Why do we still have a Level System?

UltimaJoe777 · June 2016

No more Vet Ranks, EVERYWHERE will be battle-leveled soon... Seriously if this s**t goes any further south we're going to hit space mexico...

One of the most important aspects of an MMORPG is a good leveling system. Now all it does is serve as a gear requirement? And for what, gear that is actually worse than what someone under 20 wears? Stat points are pretty useless now since battle-leveling scales you based on distribution which means you only need like 2 points... It's basically just skyshards and champion points now so why have levels anymore? I'm honestly considering quitting now... If I wanted a more free-roaming game I'd play a single player game, like the Skyrim remake that was announced. Anyone else feel like I do?

Zenimax I implore you to keep battle-leveling out of alliance zones! DLCs are fine so people can play what they pay for immediately but this is taking it too far...

Voxicity · June 2016

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

One of the most important aspects of an MMORPG is a good leveling system.

I could argue that one of the most important aspects of an Elder Scrolls game is freedom to explore wherever you want to, which is what this change is going to give the player.

UltimaJoe777 · June 2016

Vox wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

One of the most important aspects of an MMORPG is a good leveling system.

I could argue that one of the most important aspects of an Elder Scrolls game is freedom to explore wherever you want to, which is what this change is going to give the player.

Then they could treat the Silver and Gold areas like the "Bronze" instead of battle-leveling everything. Elder Scrolls or not this is still supposed to be an MMORPG.

Turelus · June 2016

I think each person find difference in what's important to them in an MMO.

Honestly one of the more enjoyable MMO games I played was the first Guild Wars in which reaching level 20 was trivial and the games "levelling" was more about acquiring skills and making shiny looking armour.

You just got to play the end game content for fun rather than worry about levelling up. Also we still have the CP system so it's not like we don't have 3,600 levels to go through.

Gidorick · June 2016

A fully leveled character will always be more powerful than an unleveled character in a one on one situation. More skills, more abilities, more options.

If there is any part of the current system that goes against leveling it's the champion system and that was the case prior to One Tamriel.

UltimaJoe777 · June 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

A fully leveled character will always be more powerful than an unleveled character in a one on one situation. More skills, more abilities, more options.

If there is any part of the current system that goes against leveling it's the champion system and that was the case prior to One Tamriel.

That pretty much IS the leveling system at this point.

DDuke · June 2016

Vox wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

One of the most important aspects of an MMORPG is a good leveling system.

I could argue that one of the most important aspects of an Elder Scrolls game is freedom to explore wherever you want to, which is what this change is going to give the player.

You were free to explore higher level dungeons/areas in Morrowind too - only you'd get your ass kicked and you'd come back later with a vengeance. Exploring the world was an adventure and a good experience because you didn't know what to expect from each area.

They of course ruined that in Oblivion & Skyrim. Instead of dangerous areas that make you think "oh, I'll have to make my character stronger and come back" you get the same battle-leveled bandits over & over again that you beat by bashing your face on keyboard.

I see a lot of people make that remark about "Elder Scrolls" and "freedom to explore" - sadly people forget what made that exploring fun & memorable in the first place. Or maybe they just didn't play the good TES game and their only experience is Skyrim/Oblivion.

jircris11 · June 2016

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

No more Vet Ranks, EVERYWHERE will be battle-leveled soon... Seriously if this s**t goes any further south we're going to hit space mexico...

One of the most important aspects of an MMORPG is a good leveling system. Now all it does is serve as a gear requirement? And for what, gear that is actually worse than what someone under 20 wears? Stat points are pretty useless now since battle-leveling scales you based on distribution which means you only need like 2 points... It's basically just skyshards and champion points now so why have levels anymore? I'm honestly considering quitting now... If I wanted a more free-roaming game I'd play a single player game, like the Skyrim remake that was announced. Anyone else feel like I do?

Zenimax I implore you to keep battle-leveling out of alliance zones! DLCs are fine so people can play what they pay for immediately but this is taking it too far...

simply commenting due to the dbz abridge reference. They are trying to make eso more tes feeling. it will allways have lvls but it will allow people to help others without killing their XP.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · June 2016

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

A fully leveled character will always be more powerful than an unleveled character in a one on one situation. More skills, more abilities, more options.

If there is any part of the current system that goes against leveling it's the champion system and that was the case prior to One Tamriel.

That pretty much IS the leveling system at this point.

Have to agree with this. The way battle leveling works right now a battle leveled low level who knows what they are doing in blue or purple will have better stats then a level 50 in gold equipment. And it isnt even a little bit. The only thing that makes the 50 much more powerful is the champion points. Now given the 50 might have more options heal tank dps craft yada. But really even first getting to 50 you arent full of options.

DaveMoeDee · June 2016

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Vox wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

One of the most important aspects of an MMORPG is a good leveling system.

I could argue that one of the most important aspects of an Elder Scrolls game is freedom to explore wherever you want to, which is what this change is going to give the player.

Then they could treat the Silver and Gold areas like the "Bronze" instead of battle-leveling everything. Elder Scrolls or not this is still supposed to be an MMORPG.

What an "MMO" should be means nothing to me. Make the game entertaining. If I enjoy it, I enjoy it. ESO is competing with single player games as much as it competes with MMOs. Why should a player decide to buy ESO instead of The Witcher? One justification is being able to play coop with your friends. One Tamriel will make it easier to do that.

me_ming · June 2016

I can't wait until we can get a level 50 character right out of The Wailing Prison. Please Zenimax, make this happen. I don't want to level from 1-49, it's very tedious. lol

Seriously, though, I agree with OP. Leveling now seems meaningless. As much as I find it tedious to level characters, I also find it gratifying when I level it. Now, it just won't feel just as significant.

UltimaJoe777 · June 2016

Don't get me wrong I'm all about free roaming and exploring and having fun but they made ESO with the intent to make an MMORPG and it's just progressively feeling less like one. It basically boils down to the old confusion they suffer: Is Zenimax making an MMO or another TES?

DDuke · June 2016

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

Vox wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

One of the most important aspects of an MMORPG is a good leveling system.

I could argue that one of the most important aspects of an Elder Scrolls game is freedom to explore wherever you want to, which is what this change is going to give the player.

Then they could treat the Silver and Gold areas like the "Bronze" instead of battle-leveling everything. Elder Scrolls or not this is still supposed to be an MMORPG.

What an "MMO" should be means nothing to me. Make the game entertaining. If I enjoy it, I enjoy it. ESO is competing with single player games as much as it competes with MMOs. Why should a player decide to buy ESO instead of The Witcher? One justification is being able to play coop with your friends. One Tamriel will make it easier to do that.

Uhm... because they are two completely different gaming experiences?

I enjoy MMOs & RPGs both due to character progression. I like gathering stats, making my in game avatar able to complete tougher & tougher challenges.
I like comparing that character to other players characters & competing with and against them.

Can you do any of that in a single player game? Well, character progression to a lesser extent, yes. But apart from that those are all reasons to purchase a MMO instead.

Nothing says you can only play one game though.

NewBlacksmurf · June 2016

There are a lot of over reactions around the recent announcements but to respond to the OP question.

Levels are required as the base way calculations and skill, skill line and stat increase works on.
I think I'd rather the question be, why do we have CP indicators in place of levels 1-50

Levels make sense and while it provides indicators, it's not the only thing that counts as progression.

It's more important that skills and morphs as well as stats, materials, etc progress so that all working together, we have accomplishments.

Now that being said, progression isn't limited to levels.
Materials progress with no relation to another material without any numerical or level indicators. It's just mats that if used a certain way and refined or mixed, produce better results than others so we then consider some mats lesser and others greater. Then there are other progressions where mats are all the same but the recipe is what makes its better.

I'd like it if clothing and BS / woodworking followed a different way of progressing so that materials and motif accounted for artwork and styles while using more or treating things made them stronger.

nimander99 · June 2016

This makes ESO more like all the other Scrolls games and more realistic... I don't see how anyone could be against this.

Edit: Plus this could actually re-ignite Justice System Phase 2... Not saying I heard any rumors of this, just saying it could become way more feasible now.

Acrolas · June 2016

Puts on Training gear.
Goes from level 3 to 50 in a week.
Hits CP cap in a month
Looks around.
Can't find endgame in game.
Forum is still endgame.

DDuke · June 2016

nimander99 wrote: »

This makes ESO more like all the other Scrolls games and more realistic... I don't see how anyone could be against this.

Edit: Plus this could actually re-ignite Justice System Phase 2... Not saying I heard any rumors of this, just saying it could become way more feasible now.

Can people stop with this "like other Scrolls games" bs already?

DDuke wrote: »

Vox wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

One of the most important aspects of an MMORPG is a good leveling system.

I could argue that one of the most important aspects of an Elder Scrolls game is freedom to explore wherever you want to, which is what this change is going to give the player.

You were free to explore higher level dungeons/areas in Morrowind too - only you'd get your ass kicked and you'd come back later with a vengeance. Exploring the world was an adventure and a good experience because you didn't know what to expect from each area.

They of course ruined that in Oblivion & Skyrim. Instead of dangerous areas that make you think "oh, I'll have to make my character stronger and come back" you get the same battle-leveled bandits over & over again that you beat by bashing your face on keyboard.

I see a lot of people make that remark about "Elder Scrolls" and "freedom to explore" - sadly people forget what made that exploring fun & memorable in the first place. Or maybe they just didn't play the good TES game and their only experience is Skyrim/Oblivion.

notimetocare · June 2016

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

No more Vet Ranks, EVERYWHERE will be battle-leveled soon... Seriously if this s**t goes any further south we're going to hit space mexico...

One of the most important aspects of an MMORPG is a good leveling system. Now all it does is serve as a gear requirement? And for what, gear that is actually worse than what someone under 20 wears? Stat points are pretty useless now since battle-leveling scales you based on distribution which means you only need like 2 points... It's basically just skyshards and champion points now so why have levels anymore? I'm honestly considering quitting now... If I wanted a more free-roaming game I'd play a single player game, like the Skyrim remake that was announced. Anyone else feel like I do?

Zenimax I implore you to keep battle-leveling out of alliance zones! DLCs are fine so people can play what they pay for immediately but this is taking it too far...

So says you, all leveling is in an MMO is restriction until endgame. Name 3 games where the levelling system was more enjoyed than endgame content... Ill wait.

Gidorick · June 2016

nimander99 wrote: »

This makes ESO more like all the other Scrolls games and more realistic... I don't see how anyone could be against this.

Edit: Plus this could actually re-ignite Justice System Phase 2... Not saying I heard any rumors of this, just saying it could become way more feasible now.

heheh... so alliance could open the possibility of some sort of open world PVP @nimander99 ? The possibilities!

UltimaJoe777 · June 2016

nimander99 wrote: »

This makes ESO more like all the other Scrolls games and more realistic... I don't see how anyone could be against this.

Edit: Plus this could actually re-ignite Justice System Phase 2... Not saying I heard any rumors of this, just saying it could become way more feasible now.

Actually the level system of the other scrolls games is just as integral to it as anything else. In that regard ESO is starting to be less like them. As I said I'm all for giving players the freedom this will give but it should not be at the expense of the meaning and significance of the level system barring CPs.

UltimaJoe777 · June 2016

notimetocare wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

No more Vet Ranks, EVERYWHERE will be battle-leveled soon... Seriously if this s**t goes any further south we're going to hit space mexico...

One of the most important aspects of an MMORPG is a good leveling system. Now all it does is serve as a gear requirement? And for what, gear that is actually worse than what someone under 20 wears? Stat points are pretty useless now since battle-leveling scales you based on distribution which means you only need like 2 points... It's basically just skyshards and champion points now so why have levels anymore? I'm honestly considering quitting now... If I wanted a more free-roaming game I'd play a single player game, like the Skyrim remake that was announced. Anyone else feel like I do?

Zenimax I implore you to keep battle-leveling out of alliance zones! DLCs are fine so people can play what they pay for immediately but this is taking it too far...

So says you, all leveling is in an MMO is restriction until endgame. Name 3 games where the levelling system was more enjoyed than endgame content... Ill wait.

You'd be surprised how much people get out of accomplishing something as opposed to it being bottle-fed to them. That said almost every MMO in existance claims what you asked me to name off. The one game I can tell you does NOT though is Redstone. Leveling in that game was a nightmare in every possible way...Power-Leveling was literally the only way to get levels at even a decent rate.

Tekyn · June 2016

There is still a huge difference between a low level character and a high level character. Try looking at your passive skills sometime, and see just how much of a difference they make at any given level. People will still level up, growing in power as their level goes up. Things in any given zone will still be harder at low levels and easier at higher levels. The difference now is both the lower level and the higher level player have more options available. Higher level zones will still be harder than lower level zones.

You could already do quests 10 levels over you fairly easily if you tried, meaning you could skip an entire zone and be ok. You also currently get nothing for doing lower level content since items don't drop from mobs that don't give you XP. For most people this will be a big quality of life improvement.

Character progression and zone progression do not have to be one and the same, and getting rid of the last does not mean getting rid of the first. Being able to challenge yourself in harder areas can be fun, and having more options keeps you from having to do the same quest chains over and over on different characters.

Takuto · June 2016

Personally, I'm more interested in the idea of being able to revisit zones that I out-leveled too quickly. I always found it strange that an AD max leveled character had no reason to spend any time in AD areas, as they were all level 3-43, and there was no experience or drops available at 'home'. Why am I fighting on the side of the dominion if I haven't even been back for a visit since about a month after a ship captain scooped me out of the sea? I've been living in the dagger fall areas for years.

For some reason foreign mud crabs were many times stronger than the ones at 'home', despite looking being otherwise identical, none of this ever made any sense to me.

So far as the battle-leveling goes both ways, allowing higher level characters access to more content as well, i'm perfectly happy with the change.

Gidorick · June 2016

Takuto wrote: »

Personally, I'm more interested in the idea of being able to revisit zones that I out-leveled too quickly. I always found it strange that an AD max leveled character had no reason to spend any time in AD areas, as they were all level 3-43, and there was no experience or drops available at 'home'. Why am I fighting on the side of the dominion if I haven't even been back for a visit since about a month after a ship captain scooped me out of the sea? I've been living in the dagger fall areas for years.

For some reason foreign mud crabs were many times stronger than the ones at 'home', despite looking being otherwise identical, none of this ever made any sense to me.

So far as the battle-leveling goes both ways, allowing higher level characters access to more content as well, i'm perfectly happy with the change.

This is also what I'm excited about @Takuto . Making our home faction a viable play space is a HUGE plus.

susmitds · June 2016

notimetocare wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

No more Vet Ranks, EVERYWHERE will be battle-leveled soon... Seriously if this s**t goes any further south we're going to hit space mexico...

One of the most important aspects of an MMORPG is a good leveling system. Now all it does is serve as a gear requirement? And for what, gear that is actually worse than what someone under 20 wears? Stat points are pretty useless now since battle-leveling scales you based on distribution which means you only need like 2 points... It's basically just skyshards and champion points now so why have levels anymore? I'm honestly considering quitting now... If I wanted a more free-roaming game I'd play a single player game, like the Skyrim remake that was announced. Anyone else feel like I do?

Zenimax I implore you to keep battle-leveling out of alliance zones! DLCs are fine so people can play what they pay for immediately but this is taking it too far...

So says you, all leveling is in an MMO is restriction until endgame. Name 3 games where the levelling system was more enjoyed than endgame content... Ill wait.

Runescape. Morrowind. Kingdom Hearts.

Ravinsild · June 2016

The way I think it will work is it will still be levels 1-5 Start Islands...5-10 Start Zone, 10-20 Next zone, 20-30 next zone, etc... up to Coldharbour which is 45-50 roughly...Except now instead of 38-45 as EP you only get "The Rift" you can go to Reaper's March or Bangkorai...or even back track to Grahtwood and down-scale to 20 something but still level up. Or something like that.

I hope..

Gives more leveling paths...but you still go from 1-50+

DDuke · June 2016

Ravinsild wrote: »

The way I think it will work is it will still be levels 1-5 Start Islands...5-10 Start Zone, 10-20 Next zone, 20-30 next zone, etc... up to Coldharbour which is 45-50 roughly...Except now instead of 38-45 as EP you only get "The Rift" you can go to Reaper's March or Bangkorai...or even back track to Grahtwood and down-scale to 20 something but still level up. Or something like that.

I hope..

Gives more leveling paths...but you still go from 1-50+

That would be fantastic. Sadly, doesn't seem to be the case based on what we heard from E3 - they just prefer dumbing down the entire system.

More paths=good
No paths at all=bad

mechsauc3 · June 2016

well better level up now!

nimander99 · June 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

nimander99 wrote: »

This makes ESO more like all the other Scrolls games and more realistic... I don't see how anyone could be against this.

Edit: Plus this could actually re-ignite Justice System Phase 2... Not saying I heard any rumors of this, just saying it could become way more feasible now.

heheh... so alliance could open the possibility of some sort of open world PVP @nimander99 ? The possibilities!

I'm not a huge fan of pvp, as I'm pretty sure you know Gid, but an opt in/out system and everyone (not just 1/3) in the same phase could make for some interesting pvp options... If ZoS ever reconsidered Phase 2.

UltimaJoe777 · June 2016

Ravinsild wrote: »

The way I think it will work is it will still be levels 1-5 Start Islands...5-10 Start Zone, 10-20 Next zone, 20-30 next zone, etc... up to Coldharbour which is 45-50 roughly...Except now instead of 38-45 as EP you only get "The Rift" you can go to Reaper's March or Bangkorai...or even back track to Grahtwood and down-scale to 20 something but still level up. Or something like that.

I hope..

Gives more leveling paths...but you still go from 1-50+

If your alliance's zones don't battle level you then that's fine but from what I'm hearing that will be battle-leveled too.

nimander99 · June 2016

susmitds wrote: »

notimetocare wrote: »

UltimaJoe777 wrote: »

No more Vet Ranks, EVERYWHERE will be battle-leveled soon... Seriously if this s**t goes any further south we're going to hit space mexico...

One of the most important aspects of an MMORPG is a good leveling system. Now all it does is serve as a gear requirement? And for what, gear that is actually worse than what someone under 20 wears? Stat points are pretty useless now since battle-leveling scales you based on distribution which means you only need like 2 points... It's basically just skyshards and champion points now so why have levels anymore? I'm honestly considering quitting now... If I wanted a more free-roaming game I'd play a single player game, like the Skyrim remake that was announced. Anyone else feel like I do?

Zenimax I implore you to keep battle-leveling out of alliance zones! DLCs are fine so people can play what they pay for immediately but this is taking it too far...

So says you, all leveling is in an MMO is restriction until endgame. Name 3 games where the levelling system was more enjoyed than endgame content... Ill wait.

Runescape. Morrowind. Kingdom Hearts.

It's the progression and exploration that everyone used to love about mmo's, we still have the progression just no restriction.