jrgray93 wrote: »

I really don't like the fact that champion points are visible now. I say this as someone with 476. ESO has always done a good job of letting a player keep their builds and such private. No "inspect" or group DPS meters and what-not. While this occasionally means getting a bad group, it means pretty much everyone had a fair chance to get involved in content. This is extremely important for the long-term health of the population. If you can screen people from groups based on gear and CP progression, that stands a chance of making those people less interested in the game. That's not the environment I want to be involved in while playing this game. I don't want a toxic e-peen contest. I want a fun, social game atmosphere, where I'm encouraged to meet new players and not to turn them away for being less progressed.

We of course need a scaling system to replace veteran ranks. Few people would have been interested in taking a V1 player into a V16 gold run, for instance. So keep the CP value readout, but perhaps change it up. Personally, I see little point in displaying anything beyond the gear and dungeon scaling cap of (currently) 160. Why not say "160+" for anyone beyond that point? That assures you know you're getting someone who is capable of using gear that is up to snuff, which is basically all you should be able to know.

This patch has been out for two days and all I see in LFG posts in chat is CP values and occasional shaming of people for not having 501, sometimes joking, sometimes not. I've seen numerous people kicked from groups for being in the 160-250 range. You can't control the behavior of players who do this, but why give them the tools to do it to begin with?

You completely fail to understand the mathematical difference between 160 and 501 cp.
People willing to kick you for having low CP will be able to notice what your CP is like by seeing your health, buffs, and performance. Nothing will change, its just easier for them to do it before starting a dungeon that they will have to restart to fill positions for (like vet pledges).
To be brutally honest, if you are below 300 cp, you are either new or barely play. Some people don't want to play with more casual players. Why should they be forced to play with you when you will be significantly weaker?

TL;DR: Kicking will happen regardless of CP. Suck it up, progress.

Saw guys calling out in /zone "LFM 501 Silver" last night.

/shakeshead

ZOS has just destroyed an already broken dungeon/pledge system. I feel sorry for all the PVE boys out there.

I think the problem is far more fundamental TBH.

People at 500cp are effectively V50
They complain content is ridiculously easy.
Their magica/health/stamina keeps growing with every CP point they get.
Plus those resources actually stack.
+15% stamina/magicka/health does not make you 15% harder to kill.
You can do 15% more damage, 15% more healing, 15% more mitigation = 45% more sustain total
Plus the power is also scaled by app. 7.5% more damage + 7.5% more healing + 7.5% more mitigation = 22.5% more power total
ie 7.5% more damage with 15% more defense
[assuming 10x WD + 1x Resource...etc]

Now bear in mind scaling stops at 160cp or the equivalent of V16.
You have outlevelled the content by 34 Vet levels.
Is it any wonder you find it easy compared to someone with 160cp ?

You could request downscaling people greater than 160 to 160cp level.
But why is their magicka/stamina/health scaling beyond the 160 gear cap anyway ?

..................................................................

With that problematic scenario outlined and the fact Champion was supposed to be horizontal progressions and everyone acknowledges it is OP....
Why not simply remove +health +magicka +stamina from CP ?
That way everyone has the health/magicka/stamina of a level 50.
That way all of the passives actually scale up level 50 base stats instead of scaling up V50 (500cp) base stats.

Once this is done 500cp is much more about flavour and build choice rather than power.
Content is much more challenging and appropriately scaled to people with 100s of CP.

As an officer in a progression guild with 6 raids a week and serious effort in completing sanctum, this was one of the best changes in this game.

I had 550 CP before orsinium and I never grinded.

To be completely honest here, someone below 501 champion points havent played that much. I have friends that have much to do IRL and sometimes are offline for a week, they have 501 long time ago. I see championpoints ticks in everyday at me, and Im currently at 709, I also had 2-3 month break from the game around christmas time.

For people that dont want to do other content then pledges, AA and dragonstar, they dont care that much about CP rank either. But for me, its a big deal.

Its my personal time and effort I put in this game, and you have no idea how many hours I have spent whipeing on hardmode sanctum or vmol, and not have a clue about why. It require 12 man to complete a trial. Some trials are very hard and require experience people with best stats and gear.

In other words, let people see the CP rank please, its the best changes this patch.

I'd personally like to see an inspect option.

Queued as a Tank? Oh I see you are dual wielding with a destruction staff and light armor.

Buh-bye.

Kalifas wrote: »

The question for me, is content restricted by CP cap?
If it is not then CP rank should not be displayed for all to see, especially in open world content.

A technical restriction? No. The only CP-based technical restriction is on gear, not content. Cadwell's Silver has mobs with less CP than anywhere else, but that's a difficulty indicator rather than a restriction.

bedlom wrote: »

All they had to do was take away the vet ranks, hide the CP and keep it at lvl 50.
But na they gotta be weird about it.

Indeed. CPs were always invisible before, while providing the same stat bonuses that they do now. The only difference is the gear CP requirement; the benefits CPs give to a character haven't changed, so why do we need to see them when we didn't before?

camilla_noctis wrote: »

Can I just have the cp I missed out on from leveling before others/champion system? I would feel a good amount better about this issue if I was at least caught up to those with similar playtimes.

We had that already. 5 CP per VR when the Champion System was first introduced.

Lenikus wrote: »

...Well, before Vet removal people could see your vet rank the whole time and no one complained about that.
It's your level, which defines your overall capacity, statwise. get over it.

CPs also affect the stats of below-50 characters. Why can't we see those CPs too? If we're primarily showing CPs because of the stat advantage they give, then we need to see the stat advantage of pre-50s.

camilla_noctis wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

camilla_noctis wrote: »

Can I just have the cp I missed out on from leveling before others/champion system? I would feel a good amount better about this issue if I was at least caught up to those with similar playtimes.

We had that already. 5 CP per VR when the Champion System was first introduced.

This isn't enough. People have been attaining far more than 5 cp per vet rank while leveling. People had over 100 at very low vet ranks.

It was appropriate at the time, because each CP required a fixed 400,000 XP when the system launched. Considering we got one CP per 200,000 XP, we actually got twice as many as we should have based on XP alone.

lol i wish having 476 CPs made be a good player i really do

jeevin wrote: »

SlayerTheDragon wrote: »

Saw guys calling out in /zone "LFM 501 Silver" last night.

/shakeshead

ZOS has just destroyed an already broken dungeon/pledge system. I feel sorry for all the PVE boys out there.

I've also seen this today. It really puts me off grouping at the moment.

As I warned about on the PTS, and as I said yesterday in this very thread: The Elitism, it is beginning.

While I agree with the sentiment of "just ignore the elitists and play with people who don't do the Elitism", its not that simple.

There is a significant portion of the player populace who have reached "end-game" content in both PvE and PvP. They are a very competitive populace as well. The majority of people looking to form groups are more and more going to make CP501 a necessity. That doesn't make it "right" by any means, the reality is that this is what will happen, and is what is already happening.

And it will get worse once the DB Update gets released on the Consoles. While there is a significant portion of MMO Gamers who were waiting for and very excited to get a proper MMO on the Consoles, not a small portion of the Console population comes from FPS games.

Everyone should know by now how the elitism and having a certain weapon, build, or Prestige became necessary on shooter LFG sites and MM teams in FPS games.

Look at Call of Duty and the Prestige requirements.
Look at Destiny and the Gjallarhorn requirements pre-TTK, and then the Light Level requirements post-TTK.

And that's just two examples.

If the CP501 Elitism is already well underway on the PC (and it is from what I've seen in Zone Chat with my own eyes), then it will only increase exponentially once DB releases for the consoles.

And Zenimax has only themselves to blame for this.

If we assume for a minute that we don't need to show CPs over 160, based on the fact we never did before, then I guess what's relevant is whether someone is able equip max gear. That's basically an indicator of whether you're above or below 160. So here's a proposal:

Characters below 160 CP:
"Level 50"

Characters at or above 160 CP:
"Level 50 "

ViciousWayz wrote: »

I don't really care about the showing of CP..... but wow did they cluster**** the names. It's an eyesore looking at other player's names now with everything going on.

It used to be clear and to the point, now it provides information I don't honestly care about. My friends talk about their CP all the time and I know their @ names. Why do I need to see everyone's at all times. Titles are in a very odd spot... it's all looks like a bad formatting.

Yeah, with all that faff I now can't remember how they used to show titles, but I'm pretty sure it looked better before.

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

jeevin wrote: »

SlayerTheDragon wrote: »

Saw guys calling out in /zone "LFM 501 Silver" last night.

/shakeshead

ZOS has just destroyed an already broken dungeon/pledge system. I feel sorry for all the PVE boys out there.

I've also seen this today. It really puts me off grouping at the moment.

As I warned about on the PTS, and as I said yesterday in this very thread: The Elitism, it is beginning.

While I agree with the sentiment of "just ignore the elitists and play with people who don't do the Elitism", its not that simple.

There is a significant portion of the player populace who have reached "end-game" content in both PvE and PvP. They are a very competitive populace as well. The majority of people looking to form groups are more and more going to make CP501 a necessity. That doesn't make it "right" by any means, the reality is that this is what will happen, and is what is already happening.

And it will get worse once the DB Update gets released on the Consoles. While there is a significant portion of MMO Gamers who were waiting for and very excited to get a proper MMO on the Consoles, not a small portion of the Console population comes from FPS games.

Everyone should know by now how the elitism and having a certain weapon, build, or Prestige became necessary on shooter LFG sites and MM teams in FPS games.

Look at Call of Duty and the Prestige requirements.
Look at Destiny and the Gjallarhorn requirements pre-TTK, and then the Light Level requirements post-TTK.

And that's just two examples.

If the CP501 Elitism is already well underway on the PC (and it is from what I've seen in Zone Chat with my own eyes), then it will only increase exponentially once DB releases for the consoles.

And Zenimax has only themselves to blame for this.

I think it has more to do with time than anything. Higher level/CP folks tend to have the passives needed for a smooth run that doesn't take 4 hours. The same rules applied in Destiny. It was a pain to drag through low light level folks through Hard raids.

I for one, do not enjoy dragging a VR1 through a Vet dungeon. Most are not even good at being fodder (always dead).

Let's face it, the total number of CPs do not necessarily indicate a higher level of competency. All it could mean is that said player grinded for CPs. There is a serious difference between the ability to grind for CPs and the ability to tackle gold-key/end-game content. I'd much rather run content with someone with a lower number of CPs, but who has learned how to play his/her character properly, than with someone who has achieved 501 CPs from grinding alone.

But, you never know if we judge based on a simple number display.

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

The_Patriarch wrote: »

Let's face it, the total number of CPs do not necessarily indicate a higher level of competency.

And you are absolutely correct.

But that won't make a bit of difference for the LFG/PuG/etc. elitists. They'll look only at that CP number, and their minds will be made up in that very instant.

And more and more people are going to do this, as they will assume that a full party of 501's will mean a greased and easy run through whatever end-game content they're trying to conquer.

It's sad, but it's the reality.

Agreed. Then that naive 501 group will blame their healer for wiping so much.

Tan9oSuccka wrote: »

I'd personally like to see an inspect option.

Queued as a Tank? Oh I see you are dual wielding with a destruction staff and light armor.

Buh-bye.

You can tell that by looking at the character.

That being said, my Templar tank usually runs around the world with a resto staff, DW (because she's leveling it) and light armor. When I get pulled into a group I switch into full tank gear (or healing, depending on what I queued up as).

Level really isn't an indication of skill though. A week or so ago, silver pledge was Darkshade and I still need the netch collectible, so I grabbed a couple of guildies and we were short a DPS.

No problem there, as they are easy to find in the group finder. We pick up a player that is level 23 or so and they ask if this is the dungeon with the guy you need to get the deed from. We say yes and he said he'd gone through it with another group but they had disbanded before he could hand in the quest.

I'm healing, so I'm keeping an eye on the group. By the time we get to the foreman fight, I notice that this player is really good at staying out of red, targeting the right mobs and bringing any aggro to the tank and I figure he's an experienced player leveling an alt. Then he says "can you tell I'm new". He had been playing the game for about a week. But he's an experienced MMO player and really knew how to play in a group, so it was a really nice run.