ESO Plus Subscribers - yes everyone we do pay for things

stevepdodson_ESO888 · June 2016

I just wanted to try to explain to those players that do not have ESO Plus Subscription that we actually are paying for things like Craft Bags and Costume Dyes by giving ZOS our money through the subscription fees.

Should ZOS decide to add any other features that are tied to being an ESO Plus Subscriber we will be paying for that too.

If you choose not to have ESO Plus then don't complain and expect to get something for free.

It must make your head spin being so high up on your horse...I am just getting a slight feeling of that standing here on my soap box.

Please send all your abusive comments regarding this to Fengrush as he deserves it

Transairion · June 2016

Funny line of thinking, when it was the whole concept of a Subscriber-only ESO that had to be scrapped for ESO to survive at all and the introduction of the Crown Store.

Don't kid yourself, subscriber payment probably makes up only 25% of ESO's revenue if even that. Crown Store is where almost all the money comes from since it's introduction.

ADarklore · June 2016

I have to agree... I've seen so many (the same players though) repeating the same exact thing over and over... how "crafting bags" or "costume dying" is P2W or that they cannot play the 'entire content' without these items. I just don't understand this logic... it's akin to a child throwing a temper tantrum because something they want isn't freely given to them. I stress the word WANT because neither of these two things are a NEED. Players got through two+ years without crafting bags or costume dying... but the moment they're added to ESO+... "OMG, I cannot play this game without these... ZOS why are you so cruel, I can no longer play this game because you won't give me access to craft bags or allow free costume dying without ESO+." *sigh* Subscribe and reap the 'loyalty rewards' or don't... and continue playing the game as you did before they were added to ESO+.

clayandaudrey_ESO · June 2016

These threads are amusing to me because both sides throw childish temper tantrums.

DannyLV702 · June 2016

Transairion wrote: »

Funny line of thinking, when it was the whole concept of a Subscriber-only ESO that had to be scrapped for ESO to survive at all and the introduction of the Crown Store.

Don't kid yourself, subscriber payment probably makes up only 25% of ESO's revenue if even that. Crown Store is where almost all the money comes from since it's introduction.

If your boss told you he was cutting your pay by 25% starting tomorrow, how would you react?

smokey13a · June 2016

I thought people subscribed for the free access to dlc the free crowns and the xp boost and that the bag and dyes were new features that had nothing to do with subs until zos chose to make them sub only which just seems like an attempt to get more subscribers then anything else(like giving more stuff to current subscribers).

personally I don't subscribe but also have no interest in the craft bag or costume dyes(because to me the costumes look terrible anyway) so I don't care and am not biased either way but your post seems fairly condescending to non-subscribers so it sounds like your on a "high horse"(as you put it) as well, no offence or anything intended

OGLezard · June 2016

DannyLV702 wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

Funny line of thinking, when it was the whole concept of a Subscriber-only ESO that had to be scrapped for ESO to survive at all and the introduction of the Crown Store.

Don't kid yourself, subscriber payment probably makes up only 25% of ESO's revenue if even that. Crown Store is where almost all the money comes from since it's introduction.

If your boss told you he was cutting your pay by 25% starting tomorrow, how would you react?

how, exactly, does that apply here?

Transairion · June 2016

DannyLV702 wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

Funny line of thinking, when it was the whole concept of a Subscriber-only ESO that had to be scrapped for ESO to survive at all and the introduction of the Crown Store.

Don't kid yourself, subscriber payment probably makes up only 25% of ESO's revenue if even that. Crown Store is where almost all the money comes from since it's introduction.

If your boss told you he was cutting your pay by 25% starting tomorrow, how would you react?

You're going to have to break it down for me, since I can't find the leap of logic you took to link entitled payment for services rendered to "I am a sub and I therefore pay for everything, whorship me!".

Better analogy is if the boss fires 25% of workers, the company probably won't collapse. That's called a minority.

Subscribers aren't the majority by leaps and bounds.

CherryCake · June 2016

Hey ESO plus subscribers, the rest of us pays for things too .......

maybe even more than you do, yet in your eyes we are still everything that is wrong with the game and dont deserve ***

ADarklore · June 2016

Transairion wrote: »

DannyLV702 wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

Funny line of thinking, when it was the whole concept of a Subscriber-only ESO that had to be scrapped for ESO to survive at all and the introduction of the Crown Store.

Don't kid yourself, subscriber payment probably makes up only 25% of ESO's revenue if even that. Crown Store is where almost all the money comes from since it's introduction.

If your boss told you he was cutting your pay by 25% starting tomorrow, how would you react?

You're going to have to break it down for me, since I can't find the leap of logic you took to link entitled payment for services rendered to "I am a sub and I therefore pay for everything, whorship me!".

Better analogy is if the boss fires 25% of workers, the company probably won't collapse. That's called a minority.

Subscribers aren't the majority by leaps and bounds.

And therein lies the dilemma for ZOS... they WANT more subscribers... so to get more, they are increasing the incentives for subscribing. When a company does a budget every year, they have to estimate what their future revenue is... and with subscribers, they have a more solid foundation to plan for the future... and yes, the bean counters take into consideration the ebb and flow of subscriptions. However, they cannot do a very good job of creating a budget based upon complete speculation, which is what they have to do with non-subscribers. Thus, it is a better for ZOS to have more subscribers, not less... and if people want to leave the game because they don't get these incentives, then so be it; however, I, and I'm sure ZOS as well, expect a lot more people will subscribe then leave.

Tyrion87 · June 2016

So I would like to explain you that many of us, non ESO subscribers, give ZOS much more money than only your subscribtion fees by purchasing a lot of crown packs. There are two models of providing financial support for the game: the subscription and the purchase of crown packs. People who spend their money on crown packs (usually much more money than ESO Plus members) also deserve some benefits cause they contribute to the development of the game even more.

Haquor · June 2016

Transairion wrote: »

Funny line of thinking, when it was the whole concept of a Subscriber-only ESO that had to be scrapped for ESO to survive at all and the introduction of the Crown Store.

Don't kid yourself, subscriber payment probably makes up only 25% of ESO's revenue if even that. Crown Store is where almost all the money comes from since it's introduction.

A subscriber is garunteed money to zos. For a set period of time they are garunteed a fee. A non subscriber is under no obligation to buy anything.

So... providing things that people want that can only be had while a subscription is active is a decent way to make people subscribe. If it was just thrown on the store for people to one off purchase then there is no incentive to keep paying.

Sure they get a small payment. But not say 6 times that they get from someone with a 6 month subscription who is probably buying the same amount of *** from the store over the term of thier subscription aswel as any non subscriber in the same period.

I would like there to be more incentives like the bag for subscribers. But imagine the rage born out of this sense of entitlement that is so common at the moment.

Lightninvash · June 2016

This thread doesn't apply to me since I subscribe and buy crowns.

Just wanted to say the sub model was working they had to scrap it when they released the game for console because ESO wanted the game to stay subscription based and was trying to work a deal with psn and Microsoft that if we paid the ESO sub we could play the game online without a gold membership/ ps+ membership. That way we wouldn't have to pay for 2 subscriptions just to play ESO(I get it because that would be a rather unpleasant idea.)

Microsoft refused to budge on allowing even 1 game to have free online play with a sub that wasn't xbox live gold. So they scrapped the sub base made it buy to play with a crown store for dlc sales since you no longer had to sub, and kept a subscription that would give added benefits if you chose to do so. It wasn't because sub based games doesn't make more or anything like that so you can blame that on Microsoft (unfortunately.) At least this is what I have heard when the game was coming out for console.

So yes the eso+ definitely helps but I believe it is more of a "loyalty program" than a money maker. Since they sell more things through the crown store the added eso+ memberships help earn more revenue to make improvements on the game. The lion share of the revenue is from the crown store so it can be looked at in both aspects because while the crown store makes more revenue it also required more work to maintain and keep coming out with new things. Where as they add minor changes to eso+ over a longer period of time while still racking up the money earned for that to use for other areas of the game.

just my 2 septims

Alurria · June 2016

Tyrion87 wrote: »

So I would like to explain you that many of us, non ESO subscribers, give ZOS much more money than only your subscribtion fees by purchasing a lot of crown packs. There are two models of providing financial support for the game: the subscription and the purchase of crown packs. People who spend their money on crown packs (usually much more money than ESO Plus members) also deserve some benefits cause they contribute to the development of the game even more.

This is simply not true, see the prior threads on craft bags, use the search feature. One poster broke it down. I can tell you as a subscriber I have spent over 15 a month on crowns

WanderingJarlPuncher · June 2016

pay to win brudda its all about the pay to win. the game is slowly drowning back to what i was when they banned all the gold sellers.

Tyrion87 · June 2016

pieceofyarnb14_ESO wrote: »

Tyrion87 wrote: »

So I would like to explain you that many of us, non ESO subscribers, give ZOS much more money than only your subscribtion fees by purchasing a lot of crown packs. There are two models of providing financial support for the game: the subscription and the purchase of crown packs. People who spend their money on crown packs (usually much more money than ESO Plus members) also deserve some benefits cause they contribute to the development of the game even more.

This is simply not true, see the prior threads on craft bags, use the search feature. One poster broke it down. I can tell you as a subscriber I have spent over 15 a month on crowns

Lol I know that there are ESO Plus members who also buy the crown packs separately, but there are a lot of subscribers who spend their money only on the fee, but they get much more benefits than people (non subscribers) who spend more money on crowns.

Xylphan · June 2016

Tyrion87 wrote: »

So I would like to explain you that many of us, non ESO subscribers, give ZOS much more money than only your subscribtion fees by purchasing a lot of crown packs. There are two models of providing financial support for the game: the subscription and the purchase of crown packs. People who spend their money on crown packs (usually much more money than ESO Plus members) also deserve some benefits cause they contribute to the development of the game even more.

Unless you're paying at least $180 per year in crown packs, then no, you are not paying more than a minimum subscriber.

In addition, a subscription represent s guaranteed income stream, which the crown store is not. Subscriptions allow for long term planning, paying the bills, keeping the lights on, etc. Intermittent purchases do not, and only allow planning AFTER the fact.

Subscribers are basically paying for what has to be and what will be done. Crown store purchasers are paying for what might get done if there are enough funds.

C0wrex · June 2016

Why can't we all just drop our arms and hug?

Personofsecrets · June 2016

Yes, I want to be kicked in the stomach

Lightninvash · June 2016

This is what I believe the OP means about sub based makes more revenue. After running through the numbers(not exact but very close) I have come up with this. For the subscription based if you just did that bought no crowns you would spend around $105.00 USD (before taxes) if you spent the 6.3 aka 7 months required to sub to gain all of the dlcs and only buying the dlc. Now if you purchase the 5500 crown pack(correct me if I am wrong) last time I bought one it was $44.99(but I will just incase round it up to $50) to buy 2 sets of crown packs at $50 you will spend $100 USD and earn 11,000 crowns.

All the dlc Imperial city=2500 crowns, orisinium=3000 crowns, thieves guild=2000 crowns, and DB=2000 crowns total up to 9500 crowns. when you buy the 5500 crown pack 2x you will spend $100 USD to get all the dlc you will have 1100 crowns and have a spare 1500 crowns to use on whatever you like. When you buy a sub for 7 months(provided you don't buy anything with crowns except dlc) you will earn 10500 crowns and have a spare 1000 crowns. The sub makes you pay a little more and you get less crowns than buying the dlc outright. It also takes time.

So in that aspect yes subbing makes more money than buying the dlc outright. However, some people who buy the dlc via crowns wait for deals/sales on the crown packs. Then there are the other people who like myself want more than just the dlc and buy the crowns for them. it is all speculation as to who spends more the subscribers or the people who buy the dlc outright.

I think this is what the OP meant by eso+ members keep the game going. But then again maybe I am the only one who would actually go and calculate it all and put this together.

Averya_Teira · June 2016

Tyrion87 wrote: »

So I would like to explain you that many of us, non ESO subscribers, give ZOS much more money than only your subscribtion fees by purchasing a lot of crown packs. There are two models of providing financial support for the game: the subscription and the purchase of crown packs. People who spend their money on crown packs (usually much more money than ESO Plus members) also deserve some benefits cause they contribute to the development of the game even more.

You realize ESO plus members buy crown packs too right ?

clayandaudrey_ESO · June 2016

I don't think you can use the subs are a steady revenue stream unless you are on the unheard of mortgage plan where you have signed up for 15 or 30 years. Subs can be canceled at anytime. That means they can not be considered steady.

Like I said earlier these threads are amusing. Both sides are right and wrong at the same time but neither wants to get off their high horse.

By all means please continue.

Transairion · June 2016

Haquor wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

Funny line of thinking, when it was the whole concept of a Subscriber-only ESO that had to be scrapped for ESO to survive at all and the introduction of the Crown Store.

Don't kid yourself, subscriber payment probably makes up only 25% of ESO's revenue if even that. Crown Store is where almost all the money comes from since it's introduction.

A subscriber is garunteed money to zos. For a set period of time they are garunteed a fee. A non subscriber is under no obligation to buy anything.

So... providing things that people want that can only be had while a subscription is active is a decent way to make people subscribe. If it was just thrown on the store for people to one off purchase then there is no incentive to keep paying.

Sure they get a small payment. But not say 6 times that they get from someone with a 6 month subscription who is probably buying the same amount of *** from the store over the term of thier subscription aswel as any non subscriber in the same period.

I would like there to be more incentives like the bag for subscribers. But imagine the rage born out of this sense of entitlement that is so common at the moment.

I get what you're trying to say, but it's just not really too. Sure, Zenimax gets some money from subs but they also LOSE money because subs get free crowns... if you get free crowns, you're not BUYING crowns (unless your spending is through the roof, in which case it really doesn't matter if they're a sub or not).

A "money-smart" sub doesn't buy crowns at all, they just use their allowance to get what they want. Non-subs don't get an allowance so they pay for everything from a point of 0, which ends up basically being all profit for Zeni.

Non sub money = + for Zeni

Sub money = + for Zeni for sub free, - to Zeni for free crowns

Sub fee is reliable to track, but I don't think Zeni has to worry about Crown store suddenly having a massive decline in purchases any time soon.

Xylphan wrote: »

Tyrion87 wrote: »

So I would like to explain you that many of us, non ESO subscribers, give ZOS much more money than only your subscribtion fees by purchasing a lot of crown packs. There are two models of providing financial support for the game: the subscription and the purchase of crown packs. People who spend their money on crown packs (usually much more money than ESO Plus members) also deserve some benefits cause they contribute to the development of the game even more.

Unless you're paying at least $180 per year in crown packs, then no, you are not paying more than a minimum subscriber.

In addition, a subscription represent s guaranteed income stream, which the crown store is not. Subscriptions allow for long term planning, paying the bills, keeping the lights on, etc. Intermittent purchases do not, and only allow planning AFTER the fact.

Subscribers are basically paying for what has to be and what will be done. Crown store purchasers are paying for what might get done if there are enough funds.

The amount of Buy to Play players also massively outnumber the number of subscribers.

What part of "this game was going to die as sub only" does nobody understand? Notice how the Paid Cash Stores only enter into MMO games when the subscription model becomes one of the options, rather than a requirement? This shouldn't be a hard concept to figure out...

FLuFFyxMuFFiN · June 2016

Transairion wrote: »

DannyLV702 wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

Funny line of thinking, when it was the whole concept of a Subscriber-only ESO that had to be scrapped for ESO to survive at all and the introduction of the Crown Store.

Don't kid yourself, subscriber payment probably makes up only 25% of ESO's revenue if even that. Crown Store is where almost all the money comes from since it's introduction.

If your boss told you he was cutting your pay by 25% starting tomorrow, how would you react?

You're going to have to break it down for me, since I can't find the leap of logic you took to link entitled payment for services rendered to "I am a sub and I therefore pay for everything, whorship me!".

Better analogy is if the boss fires 25% of workers, the company probably won't collapse. That's called a minority.

Subscribers aren't the majority by leaps and bounds.

There is a forum poll that says otherwise

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/274601/with-new-perks-being-added-to-eso-plus-members-how-many-of-us-have-subscribed-and-why/p1

Lysette · June 2016

I will compare it with commercial airline services for once:

there is economy class, gets you from A to B, but it is neither comfortable nor would you have any privacy. That is like having just the base game either in normal or imperial edition.

Then there is business class - gets you as well from A to B, but you have better service, more privacy, good dining, exquisite beaverage, you can use the VIP launch - this is like being non-subscribed and buy extras from the crown store in ESO.

And there is first class - gets you all the good features of the other classes plus some extras, like excellent dining and beverages, separate quick and easy check in and boarding and in some cases even a separate cabin with own shower and bed-room for 2, breakfast in bed on board, butler service, limo service (Etihad) - all the good stuff and services to feel really good - and this is like being a subscriber in ESO - premium service quality.

If you want more, you will have to pay for it - simple as that.

MissBizz · June 2016

Lightninvash wrote: »

This is what I believe the OP means about sub based makes more revenue. After running through the numbers(not exact but very close) I have come up with this. For the subscription based if you just did that bought no crowns you would spend around $105.00 USD (before taxes) if you spent the 6.3 aka 7 months required to sub to gain all of the dlcs and only buying the dlc. Now if you purchase the 5500 crown pack(correct me if I am wrong) last time I bought one it was $44.99(but I will just incase round it up to $50) to buy 2 sets of crown packs at $50 you will spend $100 USD and earn 11,000 crowns.

All the dlc Imperial city=2500 crowns, orisinium=3000 crowns, thieves guild=2000 crowns, and DB=2000 crowns total up to 9500 crowns. when you buy the 5500 crown pack 2x you will spend $100 USD to get all the dlc and have a spare 1500 crowns to use on whatever you like. When you buy a sub for 7 months(provided you don't buy anything with crowns except dlc) you will earn 10500 crowns and have a spare 1000 crowns. The sub makes you pay a little more and you get less crowns than buying the dlc outright. It also takes time.

So in that aspect yes subbing makes more money than buying the dlc outright. However, some people who buy the dlc via crowns wait for deals/sales on the crown packs. Then there are the other people who like myself want more than just the dlc and buy the crowns for them. it is all speculation as to who spends more the subscribers or the people who buy the dlc outright.

I think this is what the OP meant by eso+ members keep the game going. But then again maybe I am the only one who would actually go and calculate it all and put this together.

@Lightninvash yeah it's $39.99 usd for the 5500 crown pack, so your math still ends showing up the same way, but purchasing crowns is just slightly cheaper than you have shown.

Really, I don't think we can know who spends more money. I bet there are folks who prefer to buy dlc etc. That spend more than subscribers, but there's also subscribers like myself that sub plus buy crown packs... so some subs spend more that dlc purchasers.

You really can't get "everything" the game has to offer without paying both ways. Look at (what we know about) the style parlour. Everything I saw on there must be purchased via crowns and as a subscriber I need to spend more money on top of my sub, even though subscription is my preferred payment method. That's fine and dandy, I just figured it's interesting to mention the game does seem to want you to use both payment methods simultaneously.

DannyLV702 wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

Funny line of thinking, when it was the whole concept of a Subscriber-only ESO that had to be scrapped for ESO to survive at all and the introduction of the Crown Store.

Don't kid yourself, subscriber payment probably makes up only 25% of ESO's revenue if even that. Crown Store is where almost all the money comes from since it's introduction.

If your boss told you he was cutting your pay by 25% starting tomorrow, how would you react?

You suck it up and work for 25% less. If he is cutting your wage, i would wager there aren't jobs out there for you to go to

Cazzy · June 2016

C0wrex wrote: »

Why can't we all just drop our arms and hug?

Lightninvash · June 2016

Transairion wrote: »

Haquor wrote: »

Transairion wrote: »

Funny line of thinking, when it was the whole concept of a Subscriber-only ESO that had to be scrapped for ESO to survive at all and the introduction of the Crown Store.

Don't kid yourself, subscriber payment probably makes up only 25% of ESO's revenue if even that. Crown Store is where almost all the money comes from since it's introduction.

A subscriber is garunteed money to zos. For a set period of time they are garunteed a fee. A non subscriber is under no obligation to buy anything.

So... providing things that people want that can only be had while a subscription is active is a decent way to make people subscribe. If it was just thrown on the store for people to one off purchase then there is no incentive to keep paying.

Sure they get a small payment. But not say 6 times that they get from someone with a 6 month subscription who is probably buying the same amount of *** from the store over the term of thier subscription aswel as any non subscriber in the same period.

I would like there to be more incentives like the bag for subscribers. But imagine the rage born out of this sense of entitlement that is so common at the moment.

I get what you're trying to say, but it's just not really too. Sure, Zenimax gets some money from subs but they also LOSE money because subs get free crowns... if you get free crowns, you're not BUYING crowns (unless your spending is through the roof, in which case it really doesn't matter if they're a sub or not).

A "money-smart" sub doesn't buy crowns at all, they just use their allowance to get what they want. Non-subs don't get an allowance so they pay for everything from a point of 0, which ends up basically being all profit for Zeni.

Non sub money = + for Zeni

Sub money = + for Zeni for sub free, - to Zeni for free crowns

Sub fee is reliable to track, but I don't think Zeni has to worry about Crown store suddenly having a massive decline in purchases any time soon.

you should read my previous post @Transairion about the differences between sub costs and crown store cost on buying dlc. Now it is all about just buying dlc and not about other crown items that people purchase as well as the DLC. But running the numbers just looking at the DLC the subscribers spend more money(not buying crown packs just subscribing) than people who buy the crowns outright. It is a small amount but it is still there.

But I get where everyone is coming from since this thread is full of speculation because of how can we really know that subscribers are buying additional crown packs or not. Or if the people buying the lion share of the crown packs do they sub now and then for the added perks. Though it does lead into an interesting debate to say the least.

daemonios · June 2016

EstelioVeleth wrote: »

Hey ESO plus subscribers, the rest of us pays for things too ....... maybe even more than you do, yet in your eyes we are still everything that is wrong with the game and dont deserve ***

Yes. In my eyes you are. ZOS have to make money to keep the game running - that's a given. You choose to validate a model that is essentially a monopolistic market of pixels and fluff, episodic content doled out slowly and in tiny doses and that has no connection whatsoever with the cost of developing and maintaining the game. It's a bottomless pit and you can be sure they're going to try and milk every single penny they can out of you with "timed exclusives" and "collector's edition DLC".

I would much rather have a mandatory fixed subscription model where you know exactly how much you're paying for the game and everyone who plays (and therefore pays) gets access to all the content, be it a zone, a dungeon, a trial or just cosmetic stuff.

Transairion · June 2016

There is a forum poll that says otherwise

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/274601/with-new-perks-being-added-to-eso-plus-members-how-many-of-us-have-subscribed-and-why/p1

Sorry if I take a forum poll less than a day old and that only takes in account general discussion posters with a grain of salt.

The majority of the playerbase don't even visit the forum, let alone general discussion, they're sitting in the game. With ESO's "forum code" system where you can't even sign up on your own, I'd wager participation is even less than most MMO's forum.

But yeah, sure, ESO went Buy to Play because it had enough subs to keep existing as sub-only. Whatever helps you sleep at night...

CherryCake · June 2016

daemonios wrote: »

EstelioVeleth wrote: »

Hey ESO plus subscribers, the rest of us pays for things too ....... maybe even more than you do, yet in your eyes we are still everything that is wrong with the game and dont deserve ***

Yes. In my eyes you are. ZOS have to make money to keep the game running - that's a given. You choose to validate a model that is essentially a monopolistic market of pixels and fluff, episodic content doled out slowly and in tiny doses and that has no connection whatsoever with the cost of developing and maintaining the game. It's a bottomless pit and you can be sure they're going to try and milk every single penny they can out of you with "timed exclusives" and "collector's edition DLC".

I would much rather have a mandatory fixed subscription model where you know exactly how much you're paying for the game and everyone who plays (and therefore pays) gets access to all the content, be it a zone, a dungeon, a trial or just cosmetic stuff.

How...how do you even think? If you pay lets say 200 dollars per year, and I pay 200 too, how are YOUR money spent more valid than mine? You can also unsub at any time, just like I can stop buying crowns at any time, why is your money more valuable? Maybe you subs have to get off your high horses and think that you are the only ones keeping the game up.