New character passive system: A proposal.

Phinix1 · June 2016

First, I want to start by saying I get it. Racial passives have been "a thing" since the early days of pencil and paper D&D. However, it is also true that not all things are good simply by virtue of having been done a certain way for "a really long time." This is certainly not the case in new and completely different context, like a modern MMO.

While I can respect the design of the developers to maintain character identity, I believe that both the idea and implementation of racial passives is a terrible way to go about this. Where the idea may have started as a way to diversify the player base and encourage people to play other races and factions, it has ended up being a min/max nightmare where you are basically forced into playing a certain "OP stamina" or "OP magicka" race just to be competitive at a target build.

Furthermore, the addition of cross-faction dungeons and groups and removal of veteran rank limits on zone exploration eliminates the reasoning that led to the adoption of the current system. I therefore would like to propose the following alternative/overhaul:

Character Trait Respec:

First and foremost, all races would begin with the existing passives as they are currently assigned. After a given "tier" (there are four tiers of racial passives for each race) is fully maxed in skill points, a player would have the option of visiting a retraining shrine to choose new assignments for each of these trees, for an associated cost per point invested.

Here are the four tiers and their respective options, along with the proposed cost to respec:

Tier 1 - Weapon/Armor Training Traits (3k gold to reset):

Details (from left to right):

Light Armor Affinity:
Increase XP gain in light armor skill line.

Heavy Armor Expertise:
Increase XP gain in heavy armor skill line.

Shield Affinity:
Increase XP gain in 1h/shield skill line.

Destruction Talent:
Increase XP gain in destruction staff skill line.

Archery Expert:
Increase XP gain in bow skill line.

Medium Armor Expertise:
Increase XP gain in medium armor skill line.

Restoration Expertise:
Increase XP gain in restoration staff skill line.

Ambidexterity:
Increase XP gain in dual wield skill line.

Two Handed Weapon Expertise:
Increase XP gain in two handed skill line.

Tier 2 - Minor Character Traits (5k gold per point to reset):

Details (from left to right):

Gift of Magnus:
Increase max magicka.

Brawny:
Increase health recovery.

Exhilaration/Y'ffre's Endurance:
Increase stamina regeneration.

Spellcharge:
Increase magicka recovery.

Robust Constitution:
Increase health and stamina recovery.

Amphibious:
Increase swim speed and potion use stat buff.

Dynamic:
Increase max magicka and max stamina.

Robust:
Increase health recovery.

Tough:
Increase max health.

Tier 3 - Lesser Character Traits (10k gold per point to reset):

Details (from left to right):

Spell Resistance:
Increase spell resistance.

Robust:
Increase health recovery.

Conditioning:
Increase max stamina.

Gift of Magnus:
Increase max magicka.

Resist Affliction:
Increase poison and disease resistance.

Argonian Resistance:
Increase max health and increase poison and disease resistance.

Stealthy:
Decrease stealth radius and increase stealth damage.

Resist Flame:
Increase flame resistance.

Resist Frost:
Increase frost resistance.

Tier 4 - Major Character Traits (15k gold per point to reset):

Details (from left to right):

Magicka Mastery:
Reduces the magicka cost of spells.

Swift:
Reduce sprint cost and increase sprint speed. Increase charge attack damage.

Adrenaline Rush:
Restore stamina when damaging an enemy in melee.

Elemental Talent:
Increase frost, fire, and shock damage.

Stealthy:
Decrease stealth radius and increase stealth damage.

Carnage:
Increase weapon crit chance.

Quick to Mend:
Increase healing received.

Flame Talent:
Increase flame damage.

Rugged:
Reduce incoming damage.

Red Diamond:
Restore health when damaging an enemy in melee.

Restrictions:

As mentioned previously you must level up enough to max out a given tier before you can respec. In addition to the gold cost, there would also be an exclusivity limit to prevent the same skill (Robust for example) from being selected for multiple tiers, where the option to do so exists.

Character Identity and Role Play:

I believe this is a much more natural and realistic way to handle these bonuses, and opens up the freedom to choose a race you like for looks, not for rigid OP passives. It makes no sense for example that a Breton Nightblade couldn't spend her life training to become proficient with blades, and gain an Adrenaline Rush when attacking in Melee. Are Redguards the only race that produces adrenaline? Do all other races of Nirn lack an adrenaline g land?

The same applies to all these passives. A character's unique identity should be specific to that CHARACTER, not their race, sex, religion, or anything else.

I believe this would add a richness and freedom to the game that is sorely needed in a franchise steeped in RPG potential.

All constructive input is welcome!

Turelus · June 2016

I'm one of those old school gamers who likes racial passives and racial diversity and would as such like to see things as is.

Sadly these days people play RPG games to "win" rather than enjoyment of the gameplay. With an MMO offering more competitive play options like PvP and PvE leaderboards I understand peoples desire to min/max everything.

It might be a bit of an extreme reaction but if ZOS went down the path of homogenisation of race and stripping what makes each one unique from them I would probably start to move away from this game.

We also have racial change coming which means players unhappy with their initial choice have the chance to change and min/max without a reroll. Even rerolls are not as challenging now because of VR removal.

Phinix1 · June 2016

Turelus wrote: »

I'm one of those old school gamers who likes racial passives and racial diversity and would as such like to see things as is.

Sadly these days people play RPG games to "win" rather than enjoyment of the gameplay. With an MMO offering more competitive play options like PvP and PvE leaderboards I understand peoples desire to min/max everything.

I am with you here. However I think that is only one potential reason why people would want to do this.

Turelus wrote: »

It might be a bit of an extreme reaction but if ZOS went down the path of homogenisation of race and stripping what makes each one unique from them I would probably start to move away from this game.

Here is where you lose me. How something like this could be seen in so negative a light as to drive someone away from the entire game? I mean really, you would have to be already just teetering on the edge waiting for an excuse.

With all due respect I believe you are simply looking at this the wrong way. Instead of looking at it taking something away and "homogenizing races," why not look at it as a way to further customize a CHARACTER with the specific traits and abilities that best suit their BACK STORY?

Like I mentioned above, there is no reason a Breton that spent her life training with blades should be any less proficient than someone who just happened to be born with darker skin. The whole concept of racial differentiation on such fundamental levels is rather absurd, to my way of thinking.

To each his own.

As I said, all races would start with the existing pre-conditions. So you would still have the option to remain "pure" to your racial archetype. I mean if we were really going to be so extreme about it, Altmer wouldn't be able to use stamina weapons, Redguard wouldn't be able to be Sorcerers, etc.

As Jean Luc Picard would say, "I don't see why we have to lose anything, simply by adding a convenience."

Food for thought.

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2016

I was hoping the champion system would have been a great way to dilute the effects of the Racial Passives, thereby balancing them against one another.

Phinix1 · June 2016

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I was hoping the champion system would have been a great way to dilute the effects of the Racial Passives, thereby balancing them against one another.

It does to a very limited extent. However, with investment of 50+ in a single CP passive to equal one single racial passive, and there being no CP equivalent to ridiculously OP racial passives like Redguard Adrenaline Rush, the result is that racials really still make way more difference to build viability than they should.

holosoul · June 2016

I always thought this way, about both racials and class traits. You should be able to pick a tree and lock into it, and if you want to change it, cool. It would preserve the class balance by letting you only have 1 pool of those skills at a time, so you couldn't have both cloak and major mending for example (that's trolling [not anymore], don't get mad)

So if you originally made a redguard DK, maybe one day you want to try magicka you could pick the current 'altmer' passives tree and the 'NB' tree, and start with 0 exp in the tree if you haven't leveled those skills before and otherwise play as a magicka NB.

It's just skill trees, don't know why some people throw fits about this topic when it could make the game so much more fun and deep.

SanTii.92 · June 2016

Hey @Phinix1 I really like this idea, but here are my suggestions. First, I don't think there is any need to make races to start with the current passives, just let them choose them as they level. Also, tied to this, respec should be really expensive, and resetting all passives, like 150k or so. After all you are changing your character's whole character.

Secondly, I'd limit choices for every race. For two reasons, most importantly race diversification. Out of the ten passives from each tier, every race would have 6 or 7 unique choices, room for every role, but keeping the meaning of race choice.
Second reason could be balance porpoise, locking certain powerful combinations could help with power creep and would tune down current level somewhat.

Anyways, great idea!

dodgehopper_ESO · June 2016

Phinix1 wrote: »

dodgehopper_ESO wrote: »

I was hoping the champion system would have been a great way to dilute the effects of the Racial Passives, thereby balancing them against one another.

It does to a very limited extent. However, with investment of 50+ in a single CP passive to equal one single racial passive, and there being no CP equivalent to ridiculously OP racial passives like Redguard Adrenaline Rush, the result is that racials really still make way more difference to build viability than they should.

The issue is diminishing returns as I see it.

SlayerTheDragon · June 2016

Anything else would be better than it is now.

A Breton and Altmer will always have 10% more magicka than other races. At 35k -40k magicka it is noticeable.

STEVIL · June 2016

Phinix1 wrote: »

Like I mentioned above, there is no reason a Breton that spent her life training with blades should be any less proficient than someone who just happened to be born with darker skin. The whole concept of racial differentiation on such fundamental levels is rather absurd, to my way of thinking.

Nice packaging but lets face it, it is packaging.

Your proposal does not support the breton life training model. If this is an exsmple of your proposal goal, it fails.

But its not. Its just better marketing than saying "i want to minmax cherry pick my racial passives."

How do i know this?

Because ANYONE serious about the breton devotes life to blades model would not propose a "respec racials for gold" approach.

Now iirc it was limited. You have to be end game to reset all and ypu have to spend gold (end game easiest to acwuire resource) both of which serve well the end game minmax model as opposed to the "lifetime achievement."

Also, kudos for packaging real world skin color notns to leverage your argument. Many people might avoid comnenting that this AINT REAL WORLD and racial selection in ESO might be realky morevthsn skin deep.

To go for a model that supports "lifetime achievement" instead of "endgame minmax respec" the proposal might hsve looked like this:
At outset choose PARENTS which unlicks some posdible passives but locks out others and may limit some to minor at most.
Then choose BIRTHPLACE which is actually early environment which unlocks, locks, limits certain passives.
Then choise FACTION which is main cultural environment: unlocks, locks restricts etc.
Then choose EDUCATION which is young adult aporenticeship or career which... you got the drill by now, right.

So by the time you actually CHOSE YOUR LIFETIME PATH, a series of if-then logical connection has formed a mixed bag of passives for you to advance that can never be changed and isnt going to be an optimized minmaxed blah blah in most cases.

Its may however produce a framework of who your character is snd their strengths and weaknesses to present you with now working out what to do with what you got.

If, this assumes, the goal isnt reducing race to "endgame minmax" but instead msking race more reflective of lifetime choices, that is to say.

I always viewed the RACE selection as the foundation for the character. Its the starting point of who you are, what you are and where you came from that you then take forward into "how do i get things done with what i got" rest of the game.
Its why i generally oppose the endgame race respec often sought by the minmaxers, regardless of the style of sheep's clothing they hide it under.

Hibbou · June 2016

I like the Idea, but no respec, maybe at charachter creation, but if you could respec it as much as you want, than eso would become a P2W

and I don t think it is realisable considering that races specifics was always a big part in ESs, didn't affect much in the earlyer episodes, but that takes all it sense in an MMO, and to finish, i think that it would sort of destroy the only build diversity left.

what could work would be instead of races passives, turn it to classes passives, DK would have health bonuses, NB stam bonuses, sorc magicka and temp a sort of mix of that

Rune_Relic · June 2016

All they need to do is significantly tone down the amplitude of the racial passives.
For those min maxers that want 1%...fine...makes little difference to everyone else.
For those role players in character...fine...you arent gimping yourself.

Love to know who the fool was that decided to make a roleplay vanity item inito an essential min/max requirement

Sethro_27 · June 2016

Turelus wrote: »

I'm one of those old school gamers who likes racial passives and racial diversity and would as such like to see things as is.

Sadly these days people play RPG games to "win" rather than enjoyment of the gameplay. With an MMO offering more competitive play options like PvP and PvE leaderboards I understand peoples desire to min/max everything.

It might be a bit of an extreme reaction but if ZOS went down the path of homogenisation of race and stripping what makes each one unique from them I would probably start to move away from this game.

We also have racial change coming which means players unhappy with their initial choice have the chance to change and min/max without a reroll. Even rerolls are not as challenging now because of VR removal.

Well thats why we cant play cause the people trying to have fun are getting their time ruined by the people playing to min\max builds.

Sethro_27 · June 2016

SlayerTheDragon wrote: »

Anything else would be better than it is now.

A Breton and Altmer will always have 10% more magicka than other races. At 35k -40k magicka it is noticeable.

Ding ding ding!

Sethro_27 · June 2016

If you could play any way you wanted in the other games in the series i dont see why itd be a problem tobdo it on the online game and let everyone emulate their character the way that they want.

holosoul · June 2016

You can't be expected to know before you've ever played the game what the passives are in detail or how they affect the end game, and since this is a game you shouldn't be punished for your choice (edit: in the sense that no race/class should be a punishment), it's simply not fun. If you don't like racial respec then just don't do it, why do some seem so intent to impose their discomfort on others?

It makes no difference to me because for example, I already have both an imperial and an altmer vet sorc.
I honestly just think the people opposed to race change are selfish control freaks who want to make the game less fun.

SJD_Phoenix · June 2016

Wait, You want to redreduce min/maxing by letting people chose their racial passive?

Anyone else see flaws in this?

Solariken · June 2016

Yes, I support your suggestion, OP. There should not be a race change feature in this game (because it would be lore-breaking and nonsensical) but I agree there should be a re-training/re-speccing of passives.

To take it further, rigid classes should be removed at level 50 and allow players to specialize into 3 class skill lines of their choosing. If any MMO should have been without rigid classes, it was ESO. I will continue to be pissed about this until the day I stop playing.

Sethro_27 · June 2016

SJD_Phoenix wrote: »

Wait, You want to redreduce min/maxing by letting people chose their racial passive?

Anyone else see flaws in this?

Id see not a whole lot of tanks and healers anymore and i think thats the problem they wanna avoid.
I just think anyone should play the way they want to with the character race they want iinstead of certain op races. Your gonna get through a dungeon better with certain races too just not pvp.

AlnilamE · June 2016

Rune_Relic wrote: »

All they need to do is significantly tone down the amplitude of the racial passives.
For those min maxers that want 1%...fine...makes little difference to everyone else.
For those role players in character...fine...you arent gimping yourself.

Love to know who the fool was that decided to make a roleplay vanity item inito an essential min/max requirement

I agree. Just cut them all by at least half. (Except for swim speed! I

my swim speed)

Racial traits have always been an Elder Scrolls thing, so it's not surprising. And before they removed soft caps, they were not as important.

The idea of picking racial traits at will just rubs me the wrong way. And I say that as someone who probably doesn't have a single character that fits the "min/max meta" and yet is able to enjoy the content.

Drazorious · June 2016

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom I think this would be awesome

idk · June 2016

OP. Zos has already stated they will make available racial passives change. However, they will not use your suggestion.

1. expext it to cost crowns. Same with barber shop.
2. Zos has stated we cannot pick and choose. We can choose the redguard passives or the high elf passives but cannot choose one from each.
3. Changing passives will not change appearance (though I would not be surprised if they offered a bundle of the two in the crown shop.

SJD_Phoenix · June 2016

Sethro_27 wrote: »

SJD_Phoenix wrote: »

Wait, You want to redreduce min/maxing by letting people chose their racial passive?

Anyone else see flaws in this?

Id see not a whole lot of tanks and healers anymore and i think thats the problem they wanna avoid.
I just think anyone should play the way they want to with the character race they want iinstead of certain op races. Your gonna get through a dungeon better with certain races too just not pvp.

Every magicka character with a maelstrom destro would just stack max mag, max mag and elemental expert. You'd get diverse races as far as aesthetics but that would be it. Everyone would run the same passives to be optimum.

The current race layout is pretty balanced tbf, my only gripe would be there's more choices for more stam based chars than magic based. That just means they need to look at a few racial passives, not all.

This game isn't that difficult to re-roll new characters so I don't understand people complaining that they chose the wrong race.

DaniAngione · June 2016

Not all racial passives are consequences of "training" and such.
Argonians swim faster because they're argonians, for example. They swim abnormally faster than well trained "human" swimmers.

So although I do agree that a lot of rebalancing and such should be given to the racial passives, especially because of the build-focusing thing (not that I ever cared about it, to be honest, I couldn't care less about numbers or being "competitive" - but I understand people that do) I still think that each race should have an "unique" trait that could be - yeah - mostly cosmetic but also kind of useful.

For example, a trait that is not in the game but could be cool: Khajiit's night sight.
Argonian swimming speed, etc... This kind of trait would be nice to keep and add to each race - and leave the "gameplay builds changing" traits to a more flexible system.

AshTal · June 2016

I like this idea. I love Argonian's but even though we were told in open Beta "Argonian passives are know to be the weakest and far below the levels of many other species, we will get this address before live" we had nothing for a year and a half, then we had a tiny increase to our racials which still leave them weak, I mean come on Amphibious sucks. Anything where I can dump a small increase to healing and a heal when I drink a potion is welcome by me.

Taleof2Cities · June 2016

Great ideas ...

... just be prepared for the incoming camp of comments such as "What if you ignore min/maxing and just play the race you want to play?"

I agree on your initial comments about the missing RPG elements in the game (was a hot topic before beta and release). Consequently, we have this rigid list of passives ... instead of racial traits and attributes that each character could develop (regardless of race).

One of the few areas that Oblivion is better than ESO. In Oblivion, you could take even the dumbest of Nords, build up their intelligence attribute passives ... and eventually make them into a viable magic user.

Not sure how the devs would be able to digest the complex balancing issues related to this suggestion ... but putting it in the forums is a good start.

+1

AugustoCP · June 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

OP. Zos has already stated they will make available racial passives change. However, they will not use your suggestion.

1. expext it to cost crowns. Same with barber shop.
2. Zos has stated we cannot pick and choose. We can choose the redguard passives or the high elf passives but cannot choose one from each.
3. Changing passives will not change appearance (though I would not be surprised if they offered a bundle of the two in the crown shop.

Woah. You got a source for that? If you do, you just made me the happiest Breton in Tamriel.

Rune_Relic · June 2016

AlnilamE wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

All they need to do is significantly tone down the amplitude of the racial passives.
For those min maxers that want 1%...fine...makes little difference to everyone else.
For those role players in character...fine...you arent gimping yourself.

Love to know who the fool was that decided to make a roleplay vanity item inito an essential min/max requirement

I agree. Just cut them all by at least half. (Except for swim speed! I my swim speed)

Racial traits have always been an Elder Scrolls thing, so it's not surprising. And before they removed soft caps, they were not as important.

The idea of picking racial traits at will just rubs me the wrong way. And I say that as someone who probably doesn't have a single character that fits the "min/max meta" and yet is able to enjoy the content.

Of course you can keep your swim speed.

Swimming across the lake isnt really a combat necessity at the end of the day.
If only all such racial passives were so irrelevant but useful.