White Gold Tower / Imperial City Prison why?!

Balticthunder · June 2016

Why those two dungeons are in "normal" dungeon finder suggested for level 10!!! (or it was lvl15, no matter). Low level PUGs struggle so hard - never finished one so far (lvl 25 now), groups mostly give up at second or third boss. Those two DLC (if I'm not mistaken) dungeons are much bigger than your standard low level first dungeons and bosses do insane damage. At low levels people don't have that good gear, skills and general skill to do such stuff, they are still learning! Why someone thought that it would be fine to send low level noobs in these dungeons, which probably was suggested for V16?
Scaled normal dungeons are stressful enough for low levels to complete, but this two... I see it kinda of "shooting yourself in own leg" doing by Zenimax themselves: new players get very bad first experience with such ""starter dungeons" and many give up on game - is it your goal, i bet no!?
I think those two dungeons, WGT and ICP, must be moved up as suggested ones for higher levels!

ShedsHisTail · June 2016

Balticthunder wrote: »

Why those two dungeons are in "normal" dungeon finder suggested for level 10!!! (or it was lvl15, no matter). Low level PUGs struggle so hard - never finished one so far (lvl 25 now), groups mostly give up at second or third boss. Those two DLC (if I'm not mistaken) dungeons are much bigger than your standard low level first dungeons and bosses do insane damage. At low levels people don't have that good gear, skills and general skill to do such stuff, they are still learning! Why someone thought that it would be fine to send low level noobs in these dungeons, which probably was suggested for V16?
Scaled normal dungeons are stressful enough for low levels to complete, but this two... I see it kinda of "shooting yourself in own leg" doing by Zenimax themselves: new players get very bad first experience with such ""starter dungeons" and many give up on game - is it your goal, i bet no!?
I think those two dungeons, WGT and ICP, must be moved up as suggested ones for higher levels!

I dunno... My Level 46 Tank finished WGT the other night with a 27, and 11, and a 15.

Took a few tries for folks to learn the mechanics, but it wasn't that bad.

Balticthunder · June 2016

Lol sure, lvl 46 tank! You carried your group - you can stand long enough in red to survive, while lvl 20 or 10 tank is almost oneshoted there and the rest of party of course is dead in few seconds after, c'mon!

Balticthunder · June 2016

I even think at lvl 10 you cannot seriously be considered as tank with so few skills and poor gear! I'm not asking "did you managed to complete this dungeon", I am asking to move it as suggested for higher levels, not as starter dungeons!

ShedsHisTail · June 2016

Balticthunder wrote: »

Lol sure, lvl 46 tank! You carried your group - you can stand long enough in red to survive, while lvl 20 or 10 tank is almost oneshoted there and the rest is of party of course is dead in few seconds after, c'mon!

Everyone pulled their weight alright.
In WGT especially, there's enough fights that the tank really doesn't have a lot control.

The Harvester throwing folks in a cage, Tank can't do anything about that.
The three dudes, can't tank 'em all unless you want stacked banners.

I mean, other than trash, my role in there wasn't especially heavy. I certainly didn't carry it.

Balticthunder · June 2016

Oh my, I repeat - I'm not asking how someone managed to beat that dungeon at lvl 40 or how good they are, I am saying that these two are brutal being suggested as first dungeons for low level players, who just begins the game, which causes bad experience with game and makes people ragequit. /sigh

ShedsHisTail · June 2016

Balticthunder wrote: »

Oh my, I repeat - I'm not asking how someone managed to beat that dungeon at lvl 40 or how good they are, I am saying that these two are brutal being suggested as first dungeons for low level players, who just begins the game, which causes bad experience with game and makes people ragequit. /sigh

And I'm disputing that by saying that the low level players I ran with did perfectly fine and it wasn't a traumatic experience for anyone. Your mileage may vary.

Incidentally, while I'd been though it once on my DPS toon, I'd never tanked it before either.

Edit: Honestly, I think having challenging dungeons up front is a good thing. It teaches players to learn the mechanics early on, making them less helpless down the road. Nothing worse than running a Vet dungeon with a group of folks who don't know what they're doing because they never had to learn.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but that's gonna happen sometimes.

lolo_01b16_ESO · June 2016

It's due to scaling. In the past you used to have different dungeons for different levels. Starting with Banished Cells / Spindlecluth / Fungal Grotto at lvl 12 up to Vaults of madness at 45. The ver dungeons had a similar setup with 3 dungeons for v1-v5, 3 dungeons for v6-10, crypt of hearts at v12 and city of ash at v14. As a general rule the mechanics in these dungeons became harder and harder. In banished cells you have a lot of time to dodge before you get hit, in vet city of ash you need to be fast.
Now at some point they addet scaling to allow everyone to play every dungeon at every time (with vet dungeons being restricted to vet players) but they didn't change the mechanics. So there are still dungeons with harder and easier mechanics, they just removed the lables.
This is something I totally want to see changed as I think a lot of problems and discussions about difficulty come from the problem that new players don't know which dungeons should be entered to get some base experiance about group play in eso.

ShedsHisTail · June 2016

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

It's due to scaling. In the past you used to have different dungeons for different levels. Starting with Banished Cells / Spindlecluth / Fungal Grotto at lvl 12 up to Vaults of madness at 45. The ver dungeons had a similar setup with 3 dungeons for v1-v5, 3 dungeons for v6-10, crypt of hearts at v12 and city of ash at v14. As a general rule the mechanics in these dungeons became harder and harder. In banished cells you have a lot of time to dodge before you get hit, in vet city of ash you need to be fast.
Now at some point they addet scaling to allow everyone to play every dungeon at every time (with vet dungeons being restricted to vet players) but they didn't change the mechanics. So there are still dungeons with harder and easier mechanics, they just removed the lables.
This is something I totally want to see changed as I think a lot of problems and discussions about difficulty come from the problem that new players don't know which dungeons should be entered to get some base experiance about group play in eso.

No, I'm pretty sure the level restrictions for those dungeons still exist.

If you queue up for Randoms at level 12, I'm pretty sure you'll only get placed in Fungal, Banished, or Spindle (or ICP or WGT, if they're open). The reason you can get placed into WGT or ICP is because they're gated by PvP, not by level. Since you can enter Cyrodiil at level 10, level 10 characters have to have access to the dungeons.

If you set a higher minimum level, then you lock out those low level PvP players who want in.

Balticthunder · June 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Edit: Honestly, I think having challenging dungeons up front is a good thing. It teaches players to learn the mechanics early on, making them less helpless down the road. Nothing worse than running a Vet dungeon with a group of folks who don't know what they're doing because they never had to learn.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but that's gonna happen sometimes.

But it does exactly opposite! If low level player get through such dungeon because there is higher levels in their group, they learn almost nothing, because as tank, for example, they get outhealed or dps tear down bosses in seconds, so they think everything was cool and fine and they continue to stand in red, never block, disrupt or dodge in next dungeons, because in reality they learned nothing. As a healer I see it every time - in best cases tank puts up his shield, but that's all, people stand in red, never disrupts, bash, tanks never go after ranged NPC, just stand in front of boss with shield up, then group get wiped, everybody quits and with same skill/knowledge go into next dungeon.

ShedsHisTail · June 2016

Balticthunder wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Edit: Honestly, I think having challenging dungeons up front is a good thing. It teaches players to learn the mechanics early on, making them less helpless down the road. Nothing worse than running a Vet dungeon with a group of folks who don't know what they're doing because they never had to learn.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience, but that's gonna happen sometimes.

But it does exactly opposite! If low level player get through such dungeon because there is higher levels in their group, they learn almost nothing, because as tank, for example, they get outhealed or dps tear down bosses in seconds, so they think everything was cool and fine and they continue to stand in red, never block, disrupt or dodge in next dungeons, because in reality they learned nothing. As a healer I see it every time - in best cases tank puts up his shield, but that's all, people stand in red, never disrupts, bash, tanks never go after ranged NPC, just stand in front of boss with shield up, then group get wiped, everybody quits and with same skill/knowledge go into next dungeon.

If everyone wipes and quits, then yeah, they aren't going to learn anything.
That's how it is for -everything.-

Players with the tenacity to stick it out and learn (ie: the PuG group I ran with) will come out of it better players. I don't want to play a game that's designed to cater to quitters and crybabies. I want to play with the people who like the challenge and strive to improve and overcome.

Balticthunder · June 2016

Yea, I heard that, good for you, but I instead talk about new low level players.
I repeat once more, I"m not asking remove any challenge or any dungeon, I just suggest to move those particular two dungeons up to higher levels, when noobs already learned some mechanics and are ready for bigger challenges, these two dungeons is no way meant for level 10 new players!

wayfarerx · June 2016

Balticthunder wrote: »

Yea, I heard that, good for you, but I instead talk about new low level players.
I repeat once more, I"m not asking remove any challenge or any dungeon, I just suggest to move those particular two dungeons up to higher levels, when noobs already learned some mechanics and are ready for bigger challenges, these two dungeons is no way meant for level 10 new players!

You can do this dungeon at level 10 if you are in decent level 10 gear and have decent level 10-ish food. All of that will scale up and make it so that beating the dungeon is at least a possibility.

If you are in dropped, mismatched, non-set green gear with no food then yes, you're doomed.

Yes you will be missing skills at level 10, but there are not any skills you absolutely need to win, it can be done with very little. It will be difficult, yes. Sometimes things are difficult. Sometimes you have to fail at something and come back later to try again.

I'm sure if you mention where exactly you had trouble people would be glad to give suggestions, but just saying the same thing over and over is not going to get you very far.

ShedsHisTail · June 2016

Balticthunder wrote: »

Yea, I heard that, good for you, but I instead talk about new low level players.
I repeat once more, I"m not asking remove any challenge or any dungeon, I just suggest to move those particular two dungeons up to higher levels, when noobs already learned some mechanics and are ready for bigger challenges, these two dungeons is no way meant for level 10 new players!

I understand what you're asking, and I'm saying I disagree with you and that they aren't that bad.

If you had posted this a month ago, I'd have agreed with you.
But since the nerfs, these dungeons are fine.

lolo_01b16_ESO · June 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

It's due to scaling. In the past you used to have different dungeons for different levels. Starting with Banished Cells / Spindlecluth / Fungal Grotto at lvl 12 up to Vaults of madness at 45. The ver dungeons had a similar setup with 3 dungeons for v1-v5, 3 dungeons for v6-10, crypt of hearts at v12 and city of ash at v14. As a general rule the mechanics in these dungeons became harder and harder. In banished cells you have a lot of time to dodge before you get hit, in vet city of ash you need to be fast.
Now at some point they addet scaling to allow everyone to play every dungeon at every time (with vet dungeons being restricted to vet players) but they didn't change the mechanics. So there are still dungeons with harder and easier mechanics, they just removed the lables.
This is something I totally want to see changed as I think a lot of problems and discussions about difficulty come from the problem that new players don't know which dungeons should be entered to get some base experiance about group play in eso.

No, I'm pretty sure the level restrictions for those dungeons still exist.

If you queue up for Randoms at level 12, I'm pretty sure you'll only get placed in Fungal, Banished, or Spindle (or ICP or WGT, if they're open). The reason you can get placed into WGT or ICP is because they're gated by PvP, not by level. Since you can enter Cyrodiil at level 10, level 10 characters have to have access to the dungeons.

If you set a higher minimum level, then you lock out those low level PvP players who want in.

No, that's wrong. I recently got grouped for vaults of madness on my new templar way before I reached it's original level. I still remember it since I struggled a bit getting skyshards in alik'r afterwards due to being underleveled, so I guess I was around lvl 25.

ShedsHisTail · June 2016

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

It's due to scaling. In the past you used to have different dungeons for different levels. Starting with Banished Cells / Spindlecluth / Fungal Grotto at lvl 12 up to Vaults of madness at 45. The ver dungeons had a similar setup with 3 dungeons for v1-v5, 3 dungeons for v6-10, crypt of hearts at v12 and city of ash at v14. As a general rule the mechanics in these dungeons became harder and harder. In banished cells you have a lot of time to dodge before you get hit, in vet city of ash you need to be fast.
Now at some point they addet scaling to allow everyone to play every dungeon at every time (with vet dungeons being restricted to vet players) but they didn't change the mechanics. So there are still dungeons with harder and easier mechanics, they just removed the lables.
This is something I totally want to see changed as I think a lot of problems and discussions about difficulty come from the problem that new players don't know which dungeons should be entered to get some base experiance about group play in eso.

No, I'm pretty sure the level restrictions for those dungeons still exist.

If you queue up for Randoms at level 12, I'm pretty sure you'll only get placed in Fungal, Banished, or Spindle (or ICP or WGT, if they're open). The reason you can get placed into WGT or ICP is because they're gated by PvP, not by level. Since you can enter Cyrodiil at level 10, level 10 characters have to have access to the dungeons.

If you set a higher minimum level, then you lock out those low level PvP players who want in.

No, that's wrong. I recently got grouped for vaults of madness on my new templar way before I reached it's original level. I still remember it since I struggled a bit getting skyshards in alik'r afterwards due to being underleveled, so I guess I was around lvl 25.

I'll take your word for it.
Never had that happen to any of my low level toons; always level-appropriate.

Balticthunder · June 2016

wayfarerx wrote: »

I'm sure if you mention where exactly you had trouble people would be glad to give suggestions, but just saying the same thing over and over is not going to get you very far.

I thought I mentioned problem very clear, but it seems people just don't get it! I'm not asking you any advice or help how to complete dungeon, this topics is not about this, but you people, turn it that way every time!
I am talking about fresh low level players, who have no skill, no set gear, no game experience and their frustrating experience in those first two dungeons!
But ok, I see that you think that those two dungeons are perfectly fine for level 10 player to start their dungeon experience and must stay that way.

wayfarerx · June 2016

Balticthunder wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

I'm sure if you mention where exactly you had trouble people would be glad to give suggestions, but just saying the same thing over and over is not going to get you very far.

I thought I mentioned problem very clear, but it seems people just don't get it! I'm not asking you any advice or help how to complete dungeon, this topics is not about this, but you people, turn it that way every time!
I am talking about fresh low level players, who have no skill, no set gear, no game experience and their frustrating experience in those first two dungeons!
But ok, I see that you think that those two dungeons are perfectly fine for level 10 player to start their dungeon experience and must stay that way.

Okay, fine. So what level do you think should be required for these dungeons and what is your rationale for the level you set?

Balticthunder · June 2016

I think it could be for level 30 or 40 at least, when people have some gear and skills on their hands. You see, dungeons like Elden Hollow / Wayrest Sewers, which are suggested for lvl 20, they are much smaller/shorter in time and much easier than Withe Tower and Prison.