THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PAY TO WIN AND PAY FOR EXTRA HARMLESS PERKS

juhasman · June 2016

Clerics1985 wrote: »

juhasman wrote: »

Clerics1985 wrote: »

...vampire/wherewolf bites // Mount upgrades crafting assistants For right now, until we get the New, CP per lvl to match the mount upgrades ^.^

Yyym yes of course vampire/werewolf bite which i can get for free or for 5k gold in game from other players. Mount upgrades? Yes of course if You spend 3/4 of Your playtime on horse and You play less then 3 months(this is time to max all horse stats). Assistants? Yes of course it takes limitless hours to teleport to the nearest town.

obviously you haven't played much PvP

Well i havn't played much PvP on horse that I must admit. I preffer fight with my feets on the ground

And on my Stam Sorc Orc in medium I am able to chase people on maxed horses on my feets

Drishtan · June 2016

Ur an ass hat.
Do you know how much a free to play game generates in revenue?
Do you know how much it cost to keep this game going?
Do you know how much it cost to actually still have a support team, how ever horrible they are, and how much it costs to employ them?
Do you know how much it costs to run and maintain a server?
How much it cost for internet?
I could go on and on...

If the game is to survive and thrive how can this happen without money?

Now ask yourself this question? How far is to far for this Concept Pay to Win?

Pay to Win in AN MMO has always been using cash to buy Weapons and Armor which are more powerful than typical items. You can't do either of this in ESO. You can buy style mats which make it look pretty but do nothing for gameplay.

I can go and on but already ive lost interest in explaining how the world works and how there is a fine line when it comes to balance and I have to say ZOS has done a pretty damn good job at that at least, cant say that much about other things they do lmao....

Jeremy · June 2016

Drishtan wrote: »

Ur an ass hat.
Do you know how much a free to play game generates in revenue?
Do you know how much it cost to keep this game going?
Do you know how much it cost to actually still have a support team, how ever horrible they are, and how much it costs to employ them?
Do you know how much it costs to run and maintain a server?
How much it cost for internet?
I could go on and on...

If the game is to survive and thrive how can this happen without money?

Now ask yourself this question? How far is to far for this Concept Pay to Win?

Pay to Win in AN MMO has always been using cash to buy Weapons and Armor which are more powerful than typical items. You can't do either of this in ESO. You can buy style mats which make it look pretty but do nothing for gameplay.

I can go and on but already ive lost interest in explaining how the world works and how there is a fine line when it comes to balance and I have to say ZOS has done a pretty damn good job at that at least, cant say that much about other things they do lmao....

Is this rant aimed at me or someone else?

Mirelurk · June 2016

I married my crafting bag in a private ceremony at the weekend ... although it's not recognised in some jurisdictions.

kevlarto_ESO · June 2016

LOL I play to win because nothing in this game is p2w, want to see real pay to win in action look at an Asian game or an app game where you can buy the sword of a thousand truths and slash your way to victory. I have the crafting bag still waiting on my winnings lol

Lysette · June 2016

The whole thread is anyway pointless - it is just whining from someone who is unwilling to subscribe to get the perks. He has to learn, that if you want something real bad, you will have to do what is required to get it. Whining is none of these things. I am really tired of these kind of threads - childish whining when it is said that it is an ESO+ exclusive. I was for making this available on the crown store, but now I think, these kind of people need a lesson - that whining will not help them this time, otherwise they will never stop to behave like a child pestering their parents after those denied something - disgusting really.

Solid_Metal · June 2016

OP is troll...and already troll since yesterday about PvP (at least that iam aware of lol) , dont take the bait guys

Barbet · June 2016

Sub 4 convenience is more like it.

This game is not free to play. Its buy to play. There is nothing in the crown store that has to be purchased to make your toon better then others. There is nothing in the crown store that you can't get in game easily. ie I don't have to buy out of the crown store for the bestest gear or enchants or skills. Things that would actually give my toon an advantage in killing monsters or players. Being Sub does not give you an advantage ether.

The only thing I have ever bought though the crown store is the banker and that is for convenience. I might get the store someday for convenience as well. So if your claiming Pay for convenience, yes this game is pay for convenience not to win.

Lysette · June 2016

Barbet wrote: »

Sub 4 convenience is more like it.

This game is not free to play. Its buy to play. There is nothing in the crown store that has to be purchased to make your toon better then others. There is nothing in the crown store that you can't get in game easily. ie I don't have to buy out of the crown store for the bestest gear or enchants or skills. Things that would actually give my toon an advantage in killing monsters or players. Being Sub does not give you an advantage ether.

The only thing I have ever bought though the crown store is the banker and that is for convenience. I might get the store someday for convenience as well. So if your claiming Pay for convenience, yes this game is pay for convenience not to win.

Just a note - "best" is already a superlative, there is no "bestest".

Elsonso · June 2016

CokeVoAYCE wrote: »

exactly, that's my point. there's different degrees of pay to win, but it's still pay to win. most MMOs are pay to win, including ESO. the debate is on whether they're going or have gone too far pay to win. i'm just trying to point out that this game still is pay to win.

If you extend the definition of P2W enough, you can apply it to anything. The key is to keep the definition reasonable and realistic. When you do this, the "degrees" vanish because you realize that many of the definitions are simply made to prove that something is, or is not, P2W, or to be "inclusive" so as to allow more people to be "right" in what they think.

For a game to be pay to win, there has to be real world money spent on something that confers a competitive advantage in the game above what is available to players who do not pay such that it is a required expense for all players in order to play the game competitively.

It is that simple.

The competition needs to be a defined part of the game, not just any part of the game that people feel like competing in. The advantage needs to be tangible within that competition. These all need to be reasonable and objective, without inflating extreme and edge cases, or minimizing the more central cases, and without applying an agenda in order to prove a bias.

STEVIL · June 2016

CokeVoAYCE wrote: »

seems a lot of people don't understand this.

pay to win is simply: subbing makes the game easier
pay for extra perks is: subbing for extra dyes, costumes, and other cosmetics

pay to win includes: xp bonus, craft bags
pay for harmless perks include anything that doesn't affect gameplay
.

sorry but your definition is imo subjective and not correct.

I would say p2w is where paying money BY ANY MEANS not just subbing provides a competitive edge against content, a greater ability to WIN.

So, first, limiting it to subbing is not relevent. Money can flow any way.

Second, there is no WIN in how fast you level, its simply a time issue, so increaaed xp from bought scroll or subbing aren't p2w.

Third, craft bag makes inventory management easier but thats not anything again giving a competitive edge.

Basically, easier "to win" does not equal easier "to manage resources ooc."

Imo seems one person does not understand.

Emma_Overload · June 2016

Leandor wrote: »

I have been playing 2 years without crafting bags, in the process researching every single trait and stocking up materials for every level range, every motif, every trait, every craft, to the point where except from golden upgrade materials, I never had to buy a single craft material for over a year. And that is with now 6 chars at max level, 5 of which were V16 before the conversion to CP and all of them are fully equipped in V16 (or CP 160) items, mostly crafted.

How? It's called inventory management and two mules. I still have not maxed my bank space and none of my chars has more than 170 inventory spaces, since the last three upgrades are not worth it in my view.

Get a grip. The crafting bag is fantastic and it's a worthy perk for subscription. It has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with P2W. I shouldn't feel this way, but this constant bickering about the crafting bags has become my worst pet peeve on these forums.

Let. It. Rest.

I disagree. All that time you spent logging in and out, shuffling inventory between mules, is time you COULD have spent grinding CP or gold... stuff that helps you win. Players without the crafting bag are still forced to spend that time shuffling stuff around, while players with the bag aren't.

And that "bickering" on the forums that you don't like? You better get used it, because it's not going away any time soon. Just because YOU don't think it's a big deal, that doesn't mean everyone affected by it is going to forgive and forget. Until ZOS makes this right with a purchasable DLC crafting bag in the Crown Store, the grief is going to spill out in the forums forever.

Leandor · June 2016

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I have been playing 2 years without crafting bags, in the process researching every single trait and stocking up materials for every level range, every motif, every trait, every craft, to the point where except from golden upgrade materials, I never had to buy a single craft material for over a year. And that is with now 6 chars at max level, 5 of which were V16 before the conversion to CP and all of them are fully equipped in V16 (or CP 160) items, mostly crafted.

How? It's called inventory management and two mules. I still have not maxed my bank space and none of my chars has more than 170 inventory spaces, since the last three upgrades are not worth it in my view.

Get a grip. The crafting bag is fantastic and it's a worthy perk for subscription. It has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with P2W. I shouldn't feel this way, but this constant bickering about the crafting bags has become my worst pet peeve on these forums.

Let. It. Rest.

I disagree. All that time you spent logging in and out, shuffling inventory between mules, is time you COULD have spent grinding CP or gold... stuff that helps you win. Players without the crafting bag are still forced to spend that time shuffling stuff around, while players with the bag aren't.

And that "bickering" on the forums that you don't like? You better get used it, because it's not going away any time soon. Just because YOU don't think it's a big deal, that doesn't mean everyone affected by it is going to forgive and forget. Until ZOS makes this right with a purchasable DLC crafting bag in the Crown Store, the grief is going to spill out in the forums forever.

Well, I don't consider the inventory management so much of a chore, so yes, I am biased because of my own experience. The only time I had inventory issues and lots of relogging was while I had to collect research items. It went away after I wrote an excel sheet for that (now, it's pain free on PC with addons like craftstore).

As to the first part of your statement: I personally never had an issue with lost time (in a game, at that), but that of course may also be because I tend to be over-organized in games. A thing that I am sadly lacking IRL, much to my disadvantage.

EDIT to add: I am at 654 CP, all purple equip and gold weapons and 250+ skill points on all maxed chars, most colors unlocked (except for group/raid PvE content since I don't partake) and bit of gold on storage. I am where I could be, with or without crafting bag, while working a 50+ hours a week job. If I can do it, everyone can do it. I know I'm a special snowflake, but not that special.

mike_de · June 2016

CokeVoAYCE wrote: »

seems a lot of people don't understand this.

pay to win is simply: subbing makes the game easier
pay for extra perks is: subbing for extra dyes, costumes, and other cosmetics

pay to win includes: xp bonus, craft bags
pay for harmless perks include anything that doesn't affect gameplay

so yes, that 10% bonus to xp is paying to win. i don't have much of a problem with it because it's only paying to make the game 10% easier which isn't that much. but i did have a problem with craft bags and the direction it looks like ESO's going.

I agree with ths view. Let me add my own view to this: All things, that have influence to the core of the game, like additional skills or more skill points, necessary game play elements like missing UI interfaces or even crafting skills. (happened in SW:TOR) or advanced leveling system (happened in DDO) that were sold are Pay 2 win.

So this game is definitly pay 2 win, in more than one point of my definition.

Imagine two people , starting this game at the same time. One subscriber, and one, who is not. At level 9 or 10 the advancing drifts apart. The one with the subscription levels away. This kind of behavior is BS of the greatest category. Happened to me in SW:TOR, too.

Same with the crafting bag. The one with the bag can make more ingame money, than the one without. This is hindering the advancement of the non subscriber with no end. The crafting bag is a core element, not an inconvenience not to have. It alters the gameplay in an invasive way, because the one without it needs:

1. More bag space
2. More bank space
3. to go more often to the town.
4. Is not able tomake the same amount of money.
5. Has a bad experience because of this.
6. to stop more often, to trash some items.
7. Is not able to use autoloot as intended.
8. Is an unfair and unrealistc way, "teleporting" the mats into an additional bank account.

If they had solved this as simple bag, it would not have been the same as it is now. Now they are selling us an UI element and a core functionality, that is locked behind a paywall.

Pay 2 play and Pay 2 win in a very pure sense. If you do not pay us, you cannot use a essential core game play element!

You can sell us, pets, mounts, Fashion articles, styles and so on without end, but stop with this pay 2 win crap. I am even willing to pay for a black cat pet. So I can take my pet with me into imaginary worlds.

And another "little" thing: In not pay 2 win games, you are able to gain in game currency aka. crowns in this case, in small dosages. So that you are able to buy the DLC packages, if you are determined enough to do so. This is not the case in this game, so you are FORCED to pay them with your real money. The ultimate definition of Pay 2 play.... Maybe it would have been nice to get these for playing quests, number of PvP kills, achievements. I would take many things back, if you implement a system like that.

And, ah, yes. Achievements. You give us colors, that ONLY subscribers can use .... Are you dumb? Your brain cells eaten up by greed? Who is the one responsible for this? Find him, fire him, and get somebody with common sense on that position.

I know only one thing about myself. If I am fed up with this pay 2 win crap, because you add more and more to it, even as masked ESO+ advantage, I will quit sooner or later, never looking back once. The only MMO I would return is only FF XIV. All other game devs in all other MMO so far *** it up.

I would not even go back to Guild Wars 2 to, because they *** it up with their added security, and the lost quests with their "evolving" Game.

P.S. I write this from the viewpoint of an ESO+ member.

Delgent · June 2016

mike_de wrote: »

...

I know only one thing about myself. If I am fed up with this pay 2 win crap, because you add more and more to it, even as masked ESO+ advantage, I will quit sooner or later, never looking back once. The only MMO I would return is only FF XIV. All other game devs in all other MMO so far *** it up.

I would not even go back to Guild Wars 2 to, because they *** it up with their added security, and the lost quests with their "evolving" Game.

So you would go back to a game that REQUIRES a monthly sub (FF XIV), in order to not pay a sub for ESO...fascinating.

Xylphan · June 2016

Pay To Win

Pay to win is when you pay cash for an in-game advantage over the content and/or other players that you can not attain from within the game through other means in a reasonable fashion.

Exp boosts are not P2W. An exp booster does not give an in game advantage over content or other players. The content remains the same difficulty. Sure, you may end up over-leveling by them time you reach said content and thus make it easier, but a player can also grind a little more and achieve the same effect. They also don't give you an advantage over other players. Sure you can reach cap faster, but that doesn't give you any special advantage over anyone else that is also at cap. You're not going to lay waste in PvP because you have an exp boost.

Crafting bags are not P2W either. Crafting is an optional aspect of the game. You do not HAVE to craft. You do not HAVE to master all professions. You can buy crafted weapons from guild traders, or by asking a master crafter to make you what you want (for a price of course). Or you could focus on a single profession at a time. Or use mules. But you're not going to dominate end game content or PvP just because you have a crafting bag.

This game is not pay to win. At all. If people think that something like a crafting bag is pay to win, then they clearly have no experience with games that really are pay to win. Go play ArchAge or something to see what pay to win really is.

mike_de · June 2016

Delgent wrote: »

mike_de wrote: »

...

I know only one thing about myself. If I am fed up with this pay 2 win crap, because you add more and more to it, even as masked ESO+ advantage, I will quit sooner or later, never looking back once. The only MMO I would return is only FF XIV. All other game devs in all other MMO so far *** it up.

I would not even go back to Guild Wars 2 to, because they *** it up with their added security, and the lost quests with their "evolving" Game.

So you would go back to a game that REQUIRES a monthly sub (FF XIV), in order to not pay a sub for ESO...fascinating.

I pay for ESO+ now. Yes, of course I would.

If the game is fun the way it is. But If you have two models in one game, the core game elements have to be the same. So that you are no subscriber, you are able to buy ALL additional elements, that are important to you.

As a matter of fact, the reason I stopped playing FF XIV was the lag problem, because the European server was in Kanada. I have to try it again now, with their European server. In my eyes, the MMO FF XIV is worth a monthly description. As it is ESO. But I can only pay for one monthly description, so I have to decide which one to play as sub membership. Money does not grow on trees, you know?

Ravinsild · June 2016

LOL.

Pay to Win: The Crown Store sells you the best end-game gear that is unobtainable in game no matter how much you grind.
Pay to Win: Subscription gives you +10,000 to every stat in the game that you can't get without subscription no matter how much you min/max.

Learn your definitions buddy.

Pay to Win means you pay for more power than other players can get just by playing the game, therefore the more you pay the stronger you get. It then just becomes an Auction to the highest bidder rather than skill or ability. A no-skill deadbeat with more money than sense can just buy all the greatest stats to auto-win any encounter by sheer brute force, other more poor players cannot afford.

STEVIL · June 2016

mike_de wrote: »

.

Imagine two people , starting this game at the same time. One subscriber, and one, who is not. At level 9 or 10 the advancing drifts apart. The one with the subscription levels away. This kind of behavior is BS of the greatest category. Happened to me in SW:TOR, too.

Sorry but this is wrong.

The non-sub might just as well be thenone to out-level the subber by pkaying more frequently or playing more efficiently or jumping more difficult content thru superior skill.

Having 10% xp bonus does not mean i level faster than anyone but myself without the xp award.

There is no presumption in game that you are playing against equal playtime. If the game used playtime as a balancing benchmark, then 10% xp would be a p2w style competitive edge.

The game uses levels and cp for balancing and comparison, which are keyed to xp, regardless of how you get to that figure.

Delgent · June 2016

mike_de wrote: »

I pay for ESO+ now. Yes, of course I would.

If the game is fun the way it is. But If you have two models in one game, the core game elements have to be the same. So that you are no subscriber, you are able to buy ALL additional elements, that are important to you.

As a matter of fact, the reason I stopped playing FF XIV was the lag problem, because the European server was in Kanada. I have to try it again now, with their European server. In my eyes, the MMO FF XIV is worth a monthly description. As it is ESO. But I can only pay for one monthly description, so I have to decide which one to play as sub membership. Money does not grow on trees, you know?

It's not a core game element. It's a convenience feature.

I subscribe, and have since launch; however, prior to the craft bag announcement, we were starting to question why. We were already buying additional crowns, as well as a few lithos, glassware, and other merch from ESO. Out of all our expenditures, the sub gave us the least bang for our buck. Now I'm content with the value I'm getting for my sub fee. I didn't have a problem managing my inventory before craft bags, but the added convenience of them is appreciated.

I'm interested to see where this goes though. In my perfect world, they'd get tired of the whining and just put it back under a required sub. At the other end of that spectrum, if they drop the sub for a straight cash shop, we'll be at the head of the line headed out the door after our prior experience with GW2. I'll never go that route again.

EZgoin76 · June 2016

WTH!!! Did we bury this dead horse in the pet cemetery? It's back to life saying the same **** it did while we beat it the last several threads.

If you really think the 10% xp bonus is that big of a deal, I'd gladly give it up. I don't like over leveling content anyways.

Yinmaigao · June 2016

By OP's logic, EVERYONE in this thread is guilty of P2W.

You bought the game (aka pay) and now you can play.

Not fair to those who don't support/don't want to drop "fat wads of cash" on some entertainment. Total P2W.
/sarcasm.

Get real. Troll thread is bad.

idk · June 2016

OP is really grabbing at straws calling crafting bag for ESO+ a P2W. Having a little extra free space in my bank doesn't make my character an stronger.

While everyone is entitled to their oppinion it doesn't make their oppinion right. OP is wrong.

Zos made a business decision. A very sound a logical choice.

Tavore1138 · June 2016

CokeVoAYCE wrote: »

seems a lot of people don't understand this.

pay to win is simply: subbing makes the game easier
pay for extra perks is: subbing for extra dyes, costumes, and other cosmetics

pay to win includes: xp bonus, craft bags
pay for harmless perks include anything that doesn't affect gameplay

so yes, that 10% bonus to xp is paying to win. i don't have much of a problem with it because it's only paying to make the game 10% easier which isn't that much. but i did have a problem with craft bags and the direction it looks like ESO's going.

So how do I hit Mantikora with my crafting bag? Can I capture a keep faster with my 10% xp bonus? Goon.

Acrolas · June 2016

Silver_Strider wrote: »

crafting bags, while nice, don't give any real advantage in a competitive sense.

Story time, kids.

Once upon a time, there were two companies.

One company could only produce as many goods as a retailer ordered, and only with their limited resources.
The other company owned warehouses and could store as much inventory as it wanted to and could produce year-round.

In a few years, the company with warehouses bought out the other company and took its contracts. Retailers liked the convenience of ordering any time, and customers liked not having to wait a longer time for goods.

So anyone who says that crafting bags aren't a competitive advantage is either living in a bubble or doesn't want to emphasize an advantage they're already using in game.

WanderingJarlPuncher · June 2016

CokeVoAYCE wrote: »

seems a lot of people don't understand this.

pay to win is simply: subbing makes the game easier
pay for extra perks is: subbing for extra dyes, costumes, and other cosmetics

pay to win includes: xp bonus, craft bags
pay for harmless perks include anything that doesn't affect gameplay

so yes, that 10% bonus to xp is paying to win. i don't have much of a problem with it because it's only paying to make the game 10% easier which isn't that much. but i did have a problem with craft bags and the direction it looks like ESO's going.

subscription = ok as long as you get what you pay. wich is not the case in eso, bad service, bugs, broken game feature, endless spam per CP earned aka 37 mails per day to congrats me on a CP.

PAY TO WIN: buy your : ww vamp bag space increase, bank space increase, motifs, crafting material, mounts, mounts level ups, potions food buff via the cash shop because teso dropped the odds of finding rare motifs and legendary so badly that it becomes an obligation to buy from the cash shop. getting a WW vamp was so easy before they turned the odds of contracting the disease to the points where they "had to" implement it on the cash shop for 15$ a bite.

10% exp is a waste consdiering how easy the leveing in this game has become. 1-50 in 9 hours without the subscription exp.

crafting bag was implemented because they realised we had figured out a way to make good use of the 4 character slots that were left since theres only 4 classes in the game.

Lysette · June 2016

Emma_Overload wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

I have been playing 2 years without crafting bags, in the process researching every single trait and stocking up materials for every level range, every motif, every trait, every craft, to the point where except from golden upgrade materials, I never had to buy a single craft material for over a year. And that is with now 6 chars at max level, 5 of which were V16 before the conversion to CP and all of them are fully equipped in V16 (or CP 160) items, mostly crafted.

How? It's called inventory management and two mules. I still have not maxed my bank space and none of my chars has more than 170 inventory spaces, since the last three upgrades are not worth it in my view.

Get a grip. The crafting bag is fantastic and it's a worthy perk for subscription. It has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with P2W. I shouldn't feel this way, but this constant bickering about the crafting bags has become my worst pet peeve on these forums.

Let. It. Rest.

I disagree. All that time you spent logging in and out, shuffling inventory between mules, is time you COULD have spent grinding CP or gold... stuff that helps you win. Players without the crafting bag are still forced to spend that time shuffling stuff around, while players with the bag aren't.

And that "bickering" on the forums that you don't like? You better get used it, because it's not going away any time soon. Just because YOU don't think it's a big deal, that doesn't mean everyone affected by it is going to forgive and forget. Until ZOS makes this right with a purchasable DLC crafting bag in the Crown Store, the grief is going to spill out in the forums forever.

Hm, so you threaten basically to troll and pester the forum - I think that is against the TOS resp. code of conduct - rethink it please.

Xundiin · June 2016

This thread is a joke. Unless you played games like ArcheAge or Shaiya, you don't know what Pay to win is.... you just think you do. As the OP clearly is displaying a lack of knowledge on what it actually is.

Paneross · June 2016

When they let Subbers use the same horse training across all characters. OP will say thats P2W too.

FLuFFyxMuFFiN · June 2016

Some people need to L2Adult and stop crying over nothing. Crafting bags are pure convenience. Nothing more, nothing less. No advantage is gained over owning one.