ZOS should've done this instead of nerfing ICP,WGT,&VCOA.

MaxwellC · June 2016

Now many people agree (at-least from what I've seen/heard) that these dungeons aren't difficult the only issue is the learning curve and gear/build setups. Some people will disagree and say the dungeon is hard and needed to be nerf and to those people I say It most definitely isn't. Yesterday I showered two players how to do WGT while I tanked the boss (towards the end I needed to DPS since the DPS didn't have a optimal gear setup). It was a struggle on inhibitor after I showed ways to go about doing the boss mechanics and kena was a struggle until I went and explained the fight in greater detail, of course we did wipe a few times but after they got it, it was like sailing through a storm and while not being capsized.

The Point
People lack knowledge about these dungeons and their build but then scream it needs/needed to be nerf'd when in actuality all they needed was a person to show them the ropes and provide advice on their build whether it be attribute allotments,traits on gear, skill rotations,etc. ZOS boasts about it's community but couldn't do what would've been possible and maybe we the community should've put this together but why not have a type of 'play date'. ZOS would make an official post on the forums whether it be General Discussion for more looks, or in it's group dungeon forum that would break it's rule (showing player names) and provide names based on volunteering of those who would be willing to teach the mechanics/provide advice.

The Idea
As I stated above why not host some sort of day(s) where players would volunteer offering advice and teaching the mechanics of the dungeons. Players would post their name on the forum and what role they can play, there server location, availability, and alliance; after all is done ZOS would categorize all of the players by alliance and people could message for an invite. When people join, said players will talk about their builds to the player hosting the dungeon and the host can give information before heading to it. This in my opinion would've/could've brought a large number of completions instead of dimming down the content for players who wanted/want a challenging delve because as of now there really isn't any available before or after the patch.

-Thoughts?

Turelus · June 2016

Sure this would work if everyone in the community was interested in helping new players learn rather than waving their epeens around because they're beating the content others need to L2P to beat.

MaxwellC · June 2016

I'm quite sure there's a few volunteers around, I do it every so often if I'm not in a rush to do things.

phaneub17_ESO · June 2016

A very small fraction of the player base ever visits the forums. You would also get a lot of trolls on both ends of the spectrum, those saying they'll teach and those saying they'll learn then do whatever they can to make it go as wrong as possible.

NewBlacksmurf · June 2016

To be 100% honest, the idea is solid however the website and forums isnt where this info needs to sit.

In prior threads I've often suggested that
-patch notes
-maintenance updates
-How to videos
-In-game events
-ESO Live recordings

These things should be IN THE ACTUAL GAME in the UI.
so in a normal way, a few photos with text info should exist for any and all dungeons, trials and basic gameplay.

I don't think that by default a spoiler should appear but in the UI a description with boss photo of an in-game feature followed by photos of each ability and what it does to the player or the room/environment.

Then you have another part locked as a spoiler which once you defeat the boss, that is unlocked so you can read it and refer back to it which has more of a "how to be successful" per ZOS feel to it.

again, nothing is perfect but this offers opportunities for players who choose to look it up, to have the info.
website guides are fine but as a company, sometimes you need to take logic based things upon yourself if you see the topics or feedback over and over again.
OR
If you see complaints and find yourself making adjustment after adjustment because....it was tested before release right?

example photos form a well known game that should be considered as a guide:
latest?cb=20110619181709

MaxwellC · June 2016

You could link an announcement to the main menu (the menu where you choose your server) and I'm sure you could/would get trolls but I doubt it'll be a large scale problem.

Rev Rielle · June 2016

Honestly, that sort of thing should be going on all the time, not only occasionally/rarely.
The fact that it isn't is disappointing really and speaks volumes about the community.

Everyone had to learn the dungeon at one point in time, those that do and then turn around later and give grief to new players are the same ones that whine that it's not too hard and shouldn't be re-balanced. They're the cause of the problem in the first place. It's just such a shame they can't see it.

The game's difficult is only a problem due to the way the community as a whole acts. They've brought this largely on themselves.

emily3989 · June 2016

Everquest 2 had something similar, a guy in my guild did it. He was what they called a "Guide" where he would show other players around content while teaching them the game. He put in a few hours a week, or whatever, and got a free sub out of it.

Bfish22090 · June 2016

its way too easy, complete faceroll now.
you can afk and watch youtube and not worry about wiping to the bosses

hrothbern · June 2016

emily3989 wrote: »

Everquest 2 had something similar, a guy in my guild did it. He was what they called a "Guide" where he would show other players around content while teaching them the game. He put in a few hours a week, or whatever, and got a free sub out of it.

Perhaps the "Guide" should be formalised to a title in ESO.
Like Community Ambassador here on the forum.

You get it by recommendation from players.
It should be a visible title in the UI.
It should help L2P players to accept that what he says is valuable and needs to be done.

flguy147ub17_ESO · June 2016

The CP system makes it impossible to balance content. You have to balance for people with 1 CP with green gear and players with 501 CP with gold gear. Both are endgame players but the different in the strength of these players is so out of wack its hilarious. Add in the skill factor too and its more out of wack. CP system = worst progression system i have played in a MMO.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · June 2016

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

Now many people agree (at-least from what I've seen/heard) that these dungeons aren't difficult the only issue is the learning curve and gear/build setups. Some people will disagree and say the dungeon is hard and needed to be nerf and to those people I say It most definitely isn't. Yesterday I showered two players how to do WGT while I tanked the boss (towards the end I needed to DPS since the DPS didn't have a optimal gear setup). It was a struggle on inhibitor after I showed ways to go about doing the boss mechanics and kena was a struggle until I went and explained the fight in greater detail, of course we did wipe a few times but after they got it, it was like sailing through a storm and while not being capsized.

The Point
People lack knowledge about these dungeons and their build but then scream it needs/needed to be nerf'd when in actuality all they needed was a person to show them the ropes and provide advice on their build whether it be attribute allotments,traits on gear, skill rotations,etc. ZOS boasts about it's community but couldn't do what would've been possible and maybe we the community should've put this together but why not have a type of 'play date'. ZOS would make an official post on the forums whether it be General Discussion for more looks, or in it's group dungeon forum that would break it's rule (showing player names) and provide names based on volunteering of those who would be willing to teach the mechanics/provide advice.

The Idea
As I stated above why not host some sort of day(s) where players would volunteer offering advice and teaching the mechanics of the dungeons. Players would post their name on the forum and what role they can play, there server location, availability, and alliance; after all is done ZOS would categorize all of the players by alliance and people could message for an invite. When people join, said players will talk about their builds to the player hosting the dungeon and the host can give information before heading to it. This in my opinion would've/could've brought a large number of completions instead of dimming down the content for players who wanted/want a challenging delve because as of now there really isn't any available before or after the patch.

-Thoughts?

I agree with the op to a degree people need to be patincent and the idea of the training lesson is ok ( i do this in my guild teach dungeons) but and its a big but, then in where the op said provide advice on their build whether it be attribute allotments,traits on gear, skill rotations,etc, in my eyes is a big no no. It is saying you must have this and that if you want to get high end groups etc. Its fine to teach dungeon machinics but to say you must have certain attribute allotments,traits on gear, skill rotations is a form of eliteism, which is a route we do not want to go, i had that in wow and it was not good. The build is personal to how the player plays, personal i have several builds that do over 50k damage that i learned my self

Autolycus · June 2016

This information, if produced and released by ZOS, should be done formally and not on these pages. It should be hosted in its own section with all other how-to and beginner guides.

As a side note, what you're describing here is basically what it means to be in a guild. Being a part of a guild, in most cases, affords you the privilege (and often times the right) to participate in content with people who are willing to take their time and teach it. This coincides with the norm, in which players who are inexperienced or undergeared are typically lone wolves. In other words, usually players who struggle with these dungeons are players who have chosen (or otherwise forced) to go at it via pug groups or dungeon finder.

Joining a guild is, and always has been, the most effective way to learn, gear up, and make friends.

MaxwellC · June 2016

@alainjbrennanb16_ESO I couldn't disagree more, teaching players proper gear for dungeons and PvE in general isn't a form of elitism. Elitism in it's self is those who feel they need top tier high end gear to complete dungeons alongside max CP; I for one say no to both.

If I go over a rotation that I use to a player they can pick and choose thing from what I said to incoporate that in their rotation. Armor wise I've had a tank who wore impen armor to a dungeon and thought it was ok which it most certainty isn't especially when it was the willow paths set. I've had stamina DPS who would slot 30 in health 20 in magicka and 10 in stamina before too and that my friend isn't good especially if you're a DPS trying to deal the most damage as possible

rhapsodious · June 2016

Recommending gear or skills is fine, but insisting that there is the One True Way is not. I really do think that most players fall towards the former end of the spectrum. And there's also the whole thing where certain things are recommended because, well, they work.

For example, I'm sure you could defeat the Engine Guardian with melee, but it's a much better/more effective idea to go ranged. I wouldn't kick someone for insisting they go melee, but if they keep dying and refuse to change their weapon, it makes it harder for the rest of us.

Understanding your build and playstyle, however, is paramount to numbers and stats. Good gear can't fix poor play. And knowing mechanics helps, too. (:

That being said I love teaching people mechanics. I've maintained this since I got yelled at for being a level 25 bow user who had barely played for a week: as long as you're not deliberately ignoring advice, I'll stick it out. After all, if you do stick around, I'll have more people to run dungeons with! And the amount of thanks you get for giving people a chance is nice, too. Even made a few friends out of it.

MaxwellC · June 2016

Not sure but I'm not trying to come out and say I'm insisting but I will give advice and say if you're using x gear set with x gear trait it will not benefit you the most here and give said player(s) a list of possible setups that'll benefit them and let them pick and choose.
I fight engine guardian all the time melee as that's the best way for a stam DK to go about it with their dots/maelstrom weapons (even if they don't have it better for more DoTs).

I also disagree good gear can fix poor play in the sense you learn what you're gear is capable of, e.g. how many times I can use this ability, dodge, amount of damage I can take, healing I can do,etc. Once you learn that you can build your setup of rotations from that + learn what you're weak against and how to optimize/lessen the impact of that weakness whether it be getting out of red circles or laying down some shields.

yodased · June 2016

Well I guess its time I got off my lazy ass and finished the dungeon guide website I started over 2 years ago then. lol

If you are PC and want to learn dungeons, hit me up my guild is quite literally what we do

rhapsodious · June 2016

MaxwellCrystal wrote: »

I fight engine guardian all the time melee as that's the best way for a stam DK to go about it with their dots/maelstrom weapons (even if they don't have it better for more DoTs).

I also disagree good gear can fix poor play in the sense you learn what you're gear is capable of, e.g. how many times I can use this ability, dodge, amount of damage I can take, healing I can do,etc. Once you learn that you can build your setup of rotations from that + learn what you're weak against and how to optimize/lessen the impact of that weakness whether it be getting out of red circles or laying down some shields.

Ah! Yeah, I have a squishy as hell Nightblade so I stay away. Never said it wasn't possible, just that I wouldn't recommend it for a newbie what with the proximity shock and not being in healer range during poison range and all that. Sorry, maybe I should have clarified that I meant inexperienced players. But like I said, any idea is worth trying. Just, if it isn't working, maybe swap tactics. Not "no, we're doing it this way, otherwise you get kicked".

And yes, you're right, it gives you more wiggle room, but I think you actually made the point I was trying to make in your counterargument. It's about learning to work with your build, not expecting your build to do the work for you. In other words, simply having BiS gear does not mean you win. I'd say resource management is a hallmark of good play. When writing my comment I was more imagining someone who heard that, say, Hundings/NMG is a good DPS set and Leeroying their way into mobs.

tl;dr I agree with you and think maybe my point wasn't as clear as it could have been.

HeroOfNone · June 2016

yodased wrote: »

Well I guess its time I got off my lazy ass and finished the dungeon guide website I started over 2 years ago then. lol

If you are PC and want to learn dungeons, hit me up my guild is quite literally what we do

We should at least get the basics done, but I would hate to spoon feed folks too far. It's fun to watch folks go "woah wtf" the first time they see a mechanic

KaleidoscopeEyz · June 2016

I find it difficult to believe people are complaining about getting through "grind" content quicker. Hey, I'm sure this dungeon was loads of fun the first dozen times. Now I just wanna get in and out as quick as possible.