I'm not feeling the Champion level.

Elsterchen · June 2016

The actual thing that bugs me most is that the claim of horizontal progression is exactly just that: a claim.

How do you reach horizontal progression in a vertical leveling system like VR and CP?

@ZOS_GinaBruno, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

All you did now is renumbering. that is it. next CP cap will determine the next best thing, related to the next best mats that craft the next best gear. So... what exactly changed when VR converted to CP (appart from the numbers?). In what way is CP based progression horizontal ?

dsalter · June 2016

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I think @Uriel_Nocturne and @Robbmrp that you all are taking this OP and moving it to something completely different.

The topic doesn't agree with cosmetically converting VR levels to numeric levels in the same functionality as the Vet system.
The topic is suggesting that the current attempt to display requirements and NPC difficulty as well as character progression from the VR system as a CP level isn't desired and feels done wrong.

Its not anything around VR levels staying character specific and being character levels 50-66 (which by the way VR wasn't even a character level)

*I just wanted to clarify that you don't agree but perhaps you all as well as I feel that displaying CP is wrong. Just that, and nothing else.

I disagree. Even the OP has agreed with us on the content in this thread and the detrimental effects it's having on the game.

Even if the display of the CP totals were the core issue at hand, that in itself opens up an entirely new host of issues directly related to that display.

Some of those are also mentioned in https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/269331/cp-displays-negative-side-effects#latest <--- this thread.

The elitism is starting to rear its ugly head, just as was forewarned in the PTS. And that's only one issue around displaying the CP totals. There are more, and the firestorm is already starting.

While I know I sound like some lunatic "doomsayer", the truth of the matter is that it's starting. It is really happening.

And it is all tied back to the insistence that Vet Ranks needed to be removed, and the very vocal minority was able to convince Zenimax that an "only CP progression end-game" was somehow a good idea.

The related aftereffects are inseparable from the root cause brought forth by @Gidorick .

got removed from a pug group cause i had 385 cp (when before the update i'v stomped every dungeon and vet dungeon).

take what you will from that example.

cosmic_niklas_93b16_ESO · June 2016

Jennifur_Vultee wrote: »

The simple solution was obvious but some people hated VR with a passion and would accept nothing less than the rebranding of VR that they got. Zenimax could have done something like this...

Keep the current VR leveling structure in place, a new player leveling from level 49 becomes VR1.

A player on an alt that levels to VR1 could be given the option to jump to the players highest VR level or continue to level normally as if there was no change. If they chose to level normally they could reset that later for a fee, maybe 5000 gold or something to jump the alt to their max character VR level. That would have made people who don't want to actually play alts to max level happy and would have made people like me who wanted to play alts to max level happy.

What we got was a simple rebranding of VR to CP Ranks with everyone's alts auto jumping to max character level. We also got the associated visual eyesore that is Level 50 Champion Point XXX system...its not simple to read at a glance like the VR shield and number. CP as a leveling system is messy, introduces yet again another number bloat because hey 160 is bigger than 16 so it must be better. Its nothing but lip service to those who hated VR, a slap in the face to those who liked VR and introduces a system that feels cumbersome. I personally hate the conversion.

Have you ever seen ZoS do things that makes everyone happy? I've not seen that happen in the over 2 years I've been on the forums myself.

Arato · June 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Arato wrote: »

In a perfect world, ESO wouldn't even have a level system at all, just skill levels and champion perk points, but zones wouldn't be level based, some mobs would be tougher than others in the same zone.

You'd then have materials gathered not by what level they are, but how they fit into the geography of the zone.

Like you wouldn't find the same types of trees in Skyrim that you'd find in Summerset isles.

In that system the quality of gear you could wear would be determined by your skill level rather than an overall character level (IE to wear Ebony gear you'd need 45+ in heavy armor)

I disagree that we shouldn't have a level system at all @Arato I DO agree that the surrounding world shouldn't be based on that leveling system in the way that it is. Different sections of each zone should have varied in levels. We should have had the feeling of "woah, I'll come back later" in certain areas of every zone, like deep forest. When low level, we should have had a reason to stay on the roads, not go out at night and not venture too deep into caves and such. Heck, even caves should have multiple "levels" in them. Every zone should have areas of play that are viable for multiple levels of characters.

Having level based crafting materials always struck me as being odd. I get that better materials yield better gear, that's as it should be. but I don't get low level characters not being able to equip high level gear. If you can afford it or make it with an alt, why not? Heck... I would even support an "overleveled gear" negative effect.

Sure you're more protected and you're defense statistics are higher but your movement speed is reduced. Better protected but walking around clumsily.

Oh well. What could have been, eh?

Well the way I see it, because we have individual skill lines with individual skill levels, there's no need for there to be an overall "character level" at all, and it feels really artificial to have zones segregated by level to begin with. Single player TES games don't work that way, and they feel more organic because of it.

I mean why's a giant spider in this zone so much more powerful than a giant spider one loading screen away in another zone?

Essentially more sandbox elements while still maintaining a high quality of developer made content and quests.

This game tries to bridge TES and MMO, unfortunately it takes too many themepark elements from the MMO side.

That would be cool, but I suspect its considered a little too avant garde for most consumers sadly.

Perhaps, I think the main problem people would complain about is not being able to tell how powerful a character was relative to them at a glance. Seeing a level they can determine whether or not they can try taking someone in PVP. Under my system it'd be harder to tell. You'd have to know what each armor/weapon type looked like for every material and every style.

There'd be a little bit of UO in that way. Encountering someone you didn't know if you could take them or not right off the bat.

NewBlacksmurf · June 2016

So why even have CP of the actual leveling system that existed with VR is still here?

What's the point of a CP cap for using Passives and another CP cap for gear

Wasn't the whole point of removing VR partly cause the two systems couldn't co-exist as they didn't make sense together?

Why don't we have gear with an indicator of how strong it is (not a CP indicator)
And then keep the CP cap for use and remove the CP requirement for gear entirely.

Gear should be gear....and if it gets better by NPC difficult that works but NPC difficulty should align with levels 49-56+ not any CPs cause NPCs aren't assigning CP points...right?

If they are, then we need to know what's assigned to combat them which requires a whole different design.

Gidorick · June 2016

I didn't think the veteran system WITH the CP system couldn't coexist @NewBlacksmurf , I quite liked the combination of the two. Sure, I think the CP system could be tweaked a bit but it was cool to have little progressions that helped you build toward a large goal. Now there is no larger goal.

I still believe the problem with Vet ranks was the fact that players just hit an XP wall with Vet Ranks. The below image uses the actual level to vet ranks ratio.

If ZOS just continued the stairs at the same rate, no one would have minded.

Oh well... it's past. No sense in whining about it anymore. We're stuck with Champion Points alone. Such a shame.

ConeOfSilence · June 2016

I like the new system. In reality there wasn't much value in the vet rankings only in health, stam and magic attribute points, the real toon changing power is in the CP points, e.g more crit damage , faster stam regen and so forth. There is still the grind too until you get to 501 my vet16 was only just over 400 when the system changed over.

Gidorick · June 2016

ConeOfSilence wrote: »

I like the new system. In reality there wasn't much value in the vet rankings only in health, stam and magic attribute points, the real toon changing power is in the CP points, e.g more crit damage , faster stam regen and so forth. There is still the grind too until you get to 501 my vet16 was only just over 400 when the system changed over.

I completely admit that my issue isn't so much the power gained by CP leveling or the stats gained but the fact that now we level in a bunch of tiny little levels @ConeOfSilence , it's the feeling of the leveling as you level, not the end result.

Volkodav · June 2016

What I dont like hs that I have to do the math if I wonder what level someone is now.
I see someone with an 8 to the left on their name plate,and I wonder,is that their level,or their points earned.
Please forgive me if I seem dumb,I dont mean to. It was just perfect with the way it used to be.You targeted a person,and their levels and titles showed under their names.That was it.No figuring out this or that.
I know it seems a simply thing to do,but I cant get it right.

xoduspaladin · June 2016

I haven't read every post on here, but I can honestly say that the only reason I came back to the game was the promise of the Veteran level being taken out. I haven't tested out the new champion system just yet (waiting on the DLC on PS4), but from what I have read of it, it seems like a great improvement. I have a main right now sitting on about 200 Champion points, which should be enough to do everything in ESO as it stands right now I believe. My alt who I just got up to VR1 can also automatically be able to do most, if not all, of the contents now because he also have 200 champion points. I don't have to worry about grinding either one of these guys to VR16 anymore, a grind that was boring enough to get me away from the game for months until they completely got rid of VR. Now I'm coming back, doing the stuff I missed like the thieves guild, the Imperial DLC, finishing up Wrothgod, etc., and my friends have also came back looking forward to the new system and DLC.

All of this being said, I can definitely understand why people feel a certain way about the removal of vet ranks, especially those who put the effort to get there to VR16. Even so, it isn't like Zenimax didn't warn us (for over a year now) that they were removing the ranks. At the end of the day, Zenimax did what the felt would have gotten more gamers to come back to ESO, and this was an important first step.

Kalifas · June 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

So why even have CP of the actual leveling system that existed with VR is still here?

What's the point of a CP cap for using Passives and another CP cap for gear

Wasn't the whole point of removing VR partly cause the two systems couldn't co-exist as they didn't make sense together?

Why don't we have gear with an indicator of how strong it is (not a CP indicator)
And then keep the CP cap for use and remove the CP requirement for gear entirely.

Gear should be gear....and if it gets better by NPC difficult that works but NPC difficulty should align with levels 49-56+ not any CPs cause NPCs aren't assigning CP points...right?

If they are, then we need to know what's assigned to combat them which requires a whole different design.

1. The only reason VR got removed was because it was character bound,VR remnants are still here but without being character bound.
2. There is no good point. CP capped gear is not good for judging player roles or strength because it is too open ended.
3. The only reason VR got removed was so playing alts wasn't as time consuming which is why CP is account wide now.
4.That would be ilvl gear. In a vertical progression game that is perfect. In horizontal not so much. I would remove the CP cap for gear if it was up to me.
5. I doubt npcs abide by CP. Some of the enemies have 2 million HP.

For Group Based Endeavors:
This game sorely needs an in game build selector to swap between builds. It needs a role definer system. If you have key skills and gear designed to cater to one of the trinity roles then the game needs to lock you into that and give other players and indicator for group based content.

Sword=Close quarters DPS, Shield=Tank, Bow=Ranged DPS, Staff=Healer, Control=Needle.
Then a graphic overlay that surrounds the icons that indicates what style is most used.
Explosions=Burst, Drop=Overtime.
Then they could color those overlays red,green,or blue to indicate what attribute you are most attuned to.

Since everyone is Level 50 and might stay that way forever. And if CP caps do eventually raise from 501 and is so open ended. CP caps is the wrong way to judge roles and efficiency. That leaves gear as the the optimal solution for basing judgement.

They have two options:
ILvl= It works, but it ends up with gear being recycled to fast and a constant treadmill of the same type of gears slightly powered up. When the next ilvl raises, rinse and repeat. In a vertical game it works. The stats aren't always better in categories wanted but it works to keep gear up to date.

Content based= Gear is recognized as tiered sets which are earned from specific contents. The best sets come from the most difficult content in the type of content they are being itemized for. Can work in a vertical game if the gear is longstanding and not recycled too often. This tiered type flourishes in horizontal progression.

In my opinion gear is the best way to judge how competent someone is because you can see what they have done based off their accomplishments. The time to complete can vary but the fruits are very visual and easily seen. Of course a very skilled player can overcome some of the gear boons, but we are just talking about competency or a medium playing field starting point when grouping up to increase the chances of successful runs.

WanderingJarlPuncher · June 2016

actually, i wa against the nerfing of the vr levels.

mb10 · June 2016

Funny thing is everybody now seems to be against it but 90% of this forum were crying for it for almost a whole year hahah

Gidorick · June 2016

mb10 wrote: »

Funny thing is everybody now seems to be against it but 90% of this forum were crying for it for almost a whole year hahah

Yea... some of us cried out against it but our complaints were not heard @mb10

mb10 · June 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

mb10 wrote: »

Funny thing is everybody now seems to be against it but 90% of this forum were crying for it for almost a whole year hahah

Yea... some of us cried out against it but our complaints were not heard @mb10

@Gidorick yep I was one of you guys too. Its a shame that the majority moaners and complainers actually get their way sometimes

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · June 2016

Well, as it is at this very moment, I can't play my main, and it has be the reason I do not come online anymore.

I was focussing on maxing this character (autism-OCD, I call it), but I keep dying more then I can kill white mobs.

That's 13 euro down the drain for me...

I_killed_Vivec · June 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

I didn't think the veteran system WITH the CP system couldn't coexist @NewBlacksmurf , I quite liked the combination of the two. Sure, I think the CP system could be tweaked a bit but it was cool to have little progressions that helped you build toward a large goal. Now there is no larger goal.

I still believe the problem with Vet ranks was the fact that players just hit an XP wall with Vet Ranks. The below image uses the actual level to vet ranks ratio.

If ZOS just continued the stairs at the same rate, no one would have minded.

Oh well... it's past. No sense in whining about it anymore. We're stuck with Champion Points alone. Such a shame.

I didn't see the problem with VR at all. Yes, the size of the steps was greater, but these were Veteran ranks!

I also enjoyed the way I came into each zone a little below the VR rank for that zone and had to fight hard. Then I levelled up and the second half of the zone was easier, but when I started the next zone it was more difficult again. Each zone, as well as each VR, gave a sense of progression.

CP were originally heralded as something different, something that would increase diversity, reward different choices. Something that would provide "horizontal" progression - which was obviously a myth. In a game where you progress by killing things, you want to get better at killing things

Apart from a more granulated progression (but even more of a grind), the only thing that CP offer that VR didn't is that they are account based.

And even though I've taken advantage of that myself I'm not sure it's a good thing...

Gidorick · June 2016

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

And even though I've taken advantage of that myself I'm not sure it's a good thing...

SO much this @I_killed_Vivec ... I really think in a years time the forum will be full of people complaining that they are bored because they are at CP cap and they don't feel like playing if they aren't going to progress.

Potenza · June 2016

If you know the history of VR ranks in this game, you wouldn't even be having this discussion.

Uriel_Nocturne · June 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

And even though I've taken advantage of that myself I'm not sure it's a good thing...

SO much this @I_killed_Vivec ... I really think in a years time the forum will be full of people complaining that they are bored because they are at CP cap and they don't feel like playing if they aren't going to progress.

Agreed @Gidorick . You, I, and a whole host of other people warned people about this. We told them that the Elitism and Horizontal Progression would set in, and after that there would be nothing but boredom and a sense of "why bother?".

But no..... "But muh Alts!!!" they said. "I dont want to grindeez teh Vet Ranks!!! Such a chore!!" they said.

Now they realize that the CP system is going to be even more of a chore to grind, and once they have eight characters at max CP and gear, what then?

But no... no one wanted to listen. No one wanted to think about the "future" or plan ahead. They just wanted VR's gone, they didn't care about how they went away, they just wanted them gone ASAP, with no thought about what the game would be like once they were replaced.

Well, now they get to see.

Gargath · June 2016

Personally I feel odd with CP and when vets are gone. When I reached lvl50 with my sorcerer and geared him up to CP150-160... I started another alt from scratch. Not sure why, like I feel it means completing an achievement for reaching end game, without anything special awaiting later. Really weird, but playing through veteran levels before, I was encouraged stronger into game and further steps. Levelling lower levels just looks more interesting for my type than just running around harvesting mats and remaining achievements in top level

.

WillhelmBlack · June 2016

CP system and removal of soft caps through the whole game out of balance. They've gone way too far to reverse any changes and same goes for VR removal. Not sure they'll find balance now before the game is over, let's just carry on, it's still the best MMO out there.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO · June 2016

CP in my opinion are a wellcome change. This way when we group with people we can see how much CP they have.

Ravinsild · June 2016

Feels like Diablo Paragon levels to me. -shrug-

Gidorick · June 2016

Ravinsild wrote: »

Feels like Diablo Paragon levels to me. -shrug-

And neither of those are part of The Elder Scrolls franchise @Ravinsild , that's my main gripe.

Ravinsild · June 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

Ravinsild wrote: »

Feels like Diablo Paragon levels to me. -shrug-

And neither of those are part of The Elder Scrolls franchise @Ravinsild , that's my main gripe.

Paragon levels, as far as I know, aren't some grand feature of Diablo either. It's just a progression model for post cap. WoW raises the level cap every expansion. Diablo incentivizes you to keep farming to just make your character infinitely more strong after "level cap".

Would you have preferred the WoW model? How do you want your character to grow post 50? We could always do the gear treadmill. Replace your gear every 6 months with newer, shinier, better gear.

This is an MMO. Gotta keep people going one way or another. What's the most "Elder Scrolls" way to get strong after your capped?

NewBlacksmurf · June 2016

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

I didn't think the veteran system WITH the CP system couldn't coexist @NewBlacksmurf , I quite liked the combination of the two. Sure, I think the CP system could be tweaked a bit but it was cool to have little progressions that helped you build toward a large goal. Now there is no larger goal.

I still believe the problem with Vet ranks was the fact that players just hit an XP wall with Vet Ranks. The below image uses the actual level to vet ranks ratio.

If ZOS just continued the stairs at the same rate, no one would have minded.

Oh well... it's past. No sense in whining about it anymore. We're stuck with Champion Points alone. Such a shame.

I didn't see the problem with VR at all. Yes, the size of the steps was greater, but these were Veteran ranks!

I also enjoyed the way I came into each zone a little below the VR rank for that zone and had to fight hard. Then I levelled up and the second half of the zone was easier, but when I started the next zone it was more difficult again. Each zone, as well as each VR, gave a sense of progression.

CP were originally heralded as something different, something that would increase diversity, reward different choices. Something that would provide "horizontal" progression - which was obviously a myth. In a game where you progress by killing things, you want to get better at killing things

Apart from a more granulated progression (but even more of a grind), the only thing that CP offer that VR didn't is that they are account based.

And even though I've taken advantage of that myself I'm not sure it's a good thing...

@I_killed_Vivec and @Gidorick

You all are talking about content and not the system.
The content is fine and as it exists today, its not a problem at all but the systems is what I'm pointing out, which cannot and do not mix.

When i say they do not mix, I'm speaking of the current state of the game where VR was converted into the CP system.

VR was a system that attempted to expand materials, gear progression without new content.
Later VR had Craglorn but the system was to offer individual characters, some type of progression beyond level 49.

CP is a system that is optional. This system offers a choice to further enhance certain focuses of a character by use of passives. This too is individual based but the way we add more points is account based. This system serves to offer individual (difficulty slider so to speak) options for characters of level 1- VR16. Now its levels 1-50

Here is the problem.
-CP is no longer optional, its forced therefore its no longer a difficulty slider if desired to be.
-PVP is impacted by CP from gear post 49 and passives from level 1-50 and CP gear in non-CP campaigns.
- CP tiers are now to somehow represent VR levels but they don't because anyone who had a mix of VR's now is promoted without adequate gear to a much higher CP (VR level)
- Scaled content doesn't work in the use of CP's because anytime a CP cap is raised, the catch-up serves to sling-shot new players past all relevant content. And again level 1's use CP not just level 50's
- CP 160 isn't actually the cap, its 501
- VR16 is not anywhere close to what CP 160 represents so its very miss-matched
- What is next CP 170-180 gear and mats or CP 501-?
- How does the base content function if you continue to raise the CP on an account because not I"m above 400 so while I can choose not to use CP, I don't have that option in previous Vet zones because regardless of what I use, the scaling and content is based on total CP and not used CP (correct me if something was changed recently)

NewBlacksmurf · June 2016

j.murro2ub17_ESO wrote: »

If you know the history of VR ranks in this game, you wouldn't even be having this discussion.

@j.murro2ub17_ESO

I don't think many who are in the discussion were around in the early closed BETA pre VR ranks.
Either way...that whole debacle was telling of the situation that exists today.

ZOS has the wrong people making decisions 3 years later.

Ravinsild · June 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

- CP tiers are now to somehow represent VR levels but they don't because anyone who had a mix of VR's now is promoted without adequate gear to a much higher CP (VR level)

I never did get a VR16 (the grind was too stronk, kept rerolling alts got them to VR7 or 8 max then rerolled more alts) and now this is the problem I'm having lol.

Remaking full sets of gear for all my CP160 characters (Like...5 or so?) I was not prepared!

I hadn't really gotten many of those VR16 materials (because I never farmed them because I was never that level) so now I am under-geared and under-materialed and poor xD

It's okay though. But this is a legitimate "problem".

The first time I tried to fight something I was like "WTF? Did they nerf my entire build!? Stam DK got super nerfed!?"

Well no. I was in a VR5 zone but the monsters were scaled to CP150 and I had on like CP40 (VR4) gear...so the disparity was apparent.

Uriel_Nocturne · June 2016

Ravinsild wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

- CP tiers are now to somehow represent VR levels but they don't because anyone who had a mix of VR's now is promoted without adequate gear to a much higher CP (VR level)

I never did get a VR16 (the grind was too stronk, kept rerolling alts got them to VR7 or 8 max then rerolled more alts) and now this is the problem I'm having lol.

Remaking full sets of gear for all my CP160 characters (Like...5 or so?) I was not prepared!

I hadn't really gotten many of those VR16 materials (because I never farmed them because I was never that level) so now I am under-geared and under-materialed and poor xD

It's okay though. But this is a legitimate "problem".

The first time I tried to fight something I was like "WTF? Did they nerf my entire build!? Stam DK got super nerfed!?"

Well no. I was in a VR5 zone but the monsters were scaled to CP150 and I had on like CP40 (VR4) gear...so the disparity was apparent.

There's going to be quite a few people feeling this pinch in the near future I think.

For myself, in another thread I posted about how I have two other characters aside form my Main who are going to be able to wear max gear once the Update hits.

To prepare, I went and crafted, then improved, then enchanted two full sets of gear and weapons at VR16 (soon to be CP160) gear/weapons. I used over 900+ Ancestor Silk for each character, blowing around 2000 pieces per character. The weapons were less of a hit, but they both dual wield, so I still used around 500 Rubedite Ingots to get them outfitted.

Newer players and players who haven't had the time/capability to farm that many materials are going to be stuck in a Crafting Mat pinch. I had at least ten stacks of everything Rubedo/Rubedite/Ancestor Silk/Ruby Ash, and I damn near depleted my stores of Ancestor Silk and Rubedite Ingots.

So, ever the opportunist; I've put a hold on Questing and Raiding, and now I farm my Dunmer buttcheeks off making new stacks of Crafting Mats of all types. Once I get 3-4 full stacks of any material, I put it up for sale.

Because after buying all of those Glyphs to enchant their gear (I have crap in Enchanting, mostly because it levels soooo ssssllllooooowwwwwlllllyyyyyy...), my Bank needs a bit of a refill as well.

But come the 14th, that should alleviate itself.