How to fix Keep flipping via jumping in

MaxwellC · June 2016

Make it so that keeps need the inner wall to be down in order to capture the flags. I'm tired of AD jumping into ash/aleswell and capturing keeps without playing it fair. I can easily jump into a keep but refuse to unless it's defended/bursted because I'd rather not undermine cyrodiil; yet people climb into the keep thanks to the broken gap closers and before you know it without a warning you just lost a keep.
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

It seems this wasn't clear since I tried to avoid boldy sharing how it's done but i will now say it. People are getting into keeps using broken gap closers by aggroing NPCs within the keep then gap closing on top of the keep which allows them to capture it while it is not flagged.

idk · June 2016

Have seen a number of threads on the topic including one of my own. I have yet to see a response.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom anything you can share with us to indicate if a fix is in the works? Thx.

AJ_1988 · June 2016

I'm waiting on a PM reply about the issue if I hear anything before you guys do I'll post it here

MaxwellC · June 2016

Yeah it's getting out of hand and it's funny only one alliance does this and it's AD not even EP did it when I was 1 keep away from emp but AD did. You'd look at your map then see ash for example not attacked then suddenly it turns yellow and everyone is like "Yup AD did it again".

Wollust · June 2016

That solution is no good and would handicap outnumbered groups even more.

Voxicity · June 2016

AD OP

MaxwellC · June 2016

@Wollust
If the inner wall is down (which you need to get down in order to get inside) how is that no good and would handicap small groups? That's the way Cyrodiil is suppose to function; outer and inner wall down first then you're able to capture the flags. I've solo'd plenty of keeps (not that it is impressive because it's not) and I still break down both outer/inner then capture the flags.

Wollust · June 2016

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@Wollust
If the inner wall is down (which you need to get down in order to get inside) how is that no good and would handicap small groups? That's the way Cyrodiil is suppose to function; outer and inner wall down first then you're able to capture the flags. I've solo'd plenty of keeps (not that it is impressive because it's not) and I still break down both outer/inner then capture the flags.

Because a group of defenders outnumbering the small group can simply repair the inner at some point, thus punishing the small group that is busy trying to kill the ever ressing group. Ofc considering the small group sieged open both walls first.
Experience it more often than I'd like to. We run into the keep and start killing people left and right, but because they can res up quite fast we need to keep killing. Takes usually a few minutes till we're able to clear it. In the meantime the wall is in 90% of the cases already repaired. Good for us when we manage to take the keep, bad for us when people start dying and can't enter anymore.
If your suggestion would be put in place, it would be almost impossible to take a keep with a small group if the bigger group simply starts repairing at some point. Which they can and will do. We would have to sacrifice one person to simply keep sieging because of such a mechanic. Which punishes the already outnumbered group.

I'd rather suggest a new notification or symbol on the map. If guards start dying with a keep not under siege a symbol appears on the map. Or something like that. This would give people enough time to react in most cases.

bowmanz607 · June 2016

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Make it so that keeps need the inner wall to be down in order to capture the flags. I'm tired of AD jumping into ash/aleswell and capturing keeps without playing it fair. I can easily jump into a keep but refuse to unless it's defended/bursted because I'd rather not undermine cyrodiil; yet people climb into the keep thanks to the broken gap closers and before you know it without a warning you just lost a keep.
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Idk about that. There is a fair way to get into the inner part of a keep from the outside 4 corners of the keep by using propelling shield. That is a valid tactic that requires enemy players to be around to pull off. It also requires speccing to it and having someone give a slot up to run it.

Also, the gap closer issue was fixed for the most part on pc so console should see a fix. Don't take away valid tactics because of broken ones.

MaxwellC · June 2016

@Wollust So you think it's ok for a small group to hop into the keep and take it over when no one is around versus people who siege the outer wall than the inner because of the excuse that someone can start repairing the wall (Which is possible if you do not coordinate your siege). Sorry if you want a small group to take down the keep it requires coordination to bypass the cheese of repairing the wall since the threshold that disallows them to repair the wall isn't met. I know a little about that because I had two people do that to me when I went to solo cap drakelowe.

It's not difficult to monitor the percentages/health of the wall while you kill I do that all the time when a group hits the keep and runs off trying to kill everyone at the main gate, I do both I monitor/use the siege while trying to get some hits in for AP. I'm all for small group play but the game isn't played where you're allowed to hop into keeps and solo cap it without it being flagged and even if guards started to die what does that mean? NOTHING. Oh guards die and they're dying at fort ash well I can only go to brindle,glademist,aleswell, or if roebeck/it's outpost isn't hit I can blood spawn there but I'd still have to try to get into the keep that would already have flipped by the time I got there with the walls repaired.

@bowmanz607 It isn't a valid tactic btw it's considered an exploit according to ZOS who commented stating that "Entering the inner keep without the walls being down is considered an Exploit" If you want I can very well quote you it.

ZOS_AmeliaR wrote: »

ZOS_AmeliaR wrote: »

Since this is not intended functionality, continued use of this would be considered an exploit, so please refrain from doing so. Ultimately, any method of entering an enemy keep without breaking down the door is considered an exploit. Thanks for checking!

Potenza · June 2016

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Yeah it's getting out of hand and it's funny only one alliance does this and it's AD not even EP did it when I was 1 keep away from emp but AD did. You'd look at your map then see ash for example not attacked then suddenly it turns yellow and everyone is like "Yup AD did it again".

ALL alliances are doing it.

MaxwellC · June 2016

^Mate only on Console have I seen AD do it that's my claim about that scenario it may be different for you but in my campaign haderus it's only AD I haven't seen EP hit it that way nor have I seen DC do it (leaping into an unguarded keep without breaking the outer wall).

Jakhajay · June 2016

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Yeah it's getting out of hand and it's funny only one alliance does this and it's AD not even EP did it when I was 1 keep away from emp but AD did. You'd look at your map then see ash for example not attacked then suddenly it turns yellow and everyone is like "Yup AD did it again".

Funny, I've seen EP and DC do this too. We're all as bad as each other

Cryptical · June 2016

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Yeah it's getting out of hand and it's funny only one alliance does this and it's AD not even EP did it when I was 1 keep away from emp but AD did. You'd look at your map then see ash for example not attacked then suddenly it turns yellow and everyone is like "Yup AD did it again".

I've heard of reds and blues doing this in Skull campaign, Xbox NA. We call the red/blue cooperation 'Team Purple'. I'm not as snappy with the video recording of it, only have one so far showing that Team Purple exists - console simply isn't as conducive to recording as pc is.

bowmanz607 · June 2016

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@Wollust So you think it's ok for a small group to hop into the keep and take it over when no one is around versus people who siege the outer wall than the inner because of the excuse that someone can start repairing the wall (Which is possible if you do not coordinate your siege). Sorry if you want a small group to take down the keep it requires coordination to bypass the cheese of repairing the wall since the threshold that disallows them to repair the wall isn't met. I know a little about that because I had two people do that to me when I went to solo cap drakelowe.

It's not difficult to monitor the percentages/health of the wall while you kill I do that all the time when a group hits the keep and runs off trying to kill everyone at the main gate, I do both I monitor/use the siege while trying to get some hits in for AP. I'm all for small group play but the game isn't played where you're allowed to hop into keeps and solo cap it without it being flagged and even if guards started to die what does that mean? NOTHING. Oh guards die and they're dying at fort ash well I can only go to brindle,glademist,aleswell, or if roebeck/it's outpost isn't hit I can blood spawn there but I'd still have to try to get into the keep that would already have flipped by the time I got there with the walls repaired.

@bowmanz607 It isn't a valid tactic btw it's considered an exploit according to ZOS who commented stating that "Entering the inner keep without the walls being down is considered an Exploit" If you want I can very well quote you it.

ZOS_AmeliaR wrote: »

ZOS_AmeliaR wrote: »

Since this is not intended functionality, continued use of this would be considered an exploit, so please refrain from doing so. Ultimately, any method of entering an enemy keep without breaking down the door is considered an exploit. Thanks for checking!

thanks for letting me know. But can you link where this was so I can double check source please.

MaxwellC · June 2016

@bowmanz607
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/150232/blobs-unkillable-1vx-an-eso-pvp-edit-nightblade-eu-dc-inside-enemy-keep/p2

Jaronking · June 2016

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

^Mate only on Console have I seen AD do it that's my claim about that scenario it may be different for you but in my campaign haderus it's only AD I haven't seen EP hit it that way nor have I seen DC do it (leaping into an unguarded keep without breaking the outer wall).

@MaxwellCrystal to tell you the truth I only play DC and did it a few times on Haderus.It was fun not to mentioned played Scrounge most of the morning through afternoon and EP jumped into Rayles trying to take their scroll back with three people. Personal I see no problem with doing it if the keep is guarded it make defending and taking keeps a lot more fun.Personally don't consider it a exploit and the beat addition the patch bring into the game.

If its the last EmP keep I could see why your upset but your fix will make it harder for smaller groups to take keeps like @Wollust mentioned it makes taking keeps outnumbered even harder for smaller groups.I don't want to have to run with 20+ people to take a dam keep.

bowmanz607 · June 2016

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@bowmanz607
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/150232/blobs-unkillable-1vx-an-eso-pvp-edit-nightblade-eu-dc-inside-enemy-keep/p2

thanks,

but I am going to nit pick. technically, it states that any method other than breaking down the door. That would mean entering through broken walls is an exploit

Additionally, it is unclear as to whether this means the inner keep or the just the initial breach. This is vague and should be striked down lol.

But seriously, @ZOS_AmeliaR is using propelling shield with leap/teleport strike on an enemy player to get from outer keep tower to inner keep wall a valid tactic given the need to spec to propelling shield and slotting it a valid tactic?

Wollust · June 2016

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMs--Ire21c

Now tell me how are we supposed to watch the walls from being repaired while heavily outnumbered? It's literally impossible to do. In this particular fight we lost in the end. But we have often such fights and we lose some, we win some. With your idea implemented, even if we would kill every single enemy inside the keep, we would not be able to take the keep or outpost immediately simply because they managed to repair the wall. That's why I am saying your idea is punishment for outnumbered groups.
Idk if you are just a person who runs with big numbers and say that it is so easy, but it is certainly not with only 10 people in a group. No need to punish small groups further. They already have the odds against them in terms of raw damage, healing, damage mitigation and ressing possibilities. There does not need to be a cheesy mechanic more that completely prevents them from taking a keep simply because ZoS is not competent enough to implement a working fix to gap closers.

As I said, a symbol appearing when guards (except those outside of the keep and on the towers) are dying while the keep is not under siege would help much more because you can't take flags anyway without killing guards. That means as soon as one group (or someone) jumps into the keeps and starts killing the NPCs, the keep would be flagged with a symbol and people could start porting in and defend it. It would not prevent groups (or individuals) from jumping into the keep but it would help a lot to not lose keeps out of nowhere. The symbol would obviously not mean that the keep is put under siege status. It would just say: "GUARDS ARE DYING HERE".

incognito222 · June 2016

j.murro2ub17_ESO wrote: »

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Yeah it's getting out of hand and it's funny only one alliance does this and it's AD not even EP did it when I was 1 keep away from emp but AD did. You'd look at your map then see ash for example not attacked then suddenly it turns yellow and everyone is like "Yup AD did it again".

ALL alliances are doing it.

Its not the alliance, the players are to blame ... agree, nasty exploiters in ALL alliances are doing it and they're ruining the game for the whole community with their exploits. Fairly common example : players ambush on to a keep wall one by one, to their friend of opposing alliance standing on outer wall, and they all merrily go into the keep to claim it from the inside, or to run away with a scroll without breaching the walls.

MaxwellC · June 2016

@Wollust
I for one always run solo as I eluded to when I stated I solo cap keeps depending on the size defending it when it becomes bursted. My point still stands players should not be able to use NPCs to get into a keep then take it over that's not something you can justify with a video mate sorry but that's it.

Let's reverse the scenario let's say a small group was in Ash and a big group of 15 players jumped into the keep using the NPC thanks to the gap closer; how would that play out for you right there? Your team would wipe and spawn back in and wipe again and again until they took the keep over.

Wollust · June 2016

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

@Wollust
I for one always run solo as I eluded to when I stated I solo cap keeps depending on the size defending it when it becomes bursted. My point still stands players should not be able to use NPCs to get into a keep then take it over that's not something you can justify with a video mate sorry but that's it.

Let's reverse the scenario let's say a small group was in Ash and a big group of 15 players jumped into the keep using the NPC thanks to the gap closer; how would that play out for you right there? Your team would wipe and spawn back in and wipe again and again until they took the keep over.

When did I ever state they should be able to jump in via NPC? I don't disagree at all with you there, but introducing a mechanic around it that punishes legit gameplay is no solution whatsoever and that is my issue.

So what? The small group will simply alert in zonechat (which console is getting now as well) and the masses will start pouring into ash and deal with it at some point.
Btw, the keep needs to be flagged as under siege to start flipping. So no, they would not just simply wipe people and then start flipping it. They'd have to put it under siege at some point during that scenario.

Nonetheless, it all comes down to ZoS finally finding a proper fix for the gap closer issue instead of doing some workaround stuff that might be harmful.

Cherryblossom · June 2016

I don't like any of your ideas, I want ZOS to fix the broken mechanic for a change rather than ignore it.

MaxwellC · June 2016

@Wollust
That is incorrect the keep does not need to be flagged for it to be flipped. I've seen it happen many times when I'd search the map for the battle then next thing you know ash is now yellow even though it wasn't flagged. You're assuming that players will go and alert that someone is at ash by the time they would do that with 15 people on a flag that keep would've flipped with not nearly as many combatants as you think they'd get, able to make it into the keep before it flips.

That's the point I was making, I did say I jump into keeps but only if there's activity/it being bursted. That meant I wasn't cheesing it by using a NPC like AD was doing. That's what was confusing me I was wondering why you were supporting such a cheesy mechanic while trying to uphold a Idea I agree with when it comes to players vs player and not player vs NPC.

That mechanic isn't new by the way it happens with outposts at-least I experienced it solo capping it by sneaking in with a stealth pot why they repaired. I had to literally setup siege within the outpost and break down the wall for me to capture it by myself. I'm sure if more than 1 player is there then you could do the same without breaking the wall down.

@Cherryblossom
I only have one idea not multiple but I'd rather not have players jump into the keep using NPCs so someone can capture it, I'm all for jumping into keeps when there's player activity especially since I'm a DK.

Cherryblossom · June 2016

@MaxwellCrystal I still want them to fix it, we don't need new things added, we need broken stuff fixing, simple as.

Recremen · June 2016

Wollust wrote: »

That solution is no good and would handicap outnumbered groups even more.

The solution is fine. Exactly how often are you trying to flip flags when the inner keep wall is up? If the opponent has enough of a force to repair you in, you weren't going to flip those flags anyway, they'd just outstack you on them.