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Magicka Sorcerer in PvP - Moving Forward

gibous
gibous
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Emotions have been running high on the topic of damage shields ever since the DB patch hit. So many threads have popped up saying how sorc has been broken, and each of those threads fills up with people who agree, and those who lazily type "L2P" and think sorc got what was coming to them. It's not a very productive dialogue, so I am making this post in an attempt to take a larger look at the class to see if there's other ways of making the class balanced, interesting, and fun to play in pvp.

This is not an attempt at 100% objective analysis. I am writing from my point of view and playstyle of being a soloer and small group PvP'er. Regardless, I think I make valid points, raise interesting questions, and provide solid suggestions.

I will address all the sorc abilities - but first I think it's important to look at shields first since that is what everybody is fixated on.

Sorcerer and Shields

Up until now, what has been special about sorcs is that they've been able to shift between offensive and defensive phases, enabled by the stacking of damage shields. It used to also be the case that sorc had extraordinary mobility, but this has since been reduced to slightly above-average mobility due to numerous changes: Overall movement speed decrease, the decrease in speed bonus granted by major expedition, the stacking cost increase on streak, ubiquitous powerful snares, and the nerf of retreating maneuvers.

With a flattening of all damage shields to just 6 seconds (except for empowered ward) - stacking shields has really been minimized to the point of near irrelevance. In an average encounter, assuming a player has taken both hardened ward and a morph of annulment, the shields will overlap for only a few seconds before one wears off. This is a very tiny window to effectively absorb damage with both shields up. What tends to happen now is that a sorc buffs up with shields, engages in combat, one of the shields wears off while the sorc attempts to deal damage and then the sorc is open to being burst down. Previously, a sorc's shield came down due to receiving damage, not simply for running out of time. It's important to note that although annulment now also absorbs physical damage, it's a non-factor due to the minimal duration overlap.

So now with both reduced mobility, and minimized effectiveness of shield stacking - the sorcerer is a lot less special. Sorc damage remains competitive, but survivability is diminished.

I don't think we need to return to the old paradigm of stacking shields. I am not opposed to the fact that there was a change to shields. But I think the current solution was poorly conceived, because like so many others have noted - we now have a class ability that is available to all in generic form via annulment. Granted there are some minor advantages to conjured ward, but really so minor as to not even be notable.

What if we really thought differently about conjured ward? I keep seeing people simply asking for it to be returned to 20 seconds, or in even more desperate pleas, people saying "I would be happy if it was at least 10 seconds..."

Why not open up the gameplay by making conjured ward work more like how wards work in Skyrim (yes I am serious), where it is an active shield you cast in the same manner as blocking. Imagine that! A cross-pollination of two historically polar playstyles of magicka and stamina. My rough concept would look something like this: Magicka sorc casts conjured ward - no damage shield is directly applied to the character that will absorb damage - instead, the character can now press block to bring up a magical ward that works much in the same manner as a character blocking with a shield. While using this ward, magicka is drained instead of stamina as the shield takes hits. Now, the player must use their situational awareness to mitigate damage which involves a layer of skill compared to just repeatedly pressing 1 button to gain an absorb shield. Also, wouldn't this be more lore-friendly? I don't particularly care about that but I know a lot of other players do since this is an Elder Scrolls title.

I have also pondered the possibility of a different cross-pollination with stamina gameplay. What if a morph of conjured ward granted a 40-50% decrease in the cost of dodge-rolling for X seconds? Just because the game design has moved to eliminate hybrids shouldn't mean there can't still be some mixing of playstyles. Maybe this isn't the greatest idea, but it does remind me that I still do not understand why magicka builds are affected by the stacking increase of dodge-rolling. The cost increase should only apply if stamina is the max stat of the player. Even without the stacking increase, a magicka build can only roll a few times due to having a very small pool of 10-14k stam and poor stam regen on top of that. And unfortunately such stam issues cannot be mitigated alone by build variations.

A Look at Abilities

Dark Magic
  • Crystal Shard: It has been well-documented in these forums how bad the Crystal Blast morph is. I am actually astonished it has remained in the game. I cannot think of any situation where this would be preferable to Crystal Fragments. Damage in this game is heavily dependent on weaving basic attacks with skills, and you cannot do this with a hard cast time. Sometimes I see a player in Cyrodiil standing in a large unorganized group spamming Crystal Blast and it just fills me with sadness. If the decision between these morphs is to be higher single target damage vs AOE damage, allow crystal blast to also be intant-proc and work like a medium-range cone-AOE shotgun - like an actual "blast" of smaller crystal shards.
  • Encase: This ability has always felt like it doesn't work half the time. I don't have much to say about it other than the damage morph should deal damage on hit vs. when the effect ends. Restraining prison is the only sorc skill that has a debuffing secondary effect - of adding a snare - which is good except for the fact the skill feels unreliable.
  • Rune Prison: This ability is not really worth slotting since it does not have any secondary effects. I don't care for defensive rune because I like to control when the enemy is CC'ed since sorcerer damage is largely about correctly timing burst. I would consider this skill if it added some kind of debuff in addition to its primary function. Compare to Prolonged Suffering of the Nightblade which is as far as I know the same thing except it adds a DOT.
  • Dark Exchange: The recent change to this ability's values is good. It just needs to be instant cast instead of having a 1 second cast time. In the heat of combat it is a liability not a heal. With this ability being instant cast, there could be potential for not having to run resto staff for healing.
  • Daedric Mines: Always been a good skill worth slotting. The two morphs are interesting enough to choose between.

Daedric Summoning
  • Pets: As toggles, the sorc pets reduce the amount you can actively play your character using skills. For this reason alone I don't like them and never use them. I also understand there's all sorts of issues regarding their damage and AI, or lack thereof. Ideally these pets would be removed and replaced with better skills, but that's unlikely, so perhaps they should be made non-toggle abilities that are more easily cast and have a duration instead of hanging around indefinitely. This would allow players to use pets without giving up additional skill slots.
  • Daedric Curse: This skill is fine as-is.
  • Bound Armor: Another silly toggle that diminishes the player's experience of controlling their character. Yes it gives a lot of max magic, but the resistance buff is laughable. I would much prefer to see a Bound Axe or Bound Sword here. You see everywhere that the game community would like sorcerer to have a spammable class DPS option - well, it could be here. It could be close-medium range, maybe 7 meters - and not a spammable ranged attack. Could have both magicka and stam morphs. Would be lore-friendly. Why not? In my opinion, we don't need 2 spells that add magical armor - we already have Lighting Form and its morphs which is fine.
  • Conjured Ward: See dead horse above.

Storm Calling
  • Mage's Fury: The recent change to this ability is very good. This is now a useful execute that finally feels responsive. The choice between morphs however is underwhelming. I typically take the magicka return from Endless Fury because the splash damage on Mage's Wrath is low. I would much rather see more of a choice to make here. Consider for example - the Templar ability Solar Flare. When you morph that ability, you are given 2 very different choices. I'm not saying Solar Barrage is very good, but at least it is very different from Dark Flare. One of the fury morphs could be a short range chain-lightning that is not an execute. So many possibilities - I won't waste time by trying to write cute tooltips in the style ZOS has laid out - I'm merely pointing out this skill has a great opportunity to add a meaningful choice between morphs.
  • Lightning Form: I think this is a good ability as far as the magicka morph goes. I don't know much about the stam morph but it seems well-liked at the moment although not the type of ability stam sorcs have been looking for. I would only say if it were truly "Boundless" this ability would remove snares on cast.
  • Lightning Splash: This very well may be the greatest example of terrible choices between morphs. Very lazy design in my view. If you go to morph this ability, the 2 morph tooltips will read "Has increased radius" or "Has additional duration." I understand this is really a PvE skill to apply to monsters that are dumb to damage and simply just stand in it - but it would be nice if one morph had both an increased size AND duration, and the other morph was useful for PvP. Perhaps this other morph could be a chain-lightning type of skill or something else more dynamic.
  • Surge: This used to be a good source of healing and allowed for some interesting if not very popular builds that relied on it. My understanding is that the recent change makes it much less effective since it operates more like a HOT than a burst heal. I'm not aware why it was changed in the first place, did it need a cap on the amount it could heal? I really just don't know.
  • Bolt Escape: I think the stacking cost is fine. The main problem with this ability is how you lose forward momentum if you bolt escape to a lower elevation. Can you imagine if you jumped out of a moving train and just fell straight down landing on your feet? I don't understand why the character doesn't have a smoother curve of coming out of the air in a parabolic arc still moving forward. You used to be able to change directions while rooted but I don't mind that as much as the momentum thing. Ball of Lightning could use another second of duration on the ball, nobody uses it anymore. Or keep it shorter duration and let it absorb physical projectiles as well.

Ultimates
  • Negate: Both morphs are looking very good this patch. The ability to counter a large cluster of enemies stacked up is essential to group play. That is not my personal playstyle but I see how it's now a useful ultimate to slot.
  • Summon Storm Atronach: I like this ultimate, but the AOE morph of Charged Atronach just doesn't do enough damage in PvP. I have never died to Charged Atronach or know anybody that has in my 2 years of playing ESO. How about the Charged Atronach learn a thing or two from one of Molag Kena's - can it explode when killed for a lot of damage? Something like a vicious death proc. It would then feel like an ultimate instead of a skill you only use while grinding from levels 1-50. Greater atronach is pretty much fine as-is except he should be able to walk around slowly, like the Daedroth monster helm summon.
  • Overload: I dislike this ultimate. I dislike any ability that relies on or encourages spamming light attacks. As much as I hate shield breaker, I hate overload. So for the few trolls that have combined that set with using overload, just go to hell. Having access to a 3rd ability bar is the best part of this ult and is the sole reason why I slot it. Having said that, I also think it's unfair to the other classes. Why doesn't a single light overload attack fire when you press the ult key? In that case, you could also hold down the ult key for a heavy attack - even though overload heavy attack is horrible and leaves you open to an interrupt. I'd much rather see a single-use high damage ult here like an impressive bolt from a thundercloud that perhaps applies a shock DOT or a snare. If this is the "Storm Calling" line of magic, can we not call a freakin storm? I know this is what sorc relies on for PvE dps, but that just points out how sorc is coming up short in the rest of its abilities.

Passives
Dark Magic
  • Unholy Knowledge: Obviously great passive, reduces magicka/stam costs.
  • Blood Magic: Does not provide meaningful heals - if you removed this passive entirely it would not be noticed. Ideally would be reworked.
  • Persistence: I think this is an ok passive for the duration buff to negate, frags and mines. I don't think it matters as much for encase/rune prison and it doesn't seem to relate to dark exchange.
  • Exploitation: Spell crit buff is always good to have.

Daedric Summoning
  • Rebate: Silly passive because pets are silly.
  • Power Stone: Arguably one of best passives in the game.
  • Daedric Protection: Health regen bonus is meh because sorc is not really a tank-optimized class, but stam regen bonus is nice. However it ironically does a stam sorc no good because they don't use any daedric summoning abilities.
  • Expert Summoner: Again, pets are silly and no need for extra health.

Storm Calling
  • Capacitor: Great passive for giving magic regen.
  • Energized: Another good one, buff to damage for stam and magicka both.
  • Implosion: This is a poor passive. Please make this more like templar's Burning Light or just change it altogether. By the time an enemy is at 15% health, just about any normal attack will complete the kill without the help of this low proc passive damage. Maybe make it open to proccing when the enemy is at 50% health or lower, and decrease the amount of damage it can do.
  • Expert Mage: Very good passive increasing damage.

Conclusion

Changes like the ones I have suggested above would have the effect of opening up build opportunities and playstyles. As of right now, magicka sorcs are pigeonholed into a destruction/restoration setup, due to the lack of class abilities compatible with other weapons, specifically dual-wield and s&b. I think the community is in agreement that build diversity and "playing how you want" are good things for the game.

I really like this game and it's always so close to getting it right. I think that's why we all stick around throughout the lag, the bugs, imbalances and even full-on cheating as seen recently. I hope we can make an impression on the devs to fix this class to aid in improving the overall quality of the game.

TL;DR Sorc needs more build variety, gameplay options, and survivability without having to revert to the previous mechanic of stacking shields.
Reddington James — Magsorc & Magplar (NA PC)
  • Minalan
    Minalan
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    Fire Wrobel.

    Hire this guy.

  • Hyssia
    Hyssia
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    100% Agree - tell Zenimax to duel me if they turn this post down.

    Also bonus /tell from random guy in Cyrodiil

    [19:03] [******]: you have auto shield hack ffs uninstall noskill noob
  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    Stamina sorcs use bound armor... It's the only max stamina buff in the game plus the 20% stamina recovery and it's other bonuses.
  • covenant_merchant
    covenant_merchant
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    +1 purely for this thread to receive the attention it deserves.
    #makesorcsgreatagain
    #makeCyrodiilgreatagain
  • holosoul
    holosoul
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    So much truth.
  • Imryll
    Imryll
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    Thanks, OP, for your assessment. My sorcerers are too low level for me to have a real sense of whether or not the class is in an adequate (or even good) place, so it's very helpful to read an at least somewhat detached overview of our abilities. All the sky-is-falling posts have been anxiety-inducing without containing much actual substance. :)
  • RebornV3x
    RebornV3x
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    Very nice thread everything seems pretty reasonable
    I really wish they would get rid of pet summons too.
    Edited by RebornV3x on June 7, 2016 6:57AM
    Xbox One - NA GT: RebornV3x
    I also play on PC from time to time but I just wanna be left alone on there so sorry.
  • Dyride
    Dyride
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    Summoning should have been a world skill line.
    V Є H Є M Є И C Є
      Ḍ̼̭͔yride

      Revenge of the Bear

      ØMNI
      Solongandthanksforallthef
      Revenge of the Hist
      Revenge of the Deer


      Remember the Great Burn of of the Blackwater War!


      #FreeArgonia
    1. Yolokin_Swagonborn
      Yolokin_Swagonborn
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      Xsorus wrote: »
      Stamina sorcs use bound armor... It's the only max stamina buff in the game plus the 20% stamina recovery and it's other bonuses.

      Stamina Sorcs wish they could use bound armor but most find that the opportunity cost is too high and that they have to slot too many non-class weapon and heal spells that double barring bound armor just isn't feasible, if you want to have reasonable utility and damage output.

      It would be SO EASY for ZOS to give this skill the magelight treatment so that BA grants the % Max stam and armor passively.
    2. gibous
      gibous
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      Xsorus wrote: »
      Stamina sorcs use bound armor... It's the only max stamina buff in the game plus the 20% stamina recovery and it's other bonuses.

      Stamina Sorcs wish they could use bound armor but most find that the opportunity cost is too high and that they have to slot too many non-class weapon and heal spells that double barring bound armor just isn't feasible, if you want to have reasonable utility and damage output.

      It would be SO EASY for ZOS to give this skill the magelight treatment so that BA grants the % Max stam and armor passively.

      Yes exactly - toggles are bad because they limit the amount you can play your character by occupying an additional slot unnecessarily. Compare against Relentless Focus of the Nightblade, which does 3 things: 1) Grants 8% damage buff, 2) 10% stamina regen buff, and 3) turns into damage ability after 4 basic attacks.
      Edited by gibous on June 7, 2016 4:54PM
      Reddington James — Magsorc & Magplar (NA PC)
    3. bitaken
      bitaken
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      I like your suggestions. All the shield changes really did was directly effect Sorceror's magicka pools. I just find that I am low on magicka all the time now - and while I do not stack a whole lot of regen - 1590 is non CP - 1780 in CP - I knew this was going to be the case. Duration nerf just made it so that we have to recast shields pretty much all the time and while we are still able to do a reasonable job in PvP....this was a massive nerf to PBAOE sorc's.

      I can range people down just the same as always - kite as usual - and survive reasonably well in our 5-10 man groups. However, the ability to recast shields when needed is missed dearly.

      IF this is how it's going to be something has to be given back. My original suggestion was that the magicka cost of ward should go down in relation to the duration - knowing the struggle with regen was going to be real after this patch. However, there are some of your trade offs I would take in exchange.

      PvP Lead Officer for Einherjar

      Member of Einherjar and associated guilds since 2001

      A multi Gaming community of players.
    4. DHale
      DHale
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      It took me over 3 hours to clear my kill sorc quest in tru flame last night about nine minutes to clear dks and 15 minutes for night blades and 20 minutes for Templars. The sorc population dropped like a stone as I expected. The Sorcs I did see were sad remnantsof their former glory. RIP Sorcs mine makes a wonderful crafter I took all of her armor and put some on my Templar and some on my dk.
      Edited by DHale on June 8, 2016 4:23AM
      Sorcerna, proud beta sorc. RIP April 2014 to May 31 2016 DArk Brotherhood. Out of retirement for negates and encases. Sorcerna will be going back into retirement to be my main crafter Fall 2018. Because an 8 k shield is f ing useless. Died because of baddies on the forum. Too much qq too little pew pew. 16 AD 2 DC. 0 EP cause they bad, CP 2300 plus 18 level 50 toons. NA, PC, Grey Host#SORCLIVESMATTER actually they don’t or they wouldn’t keep getting nerfed constantly.
    5. ForsakenSin
      ForsakenSin
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      DHale wrote: »
      It took me over 3 hours to clear my kill sorc quest in tru flame last night about nine minutes to clear dks and 15 minutes for night blades and 20 minutes for Templars. The sorc population dropped like a stone as I expected. The Sorcs I did see were sad remnantsof their former glory. RIP Sorcs mine makes a wonderful crafter I took all of her armor and put some on my Templar and some on my dk.



      Its sad because that is what i am doing when DLC drops going to my new Magtemp

      "By many i am seen as hero...as a savior of the Tamriel i will not stop until every Daedra every evil there is in Tamriel is vanquish by my hands..
      However i do this for my own purpose to gain trust of mortals to worship me and to eliminate my competition i will not bend my knee to lead your army to serve you Molag Bal , i will simply just take it from you.."--- Forsaken Sin( Magica Sorc)



      Arise From Darkness Forsaken SIn
      "You have been a loyal High Elf Magica Sorc
      Conjure of Darkness, Master of Magic
      Killer of Molag Bal and Savior of Ebonheart Pact
      Until Dark Brotherhood killed you...
      but now..NOW its time to Arise From Darkness once again..."

    6. lygerseye
      lygerseye
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      Still running my Sorc in PVP; caught myself being surprised last night when I saw someone bolt escape past me. "Hey! Another Sorc! Wait... Stop! Wanna hangout?!"
    7. ForsakenSin
      ForsakenSin
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      lygerseye wrote: »
      Still running my Sorc in PVP; caught myself being surprised last night when I saw someone bolt escape past me. "Hey! Another Sorc! Wait... Stop! Wanna hangout?!"



      i can imagine what he was thinking " get away get away need to run away !!!!!!! BOLT ESCAPE YOU FOOL"
      "By many i am seen as hero...as a savior of the Tamriel i will not stop until every Daedra every evil there is in Tamriel is vanquish by my hands..
      However i do this for my own purpose to gain trust of mortals to worship me and to eliminate my competition i will not bend my knee to lead your army to serve you Molag Bal , i will simply just take it from you.."--- Forsaken Sin( Magica Sorc)



      Arise From Darkness Forsaken SIn
      "You have been a loyal High Elf Magica Sorc
      Conjure of Darkness, Master of Magic
      Killer of Molag Bal and Savior of Ebonheart Pact
      Until Dark Brotherhood killed you...
      but now..NOW its time to Arise From Darkness once again..."

    8. NativeJoe
      NativeJoe
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      Just throwing it out there...but I'm a pet sorc. lol...

      https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks/v/71239630
      ^~some gameplay~^
      And we're an endangered species at this point.
      It's getting sad out there. the more I play, the less sorcs I see.

      Sad thing is... the few of us left representing sorcs are the last of the elites...and this will no doubt lead to further nerfs to the class x.x as people complain that we arn't laying down and dying.
      650cp+ Sorcerer 100+ days /played
      Broken'Stick North American Server
      https://www.twitch.tv/trixytricks
    9. Lord-Stien
      Lord-Stien
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      lygerseye wrote: »
      Still running my Sorc in PVP; caught myself being surprised last night when I saw someone bolt escape past me. "Hey! Another Sorc! Wait... Stop! Wanna hangout?!"



      i can imagine what he was thinking " get away get away need to run away !!!!!!! BOLT ESCAPE YOU FOOL"

      lol that me every time i see a sorc... ( Hey wana be freinds!?!?!?!?!?
      Sometimes the real enemy are the one who moderate it.

      BannHammer

      PVP Officer

      Alliance Cord

      When in doubt, frag out

      Heart of Daggerfall-=Iron Legion=- Founding Member



      The one and only LordSteindeath
    10. KenaPKK
      KenaPKK
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      Red, you're one of the 5 "god sorcs" on the NA server in my eyes -- easily one of the most qualified players to comment on sorc balance, and I am pleased to see such a well thought out post from you on the subject. I will have to revisit this thread once I've slept.

      +1
      Kena
      Former Class Rep
      Former Legend GM
      Theorycrafter
      Beta player

      youtube.com/@KenaPKK (inactive)
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