This thread is a joke. Unless you played games like ArcheAge or Shaiya, you don't know what Pay to win is.... you just think you do. As the OP clearly is displaying a lack of knowledge on what it actually is.

played maplestory, dungeon fighter online, aio, EQ before and after pay to win, eso before anjd after pay to win. SWG gw1-2

And... you expect me to be impressed?

Still doesn't change the fact ESO isn't pay2win. Claiming the crafting bag is P2W... is like claiming the reason you lost the race is because the guy who won payed 10 dollars more for his running shoes..... it's that *** stupid. It's not pay to win... having better inventory management doesn't make you better at PVP, PVE, or collecting gold. It sure as hell doesn't make you a better crafter. it may make you a more efficient crafter.... but I didn't need the crafting bags to be efficient.

Its not use arguing with these people. They are just going to cry P2W as an attempt to get attention and for people to feel sorry for them. Any smart person knows that the bags are not P2W so I say just let the ignorant remain ignorant.

Have to agree. The P2W argument is rather absurd and desperate. Just like calling subscribers explaining logic about the bags is being self righteous and referring to subscribers and a Cult of Zos is preposterous.

I do have to say some of the comments he has made have been humorous.

Animal_Mother · June 2016

I thought Pay-2-Win was paying cash for BiS equipment and "I Win" buttons. I learn something new, everyday.

Elsonso · June 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Just like calling subscribers explaining logic about the bags is being self righteous and referring to subscribers and a Cult of Zos is preposterous.

Wait. Stop the train. We have a cult? WHY WAS I NOT TOLD ABOUT THIS!

Vinther wrote: »

I think sub fees should be mandatory to support ZOS and Bethesda.

I agree with this statement, but not for the same reason.

I think ZOS is making more money now as B2P than any of their projections showed under a full subscription plan. Honestly. Not only do I think that are people subscribing to the game in significant numbers, but I bet a fair portion of those subscribers are also buying Crown packs. People who are not subscribers are buying Crown packs because they see it as a cheaper way to play what they want in the game. This gets subscriptions from people, extra cash from the subscribers, and also gets cash from people who do not think it is worth subscribing.

Every morning, the maintenance staff goes into Firor's office, strips off the gold leaf covering the walls, throws it away, and puts new gold leaf up. His solid gold and diamond flecked floor tiles are replaced weekly, earlier if they get scuffed.

No, my reason for wanting full subscription is simply because I think that the Crown Store is an irresistible temptation for the company. I feel that this has cheapened the overall quality of the game. In a subscription game, they have to make the game really good to attract and maintain subscribers, and if this is done right, it is good for both the players and the company. In a Cash Shop game, the the focus is on bling, not making the game really good, because that is what brings in revenue.

It is this irresistible temptation that can lead to P2W if the wrong people in the studio make the "wrong" decisions. I put "wrong" in quotes because, to them, it is the "right" decision. The difference is that they are not trying to make a really good game, they are trying to make a really good cash shop.

A Company has no "moral fiber," so they cannot stand for something and have that endure. They can change course immediately, and without warning, simply with a change in management structure, if even that.

MrTijger · June 2016

I'm a new player and I looked long and hard at subbing, the XP gain helps me as new player because I get a handle on levelling quicker, I over level a bit so a mistake doesn't kill me right away, for me that's a pure QoL benefit.

Craft bag, definitely QoL, I could manage without but this just makes my life easier, just like the XP benefit.

Dyes, again, QoL, doesn't give me wins or advantages.

Now we come to the one reason I subbed: DLC's. Comparing the cost of the DLC's in the store versus subbing I found that for me, someone who tends to spend a lot of time in a game, the DLC access is what decided the issue for me. The Crown store gold is nice but cosmetic and I used it to get the Imperial race and all races all pacts upgrade.

So, P2W? Not from my viewpoint.