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Story Discussion about the Dark Brotherhood [SPOILERS]

ShadowHvo
ShadowHvo
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Greetings everyone,

Ever since I completed the Dark Brotherhood storyline back on the PTS, I've wanted to have this discussion with pretty much everyone, just to see the different views, and opinions people might have of this topic. Least to say, this entire thread will be about spoilers for the Dark Brotherhood, and even Thieves Guild storylines.
First of all, let me start out with saying this: I feel I know what Zenimax is going for with the Dark Brotherhood storyline. To me, it seems like they tried to make us care, to make us feel hate and a desire for revenge against Lyra for murdering our new family. Right from the get go, we're introduced to a whole bunch of characters, most of which are very welcoming, and immediately seek to share their entire backstory with the Vestige.

Then soon after, we watch our family die one after another, all whilst we, as the Vestige, are left utterly powerless to prevent any of the murders. Not only is the player left powerless to stop any of it, in fact, if I am not mistaken, there is not a single turn of events the player have control over in the Dark Brotherhood storyline, nothing the player says, or do changes the outcome of the story. But the worst offender in my mind, is the sheer lack of connection and emotion that is established between the Dark Brotherhood members, and the Vestige.

To put this into example, both when Cimbar and Mirabelle was murdered infront of us, it felt strangely disconnected, in the sense that I did not truly care. I had barely just met them, and the same nearly goes for Green-Venom-Tongue (Which I will add, is actually a very beautifully designed character in my mind) but one which is easily killed off, without the proper emotional attachment being built between him, and the Vestige. The same assesment goes for Cimbar and Mirabelle too, yet I do believe Green-Venom-Tongue was closest, due to his longlivity in comparison to the former two.

The Dark Brotherhood, much like the Thieves Guild, consider their fellow guild members family, they all have strict rules as to not harm, or otherwise offend each other. We see this in the Black Marsh Sanctuary too, between Lyra and her decreased 'family'. We see a struggle in her, we notice how she actually has a difficult time carrying out the burden of the Silencer, to literally murder those that she herself, considers her beloved family, all because of the purification of the sanctuary.

But with the Vestige, and the storyline in the Dark Brotherhood, there is a complete disconnect from it all. Right from the get go, we're thrown a massive amount of background chatter into the face from nearly all Dark Brotherhood members, with the exception of Brema and Cimbar, both of which only have a brief appearence before being murdered.

Now, I consider myself a story entusiast, and oh boy do I love a good story! Which is why the Dark Brotherhood feels just so much more painful to play through, because it all feels forced.

To put this into perspective: Characters like Naryu, Darion, Kirith, Raynor, Skjor, Razum-Dar, Gabrielle, Verandis and Stibbons just to name a few, are all reccuring characters that appear every now and then, and continuesly progresses. This ensures that we, the players gets an emotional attachment to these characters. We feel for them, for we have seen them in their difficult times, we have aided them, and they too, have aided us. Which is why that their sacrifice, or misfortune, comes as a grave calling to us, and actually makes us care.

One might argue, that this is only because we see them time after time again, and that the Dark Brotherhood simply did not have the chance to live up to such expectations, yet I will claim differently, due to the superb storyline involving both Upper Craglorn, and the Thieves Guild in Abah's Landing.

The Thieves Guild succeeded greatly in this, by involving each members unique quests to get a feeling for them. You see the struggle each member has amongst the crew, you see their fears, their doubts, and you even have the joyful pleasure of making Misses Snarky and Harsh Dunmer, Velsa, care and be thankful. Every single important member of the Thieves Guild who play an intergral part of the storyline, have had time to be developed so we, as the Vestige, can feel an emotional attachment.

This is why we care so much for Zeira's capture, why we seek to free her almost immediately. We fear her execution because we understand her, we got to see her soft side, and we saw her grow from a failure that had lost all hope, to an inspiring Guild Master that sought to restore glory to not only herself, but everyone else.

The Thieves Guild in itself, sheer size wise, is around the same size in its story as the Dark Brotherhood, which is why I believe Zenimax has taken a misstep here, and should seek to give characters proper time to develop. Killing off characters can be a really beautiful, and exellent tool for storytelling, however, it only works if you give the character the proper build up first, and the only two that was even close to receive that in The Dark Brotherhood, was Green-Venom-Tongue and Lyra.

If we wish to see where a sacrifice has been beautifully made in ESO, I will claim that Darion (I know he is still alive, but his 'capture/lost' state is still felt!), Verandis and my personal favorite: Little Leaf, have had the most beautiful deaths / disappearences in ESO to date, because they were characters we cared for, we got to know them, we saw them for whom they really were, an emotional attachment was esablished, and thus, the disappearence/murder of them was as brilliant as ever.

I just personally, find it really sad to buy the Dark Brotherhood DLC, only to then end up loving the small side quests with Raynor, Kirith, Razum-Dar, Naryu and even Mel-Adrys (Thank you for making a vampire hunter notice vampires btw!) much more than the main storyline of the entire DLC. The Sweetroll Killer for example, is by far the best quest in the entire DLC if you ask me, simply due to the choices, and the emotional attachment you have to the characters.

Dark Brotherhood is an awesome guild, but this storyline felt rushed and lacking, not only in its choices, but so too, in its presentation. It all felt like a build up without any other purpose, than preparing the Vestige for a confrontation between the Dark Brotherhood, and the Morag Tong in Vvardenfell. Which I do sincerely hope, will have some choices in it, for there is no way on Tamriel I would choose any of the Dark Brotherhood members above Naryu and her fellow established Morag Tong comrades, at least not with the current character build-up.

I realize this was a bit of a rant, but I'm very interested to hear what you guys think of the Dark Brotherhood storyline? Naturally this entire talk will feel redundant for all who doesn't care about the story of ESO, but what about those of you who do? Whats your feelings towards it?




Nighren - The Shadow Striker
Leader of Bloodlines
-- EU --


Want to roleplay in elder scrolls online? Check out eso-rp.com
  • j3crow
    j3crow
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    I agree with some of your observations. However, I think its still an enjoyable DLC, even if you have to 'internal RP' a little to get invested.

    In defense of ZOS, I'm guessing like all things, it was a matter of time/resource management. There is probably some really cool stuff/story that didn't make the final cut. But would end up in an extended version, if such things were to exist
  • Kendaric
    Kendaric
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    I have to agree, TG handled that a lot better. DB is still enjoyable, but that is mostly due to the sidequests.
      PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!. Outfit slots not being accountwide is ridiculous given their price. PC EU/PC NA roleplayer and solo PvE quester
    • Vrienda
      Vrienda
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      Agree with some of what you said, namely that the side quests seemed to be of much higher quality, especially in regards to choices affecting the quest.

      But I did feel some attachment to Mirabelle and Venom, not so much Cimbar who I can barely remember. But I liked Mira and Venom's characters quite a bit and was sad they died. Hell I was even a little angry that I couldn't save Mirabelle from the Lyra whom didn't do very well at hiding the PAINFULLY OBVIOUS truth of her identity. I mean come on! She was wearing black clothes with a scale-like exterior and a cocky I'm-better-than-you attitude. The second I met her I knew she was the black drake and yet I was completely powerless to stop her killing Mirabelle.

      As for Venom they could have done something on-screen with him I think, instead of him getting stabbed behind closed doors.

      Dark Brotherhood is a great DLC but the main quest, sadly, does little to prove that. Gameplay mechanics and the side quests are what end up saving the Dark Brotherhood and I hope ZOS realise this and instead follow the quest formula they used with 'The Sweetroll Killer' instead of any of the main quests in this DLC in the future.
      Desperate for Roleplaying servers to bring open world non-organised RP to Elder Scrolls Online. Please ZOS.
    • ShadowHvo
      ShadowHvo
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      j3crow wrote: »
      I agree with some of your observations. However, I think its still an enjoyable DLC, even if you have to 'internal RP' a little to get invested.

      In defense of ZOS, I'm guessing like all things, it was a matter of time/resource management. There is probably some really cool stuff/story that didn't make the final cut. But would end up in an extended version, if such things were to exist

      Honestly yeah, I do believe the same. We know Zenimax can create some amazing storylines, and I did overall enjoy the DLC as of whole, just not the main storyline of the Dark Brotherhood I'm afraid.
      Aeula wrote: »
      But I did feel some attachment to Mirabelle and Venom, not so much Cimbar who I can barely remember. But I liked Mira and Venom's characters quite a bit and was sad they died. Hell I was even a little angry that I couldn't save Mirabelle from the Lyra whom didn't do very well at hiding the PAINFULLY OBVIOUS truth of her identity. I mean come on! She was wearing black clothes with a scale-like exterior and a cocky I'm-better-than-you attitude. The second I met her I knew she was the black drake and yet I was completely powerless to stop her killing Mirabelle.

      Oh-my-god yes. I had actually completely forgot about that. Lyra's reveal was utterly so, too obvious. We just knew from the get go, THIS IS THE BLACK DRAGON! NO! MIrabelle get away from there! And yet, we were still completely unable to do anything, despite her being so obvious.

      But I'm honestly glad that you felt an attachment to Mirabelle, I'm just sad that I myself did not. In general though, I really wish there would've been an option of a sort, that could've determined the outcome.
      Nighren - The Shadow Striker
      Leader of Bloodlines
      -- EU --


      Want to roleplay in elder scrolls online? Check out eso-rp.com
    • Saturn
      Saturn
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      I will put all comment in a spoiler tag as it talks about the Main Story, Orsinium, Thieves' Guild and Dark Brotherhood:
      I agree with the point that the story is a bit too fast. When Darien disappears at the end of the main story it feels awful because he's been a side character for such a long time. Similar to when you think Razum'dar dies in the ruins (if you picked that choice).

      I think I liked the Dark Brotherhood a lot more than the Thieves' Guild, but they did a way better job with the characters in TG, since the main characters had side stories that had you look into their lives.

      I was slightly disappointed by the fact that DB didn't have impactful choices, or had you choose between characters like in the Orsinium story. If you save the Altmer (don't remember his name) the High Priestess dies, if you kill the Altmer she lives. There were also various changes based around your choice in the Orsinium story. If you save the Altmer then Sharp-Arrow doesn't block the arrow, but if you kill the Altmer she does. Also she will be mad at you if you kill him, but not if you don't. She will also end up either working for the new king or not working for the new king, based on what choice you made. Something like that is what I felt like both TG and DB missed.

      Thieves' Guild did give you a lot of choices at its end for the "Loose Ends" quest, but that's about it.

      On a sidenote, have you tried to tell Hildegaard to not come back to the Brotherhood and seen what effect that has? I have not tried that option, but I suspect it may have a slight impact, but maybe not.

      I think a lot of games suffer from poor pacing. Good movies, series or just stories in general are not only good because the story is well-made or full of surprises, but also because the pacing is just right. If you take too long to finish a story arch the viewer might get bored, if you are too quick they won't be able to form a proper attachment to it.

      In terms of story length I think that Orsinium did a really good job, but TG and DB were too short. There was too little time with the character you were supposed to care about.

      All that being said, I was really surprised to see Mirabelle and Green-Venom-Tongue get killed, like I didn't really expect it. Especially because the other DLCs put you in situations like that without anyone dying. It sort of reminded me a bit of Akame ga Kill, since it was very unexpected.

      Also, I agree, the Sweetroll Killer is the freaking best side story in the game. It's really long, it has an interesting story with meaningful choices and it reintroduces a lot of characters we already care about.
      "Madness is a bitter mercy, perhaps, but a mercy nonetheless."

      Fire and Ice
    • Abeille
      Abeille
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      Kendaric wrote: »
      I have to agree, TG handled that a lot better. DB is still enjoyable, but that is mostly due to the sidequests.

      I too think TG did it better, and I feel it was because we had character-specific quest chains that helped us connect to them.

      We didn't have that with DB, except for Kor/Hildegard (and it was only one quest).

      The DB character that I feel most connected with is the repeatable quests giver, Elam Drals. And that's because he doesn't immediately tells me everything about him (and he comments that he finds my curiosity about his past kinda creepy), but I get to know him a little better with each contract I turn in.
      Just so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.

      Meet my characters:
      Command: Do the thing.

      Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
      Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
      Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
      Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
      Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
      Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
      Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
      Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
      Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
      Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.
    • Tib
      Tib
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      Elam Drals is so cool!
      Me - "I want to know more about you, Elam."
      Elam - "I feel flattered... no, that's not the right word. Uncomfortable?"

      I've added a lot of his Contracts dialogue on UESP, but I'm sadly missing AD side which seems bugged to me :sweat_smile: He seems to have some kind of food-fetish btw...O_O

      I wonder if anyone else liked the Black Dragon...
      aka Lyra (cough, probably useless putting this inside the spoiler tag lol).

      Although she is supposed to be on the bad side, and we are supposed to be taking revenge by killing her, it doesn't really feel that great at the end. Her whole story is rather dramatic and sad. If she was ordered to purify her own Sanctuary, she was just a tool for carrying out that order. People were just using her for their own purpose.

      I really like the whole idea behind this character, it somehow fits the Dark Brotherhood theme so damn well... to me, her character is perhaps the most interesting one. If I had a choice I wouldn't have killed her I think :D
      ~Tibbie~
      Senior Achievement Seeker, Scholar of UESP and the laziest trader in Tamriel
      Editor and Recent Changes Patroller at UESP
      Member of Beyond Skyrim: Iliac Bay
    • Abeille
      Abeille
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      Elam Drals is so cool!
      Me - "I want to know more about you, Elam."
      Elam - "I feel flattered... no, that's not the right word. Uncomfortable?"

      I've added a lot of his Contracts dialogue on UESP, but I'm sadly missing AD side which seems bugged to me :sweat_smile: He seems to have some kind of food-fetish btw...O_O

      I wonder if anyone else liked the Black Dragon...
      aka Lyra (cough, probably useless putting this inside the spoiler tag lol).

      Although she is supposed to be on the bad side, and we are supposed to be taking revenge by killing her, it doesn't really feel that great at the end. Her whole story is rather dramatic and sad. If she was ordered to purify her own Sanctuary, she was just a tool for carrying out that order. People were just using her for their own purpose.

      I really like the whole idea behind this character, it somehow fits the Dark Brotherhood theme so damn well... to me, her character is perhaps the most interesting one. If I had a choice I wouldn't have killed her I think :D

      Elam is AWESOME! I love him so much. I could listen to his chuckles all day.
      He said he would cut my throat just for fun if I asked him nicely. I think he likes me.
      Just so that everyone knows, my Altmer still can't have black hair. About a dozen of Altmer NPCs in the game have black hair. Just saying.

      Meet my characters:
      Command: Do the thing.

      Zadarri, Khajiit Fist of Thalmor: The thing was done, as commanded.
      Durza gra-Maghul, Orc blacksmith: The thing was done perfectly, in the most efficient way.
      Tegwen, Bosmer troublemaker: You can't prove I didn't do the thing.
      Sings-Many-Songs, Argonian fisher: Sure, I'll do the thing... Eventually. Maybe.
      Aerindel, Altmer stormcaller: After extensive research, I've come to the conclusion that doing the thing would be a waste of resources.
      Liliel, Dunmer pyromancer: Aerindel said I shouldn't do the thing. Something about "resources".
      Gyda Snowcaller, Nord cryomancer: I will find a way to do it that won't waste resources and make Aerindel proud of me.
      Beatrice Leoriane, Breton vampire: I persuaded someone else into doing the thing. You are welcome, dear.
      Sahima, Redguard performer: Doing the thing sounds awfully unpleasant and really not my problem.
      Ellaria Valerius, Imperial priestess: I'll pray to the Eight for the thing to be done, if it is Their will.
    • Ep1kMalware
      Ep1kMalware
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      it is pretty cool, but oblivion did it the best imho. skyrim was okaaay, but it feels like oblivion did the best qith thwir db/thieves guild storylines.

      That moment when you walk into the cabin and see lechance all ste]rung up naked,or when you figure out your high stakes heighsts are part of a masterfully crafted plan to steal an elderscroll and change one man's destiny, dude!

      Thieves guild just let me down, and db feels recycled.
      Edited by Ep1kMalware on June 12, 2016 1:44AM
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