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THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PAY TO WIN AND PAY FOR EXTRA HARMLESS PERKS
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Clerics1985 wrote: »ESO isn't pay to win, that would be like Selling vampire bites/wherewolf bites and Mount upgrades for real life cash just to make some rich kids life easier
There are varying degrees of pay to win.
Infinite storage space for your crafting materials certainly makes life easier for ESO players.Edited by Jeremy on June 27, 2016 12:10PM0 -
juhasman✭✭✭✭CokeVoAYCE wrote: »seems a lot of people don't understand this.
pay to win is simply: subbing makes the game easier
pay for extra perks is: subbing for extra dyes, costumes, and other cosmetics
pay to win includes: xp bonus, craft bags
pay for harmless perks include anything that doesn't affect gameplay
so yes, that 10% bonus to xp is paying to win. i don't have much of a problem with it because it's only paying to make the game 10% easier which isn't that much. but i did have a problem with craft bags and the direction it looks like ESO's going.
OK... so I just need to buy subscription and after I'll get craft bag I'll start to kill everyone who dont have it ? Who knows maybe I'll be emperor on pvp or in top 10 in each classs leaderboard in vMA? Because this is how p2w works.Edited by juhasman on June 27, 2016 12:12PM3 -
juhasman✭✭✭✭I assume costume dying for subscribers also will be P2W?
Edited by juhasman on June 27, 2016 12:13PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭CokeVoAYCE wrote: »seems a lot of people don't understand this.
pay to win is simply: subbing makes the game easier
pay for extra perks is: subbing for extra dyes, costumes, and other cosmetics
pay to win includes: xp bonus, craft bags
pay for harmless perks include anything that doesn't affect gameplay
so yes, that 10% bonus to xp is paying to win. i don't have much of a problem with it because it's only paying to make the game 10% easier which isn't that much. but i did have a problem with craft bags and the direction it looks like ESO's going.
OK... so I just need to buy subscription and after I'll get craft bag I'll start to kill everyone who dont have it ? Who knows maybe I'll be emperor on pvp or 1st in each classs leaderboard in vMA? Because this is how p2w works.
It's not about killing other players in PvP.
Anything that gives you an advantage in terms of game play is considered pay to win by many. Again: there are varying degrees. Some games are more pay to win than others.0 -
AmberLaTerra✭✭✭✭CokeVoAYCE wrote: »seems a lot of people don't understand this.
pay to win is simply: subbing makes the game easier
pay for extra perks is: subbing for extra dyes, costumes, and other cosmetics
pay to win includes: xp bonus, craft bags
pay for harmless perks include anything that doesn't affect gameplay
so yes, that 10% bonus to xp is paying to win. i don't have much of a problem with it because it's only paying to make the game 10% easier which isn't that much. but i did have a problem with craft bags and the direction it looks like ESO's going.
OK... so I just need to buy subscription and after I'll get craft bag I'll start to kill everyone who dont have it ? Who knows maybe I'll be emperor on pvp or 1st in each classs leaderboard in vMA? Because this is how p2w works.
It's not about killing other players in PvP.
Anything that gives you an advantage in terms of game play is considered pay to win by many. Again: there are varying degrees. Some games are more pay to win than others.
And how exactly does dye or a craft bag give me an advantage against a world boss or in a dungeon? Does the craft bag somehow magicly give me me 2k extra DPS, or make my tank have higher resistance? NO. The game can be played just fine without it, it is simple a convenience item that gives no advantage in any aspect of PVE or PVP other then bank management.
Last I checked you do not die in dungeons, or fighting world bosses, or fail trials, nor die in PVP because of bank management.PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
CP 365 Nord DK DPS EP
CP 365 Imperal DK Stam Tank EP
Level 9 Imperial Stam Templar EP
Cp 365 Khajiit Stam Blade EP
For the glory of the Pact0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Still not replying to the point of my post but to semantics. Have fun!
Buy ingame bag/bank space with gold. As said above, this allows you to have enough on store for every purpose. I know that since I did that before craft bag.
Semantics.Semantics.
According to most online definitions I have read, Pay to Win is when you are paying for an advantage normal players don't have access to unless they pay too.
Extra storage space for materials (such as the crafting bags) are undoubtedly an advantage. As the above poster points out, it's more of a convenience than a direct combat advantage. But storing materials for later use or selling them is a significant portion of ESO's game play. It's just not graphics/sound related.
So this game does have elements of Pay to Win. But it's to a small degree and shouldn't discourage non-subscribers.
You do not gain anything that you do not have without it.
Of course you do. You gain the advantage of more inventory space to compliment your crafting or trade.
That by the way includes several stacks of each alchemy ingredient and up to 2000 (or 10 stacks) of each V16 material.
The fact you can buy extra space with gold doesn't change the fact that subscribing gives you the advantage of having infinite storage space for your crafting materials.
That is a game play advantage non-subscribers don't have access to. It's not just graphics/sound related.
I'm not disputing your point.
Yes, there are ways to increase your inventory space on this game without subscribing. But subscribing will give you an undeniable advantage when it comes to inventory space.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AmberLaTerra wrote: »CokeVoAYCE wrote: »seems a lot of people don't understand this.
pay to win is simply: subbing makes the game easier
pay for extra perks is: subbing for extra dyes, costumes, and other cosmetics
pay to win includes: xp bonus, craft bags
pay for harmless perks include anything that doesn't affect gameplay
so yes, that 10% bonus to xp is paying to win. i don't have much of a problem with it because it's only paying to make the game 10% easier which isn't that much. but i did have a problem with craft bags and the direction it looks like ESO's going.
OK... so I just need to buy subscription and after I'll get craft bag I'll start to kill everyone who dont have it ? Who knows maybe I'll be emperor on pvp or 1st in each classs leaderboard in vMA? Because this is how p2w works.
It's not about killing other players in PvP.
Anything that gives you an advantage in terms of game play is considered pay to win by many. Again: there are varying degrees. Some games are more pay to win than others.
And how exactly does dye or a craft bag give me an advantage against a world boss or in a dungeon?
I never said crafting bags gives you an advantage against a world boss or in a dungeon.
What I said is crafting bags give you an advantage when it comes to storing materials for crafting or trading.
Pay to win is not limited to direct combat advantages. It encompasses any advantage to the game-play itself. Dyes are different because they are purely cosmetic and do not make any aspect of the game-play easier or more efficient for the paying player.Edited by Jeremy on June 27, 2016 12:28PM0 -
AmberLaTerra✭✭✭✭I repeat how does inventory space influence how you preform in any type of actual game content? Show me where the penalty to your abilities, DPS, Heals, Tanking, RP or any other aspect to the game are and how you are failing things like dungeons and trials due to a full inventory and you will show P2W.
Until you can show how it effects gameplay other then simple convenience of inventory it is not and never will be P2W, and you will just continue to be a free loader wanting to leech off subs who keep the server and dev bills paid.PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
CP 365 Nord DK DPS EP
CP 365 Imperal DK Stam Tank EP
Level 9 Imperial Stam Templar EP
Cp 365 Khajiit Stam Blade EP
For the glory of the Pact0 -
me_ming✭✭✭✭✭AmberLaTerra wrote: »CokeVoAYCE wrote: »seems a lot of people don't understand this.
pay to win is simply: subbing makes the game easier
pay for extra perks is: subbing for extra dyes, costumes, and other cosmetics
pay to win includes: xp bonus, craft bags
pay for harmless perks include anything that doesn't affect gameplay
so yes, that 10% bonus to xp is paying to win. i don't have much of a problem with it because it's only paying to make the game 10% easier which isn't that much. but i did have a problem with craft bags and the direction it looks like ESO's going.
OK... so I just need to buy subscription and after I'll get craft bag I'll start to kill everyone who dont have it ? Who knows maybe I'll be emperor on pvp or 1st in each classs leaderboard in vMA? Because this is how p2w works.
It's not about killing other players in PvP.
Anything that gives you an advantage in terms of game play is considered pay to win by many. Again: there are varying degrees. Some games are more pay to win than others.
And how exactly does dye or a craft bag give me an advantage against a world boss or in a dungeon? Does the craft bag somehow magicly give me me 2k extra DPS, or make my tank have higher resistance? NO. The game can be played just fine without it, it is simple a convenience item that gives no advantage in any aspect of PVE or PVP other then bank management.
Last I checked you do not die in dungeons, or fighting world bosses, or fail trials, nor die in PVP because of bank management.
Exactly. Unless having craft bags or being able to dye your custom locks a quest or gives you more stats, the game is not play to win. And please note that prior to the launch of DB, everyone had no craft bags and no one has had issues of completing any content in game then, unless of course if you really can't complete it because of well... you just can't. I have the craft bag, I still can't complete vMA."We're heroes, my boon companion, and heroes always win! Let that be a lesson to you."
-Caldwell, "The Final Assault"
"There is always a choice. But you don't get to choose what is true, you only get to choose what you will do about it..."
-Abnur Tharn, "God of Schemes"]0 -
Eliran✭✭✭✭✭If you like the game, then support it and subscribe, nothing is free in this world, sadly.
Maintenance and paychecks and so on aren't for free.
As an 11 years WoW player, I can tell you that I've never seen such good contact and updates in my life, period.
Each of those DLC's don't look like much to you, but they cost A LOT to make.
I do agree that those crafting bag, which save you GAZILLION of bag space and is pretty much life quality, specially for food mats and lower level mats, should be baseline.
However, people don't realize it, but those crafting bags, have their own server which is not related to the actual ESO inventory server, and require HUGE memory space, which mean more expenses.
Anyway as I said before, like the game, support it, end of the line, that old "I don't pay for games" saying is maybe relevant to your parents, grow up, this is a new era.
You most likely waste 4 times that amount in a restaurant or when you go out drinking in a matter of few hours, here you get a whole month of fun, not just few hours.0 -
Lumenn✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm just waiting on some ZOS developer to snap over these posts and REALLY put a P2W item in in the game Like "The Ultimate Elder Scroll" instantly converts your character to max level, 501 cp, all bank/horse upgrades, craft bag, assistants, PLUS 2000 extra bank slots and access to a room with 900 skyshards...available to ESO + only....then sit back and watch. I can just picture everyone thinking crafting bags as p2w frothing at the mouth in rage.
Sorry, coffee is still brewing so haven't had any yet and I have a twisted sense of humor. For the record this would be a HORRIBLE idea. Humorous in theory, but horrible as no one would learn the class....2 -
Clerics1985✭✭✭CokeVoAYCE wrote: »seems a lot of people don't understand this.
pay to win is simply: subbing makes the game easier
pay for extra perks is: subbing for extra dyes, costumes, and other cosmetics
pay to win includes: xp bonus, craft bags
pay for harmless perks include anything that doesn't affect gameplay
so yes, that 10% bonus to xp is paying to win. i don't have much of a problem with it because it's only paying to make the game 10% easier which isn't that much. but i did have a problem with craft bags and the direction it looks like ESO's going.
OK... so I just need to buy subscription and after I'll get craft bag I'll start to kill everyone who dont have it ? Who knows maybe I'll be emperor on pvp or in top 10 in each classs leaderboard in vMA? Because this is how p2w works.
sorry, you still have to be decent at the game as well, a Deep pockets isn't going to help you win if you don't know how to use it in that manner.AmberLaTerra wrote: »I repeat how does inventory space influence how you preform in any type of actual game content? Show me where the penalty to your abilities, DPS, Heals, Tanking, RP or any other aspect to the game are and how you are failing things like dungeons and trials due to a full inventory and you will show P2W.
Until you can show how it effects gameplay other then simple convenience of inventory it is not and never will be P2W, and you will just continue to be a free loader wanting to leech off subs who keep the server and dev bills paid.
vampire/wherewolf bites // Mount upgrades crafting assistants For right now, until we get the New, CP per lvl to match the mount upgrades ^.^0 -
leothedino✭✭✭✭You know guys, it's peoples 2016 'everything offends me' attitude that stops them from giving us anything short of dull passives in DLCs, these arguments make them afraid to progress. So you don't sub, you don't want to contribute back and aid the development of this game, is that it? Some people have this terrible 'they have had enough of my money' argument but you don't see what it's already been invested in, or what it's creating so that this game has a future.
Subbing, before the bag and the costume dying, was nothing short of a polite donation toward development, nothing more. Perks need to happen to make subbing continue, to feed our egos and distinguish those who are supporting continue development.
For those that return with the argument 'we did contribute, we bought the game', then please remember you did just that, bought the base game. Your terms of service, if you read them, clearly outline that your initial purchase (imperial edition or otherwise) was only the 1 to 50 experience, Champion Points and access to PVP... nothing about making sure your childish tempers and poor attitudes would be listened to when they decide to progress the game but you aren't willing to pay for it.1 -
AmberLaTerra✭✭✭✭Clerics1985 wrote: »CokeVoAYCE wrote: »seems a lot of people don't understand this.
pay to win is simply: subbing makes the game easier
pay for extra perks is: subbing for extra dyes, costumes, and other cosmetics
pay to win includes: xp bonus, craft bags
pay for harmless perks include anything that doesn't affect gameplay
so yes, that 10% bonus to xp is paying to win. i don't have much of a problem with it because it's only paying to make the game 10% easier which isn't that much. but i did have a problem with craft bags and the direction it looks like ESO's going.
OK... so I just need to buy subscription and after I'll get craft bag I'll start to kill everyone who dont have it ? Who knows maybe I'll be emperor on pvp or in top 10 in each classs leaderboard in vMA? Because this is how p2w works.
sorry, you still have to be decent at the game as well, a Deep pockets isn't going to help you win if you don't know how to use it in that manner.AmberLaTerra wrote: »I repeat how does inventory space influence how you preform in any type of actual game content? Show me where the penalty to your abilities, DPS, Heals, Tanking, RP or any other aspect to the game are and how you are failing things like dungeons and trials due to a full inventory and you will show P2W.
Until you can show how it effects gameplay other then simple convenience of inventory it is not and never will be P2W, and you will just continue to be a free loader wanting to leech off subs who keep the server and dev bills paid.
vampire/wherewolf bites // Mount upgrades crafting assistants For right now, until we get the New, CP per lvl to match the mount upgrades ^.^
Not one of those comes from sub, so the whole P2W sub argument is still holding less water then a bottomless bucketPAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
CP 365 Nord DK DPS EP
CP 365 Imperal DK Stam Tank EP
Level 9 Imperial Stam Templar EP
Cp 365 Khajiit Stam Blade EP
For the glory of the Pact0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AmberLaTerra wrote: »I repeat how does inventory space influence how you preform in any type of actual game content?.
I explained that earlier.
Collecting and storing materials for later use to either craft or trade is a significant part of ESO's game-play. Providing subscribers with infinite space to store crafting materials makes that aspect of the game a lot easier. So of course it has influence.Edited by Jeremy on June 27, 2016 12:36PM0 -
Drishtan✭✭✭AmberLaTerra wrote: »I repeat how does inventory space influence how you preform in any type of actual game content?.
I explained that earlier.
Collecting and storing materials for later use to either craft or trade is a significant part of ESO's game-play. Providing Subscribers with infinite space to store crafting materials makes that aspect of the game a lot easier. So of course it has an influence.
LMAO what about the Subbers who did this for 2 years before they had this perk? Its Possible to do it, it also possible to buy the sub to support the game to keep it runningEdited by ZOS_DaryaK on June 27, 2016 2:42PM0 -
Easily_Lost✭✭✭✭✭I thought P2W was Play2Win
PC - NA - AD
started April 2015
PVE & Solo only
Meet the LOST family: CP 1250+
Easily Lost Crafter - lvl 50 - Sorcerer Orc ( knows all traits and most styles )
Easily Lost-W - lvl 50 - Warden Imperial
Forever Lost - lvl 50 Sorcerer
CROWN CRATES: It doesn't affect gameplay, it's not mandatory, it's cosmetic only. If it helps to support the game and ZOS, I support it! Say YES to crown crates.0 -
juhasman✭✭✭✭Clerics1985 wrote: »...vampire/wherewolf bites // Mount upgrades crafting assistants For right now, until we get the New, CP per lvl to match the mount upgrades ^.^
Yyym yes of course vampire/werewolf bite which i can get for free or for 5k gold in game from other players. Mount upgrades? Yes of course if You spend 3/4 of Your playtime on horse and You play less then 3 months(this is time to max all horse stats). Assistants? Yes of course it takes limitless hours to teleport to the nearest town.
Edited by juhasman on June 27, 2016 12:41PM0 -
Ritzey01✭✭✭CokeVoAYCE wrote: »seems a lot of people don't understand this.
pay to win is simply: subbing makes the game easier
pay for extra perks is: subbing for extra dyes, costumes, and other cosmetics
pay to win includes: xp bonus, craft bags
pay for harmless perks include anything that doesn't affect gameplay
so yes, that 10% bonus to xp is paying to win. i don't have much of a problem with it because it's only paying to make the game 10% easier which isn't that much. but i did have a problem with craft bags and the direction it looks like ESO's going.
You couldnt be more wrong if you tried.
P.S. Try using one of the million other whining threads on this subject instead of creating yet another.0 -
AmberLaTerra✭✭✭✭Let's face it argueing with a freeloading leech will get us no where. We all know it is not P2W and so does he, he just wants everything free.
He is the type who probably expects everyone else to pay for everything he wants and never to have to work a day in his life but just be given everything.PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
CP 365 Nord DK DPS EP
CP 365 Imperal DK Stam Tank EP
Level 9 Imperial Stam Templar EP
Cp 365 Khajiit Stam Blade EP
For the glory of the Pact0 -
leothedino✭✭✭✭While not exactly game breaking with mules and mail bounce addons and whatnot... It does introduce something disturbing to me. They manufacture a defect, then SELL you the solution. And this ideology spilling over into other things... could be devastating to the game imo.
That's ugh, that's called running a business.
If you are hungry and you go to the store, is the store SELLING you the solution as an exploit? They gave you a service, they are selling another one.0 -
Clerics1985✭✭✭Clerics1985 wrote: »...vampire/wherewolf bites // Mount upgrades crafting assistants For right now, until we get the New, CP per lvl to match the mount upgrades ^.^
Yyym yes of course vampire/werewolf bite which i can get for free or for 5k gold in game from other players. Mount upgrades? Yes of course if You spend 3/4 of Your playtime on horse and You play less then 3 months(this is time to max all horse stats). Assistants? Yes of course it takes limitless hours to teleport to the nearest town.
obviously you haven't played much PvP0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭AmberLaTerra wrote: »I repeat how does inventory space influence how you preform in any type of actual game content?.
I explained that earlier.
Collecting and storing materials for later use to either craft or trade is a significant part of ESO's game-play. Providing Subscribers with infinite space to store crafting materials makes that aspect of the game a lot easier. So of course it has an influence.
LMAO what about the Subbers who did this for 2 years before they had this perk? Its Possible to do it, it also possible to buy the *** sub to support the game to keep it running U ***!
As one of those subbers who played this game starting in beta I can tell you that inventory issues were quite a hassle and required a lot of gold and selective gathering to manage. Had I just been gifted a bag that allowed me to store my crafting materials infinitely that would have certainly made things much easier for me - hence why it is a game-play advantage.
Pay to win does not mean it gives players exclusive ways to kill other players or bosses. It simply means players can opt to pay to make certain aspects of the game-play easier - of which these crafting bags certainly do.
Now what did you call me?Edited by Jeremy on June 27, 2016 12:47PM0
