When will we hear ANYTHING from the combat team on upcoming changes?

rfennell_ESO · June 2016

The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.

Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.

It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.

However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.

I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.

I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.

FENGRUSH · June 2016

I wont be in bombard form. FENGRUSH is slaying targets.

We just need to remove AOE caps to move forward in a reasonable solution on these things. Brace for it.

Zheg · June 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I wont be in bombard form. FENGRUSH is slaying targets.

We just need to remove AOE caps to move forward in a reasonable solution on these things. Brace for it.

Inc alt named LORD FENGOLAS, the elf archer who will root the armies of mordor. He gives free ERP sessions during off hours to make up for the bombard spam guilt.

Lore_lai · June 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I like seeing ball groups of healers getting negated. It is a beautiful thing.

Satiar · June 2016

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.

Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.

It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.

However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.

I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.

I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.

Retreating spam doesn't do anything to bombard spam because the effect is removed with practically every skill you use. It doesn't help that bombard is ALSO applying poisons and the magic counter to this (purge) is broken as ffffff.

It's not just a counter to magica, it's a hard counter. With purge broken it's just about the most frustrating play I've ever engaged in lol. I mean yeah, we adjusted after a few horrible days of it, but it remains a form of gameplay that makes me want to break my keyboard. Watching 40 people spread out around me twanging endless bombards as they backpedal.... It brings tears to this Nord Princess' eyes.

Satiar · June 2016

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I wont be in bombard form. FENGRUSH is slaying targets.

We just need to remove AOE caps to move forward in a reasonable solution on these things. Brace for it.

I always agreed on aoe caps but honestly man, it's not even a thing anymore. I can't even remember the last time aoe caps would have made a difference. Ball groups are a thing of the past.

Zheg · June 2016

Satiar wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.

Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.

It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.

However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.

I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.

I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.

Retreating spam doesn't do anything to bombard spam because the effect is removed with practically every skill you use. It doesn't help that bombard is ALSO applying poisons and the magic counter to this (purge) is broken as ffffff.

It's not just a counter to magica, it's a hard counter. With purge broken it's just about the most frustrating play I've ever engaged in lol. I mean yeah, we adjusted after a few horrible days of it, but it remains a form of gameplay that makes me want to break my keyboard. Watching 40 people spread out around me twanging endless bombards as they backpedal.... It brings tears to this Nord Princess' eyes.

One of the defining characteristics of a DK was the ability to aoe root. Bombard does it better, safer, and as steve mentioned - can apply poisons with ever cast. Why would you ever use talons or encase over bombard?

Why would you reward the bowtard way in the back more than the DK that needs to be in melee range and take risks? Why would you let the bowtard have the capacity to root such a large area compared to a DK that can only do it in 6m radius? It makes no sense, none. People can defend the root meta, theyre entitled to their opinions. No one can defend bombard being leagues above a DKs capacity to root.

rfennell_ESO · June 2016

Satiar wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.

Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.

It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.

However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.

I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.

I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.

Retreating spam doesn't do anything to bombard spam because the effect is removed with practically every skill you use. It doesn't help that bombard is ALSO applying poisons and the magic counter to this (purge) is broken as ffffff.

It's not just a counter to magica, it's a hard counter. With purge broken it's just about the most frustrating play I've ever engaged in lol. I mean yeah, we adjusted after a few horrible days of it, but it remains a form of gameplay that makes me want to break my keyboard. Watching 40 people spread out around me twanging endless bombards as they backpedal.... It brings tears to this Nord Princess' eyes.

It works if you are bombing and not using abilities is the point.

Lastly I don't think bombard applies poisons. Poison yes, but from my totally informal testing poison is only applied to one target. Love to see someone know more.

Master_Kas · June 2016

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.

Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.

It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.

However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.

I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.

I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.

And what counter does stamina builds have? Shuffle + dodgeroll vs all single target attacks. Crazy healing with vigor and rally, on top of crazy damage. Atleast mag builds you can slow down with roots and snares, even with elusive mist, eventually they'll run out of magicka because there is no mana reg when using it.

Stamina builds this patch makes me want to vomit.

rfennell_ESO · June 2016

Zheg wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.

Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.

It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.

However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.

I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.

I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.

Retreating spam doesn't do anything to bombard spam because the effect is removed with practically every skill you use. It doesn't help that bombard is ALSO applying poisons and the magic counter to this (purge) is broken as ffffff.

It's not just a counter to magica, it's a hard counter. With purge broken it's just about the most frustrating play I've ever engaged in lol. I mean yeah, we adjusted after a few horrible days of it, but it remains a form of gameplay that makes me want to break my keyboard. Watching 40 people spread out around me twanging endless bombards as they backpedal.... It brings tears to this Nord Princess' eyes.

One of the defining characteristics of a DK was the ability to aoe root. Bombard does it better, safer, and as steve mentioned - can apply poisons with ever cast. Why would you ever use talons or encase over bombard?

Why would you reward the bowtard way in the back more than the DK that needs to be in melee range and take risks? Why would you let the bowtard have the capacity to root such a large area compared to a DK that can only do it in 6m radius? It makes no sense, none. People can defend the root meta, theyre entitled to their opinions. No one can defend bombard being leagues above a DKs capacity to root.

The increased range in cryo probably shouldn't be applied to bombard. It is though... so the cone is far better than anything else.

Bombard spamming... eh. Bombard drains a lot of stamina. When I slot it I only use it situationally, and by that I mean when I see a whole group of clothies with proxy up... damn straight I'm gonna spam em with it. Nothing funnier than an entire bomb group standing in place with their proxy dets going off with no one near them.

zyk · June 2016

Satiar wrote: »

We are nearing the end of Ze Olde Top Teir guilds anyways. There were more top EP guilds on Thornblade than there are on all of NA PC now. The problem will likely sort itself out that way

Perhaps, but new groups and players will continue to emerge and be shaped by the same gameplay carrots and sticks of today -- with the same results.

Zheg wrote: »

Zyk, before VE went blue and I'd solo or duo the entire time, I never expected to take out a raid group. Go after backline, pressure them with siege while a group fought them, drop my ulti when someone else was bombing them, but I never expected to take them on and not have it end poorly. The same was true in gw2. The mentality of pvpers this game baffles me. It's like everyone thinks they should be able Rambo organized groups and put together a highlight video.

I play a similar style when solo. But that's not what I was getting at.

IMO, the large zergs like NPK/CN/PM were all a result of the lack of competitive balance. In each of those mobs, there were opponents I can recall playing in smaller groups and getting farmed constantly. That wasn't going to last forever. They found, as humans tend to do, some semblance of safety in numbers.

I don't think a faction-wide zerg is any player's first choice. The seeds of these groups are planted in tower and other types of farms where randoms are frequently left to fend for themselves against organized groups. Throughout the history of this game, it's normal for the best groups of each faction to generally ignore what the others are doing while each of them finds less competitive players to farm.

I know because I used to scout a lot and I would frequently observe this.

So they zerg up until they have the numbers to overwhelm and become a scourge to server performance.

I don't blame anyone outside of ZOS. The game design shapes how we play. It needs to be changed so the most profitable choice for uber_guild_x is to fight uber_guild_y. There also need to be less profitable choices where players know they can find both weaker competition and weaker rewards without zerging.

rfennell_ESO · June 2016

Master_Kas wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.

Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.

It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.

However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.

I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.

I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.

And what counter does stamina builds have? Shuffle + dodgeroll vs all single target attacks. Crazy healing with vigor and rally, on top of crazy damage. Atleast mag builds you can slow down with roots and snares, even with elusive mist, eventually they'll run out of magicka because there is no mana reg when using it.

Stamina builds this patch makes me want to vomit.

Area Effect abilities, proxy det.

Don't compound stamina self healing with those exploiting though. If you aren't a cheater and don't have major mending or use a broken set... the healing isn't quite as overwhelming as you see. Non cheats have to use vigor/rally and los to heal up.

Master_Kas · June 2016

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.

Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.

It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.

However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.

I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.

I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.

And what counter does stamina builds have? Shuffle + dodgeroll vs all single target attacks. Crazy healing with vigor and rally, on top of crazy damage. Atleast mag builds you can slow down with roots and snares, even with elusive mist, eventually they'll run out of magicka because there is no mana reg when using it.

Stamina builds this patch makes me want to vomit.

Area Effect abilities, proxy det.

Don't compound stamina self healing with those exploiting though. If you aren't a cheater and don't have major mending or use a broken set... the healing isn't quite as overwhelming as you see. Non cheats have to use vigor/rally and los to heal up.

Yeah because proxy det will hit a shufflemonkey spamming bombard , rolling around a tree for 6k damage crit? Then 8 seconds until it blows up again. Very good counter

Don't get me wrong, I mained a stamina NB since 1.6 until recently, because it's just boring. And no, all you need is vitality pots on nightblade or templar/dk's major mending, vigor, rally and shuffle and you can heal better than everything except a magicka templar. On top of already having the best kiting, evasion with shuffle/dodgeroll, and the crazy damage that stam builds pull out these days.

Remember people whining over sorcerers not having to make a choice between offense and defense with their shields, stacking everything into magicka? Same goes for stambuilds with weapdmg/max stam. There needs to be a tradeoff, but I wont hold my breath.

Satiar · June 2016

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.

Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.

It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.

However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.

I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.

I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.

Retreating spam doesn't do anything to bombard spam because the effect is removed with practically every skill you use. It doesn't help that bombard is ALSO applying poisons and the magic counter to this (purge) is broken as ffffff.

It's not just a counter to magica, it's a hard counter. With purge broken it's just about the most frustrating play I've ever engaged in lol. I mean yeah, we adjusted after a few horrible days of it, but it remains a form of gameplay that makes me want to break my keyboard. Watching 40 people spread out around me twanging endless bombards as they backpedal.... It brings tears to this Nord Princess' eyes.

It works if you are bombing and not using abilities is the point.

Lastly I don't think bombard applies poisons. Poison yes, but from my totally informal testing poison is only applied to one target. Love to see someone know more.

And my point is that if you have 15-20 people your ability to fight a Zerg 2-4 times your size was dependent on mobility and focused damage. It's an effective counter to pretty much the only Zerg counter that was left in the game. Open field vs a Zerg is quite literally impossible at this point because you have stunted mobility and stunted damage. Even chokes are not the counter they used to be because of how insane negates are.

rfennell_ESO · June 2016

Zheg wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I wont be in bombard form. FENGRUSH is slaying targets.

We just need to remove AOE caps to move forward in a reasonable solution on these things. Brace for it.

Inc alt named LORD FENGOLAS, the elf archer who will root the armies of mordor. He gives free ERP sessions during off hours to make up for the bombard spam guilt.

I do wonder why the hate for bombard spammers doesn't apply to other spammers. Like spamming steel tornado or spamming Reverse slice.

/snicker.

There is no shame in bombard spamming when it's effective. I get the anger over being locked down... but the fact is that the good organized groups are only slightly disrupted by it, it's only the not so good or organized that it's such a hard counter to.

Satiar · June 2016

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I wont be in bombard form. FENGRUSH is slaying targets.

We just need to remove AOE caps to move forward in a reasonable solution on these things. Brace for it.

Inc alt named LORD FENGOLAS, the elf archer who will root the armies of mordor. He gives free ERP sessions during off hours to make up for the bombard spam guilt.

I do wonder why the hate for bombard spammers doesn't apply to other spammers. Like spamming steel tornado or spamming Reverse slice.

/snicker.

There is no shame in bombard spamming when it's effective. I get the anger over being locked down... but the fact is that the good organized groups are only slightly disrupted by it, it's only the not so good or organized that it's such a hard counter to.

People hate bombard because it's broken and makes the game extremely frustrating. I would love to have even one fight a night where I'm not CONSTANTLY rooted. And I do mean constantly, because there is no cool down on it. ZoS broke or Nerfed the direct counters as well, so yeah. It's cheap, extremely effective and more annoying than pretty much any other spam in ESO history. Permaroot is just bad game design. Period.

Zheg · June 2016

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.

Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.

It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.

However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.

I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.

I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.

Retreating spam doesn't do anything to bombard spam because the effect is removed with practically every skill you use. It doesn't help that bombard is ALSO applying poisons and the magic counter to this (purge) is broken as ffffff.

It's not just a counter to magica, it's a hard counter. With purge broken it's just about the most frustrating play I've ever engaged in lol. I mean yeah, we adjusted after a few horrible days of it, but it remains a form of gameplay that makes me want to break my keyboard. Watching 40 people spread out around me twanging endless bombards as they backpedal.... It brings tears to this Nord Princess' eyes.

One of the defining characteristics of a DK was the ability to aoe root. Bombard does it better, safer, and as steve mentioned - can apply poisons with ever cast. Why would you ever use talons or encase over bombard?

Why would you reward the bowtard way in the back more than the DK that needs to be in melee range and take risks? Why would you let the bowtard have the capacity to root such a large area compared to a DK that can only do it in 6m radius? It makes no sense, none. People can defend the root meta, theyre entitled to their opinions. No one can defend bombard being leagues above a DKs capacity to root.

The increased range in cryo probably shouldn't be applied to bombard. It is though... so the cone is far better than anything else.

Bombard spamming... eh. Bombard drains a lot of stamina. When I slot it I only use it situationally, and by that I mean when I see a whole group of clothies with proxy up... damn straight I'm gonna spam em with it. Nothing funnier than an entire bomb group standing in place with their proxy dets going off with no one near them.

The problem isn't just you doing it though, it encourages the zergs of 60+ to all do it. I think it was an ales fight where after dying my jaw dropped as I counted at least 14 bombard spammers (yes, one at a time, I actually counted them) off to the sides with people on siege and a ball group bombing. We probably had 16-18. That's the meta. That's what I tried to address as the problem. Should everybody just run that many and do the same thing? That sounds toxic, and it sounds like wrobel needs to take action on a problem he introduced over FIVE months ago.

Bombard drains no more stamina than other skills, I'm sorry, it's a non issue. It also does pretty good damage, so pretending like a group can charge in with retreating and not heal the good aoe damage being dumped on them is unrealistic. Retreating is useless except when out of combat now, I challenge any sane group to argue otherwise.

All weapon skill have a 20% chance to apply poisons. Couple this with the range AND the damage and of course bombard outclasses DK and sorcs. It's dumb, and we've played in the root meta long enough. Contrary to what you said, it's the antithesis of fun. On a yellow alt I did bombard spam for 3 days and saw firsthand how easy, safe, stupid, and effective it is. I took no pleasure in watching people from dying to something so toxic.

rfennell_ESO · June 2016

Master_Kas wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Master_Kas wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.

Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.

It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.

However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.

I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.

I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.

And what counter does stamina builds have? Shuffle + dodgeroll vs all single target attacks. Crazy healing with vigor and rally, on top of crazy damage. Atleast mag builds you can slow down with roots and snares, even with elusive mist, eventually they'll run out of magicka because there is no mana reg when using it.

Stamina builds this patch makes me want to vomit.

Area Effect abilities, proxy det.

Don't compound stamina self healing with those exploiting though. If you aren't a cheater and don't have major mending or use a broken set... the healing isn't quite as overwhelming as you see. Non cheats have to use vigor/rally and los to heal up.

Yeah because proxy det will hit a shufflemonkey spamming bombard , rolling around a tree for 6k damage crit? Then 8 seconds until it blows up again. Very good counter

Don't get me wrong, I mained a stamina NB since 1.6 until recently, because it's just boring. And no, all you need is vitality pots on nightblade or templar/dk's major mending, vigor, rally and shuffle and you can heal better than everything except a magicka templar. On top of already having the best kiting, evasion with shuffle/dodgeroll, and the crazy damage that stam builds pull out these days.

Remember people whining over sorcerers not having to make a choice between offense and defense with their shields, stacking everything into magicka? Same goes for stambuilds with weapdmg/max stam. There needs to be a tradeoff, but I wont hold my breath.

I don't know how some of these people are in the position of not having to make a tradeoff. I have my suspicions... I can tell you that I have to decide on stamina, weapon damage, stamina regen and health. I know there are some that don't... But I don't think most of them are on the up and up with CE and whatnot out there.

umagon · June 2016

There are two sets that can help counter a lot of aoe damage; bastion of the heartland and leki's focus. Using one or both can reduce the amount of damage a group can take and allow more time for singling out targets in an opposing group. While roots in general need diminishing returns and immunies; countering bombard is done by modifying group tactics. It's only effective against groups whom ball up and rely on close range aoe to defeat other groups. If you want to counter it spread out and change to ranged tactics. People trying to use it would be dead before they can do so. Bastion and/or Leki's helps to counter the opposition who make it to close range and try to aoe bomb. Unfortunately there isn't a light armor variant; well one that I know of. And yes both sets stack along with the duel wield blade cloak.

Satiar · June 2016

umagon wrote: »

There are two sets that can help counter a lot of aoe damage; bastion of the heartland and leki's focus. Using one or both can reduce the amount of damage a group can take and allow more time for singling out targets in an opposing group. While roots in general need diminishing returns and immunies; countering bombard is done by modifying group tactics. It's only effective against groups whom ball up and rely on close range aoe to defeat other groups. If you want to counter it spread out and change to ranged tactics. People trying to use it would be dead before they can do so. Bastion and/or Leki's helps to counter the opposition who make it to close range and try to aoe bomb. Unfortunately there isn't a light armor variant; well one that I know of. And yes both sets stack along with the duel wield blade cloak.

Again, there are plenty of adjustments groups can make but single target always favors the bigger group because of the basic mechanics around single target and aoe. A larger group relying on AoE (like bombard) isn't going to lose vs a single target train. It's about effective Zerg counters, which Wrobel has been systemically removing since 1.1 culminating in this toxic sludge.

Zheg · June 2016

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

I wont be in bombard form. FENGRUSH is slaying targets.

We just need to remove AOE caps to move forward in a reasonable solution on these things. Brace for it.

Inc alt named LORD FENGOLAS, the elf archer who will root the armies of mordor. He gives free ERP sessions during off hours to make up for the bombard spam guilt.

I do wonder why the hate for bombard spammers doesn't apply to other spammers. Like spamming steel tornado or spamming Reverse slice.

/snicker.

There is no shame in bombard spamming when it's effective. I get the anger over being locked down... but the fact is that the good organized groups are only slightly disrupted by it, it's only the not so good or organized that it's such a hard counter to.

Every group is greatly affected by it, anyone saying otherwise is lying, or fighting absolutely terrible players all night long on an off campaign. Ive watched it happen to every group on TF, even the ones that run multiple raids. It's not just groups griping about the terrible meta, there have been dozens of threads and posts since TG complaining about the root meta, including from solo and small groupers. When to can to deal with that, plus 1-2 raids in an organized group, it's toxic and pretending like it's an L2P issue is absurd.

Every 'spam' meta has been complained about so I'm not sure what you're talking about. Impulse, tornado, bombard, etc. Bombard is the first to make you want to break something though because of how frustrating it is to never be able to move. Let's also not forget these issues are compounded by the ever present lag, particularly when you get the Zerg doing it and causing the lag.

PosternHouse · June 2016

The bombards don't kill you. They just make it so you, or 2/3 of your group, can't move so they eventually get swarmed by 4 stacked raids of highly irritated lemmings.

Rohamad_Ali · June 2016

Does DK flappy flap wings reflect bombard ?

PosternHouse · June 2016

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Does DK flappy flap wings reflect bombard ?

It doesn't.

Rohamad_Ali · June 2016

PosternHouse wrote: »

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Does DK flappy flap wings reflect bombard ?

It doesn't.

Crap . Well I'm all out ideas ..

Satiar · June 2016

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

PosternHouse wrote: »

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Does DK flappy flap wings reflect bombard ?

It doesn't.

Crap . Well I'm all out ideas ..

Fix retreating/purge. Done and done.

Rohamad_Ali · June 2016

Satiar wrote: »

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

PosternHouse wrote: »

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Does DK flappy flap wings reflect bombard ?

It doesn't.

Crap . Well I'm all out ideas ..

Fix retreating/purge. Done and done.

Purge is bugged to only effect the same 6 people over and over and retreating maneuvers cancels the second some pug with a resto staff gets near . Does forward momentum actually work against bombard ?

Satiar · June 2016

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

PosternHouse wrote: »

Roehamad_Ali wrote: »

Does DK flappy flap wings reflect bombard ?

It doesn't.

Crap . Well I'm all out ideas ..

Fix retreating/purge. Done and done.

Purge is bugged to only effect the same 6 people over and over and retreating maneuvers cancels the second some pug with a resto staff gets near . Does forward momentum actually work against bombard ?

No because they nerfed base run speed.

rfennell_ESO · June 2016

Zheg wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.

Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.

It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.

However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.

I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.

I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.

Retreating spam doesn't do anything to bombard spam because the effect is removed with practically every skill you use. It doesn't help that bombard is ALSO applying poisons and the magic counter to this (purge) is broken as ffffff.

It's not just a counter to magica, it's a hard counter. With purge broken it's just about the most frustrating play I've ever engaged in lol. I mean yeah, we adjusted after a few horrible days of it, but it remains a form of gameplay that makes me want to break my keyboard. Watching 40 people spread out around me twanging endless bombards as they backpedal.... It brings tears to this Nord Princess' eyes.

One of the defining characteristics of a DK was the ability to aoe root. Bombard does it better, safer, and as steve mentioned - can apply poisons with ever cast. Why would you ever use talons or encase over bombard?

Why would you reward the bowtard way in the back more than the DK that needs to be in melee range and take risks? Why would you let the bowtard have the capacity to root such a large area compared to a DK that can only do it in 6m radius? It makes no sense, none. People can defend the root meta, theyre entitled to their opinions. No one can defend bombard being leagues above a DKs capacity to root.

The increased range in cryo probably shouldn't be applied to bombard. It is though... so the cone is far better than anything else.

Bombard spamming... eh. Bombard drains a lot of stamina. When I slot it I only use it situationally, and by that I mean when I see a whole group of clothies with proxy up... damn straight I'm gonna spam em with it. Nothing funnier than an entire bomb group standing in place with their proxy dets going off with no one near them.

The problem isn't just you doing it though, it encourages the zergs of 60+ to all do it. I think it was an ales fight where after dying my jaw dropped as I counted at least 14 bombard spammers (yes, one at a time, I actually counted them) off to the sides with people on siege and a ball group bombing. We probably had 16-18. That's the meta. That's what I tried to address as the problem. Should everybody just run that many and do the same thing? That sounds toxic, and it sounds like wrobel needs to take action on a problem he introduced over FIVE months ago.

Bombard drains no more stamina than other skills, I'm sorry, it's a non issue. It also does pretty good damage, so pretending like a group can charge in with retreating and not heal the good aoe damage being dumped on them is unrealistic. Retreating is useless except when out of combat now, I challenge any sane group to argue otherwise.

All weapon skill have a 20% chance to apply poisons. Couple this with the range AND the damage and of course bombard outclasses DK and sorcs. It's dumb, and we've played in the root meta long enough. Contrary to what you said, it's the antithesis of fun. On a yellow alt I did bombard spam for 3 days and saw firsthand how easy, safe, stupid, and effective it is. I took no pleasure in watching people from dying to something so toxic.

I don't have an issue with roots being changed, it's more an issue of how do you change it without making it totally trivial for stamina specs?

Because with all the bombard spamming right now, it's not really an issue for stamina specs that run shuffle and can roll dodge without issues.

The other thing is it's the only aoe that isn't a bad ground targeted ability or lackluster aoe for stamina builds.

Satiar · June 2016

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

Satiar wrote: »

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The rooting issue is mostly a magicka user issue.

Most stamina builds don't particularly have a problem with it, and being most run shuffle as well... they really shouldn't.

It's a weakness of magicka builds, I tend to think it's intended.

However the nature of soft cc and it not being "breakable" and not having immunity would get old pretty quick if I wasn't a stamina build. The problem with changing it is you will make it 100% a non issue for stamina builds and still tedious (but less) for magicka builds if you put root/snare immunity in.

I know I've gotten the hate whispers for locking down groups with bombard. Most of the time it's because they aren't very good and were trying to bomb and got caught with no retreating spammer and versus someone that knows that their bomb builds have little to no stamina and next to no stamina regen. Versus good groups with good players it's merely a nuisance for them and not them standing there getting pounded and unable to move.

I don't think the min max magicka to the hilt builds really deserve an immunity. That's their choice... to go all in. Currently snares and roots are the counter to that.

Retreating spam doesn't do anything to bombard spam because the effect is removed with practically every skill you use. It doesn't help that bombard is ALSO applying poisons and the magic counter to this (purge) is broken as ffffff.

It's not just a counter to magica, it's a hard counter. With purge broken it's just about the most frustrating play I've ever engaged in lol. I mean yeah, we adjusted after a few horrible days of it, but it remains a form of gameplay that makes me want to break my keyboard. Watching 40 people spread out around me twanging endless bombards as they backpedal.... It brings tears to this Nord Princess' eyes.

One of the defining characteristics of a DK was the ability to aoe root. Bombard does it better, safer, and as steve mentioned - can apply poisons with ever cast. Why would you ever use talons or encase over bombard?

Why would you reward the bowtard way in the back more than the DK that needs to be in melee range and take risks? Why would you let the bowtard have the capacity to root such a large area compared to a DK that can only do it in 6m radius? It makes no sense, none. People can defend the root meta, theyre entitled to their opinions. No one can defend bombard being leagues above a DKs capacity to root.

The increased range in cryo probably shouldn't be applied to bombard. It is though... so the cone is far better than anything else.

Bombard spamming... eh. Bombard drains a lot of stamina. When I slot it I only use it situationally, and by that I mean when I see a whole group of clothies with proxy up... damn straight I'm gonna spam em with it. Nothing funnier than an entire bomb group standing in place with their proxy dets going off with no one near them.

The problem isn't just you doing it though, it encourages the zergs of 60+ to all do it. I think it was an ales fight where after dying my jaw dropped as I counted at least 14 bombard spammers (yes, one at a time, I actually counted them) off to the sides with people on siege and a ball group bombing. We probably had 16-18. That's the meta. That's what I tried to address as the problem. Should everybody just run that many and do the same thing? That sounds toxic, and it sounds like wrobel needs to take action on a problem he introduced over FIVE months ago.

Bombard drains no more stamina than other skills, I'm sorry, it's a non issue. It also does pretty good damage, so pretending like a group can charge in with retreating and not heal the good aoe damage being dumped on them is unrealistic. Retreating is useless except when out of combat now, I challenge any sane group to argue otherwise.

All weapon skill have a 20% chance to apply poisons. Couple this with the range AND the damage and of course bombard outclasses DK and sorcs. It's dumb, and we've played in the root meta long enough. Contrary to what you said, it's the antithesis of fun. On a yellow alt I did bombard spam for 3 days and saw firsthand how easy, safe, stupid, and effective it is. I took no pleasure in watching people from dying to something so toxic.

I don't have an issue with roots being changed, it's more an issue of how do you change it without making it totally trivial for stamina specs?

Because with all the bombard spamming right now, it's not really an issue for stamina specs that run shuffle and can roll dodge without issues.

The other thing is it's the only aoe that isn't a bad ground targeted ability or lackluster aoe for stamina builds.

Root spam, or CC spam of any kind, is bad for gameplay. Run speed already got Nerfed, you walk layered in caltrops, the main method of getting movement back was removed (retreating maneuvers), and it's root spam on top of it.

I'm going to say it again for clarity: CC lock is poor game design. No PvP meta should EVER (ever) revolve around spammable CC. It's a frustrating mode of play that is completely unnecessary.

As a final note, if your solution is "roll Stam" then there is a large problem. Just as there was with Impulse and Steel tornado metas, but at least with those you had control of your freaking character.