You took our Bracing, let's take away Athletics!

mistermutiny89 · June 2016

So as we all know, "bracing" was removed for that poxy piece of trash "Wrath" passive ability to further nerf tanks... But we were given the option to get that back from the "Sturdy" armour trait.

That's all well and good, but ONLY if "Athletics" gets the same nerf. Remember... BALANCE... Yeah that thing. Well... Dodge roll reduction comes from armour traits as well!

The only valid retort is there being no dodge reduction jewelry glyphs... Make them happen! Simple.

Whilst we're on the topic of medium armour.... Why does light armour have cost reduction and recovery broken into two different passives whilst medium armour has both passives in one?? Hmmm.

I never like wielding the nerf hammer but I'm still just really grumpy about the Bracing debacle, and I think we need to continue fighting for its return but if not then the imbalances caused by this change need to be considered for the next game breaking patch.

Strider_Roshin · June 2016

So they triple your resources received via constitution, give you more mitigation with the defending change, move the shield expert to the same tree as your damage mitigation CP passives, moved block cost reduction to the thief constellation, provided you with a new trait that reduces block cost, and increased the cost reduction passive that comes with defensive stance... and you're whining about the removal of bracing for something that increases your damage output? Do you even recognize a buff when you see it or do you just like complaining?

mistermutiny89 · June 2016

@Strider_Roshin

1800 resources every 4 seconds with black rose and 7 pieces of heavy armour?? That's a lot? Nope.

Giving up our traits? That go towards infused and reinforced on many top tank builds.

Our block cost reduction being moved from the red tree to the green tree where all our points go into recovery and cost reduction of other abilities?!

Wrath giving us a poxy 200 extra speed/weapon damage after getting hit 10 times?!!! We could get 174 from one spell damage glyph that'd be on us the whole time.

You've lost the plot if you think we've been buffed. You've been tricked. Medium armour, you're next.

Personofsecrets · June 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

So they triple your resources received via constitution, give you more mitigation with the defending change, move the shield expert to the same tree as your damage mitigation CP passives, moved block cost reduction to the thief constellation, provided you with a new trait that reduces block cost, and increased the cost reduction passive that comes with defensive stance... and you're whining about the removal of bracing for something that increases your damage output? Do you even recognize a buff when you see it or do you just like complaining?

All of the changes to HA where contrived to the point that we ended up in close to the same spot resource wise, but now gearing up and CP specification is much worse.

For that reason the changes were garbo.

Personofsecrets · June 2016

@Strider_Roshin , sturdies introduction at the loss of bracing undid months and hundreds of thousands of gold of gearing. Considering that we aren't more powerful now that is a pretty silly move.

mistermutiny89 · June 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

So they triple your resources received via constitution, give you more mitigation with the defending change, move the shield expert to the same tree as your damage mitigation CP passives, moved block cost reduction to the thief constellation, provided you with a new trait that reduces block cost, and increased the cost reduction passive that comes with defensive stance... and you're whining about the removal of bracing for something that increases your damage output? Do you even recognize a buff when you see it or do you just like complaining?

All of the changes to HA where contrived to the point that we ended up in close to the same spot resource wise, but now gearing up and CP specification is much worse.

For that reason the changes were garbo.

Don't get me wrong, I'm pulling it off. (thank you engine guardian and potions). But man... I lost a lot in the process. It was really uncalled for.

Armitas · June 2016

Let me try to explain to you why it's balanced and how it all makes perfect sense.

ZOS hates tanking, ZOS loves dodging and rolling.

Strider_Roshin · June 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@Strider_Roshin , sturdies introduction at the loss of bracing undid months and hundreds of thousands of gold of gearing. Considering that we aren't more powerful now that is a pretty silly move.

So you're upset with the fact that you have to craft your gear again? You know this happens pretty much every update right?

Shadesofkin · June 2016

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

So as we all know, "bracing" was removed for that poxy piece of trash "Wrath" passive ability to further nerf tanks... But we were given the option to get that back from the "Sturdy" armour trait.

That's all well and good, but ONLY if "Athletics" gets the same nerf. Remember... BALANCE... Yeah that thing. Well... Dodge roll reduction comes from armour traits as well!

The only valid retort is there being no dodge reduction jewelry glyphs... Make them happen! Simple.

Whilst we're on the topic of medium armour.... Why does light armour have cost reduction and recovery broken into two different passives whilst medium armour has both passives in one?? Hmmm.

I never like wielding the nerf hammer but I'm still just really grumpy about the Bracing debacle, and I think we need to continue fighting for its return but if not then the imbalances caused by this change need to be considered for the next game breaking patch.

I agree with you, but I wanted to point out that thus far I haven't felt much impact from losing it. I've tanked normal Maw, normal Sanctum, HM Hel Ra, and Vet ICP and Vet WGT (yeah I know they're not as hard) and I've yet to really feel like I'm missing too much. Granted, I run Black Rose because I knew months in advance to farm divines pieces of it.

That all being said, I do agree with you, it's weird that medium gains so much in comparison.

Strider_Roshin · June 2016

Armitas wrote: »

Let me try to explain to you why it's balanced and how it all makes perfect sense.

ZOS hates tanking, ZOS loves dodging and rolling.

Tanking is actually easier now. However the need for tanks is limited to trials. If you want tanks to feel some love then request for more challenging content because with the nerf to WGT and IP my tank has been collecting dust. It's a shame, I used to enjoy tanking those dungeons.

sirrmattus · June 2016

My tank us stronger now than ever before

Strider_Roshin · June 2016

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

@Strider_Roshin

1800 resources every 4 seconds with black rose and 7 pieces of heavy armour?? That's a lot? Nope.

Giving up our traits? That go towards infused and reinforced on many top tank builds.

Our block cost reduction being moved from the red tree to the green tree where all our points go into recovery and cost reduction of other abilities?!

Wrath giving us a poxy 200 extra speed/weapon damage after getting hit 10 times?!!! We could get 174 from one spell damage glyph that'd be on us the whole time.

You've lost the plot if you think we've been buffed. You've been tricked. Medium armour, you're next.

You do realize that you have 0 stamina regen while blocking right? So yes it is a lot, and if you're tanking those points into Mooncalf is a waste, this change actually allowed us to put those points to good use.

mistermutiny89 · June 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

@Strider_Roshin

1800 resources every 4 seconds with black rose and 7 pieces of heavy armour?? That's a lot? Nope.

Giving up our traits? That go towards infused and reinforced on many top tank builds.

Our block cost reduction being moved from the red tree to the green tree where all our points go into recovery and cost reduction of other abilities?!

Wrath giving us a poxy 200 extra speed/weapon damage after getting hit 10 times?!!! We could get 174 from one spell damage glyph that'd be on us the whole time.

You've lost the plot if you think we've been buffed. You've been tricked. Medium armour, you're next.

You do realize that you have 0 stamina regen while blocking right? So yes it is a lot, and if you're tanking those points into Mooncalf is a waste, this change actually allowed us to put those points to good use.

Stamina ability cost reduction
Magicka Ability cost reduction
Magicka recovery
Break free cost reduction

That's where your green points used to go.

I'm not complaining for the sake of complaining, I actually waited a couple of weeks before even posting to fully test: cp allocation, jewelry enchants, how much I have to drop block...

I have 9 fully levelled characters and 5 have been tank tested. To get my tanks running as well as before many things had to be let go of and the ability to use a larger variety of armour sets was disbanded. We'll survive this change if it sticks but medium armour is now the most op. That needs to change.

Hope you can see that mate.

Personofsecrets · June 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Personofsecrets wrote: »

@Strider_Roshin , sturdies introduction at the loss of bracing undid months and hundreds of thousands of gold of gearing. Considering that we aren't more powerful now that is a pretty silly move.

So you're upset with the fact that you have to craft your gear again? You know this happens pretty much every update right?

@Strider_Roshin

A. Recrafting gear doesn't happen pretty much happen every update. Even if it does happen every patch, the purpose of recrafting should be to become more powerful and not just to stay the same.

B. Now with the introduction of the Sturdy trait not only will tanking gear be harder to get in the future, but all other non-tank players will suffer getting this trait despite having no use for it. This will cost players time and energy forever.

C. Champion points must now be changed more often than before and that is an increased cost for as long as the game lasts.

D. Wrobel presented extremely regrettable logic in their comparison of the previous tanking to the future tanking. This was a big disconnect for many players and widened the gap between the players and development.

Your rhetorical questions massively fail.

STEVIL · June 2016

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

That's all well and good, but ONLY if "Athletics" gets the same nerf. Remember... BALANCE... Yeah that thing. Well... Dodge roll reduction comes from armour traits as well!

Absolutely... good point @mistermutiny89. Good comparison.

I mean since BOTH blocking and dodge have cost increases for repeated use in quick succession and both gain cost red from armor trait then like bracing the med skill line should replac...

Wait... what... block doesnt get cost penalties for repeated use?

UltimaJoe777 · June 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

That's all well and good, but ONLY if "Athletics" gets the same nerf. Remember... BALANCE... Yeah that thing. Well... Dodge roll reduction comes from armour traits as well!

Absolutely... good point @mistermutiny89. Good comparison.

I mean since BOTH blocking and dodge have cost increases for repeated use in quick succession and both gain cost red from armor trait then like bracing the med skill line should replac...

Wait... what... block doesnt get cost penalties for repeated use?

It also doesn't go as high as Well-Fitted does at gold quality.

Sturdy: +0.5% per upgrade
Well-Fitted: +1% per upgrade

As you said though blocking doesn't get cost reduction, but it does drain stamina rapidly depending on how many hits you're taking.

Armitas · June 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Let me try to explain to you why it's balanced and how it all makes perfect sense.

ZOS hates tanking, ZOS loves dodging and rolling.

Tanking is actually easier now.

Just curious. Are you using blackrose?

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

However the need for tanks is limited to trials. If you want tanks to feel some love then request for more challenging content because with the nerf to WGT and IP my tank has been collecting dust. It's a shame, I used to enjoy tanking those dungeons.

Yeah, they really have. Lately I have found myself being the tank and the healer for these pledges (not wgt/icp).

It's crazy though, they nerf these things and they are just ridiculously easy that you can be the healer, and the tank while pulling off decent dps. But people still can't do them. I kid you not, with me as the tank pulling 10k dps myself the random finder I was in nearly wipped to bloodspawn for lack of dps. It's bizarro world in that dungeon finder.

mistermutiny89 · June 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

That's all well and good, but ONLY if "Athletics" gets the same nerf. Remember... BALANCE... Yeah that thing. Well... Dodge roll reduction comes from armour traits as well!

Absolutely... good point @mistermutiny89. Good comparison.

I mean since BOTH blocking and dodge have cost increases for repeated use in quick succession and both gain cost red from armor trait then like bracing the med skill line should replac...

Wait... what... block doesnt get cost penalties for repeated use?

Blocking has penalties of its own. Like no Stam regen and the fact it procs twice per second. You can dodge roll once per second and mitigate all damage in that second.

susmitds · June 2016

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

That's all well and good, but ONLY if "Athletics" gets the same nerf. Remember... BALANCE... Yeah that thing. Well... Dodge roll reduction comes from armour traits as well!

Absolutely... good point @mistermutiny89. Good comparison.

I mean since BOTH blocking and dodge have cost increases for repeated use in quick succession and both gain cost red from armor trait then like bracing the med skill line should replac...

Wait... what... block doesnt get cost penalties for repeated use?

It also doesn't go as high as Well-Fitted does at gold quality.

Sturdy: +0.5% per upgrade
Well-Fitted: +1% per upgrade

As you said though blocking doesn't get cost reduction, but it does drain stamina rapidly depending on how many hits you're taking.

Block cost can only occur two times a second at max case scenario. Which is not much.

Strider_Roshin · June 2016

Armitas wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Let me try to explain to you why it's balanced and how it all makes perfect sense.

ZOS hates tanking, ZOS loves dodging and rolling.

Tanking is actually easier now.

Just curious. Are you using blackrose?
.

Nope, here's my old tank build. The only difference is that I changed my CP allocation, and a couple of pieces of armor (from reinforced to sturdy). I also changed up the trait and enchantment on my axe on the back bar. I really need to upload an up to date tank build lol

https://youtu.be/4lev-qR02_c

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · June 2016

Medium armor has cost reductions and recovery in one tree because of the stealth bonus. The only difference between Medium and Light Armor is the armor rating and a 3% speed buff.

Medium Armor has a raw damage buff where as Light Armor has Spell Pen both increase damage just in different ways. Both Grant crit bonuses both reduce pool cost unlike magic stamina is used for actions outside of powers. If you don't have magic power on your bar you can't use magic, however with a bar of pure magic you still will sprint, block, CC break and roll dodge. You simply use your stamina for more their needs to be a cost reductions their.

1800 is huge that's basically an bonus 900 to your recovery added to your normal recovery. With 2k recovery on your main pool that's 2.9k every two seconds with the best damage mitigation.

Why does your tank have recovery buffs? Unless it's magic recovery that makes no sense Heavy has no cost reductions true but a 10% cost cut to a 4K (400 points off) power does more then a 10% recovery buff to 2k recovery (adding 200 points). Cost reductions is the goal for a tank not recovery you simply get more out of cost reductions.

Tanking is much easier now. In regards to CC break heavy armor has a power that passively reduces the cost of CC break per piece of Heavy Armor.

Of course Well Fitted does more then Study, you can use jewelry to help drop the cost more.

mistermutiny89 · June 2016

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Medium armor has cost reductions and recovery in one tree because of the stealth bonus. The only difference between Medium and Light Armor is the armor rating and a 3% speed buff.

Medium Armor has a raw damage buff where as Light Armor has Spell Pen both increase damage just in different ways. Both Grant crit bonuses both reduce pool cost unlike magic stamina is used for actions outside of powers. If you don't have magic power on your bar you can't use magic, however with a bar of pure magic you still will sprint, block, CC break and roll dodge. You simply use your stamina for more their needs to be a cost reductions their.

1800 is huge that's basically an bonus 900 to your recovery added to your normal recovery. With 2k recovery on your main pool that's 2.9k every two seconds with the best damage mitigation.

Why does your tank have recovery buffs? Unless it's magic recovery that makes no sense Heavy has no cost reductions true but a 10% cost cut to a 4K (400 points off) power does more then a 10% recovery buff to 2k recovery (adding 200 points). Cost reductions is the goal for a tank not recovery you simply get more out of cost reductions.

Tanking is much easier now. In regards to CC break heavy armor has a power that passively reduces the cost of CC break per piece of Heavy Armor.

Of course Well Fitted does more then Study, you can use jewelry to help drop the cost more.

You've asked why I have recovery buffs but then you're saying to have lots of magicka recovery?? I'm not sure where this belief I have heaps of Stam recovery is coming from either?? This isn't a build questionaire, this is about the fact that the changes to HA weren't actually buffs.

Also 1800 may be huge to you but to maximize constitution you have to use black rose which has Stam recovery which is useless and you have to wear 7 pieces of HA meaning: 6% less of all resources due to not using the undaunted passives then 3% cost reduction of Stam and magicka abilities.. That's an uneven trade off. But we are forced into it now if we want 1,800 constitution. No thanks.

Then to add insult to injury the green tree was already full of great and well needed buffs for cost reduction across the board. Block cost in the red tree was FINE where it was. Putting shadow Ward where it is takes away from cp being placed to reduce other abilities that generate more resources was a nerf.

Easier tanking may come from the better enchants but it doesn't come from the heavy armour changes or the cp changes... They were nerfs.

You're right with most of the medium armour passives except you didn't fight for dodge roll cost reduction... Because it's the one thing that needs to go. It can have the run speed, extra crit, extra raw damage, stealth... But dodge roll reduction it's Too much now that armour traits are available.. They need to learn to sacrifice things like we do in heavy armour.

It's bitter sweet having people prefer the changes because at least there's some people that get enjoyment out of it. But coming from someone that used to run three spell damage glyphs on my jewelry for my sap tank and never have to drop block to having to drop block often is proof to me the new system is shite and the addition of well fitted without the removal of the medium armour passive will always be an oversight in my opinion.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · June 2016

Y

mistermutiny89 wrote: »

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO wrote: »

Medium armor has cost reductions and recovery in one tree because of the stealth bonus. The only difference between Medium and Light Armor is the armor rating and a 3% speed buff.

Medium Armor has a raw damage buff where as Light Armor has Spell Pen both increase damage just in different ways. Both Grant crit bonuses both reduce pool cost unlike magic stamina is used for actions outside of powers. If you don't have magic power on your bar you can't use magic, however with a bar of pure magic you still will sprint, block, CC break and roll dodge. You simply use your stamina for more their needs to be a cost reductions their.

1800 is huge that's basically an bonus 900 to your recovery added to your normal recovery. With 2k recovery on your main pool that's 2.9k every two seconds with the best damage mitigation.

Why does your tank have recovery buffs? Unless it's magic recovery that makes no sense Heavy has no cost reductions true but a 10% cost cut to a 4K (400 points off) power does more then a 10% recovery buff to 2k recovery (adding 200 points). Cost reductions is the goal for a tank not recovery you simply get more out of cost reductions.

Tanking is much easier now. In regards to CC break heavy armor has a power that passively reduces the cost of CC break per piece of Heavy Armor.

Of course Well Fitted does more then Study, you can use jewelry to help drop the cost more.

You've asked why I have recovery buffs but then you're saying to have lots of magicka recovery?? I'm not sure where this belief I have heaps of Stam recovery is coming from either?? This isn't a build questionaire, this is about the fact that the changes to HA weren't actually buffs.

Also 1800 may be huge to you but to maximize constitution you have to use black rose which has Stam recovery which is useless and you have to wear 7 pieces of HA meaning: 6% less of all resources due to not using the undaunted passives. That's an uneven trade off. But we are forced into it now if we want 1,800 constitution. No thanks.

Then to add insult to injury the green tree was already full of great and well needed buffs for cost reduction across the board. Block cost in the red tree was FINE where it was. Putting shadow Ward where it is takes away from cp being placed to reduce other abilities that generate more resources was a nerf.

Easier tanking may come from the better enchants but it doesn't come from the heavy armour changes or the cp changes... They were nerfs.

You're right with most of the medium armour passives except you didn't fight for dodge roll cost reduction... Because it's the one thing that needs to go. It can have the run speed, extra crit, extra raw damage, stealth... But dodge roll reduction it's Too much now that armour traits are available.. They need to learn to sacrifice things like we do in heavy armour.

It's bitter sweet having people prefer the changes because at least there's some people that get enjoyment out of it. But coming from someone that used to run three spell damage glyphs on my jewelry for my sap tank and never have to drop block to having to drop block often is proof to me the new system is shite and the addition of well fitted without the removal of the medium armour passive will always be an oversight in my opinion.

you lose 4% you get 2% from undaunted regardless with two type of armor that's 4% max resources but what's 4% to small pools doing for you Templars and Dragon Knight Tank use a lot of magic plus it's not cut to nothing when you block.

Heavy armor has zero sacrifices you don't have time to full heavy attack heavy armor lets you do a full HA and grants 50% more resources. You have the only max resource with shields and healthy that as health based.

You can't just hold block and spam powers but you can TANK a lot easier. I Tank all four classes and I have all Argonians so if you min/max and can't Tank that's on you. My Tanks are doing way better across the board. 4-6% more magic when I have 9k or better passives like more armor, cheaper CC break, higher more mitigation.

Stamina recovery is a waste of you block 24/7 I don't so I got my regen to 2k that plus Black Rose I'm in a great place. The problem is your way of Tanking. When everyone and their momma started running crit resistant builds I don't cry I focused on raw damage and armor pen. Change your tank to make the most of the powers at hands.