Magicka DPS problems

Love Wizard · June 2016

Hello.

I thought I'd make a discussion thread about magicka DPS classes, as in the last patch we've took a massive hit, or in other words stamina outscales us ALOT. Now, there's quite a few issues about Magicka that makes it less viable, one of them being the resource management. Playing without molag kena makes you not really competitive as it's a BIG dps loss using anything else. Something has been *** up when it comes to Magicka for a LONG time, there is times in PvP (I don't have any phootage) where I will block for a moment and I will LOSE magicka whilst im not casting any skills or doing anything that can possibly cost me Magicka, keep in mind this was happening before the poison patch too. Not only this, but synergies are still EXTREMELY poor yet we've provided ZoS with feedback over the course of six months yet we see NO improvement. This obviously causes us to not always be able to use magicka orbs, which is one of our most vital parts to keeping magicka up whilst AoE'ing, and even whilst you're fighting bosses with alot of AoE!

I've heard rumours about the alchemy thing that got hotfixed, I don't think it's related to that, and then you have this Deltia's guy saying piercing armor overwrites elemental drain yet it doesn't. I don't know what is causing it ZoS, but you should have testers to be able to identify the issue and RESOLVE it. Not only is our resources buttfucked, but it feels like magicka overall even with flawless resources, is not able to outdps stamina dps on any bosses. The fighters guild passive change were obviously key and somewhat playing a role, however the stamina buffs also were extremely powerful. To make an example, our good stamina dps players in Hodor, is capable of doing 40k on Serpent and Mantikora, with slight ease (No discredit, you still rock @YoloWizard and @DrugControl) However, even on a FLAWLESS mantikora kill I can't even get above 35k on my Nightblade, and most of the time you won't have flawless runs, so I'll be at roughly 31-33k.

I don't know how to really explain it, you could just argue it's an L2P issue but I consider myself a pretty decent nightblade at the end of the day, and I have plenty of experience but yeah. I just wish we could have all classes be COMPETITIVE with eachother, because as of right now it feels like one thing is op this month, the other thing is op this month, and ofcourse you will have flavors of the month, but it's such a big difference in terms of DPS, and I feel the majority of the game gets balanced around PvP, and vice versa on it's occations.

I'd love to see some other magicka dps players inputs on this very topic, as I feel something is not as it should be.

Give us some love Zenimax!

- @IWM

f047ys3v3n · June 2016

Stam DPS is easily higher right now. To be fair, a Mag nb is also ranged and does some, though less now, passive heals.

You're looking to far into this. Mag got nerfed because of PVP and Vicious death. The nerf to magica and buff to stam has nothing to do with what is going on in elite PVE raiding guilds. It is a reaction to very poor players complaining in very large numbers about dying like lemmings to VD blasts in PVP. ZOS is simply addressing a problem by breaking some other loosely related things. Mag NB, being the toon most used to bomb groups with VD was hit the hardest basically having it's AOE dps gutted with the changes to Sap and Proxy det.

The solution is obvious. Make a stam VD set and then they will get nerfed next for the same reason. Please, please make a stam VD set.

Gilliamtherogue · June 2016

Your argument about Magicka sustain is extremely shoddy. Stamina is at a clear disadvantage in terms of resource management, as they have very few ways to return Stamina back compared to Caster specs. I will not include resource management sources that affect both Stamina and Magicka, such as Undaunted Command. Casters have the benefit of;

Elemental Drain- Rewards resources while you actively DPS, you are not required to interact with the ability other than to continue to damage the target afflicted with it. 1s ICD. Anyone with a Destro staff may apply, any target hitting with Ele damage can benefit.

Siphon Spirit- The same as Elemental Drain but does not require Elemental damage to proc, any damage triggers it. 1s ICD. Anyone with Resto staff may apply, any target hitting with damage can benefit.

Mystic Orbs- An extremely powerful Synergy that deals a large burst of AoE damage, instant Magicka on hit, and Magicka return over time based on the amount of enemies hit. Activating the synergy is a DPS gain rather than a loss due to its high damage. 20s ICD, but any ally activating this will give resources to all nearby friendly targets, effectively removing the ICD of Magicka return. No requirements needed.

Arcane Well- Killing an enemy has a change to give a moderate amount of Magicka back on kill, although smaller in range. Good on trash but sees little use on boss fights. No ICD. 120 points into Apprentice required.

Destruction Expert- Gives a sizable return of Magicka when killing an enemy with a Destruction staff ability or light/heavy attack. Noticeable on trash when using Wall of Elements/etc. Requires enemies to kill so also sees little use on boss fights. No ICD. Requires use of Destro staff.

Harness Magicka- a damage shield that rewards standing in damage by giving resources, arguably one of the most fundamentally toxic game play statements a combat team could give players. Granted it only returns Magicka based on taking spell damage, but now absorbs any damage. Each hit returns Magicka, rather than based on amount of damage taken.
No requirements needed, but gets stronger with more Light armor equipped.

Also as a Magblade you have access to Siphoning Attacks, which will have a 40% chance to proc each second granted you are doing what a PvE Magblade should be doing; Weaving with Force Pulse. 1s ICD. Only applicable to Magblade.

Now onto Stamina which has;

Blazing Spears/Luminous Shards- Returns 25% of max Stamina on activation and ~2k over 10 seconds. Lumi provides ~2500 Stamina AND Magicka over 10 seconds, on top of the 25% max Stamina. 20s ICD. Can only be casted from a Templar.

Repentance- Returns a flood of Health and Stamina based on nearby corpses. Requires dead enemies or allies, drastically lowering availability in boss fights. Also has a target cap of 6 players that can receive the heal/Stamina. Can only be casted from a Templar and requires dead bodies.

Also Stamblades do not benefit from Siphoning Attacks anymore, since the only thing in our kit that can now proc it are Light Attacks and the initial hit of Poison Injection, since Surprise Attack is outclassed by Rapid Strikes even without Maelstrom weapons.

We can clearly see the disparity between resource management in a PvE situation of Stamina vs Magicka specs, heavily favoring Magicka. Magicka also has much more accessible healing, and the addition of Damage shields, which Stamina has none of. This leads to something called 'Risk Reward'. Stamina builds are more taxing on resources, lacks more accessible healing, and has next to no defensive capabilities (no damage shields, in ability to dodge roll most trial mechanics, etc), but do an incredible amount of damage if played properly. Not to mention our resource pool to DPS must also be used to block and dodge roll, while Magicka does not suffer from this.
Many caster builds have ranged routes that only see small dips in overall DPS performance, while Stamina's ranged route is a massive DPS loss, giving Magicka much more safety in that regard as well.

Alcast · June 2016

@Gilliamtherogue

Stamina literally has 2x better sustain than magicka atm. My Stam DK is happy. My Magplar not so much.
you do realize the increase in cost of spells kinda kicked Magicka in the ***

My Magplar build is really resource friendly, yet the magicka just disappears this patch in like 40s whereas I could sustain for over 6min in the last patch.

Stamblades do not benefit froM Siphoning wait what? Siphoning attacks is literally OP. On my Kahjiit NB i pop it once and my Stamina goes from 10% to like 70% during the duration its active.

Tho I think this has mostly to do with cheap skills, rapid strikes 1,2k stam. Rending Slashes 700 stam. The only rly expensive thing is rearming trap.

Gilliamtherogue · June 2016

Alcast wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue

Stamina literally has 2x better sustain than magicka atm. My Stam DK is happy. My Magplar not so much.
you do realize the increase in cost of spells kinda killed magicka.

My Magplar build is really resource friendly, yet the magicka just disappears this patch in like 40s whereas I could sustain for over 6min in the last patch.

The ability cost increase affected Magicka and Stamina alike, both of them saw a massive increase in resource management issue. On the other hand, Heavy attacks restore much more resources now, and can be implemented in Caster and Stamina builds at a DPS gain if done properly. Using personal testimony without mathematical evidence provides no insight to the discussion.

Keep in mind that much of the issue in Magicka resource management stems from Elemental Drain losing the Magicka on hit return if someone else applies Puncture or Mark Target. Have your tanks swap to Ransack or the Undaunted synergy to bypass this issue in the meantime.

Instant · June 2016

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Your argument about Magicka sustain is extremely shoddy. Stamina is at a clear disadvantage in terms of resource management, as they have very few ways to return Stamina back compared to Caster specs. I will not include resource management sources that affect both Stamina and Magicka, such as Undaunted Command. Casters have the benefit of;

Elemental Drain- Rewards resources while you actively DPS, you are not required to interact with the ability other than to continue to damage the target afflicted with it. 1s ICD. Anyone with a Destro staff may apply, any target hitting with Ele damage can benefit.

Siphon Spirit- The same as Elemental Drain but does not require Elemental damage to proc, any damage triggers it. 1s ICD. Anyone with Resto staff may apply, any target hitting with damage can benefit.

Mystic Orbs- An extremely powerful Synergy that deals a large burst of AoE damage, instant Magicka on hit, and Magicka return over time based on the amount of enemies hit. Activating the synergy is a DPS gain rather than a loss due to its high damage. 20s ICD, but any ally activating this will give resources to all nearby friendly targets, effectively removing the ICD of Magicka return. No requirements needed.

Arcane Well- Killing an enemy has a change to give a moderate amount of Magicka back on kill, although smaller in range. Good on trash but sees little use on boss fights. No ICD. 120 points into Apprentice required.

Destruction Expert- Gives a sizable return of Magicka when killing an enemy with a Destruction staff ability or light/heavy attack. Noticeable on trash when using Wall of Elements/etc. Requires enemies to kill so also sees little use on boss fights. No ICD. Requires use of Destro staff.

Harness Magicka- a damage shield that rewards standing in damage by giving resources, arguably one of the most fundamentally toxic game play statements a combat team could give players. Granted it only returns Magicka based on taking spell damage, but now absorbs any damage. Each hit returns Magicka, rather than based on amount of damage taken.
No requirements needed, but gets stronger with more Light armor equipped.

Also as a Magblade you have access to Siphoning Attacks, which will have a 40% chance to proc each second granted you are doing what a PvE Magblade should be doing; Weaving with Force Pulse. 1s ICD. Only applicable to Magblade.

Now onto Stamina which has;

Blazing Spears/Luminous Shards- Returns 25% of max Stamina on activation and ~2k over 10 seconds. Lumi provides ~2500 Stamina AND Magicka over 10 seconds, on top of the 25% max Stamina. 20s ICD. Can only be casted from a Templar.

Repentance- Returns a flood of Health and Stamina based on nearby corpses. Requires dead enemies or allies, drastically lowering availability in boss fights. Also has a target cap of 6 players that can receive the heal/Stamina. Can only be casted from a Templar and requires dead bodies.

Also Stamblades do not benefit from Siphoning Attacks anymore, since the only thing in our kit that can now proc it are Light Attacks and the initial hit of Poison Injection, since Surprise Attack is outclassed by Rapid Strikes even without Maelstrom weapons.

We can clearly see the disparity between resource management in a PvE situation of Stamina vs Magicka specs, heavily favoring Magicka. Magicka also has much more accessible healing, and the addition of Damage shields, which Stamina has none of. This leads to something called 'Risk Reward'. Stamina builds are more taxing on resources, lacks more accessible healing, and has next to no defensive capabilities (no damage shields, in ability to dodge roll most trial mechanics, etc), but do an incredible amount of damage if played properly. Not to mention our resource pool to DPS must also be used to block and dodge roll, while Magicka does not suffer from this.
Many caster builds have ranged routes that only see small dips in overall DPS performance, while Stamina's ranged route is a massive DPS loss, giving Magicka much more safety in that regard as well.

Just looking at the skills that return resources is useless. You need to take into account spell cost as well as recovery.

lolo_01b16_ESO · June 2016

In my opinion it's fine that not everyone can achive the same dps. You can't measure all advantages of certain builds by a single number. Fighting in melee range can be a much higher risk than staying at range, so builds that can go ranged should naturally do less dps. So far I haven't seen a single ranged stam build who got close to the numbers our magicka nbs are pulling.
Additionally magicka builds usually offer better survivability / utillity. Magicka dks can use chains a lot and have an aoe interrupt, magicka templars heal themselves and provide stamina to their group, magicka nbs heal everyone around them. Furthermore magicka builds have better access to shields.
And I don't know about you, but from what I see the problem with MoL hm is not that the boss enrages because of low dps, it's people dying mid fight. And If you would manage to do vSO with noticable less deaths you should easiely get a higher score than groups who waste all their souls to get a bit more dps.

Gilliamtherogue · June 2016

Magicka High Elf Nightblade;
AoE cost-2335(sap)
Spammable Cost-1946(pulse, after 3 casts it becomes 3 seconds and 5838 cost)
Main DOT Cost-2335(blockade), 2335(cripple),2530(path) 7200 total
916 Magicka Regen unbuffed

Stamina Khajiit Nightblade;
AoE cost-2084 (nado)
Spammable Cost-1488 (flurry, .6s channel, cheaper since it is not instant damage, casted 5 times it becomes 3 seconds @ 7440)
Main DOT Cost- 2084(trap), 745(rend), 1339(inject), 1936(barrage), and 5837(caltrops) 11941 total.
897 Stamina Regen unbuffed

Each race has a bonus 10% regeneration, as well as identical class passives in terms of regeneration/cost reduction. Running 5/1/1 on each setup, with both 92 into Cost Reduction and 75 into Regeneration CP wise for the respective stats. Each running pure damage jewelry enchants and have no Regeneration/Cost reduction gear set bonuses.

If we divide each DoT into cost per cast / duration we get the following;
Magicka's DoTs; 291.875(blockade), 291.875(cripple), 220(path) 803.75 total

Stamina's DoTs; 173.667(trap), 82.778(rend), 133.9(inject), 242(barrage), 194.567(caltrops) 826.912 total.

After applying this all we can see the following;
Magicka's AoE costs is 251 more expensive per cast than Stamina

Stamina's spammable cost when put into a like denominator (3s, you can cast FP every 1s without animation canceling, and Rapid Strikes every .6s, put into common denom it becomes 3s intervals, which 3 FP casts and 5 Rapid casts) is 534 more expensive than Magicka

Stamina's DoT is 23.162 more expensive than Caster's, although they run 2 additional DoT effects than casters.

Alcast · June 2016

@Gilliamtherogue

Its all good that you can do math but in game stamina>magicka for sustain by miles. Or do you have sustain issues on Stamblade? The only class I had issues sustaining was on Stamplar due to Jabs being really expensive.

Gilliamtherogue · June 2016

I've simulated a combat situation. The perimeters are 60s long each of uninterrupted combat, casting spells as fast as internally possible (assumed perfect math, this is only achievable from machines), and only looks at regeneration and cost reductions (NO outside sources of resource return).
1 minute fight

5 casts of trap (10420)

7 casts of barrage (13552)

6 casts of rend (4470)

2 casts of caltrops (11674)

6 casts of injection (8034)

34 casts of Rapid (50592)

98742 stamina spent over 60s
26910 returned from regen alone
71832 stamina deficit every 60s assuming only regeneration

VS

7 casts of blockade (16345)

7 casts of cripple (16345)

5 casts of path (12650)

41 casts of pulse (79786)

125126 magicka spent over 60s
27480 returned from regen alone
97646 magicka deficit every 60s assuming only regeneration

We can see that Magicka is indeed at a much higher deficit than Stamina in a SOLO situation with NO outside resource management looked at.

Add in Ele Drain(435 per hit, 1s ICD) and Siphon Spirit(1% magicka, average caster build runs 42k, so 420 Magicka) is 835 Magicka each second, or 1670 pseudo regeneration. In our combat simulation we can see that it would return 50100 Magicka, changing the Magicka Deficit to 47546 every 60s. (requires no change in performance, no kills/bodies)

Add in Shards(25% stam+2000, 20s ICD, average stam build runs 34k, so 8500, 10500 total) is 525 Stamina each second or 1050 psuedo regeneration. In our combat simulation we can see that would return 31500 Stamina, changing the Stamina Deficit to 40332 every 60s (must synergize, causing DPS loss, requires no bodies/kills)

Just from that we can see the bridge from Stamina and Magicka is not as large as it would be made seem, and that's only running 2 debuffs that incur no operational losses on the benificators, while Shards incurs a small DPS loss to Stamina. This is also ignoring Mystic Orbs, which adds an extremely large amount of Magicka on return as well, with no operational losses since it deals damage while activating.

@Alcast , as I said before, personal testimonies have no value here. I cannot make you or your group play better, only tell you that there are tools in game that make your experience the opposite of what you are seeing. If done properly, Caster builds have a clear advantage in more ways than one with resource management.

Instant · June 2016

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Magicka High Elf Nightblade;
AoE cost-2335(sap)
Spammable Cost-1946(pulse, after 3 casts it becomes 3 seconds and 5838 cost)
Main DOT Cost-2335(blockade), 2335(cripple),2530(path) 7200 total
916 Magicka Regen unbuffed

Stamina Khajiit Nightblade;
AoE cost-2084 (nado)
Spammable Cost-1488 (flurry, .6s channel, cheaper since it is not instant damage, casted 5 times it becomes 3 seconds @ 7440)
Main DOT Cost- 2084(trap), 745(rend), 1339(inject), 1936(barrage), and 5837(caltrops) 11941 total.
897 Stamina Regen unbuffed

Each race has a bonus 10% regeneration, as well as identical class passives in terms of regeneration/cost reduction. Running 5/1/1 on each setup, with both 92 into Cost Reduction and 75 into Regeneration CP wise for the respective stats. Each running pure damage jewelry enchants and have no Regeneration/Cost reduction gear set bonuses.

If we divide each DoT into cost per cast / duration we get the following;
Magicka's DoTs; 291.875(blockade), 291.875(cripple), 220(path) 803.75 total

Stamina's DoTs; 173.667(trap), 82.778(rend), 133.9(inject), 242(barrage), 194.567(caltrops) 826.912 total.

After applying this all we can see the following;
Magicka's AoE costs is 251 more expensive per cast than Stamina

Stamina's spammable cost when put into a like denominator (3s, you can cast FP every 1s without animation canceling, and Rapid Strikes every .6s, put into common denom it becomes 3s intervals, which 3 FP casts and 5 Rapid casts) is 534 more expensive than Magicka

Stamina's DoT is 23.162 more expensive than Caster's, although they run 2 additional DoT effects than casters.

Flurry is a channel, but it still triggers the 1000ms GCD so you can only do 3 casts in 3 seconds.

I dont get why you use 5/1/1 on Stam when 7Medium does more dps + gives more sustain. Also im sure 100Cp into cost reduction and 67 into recovery is better than your 92/75 split. My Flurry cost 11xx, idk the exact value.

I dont understand that "although" in the last line. More dots -> higher costs?

Alcast · June 2016

@Gilliamtherogue dude you are killing me xD. Stam>Magicka resource management by miles. but w/e.
I played all 4 stam classes in PvE this patch and it is *** easy to sustain compared to magicka

susmitds · June 2016

Instant wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Magicka High Elf Nightblade;
AoE cost-2335(sap)
Spammable Cost-1946(pulse, after 3 casts it becomes 3 seconds and 5838 cost)
Main DOT Cost-2335(blockade), 2335(cripple),2530(path) 7200 total
916 Magicka Regen unbuffed

Stamina Khajiit Nightblade;
AoE cost-2084 (nado)
Spammable Cost-1488 (flurry, .6s channel, cheaper since it is not instant damage, casted 5 times it becomes 3 seconds @ 7440)
Main DOT Cost- 2084(trap), 745(rend), 1339(inject), 1936(barrage), and 5837(caltrops) 11941 total.
897 Stamina Regen unbuffed

Each race has a bonus 10% regeneration, as well as identical class passives in terms of regeneration/cost reduction. Running 5/1/1 on each setup, with both 92 into Cost Reduction and 75 into Regeneration CP wise for the respective stats. Each running pure damage jewelry enchants and have no Regeneration/Cost reduction gear set bonuses.

If we divide each DoT into cost per cast / duration we get the following;
Magicka's DoTs; 291.875(blockade), 291.875(cripple), 220(path) 803.75 total

Stamina's DoTs; 173.667(trap), 82.778(rend), 133.9(inject), 242(barrage), 194.567(caltrops) 826.912 total.

After applying this all we can see the following;
Magicka's AoE costs is 251 more expensive per cast than Stamina

Stamina's spammable cost when put into a like denominator (3s, you can cast FP every 1s without animation canceling, and Rapid Strikes every .6s, put into common denom it becomes 3s intervals, which 3 FP casts and 5 Rapid casts) is 534 more expensive than Magicka

Stamina's DoT is 23.162 more expensive than Caster's, although they run 2 additional DoT effects than casters.

Flurry is a channel, but it still triggers the 1000ms GCD so you can only do 3 casts in 3 seconds.

I dont get why you use 5/1/1 on Stam when 7Medium does more dps + gives more sustain. Also im sure 100Cp into cost reduction and 67 into recovery is better than your 92/75 split. My Flurry cost 11xx, idk the exact value.

I dont understand that "although" in the last line. More dots -> higher costs?

Flurry is one of the few abilities in the game that ignores the 1000ms GCD.

Asmael · June 2016

susmitds wrote: »

Instant wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Magicka High Elf Nightblade;
AoE cost-2335(sap)
Spammable Cost-1946(pulse, after 3 casts it becomes 3 seconds and 5838 cost)
Main DOT Cost-2335(blockade), 2335(cripple),2530(path) 7200 total
916 Magicka Regen unbuffed

Stamina Khajiit Nightblade;
AoE cost-2084 (nado)
Spammable Cost-1488 (flurry, .6s channel, cheaper since it is not instant damage, casted 5 times it becomes 3 seconds @ 7440)
Main DOT Cost- 2084(trap), 745(rend), 1339(inject), 1936(barrage), and 5837(caltrops) 11941 total.
897 Stamina Regen unbuffed

Each race has a bonus 10% regeneration, as well as identical class passives in terms of regeneration/cost reduction. Running 5/1/1 on each setup, with both 92 into Cost Reduction and 75 into Regeneration CP wise for the respective stats. Each running pure damage jewelry enchants and have no Regeneration/Cost reduction gear set bonuses.

If we divide each DoT into cost per cast / duration we get the following;
Magicka's DoTs; 291.875(blockade), 291.875(cripple), 220(path) 803.75 total

Stamina's DoTs; 173.667(trap), 82.778(rend), 133.9(inject), 242(barrage), 194.567(caltrops) 826.912 total.

After applying this all we can see the following;
Magicka's AoE costs is 251 more expensive per cast than Stamina

Stamina's spammable cost when put into a like denominator (3s, you can cast FP every 1s without animation canceling, and Rapid Strikes every .6s, put into common denom it becomes 3s intervals, which 3 FP casts and 5 Rapid casts) is 534 more expensive than Magicka

Stamina's DoT is 23.162 more expensive than Caster's, although they run 2 additional DoT effects than casters.

Flurry is a channel, but it still triggers the 1000ms GCD so you can only do 3 casts in 3 seconds.

I dont get why you use 5/1/1 on Stam when 7Medium does more dps + gives more sustain. Also im sure 100Cp into cost reduction and 67 into recovery is better than your 92/75 split. My Flurry cost 11xx, idk the exact value.

I dont understand that "although" in the last line. More dots -> higher costs?

Flurry is one of the few abilities in the game that ignores the 1000ms GCD.

This forum needs a huge logo "YOU CANNOT BREAK A GCD" in fire letters. Nope, Flurry doesn't ignore the GCD, it just has a slightly lower channel time than the GCD, so it ends earlier but cannot be recast.

And the GCD is closer to 0.85~ sec than 1s.

Love Wizard · June 2016

How you can say stamina is worse than magicka when it comes to resource management shows how clueless you are when it comes to this game, a pity.

Tacadrie · June 2016

Guys pls ... I play magDK since the beginning of this game. And I could always sustain my magicka with a decent grp : ele drain, orbs and syphon spirit.
And now with DB dlc my magDK is just useless 25-30% of combat time because I'm totally OOM ... So maybe in "theory" you can sustain easily magicka but in fact not, somethink seems broken since DB patch.
I will switch stam because stam guys in my grp have no issues with stamina sustain ...

Mush55 · June 2016

My temp healer is burning through magic after the dlc, before at worst I was always at least half full.

Gilliamtherogue · June 2016

Instant wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Magicka High Elf Nightblade;
AoE cost-2335(sap)
Spammable Cost-1946(pulse, after 3 casts it becomes 3 seconds and 5838 cost)
Main DOT Cost-2335(blockade), 2335(cripple),2530(path) 7200 total
916 Magicka Regen unbuffed

Stamina Khajiit Nightblade;
AoE cost-2084 (nado)
Spammable Cost-1488 (flurry, .6s channel, cheaper since it is not instant damage, casted 5 times it becomes 3 seconds @ 7440)
Main DOT Cost- 2084(trap), 745(rend), 1339(inject), 1936(barrage), and 5837(caltrops) 11941 total.
897 Stamina Regen unbuffed

Each race has a bonus 10% regeneration, as well as identical class passives in terms of regeneration/cost reduction. Running 5/1/1 on each setup, with both 92 into Cost Reduction and 75 into Regeneration CP wise for the respective stats. Each running pure damage jewelry enchants and have no Regeneration/Cost reduction gear set bonuses.

If we divide each DoT into cost per cast / duration we get the following;
Magicka's DoTs; 291.875(blockade), 291.875(cripple), 220(path) 803.75 total

Stamina's DoTs; 173.667(trap), 82.778(rend), 133.9(inject), 242(barrage), 194.567(caltrops) 826.912 total.

After applying this all we can see the following;
Magicka's AoE costs is 251 more expensive per cast than Stamina

Stamina's spammable cost when put into a like denominator (3s, you can cast FP every 1s without animation canceling, and Rapid Strikes every .6s, put into common denom it becomes 3s intervals, which 3 FP casts and 5 Rapid casts) is 534 more expensive than Magicka

Stamina's DoT is 23.162 more expensive than Caster's, although they run 2 additional DoT effects than casters.

Flurry is a channel, but it still triggers the 1000ms GCD so you can only do 3 casts in 3 seconds.

I dont get why you use 5/1/1 on Stam when 7Medium does more dps + gives more sustain. Also im sure 100Cp into cost reduction and 67 into recovery is better than your 92/75 split. My Flurry cost 11xx, idk the exact value.

I dont understand that "although" in the last line. More dots -> higher costs?

Because when testing you should keep as many things as possible the same except your variable, which was tools of resource management that I listed.

100 CP into cost reduction has 0 benefit over 98, it gives the listed cost reduction at that rather than 100.

If you looked at my break down of a rotation cost, you'd see the bulk of resource drain stems from your spammable, not DoTs.

There is no GCD that is procced from Flurry, if you sit there and cast it over and over you will see there is absolutely no delay in between activation. The "GCD" in this game refers to the ability to complete an entire priority system queue, which is; Light Attack + Ability + Block/Bash/Dodge. Bar swapping also bypasses the GCD of the priority system, allowing you to to instantly begin another priority system queue.

Love Wizard wrote: »

How you can say stamina is worse than magicka when it comes to resource management shows how clueless you are when it comes to this game, a pity.

Perhaps because I've played both extensively, and do not have biases unlike you clearly do? One of the core issues that Stamina has always had as been resource management due to the fact that there are fewer group tools to return Stamina vs Magicka, on top of the fact that Stamina is used to cast abilities on top of Dodging and Blocking.

f047ys3v3n · June 2016

We should also be mentioning here that while the dramatic and undocumented resource cost increases (they vary but are as high as 25% on some abilities) look to be designed to lower general damage output and force people to tilt some of their build towards resource management while at the same time they have significantly nerfed the most common option for greater resource management. Cost reduce Jewelry enchants used to be calculated after the percentage cost reductions so that for a 203 cost reduction enchant you actually got 203 reduction. Now they are calculated in the reverse order so that, in effect, the magnitude of each cost reduction glyph is decreased by the percent cost reduction you have from things like, Champ points, Armor weight cost reductions, racial passives, class passives, and other armor bonuses. Cost reduction glyphs on my magica NB for instance are only worth 154 not 203 and on my Templar healer it is much worse.

The result of this is that Ironically, on the 3 toons I play I used to have a total of 5 cost reduction glyphs in use with 3 on the healer and 2 on the templar dps. I now have only the 3 on the healer having switched the Templar dps from willpower to transmutation and from health mag food to health mag-regen food to compensate. Realistically it is only this way because, using V14 healing mage on the healer it is pretty much stuck with cost reduction glyphs because of how spell power ones scale.

The bottom line is I feel like ZOS said use more resource management and then nerfed it so much that I actually use less and just heavy attack occasionally. I expect that this was not purposeful and was because they recycled the old code where cost reduction flat values came off first without noticing they did so but I also expect it will take them years to fix this so weather they meant to send the mixed message or not the effect is the same. I would like them to fix the issue though as just switching to jewelry with different enchants was an easy way to modulate resource management for different situations such as solo or raid play.

newtinmpls · June 2016

f047ys3v3n wrote: »

You're looking to far into this. Mag got nerfed because of PVP and Vicious death. The nerf to magica and buff to stam has nothing to do with what is going on in elite PVE raiding guilds. It is a reaction to very poor players complaining in very large numbers about dying like lemmings to VD blasts in PVP.

I suspect that you are right in that the problems with the PvP/PvE gankfest that was IC resulted in a lot of folks playing wanting to do IC dailies (I do think there are some cool storylines there), etc and finding that a chunk O game that had been advertised as "sorta" PvE possible (I'm not saying friendly - and remember the telvar reward bags were to compensate for the deliberate gankfest and attempt to attract PvE'ers "anyway"). Anyway, "possible" was reduced to "not doable" by VD in it's original incarnation.

It's got to be very difficult fot ZoS to figure out what to do here. There are several fairly distinct types of players with rather distinct constellations of needs and wants to keep them playing.

BTW this is one thing that I find intriguing about Deltia's videos; he looks quite deeply into how the subtleties of the changes and the abilities and passives and CP can interact with each other.

Anhedonie · June 2016

Both resource managment and damage are not as good as before in magicka build.
In previous patches I was able to sustain stable rotation, thanks to crafted potions + ultimate casts. Right now Kena isn't even an option.

kadar · June 2016

Love Wizard wrote: »

Hello.

I thought I'd make a discussion thread about magicka DPS classes, as in the last patch we've took a massive hit, or in other words stamina outscales us ALOT. Now, there's quite a few issues about Magicka that makes it less viable, one of them being the resource management. Playing without molag kena makes you not really competitive as it's a BIG dps loss using anything else. Something has been *** up when it comes to Magicka for a LONG time, there is times in PvP (I don't have any phootage) where I will block for a moment and I will LOSE magicka whilst im not casting any skills or doing anything that can possibly cost me Magicka, keep in mind this was happening before the poison patch too. Not only this, but synergies are still EXTREMELY poor yet we've provided ZoS with feedback over the course of six months yet we see NO improvement. This obviously causes us to not always be able to use magicka orbs, which is one of our most vital parts to keeping magicka up whilst AoE'ing, and even whilst you're fighting bosses with alot of AoE!

I've heard rumours about the alchemy thing that got hotfixed, I don't think it's related to that, and then you have this Deltia's guy saying piercing armor overwrites elemental drain yet it doesn't. I don't know what is causing it ZoS, but you should have testers to be able to identify the issue and RESOLVE it. Not only is our resources buttfucked, but it feels like magicka overall even with flawless resources, is not able to outdps stamina dps on any bosses. The fighters guild passive change were obviously key and somewhat playing a role, however the stamina buffs also were extremely powerful. To make an example, our good stamina dps players in Hodor, is capable of doing 40k on Serpent and Mantikora, with slight ease (No discredit, you still rock @YoloWizard and @DrugControl) However, even on a FLAWLESS mantikora kill I can't even get above 35k on my Nightblade, and most of the time you won't have flawless runs, so I'll be at roughly 31-33k.

I don't know how to really explain it, you could just argue it's an L2P issue but I consider myself a pretty decent nightblade at the end of the day, and I have plenty of experience but yeah. I just wish we could have all classes be COMPETITIVE with eachother, because as of right now it feels like one thing is op this month, the other thing is op this month, and ofcourse you will have flavors of the month, but it's such a big difference in terms of DPS, and I feel the majority of the game gets balanced around PvP, and vice versa on it's occations.

I'd love to see some other magicka dps players inputs on this very topic, as I feel something is not as it should be.

Give us some love Zenimax!

- @IWM

So...Gilliam has written multiple comments containing facts and logic as to why he believes that Magicka has better resource management overall than Stamina, and all you and others have responded with is essentially, "I'm right because reasons." I'm legitimately curious about regen issues between builds. Do you have any actual points to this belief or is it all derogatory attitude and sarcasm?

Mojmir · June 2016

Still waiting for a magicka version of one pc bloodspawn

DerpyShadowz · June 2016

An example Zenimax since you dont seem to play your own game P:

Its definitely disheartening the gap between magicka and stamina lol xD Buffed and then over-buffed.

Like yesterday for example, We did a run with a new Templar DD for testing so it wasn't fully optimized group

I did just short of 39k on my NB while using Nerieneth set, and our only Stamina player Fosokles did just shy of 49k on his DK lol

10k Difference

50k+ is without a doubt in reach

You can see his post at the end of the chat box

There is definitely an issue with resources as magicka although i am sometimes confused where the issue is, Because some fights, im at 100% always (That parse i was more or less 100% magicka) But other fights im severely low and thats without even using Kena. But even so as Mashi says, even if resources were fixed, its not going to close that gap of 10k dps between Mag & Stamina, No way in hell.

And keep in mind this is a Stamina DK on its own, Everyone else is Magicka. I dont even want to know the possibilities with multiple Stamina users and the use of the sets that buff Stamina DPS even further.

EgoRush · June 2016

I've had a 2 month break from the game and can say magicka sustain is abysmal compared to how it was before this DB patch. I'm using the exact same build and running with the same group buffs as previously, but I'm running dry on magicka often as a healer when I'd usually never dip below 50%. I think the arguments in this thread have detracted from the intended point.

Gilliam listed some great examples that demonstrate the disparity between magicka and stamina return during raids. You can easily see from his list that magicka return outclasses stamina return. Especially for a magicka NB with Siphoning Attacks. Therefore, why is it that even magicka NBs are crying out for more magicka during single target encounters? If it is that Drain is being overwritten by Pierce Armour then this is a bug and should be fixed, and is also what the focus of this thread was intended to address. It's all well and good throwing some numbers around for how sustain compares between stamina and magicka builds, but it is irrelevant when a broken skill is involved.

Furthermore, arguments for how magicka can passively get magicka back on single target fights while stamina drop DPS from activating a synergy are completely moot because the opposite is true of AoE; if you don't have a Templar using Repentance on corpses during AoE to passively return stamina then your group is perhaps doing something wrong. Magicka builds during AoE have to rely on activating a synergy for Mystic Orbs, admittedly a great synergy and provides damage, but many magicka builds will confirm that most of the time the synergy is unresponsive and you end up wasting time chasing balls or miss the first only to wait for the second Orb.

That's 2 abilities that are either bugged or unresponsive that is making magicka sustain problematic in single target and AoE fights. Before DB there were little sustain issues for magicka or stamina when playing with a decent group. Since DB, I'm hearing a lot more "out of magicka" than "out of stamina". Additionally, those people who are experienced with both magicka and stamina classes, having played as both for considerable amounts of time rather than focusing on just one variant of one class, are all in agreement that magicka sustain is harder currently.

I think the focus should be on checking what is wrong with Elemental Drain and getting a fix out of ZOS. Then perhaps getting them to address the synergy responsiveness of Mystic Orbs.

YoloWizard · June 2016

@Gilliamtherogue

I'm not saying your calculations are wrong, I know nothing about theorycrafting. But I play Mag Sorc/DK alot and recently Stam NB/DK and these numbers sadly doesn't seems to work in fight situations. But lets say your calculations are correct (which probably be the case) but then there is something definitely broken in the game right now when it comes to magicka (either costs of skills or sustain support skills). I had Serpent fights that goes for like 12 mins on my magicka DK pre DB DLC and sustain was best with ele drain and mystic orbs only. Stamina was suffering so much then. Now its the exact opposite, at least for us.

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Stamina Khajiit Nightblade;
AoE cost-2084 (nado)
Spammable Cost-1488 (flurry, .6s channel, cheaper since it is not instant damage, casted 5 times it becomes 3 seconds @ 7440)
Main DOT Cost- 2084(trap), 745(rend), 1339(inject), 1936(barrage), and 5837(caltrops) 11941 total.
897 Stamina Regen unbuffed

Tornado: 1874
Rapid: 1339
Trap: 1874
Rendering: 670
Hail: 1384
Injection: 1205

With 100 points into Warlord
Absolutely no single ability costs for more than 2000 stamina apart from Caltrops

Vangy · June 2016

I know magicka has ele drain, blue balls etc.... But for some reason, with DB DLC, for the love of god almighty I simply CANNOT keep my magDKs magicka bar up.... I NEVER had this problem before patch. The cost increase hit magDKS hard cos we already have extremely expensive skills.... Im considering swapping one or 2 of my ring enchants to cost reduction instead of spell damage....

Gilliamtherogue · June 2016

YoloWizard wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue

I'm not saying your calculations are wrong, I know nothing about theorycrafting. But I play Mag Sorc/DK alot and recently Stam NB/DK and these numbers sadly doesn't seems to work in fight situations. But lets say your calculations are correct (which probably be the case) but then there is something definitely broken in the game right now when it comes to magicka (either costs of skills or sustain support skills). I had Serpent fights that goes for like 12 mins on my magicka DK pre DB DLC and sustain was best with ele drain and mystic orbs only. Stamina was suffering so much then. Now its the exact opposite, at least for us.

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Stamina Khajiit Nightblade;
AoE cost-2084 (nado)
Spammable Cost-1488 (flurry, .6s channel, cheaper since it is not instant damage, casted 5 times it becomes 3 seconds @ 7440)
Main DOT Cost- 2084(trap), 745(rend), 1339(inject), 1936(barrage), and 5837(caltrops) 11941 total.
897 Stamina Regen unbuffed

Tornado: 1874
Rapid: 1339
Trap: 1874
Rendering: 670
Hail: 1384
Injection: 1205

With 100 points into Warlord
Absolutely no single ability costs for more than 2000 stamina apart from Caltrops

Yes, Ele drain is being removed when another source of Major Breach is applied. There are work arounds but many players are unaware and some even neglect to remorph as it's apparently too much of a hassle. It's stupid I agree, but it's been reported for over 2 months and ZoS still refuses to fix it.

The reason our costs are different is because I listed 5/1/1 setup for armor, which leads to missing cost reduction and regeneration. The same could be said for Magicka users however.

As I mentioned before, 100 points into Warlord offers no gain over 98 points, as is the same for the caster version.

Gilliamtherogue · June 2016

It should also be noted that Molag Kena got a massive indirect nerf this patch, as 33% cost increase is EXTREMELY punishing now that all abilities have had their cost increase. Stamina users have never been able to sustain the 2 piece of this setup aside from burst fights, while casters were able to with ease, and now many casters are suffering from it as well. It should be noted that Skoria/Nerien'eth are only ~20% dps loss compared to Kena on single target, while they have the ability to out DPS Kena in AoE, with 0 sustain issues.

Van_0S · June 2016

OP, I think you a player having a redguard character for stamina.
Redguard race are OP, because you don't need to worry about resource( any melee attacks regain stamina) provided you don't dodgeroll a lot .( by which bosmer are best in PvP due to massive regen)

Tacadrie · June 2016

Vangy wrote: »

I know magicka has ele drain, blue balls etc.... But for some reason, with DB DLC, for the love of god almighty I simply CANNOT keep my magDKs magicka bar up.... I NEVER had this problem before patch. The cost increase hit magDKS hard cos we already have extremely expensive skills.... Im considering swapping one or 2 of my ring enchants to cost reduction instead of spell damage....

Totally agree with you! It's just horrible now