hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Kungfu wrote: »

Check out builds by people like Nos (lol forgot his full name, been reading it as just "Nos" for so long). He's got some unconventional builds that may provide insight for interested players.

I actually checked Nos's DoT based build. It is pretty interesting specially as it uses a lightning staff which benefits from our passsives. Unfortunately that build only achieves high DPS against mobs, in a solo boss fight I believe it can only reach about 30K DPS and that is assuming the sorcerer manages to to maintain their ground targeted DoTs 100% of the time, which is not always possible.

Considering other classes can maintain sustained DPS over 40k reaching up to 50-55 k at times while bringing more group utility than sorcerers can provide with their current kit, you can't say sorcerers are competitive in PvE.

Based on what analysis are you basing your claim? 25k on bloodspawn on a 300 CP toon without any buffs except Puncture and in imperfect gear is OP. Full raid buffs single target will be around 35k at leaat. Also keep in mind that with the exception of Manti, all the endgame currently has adds in it. If you are doing 35k single target, you will be pulling 45+ with another add in the mix. Additionally you provide a 10 second vulnerability proc to all targets. If you look at poisons then you can seen the hat poison duration. Is a few seconds at most and only applies 20% of the time. This set provides vulnerability for 10 seconds on the first tick of the heavy. This build will pull some of the highest numbers in SO and vMoL. For the few AA bosses that die in seconds you can just go overload.

Again, I think that build is very interesting but even if you do manage to pull a 40 -45 k DPS with that build in a raid boss, it is still, at best, in par with other classes and other classes can pull that DPS while providing all the group utility sorcerers simply lack. What exactly is the incentive to bring more than once sorcerer to a raid if they bring little utility and dubiously comparable DPS? I had high hopes for the newly improved negate, but the heal is not strong enough to justify its use over Barrier, for example.

Utility:
1. Minor vulnerability in all adds and boss (no dps has to run a poison. Since no one wants to run these in PvE)
2. Swap out curse in my setup for mines and you buff the group with minor spell crit.
3. At least 2 sorcs in a group will be amazing, both bosses in vMoL and trash to all have minor vulnerability will skyrocket group DPS.
4. Ranging AoE allows less strain on the healer.
5. Need I go on? Plus thelse 40-45 k dps parses you are talking about, can you link them? I only know one person on NA server pulling these numbers and that's Slayer on his stam DK. Sorcs will bring huge dps and huge utility into the group.

Yes, I do need you to keep going because Minor Vulnerability and Minor Prophecy do not compare to the sort of Utility other classes bring when you take into account Shell , Nova, Veil, etc.

Understand, I have nothing against your build, I am actually very interested on it, but it does not fix the serious issues with the sorcerer class. My objective with this threads is for Zenimax to realize the class is struggling because from his Q&A, @Wrobel seems to think we are doing just fine, which we are not.

Ok, so nightblades in high end raid do not drop Veil...ever...mitigation is only dropped by healers, and only in a few instances. Most high end teams have tanks and healers all on warhorn. No dps is dropping mitigation ultimates, that is only a thing if group DPS is low. I agree that sorcs need a buff and shouldnt be forced into these "different" builds. But I also dont agree that they are not useful and weak. It just takes a special skill to play them well.

Yes, it is still possible for sorcerers to complete content, my problem and the reason why I am so upset with Zenimax is that they took a class that was already struggling and nerfed it in the one point that class exceeded. At the same time, they didn't buff said class at all, pets die too easily, they only get the extra health they need in PvP which is moronic, we are still plagued by toggles, some of which don't even have a active element to them, our class ultimates are without a doubt the worse among the class ultimates... It is frustrating.
Other classes can do everything sorcerers do, but better... That is not balance. Yes, can sorcerers still complete content, sure... Are they competitive? Are they fun to play? No...

Nifty2g wrote: »

By the way Sorcerer bros, Major Prophecy is highly needed in end game raids, Sorcerer is not useless

You do mean Minor Prophecy, right? And for that you only need one sorcerer, which is the exact number of sorcerers the best groups will carry with them...

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

This thread is pretty funny. A lot of the people complaining about Sorcerers I'm assuming were only using the class to stack shields and use Overload. But, Sorcerers are far more deeper than that. And any "true" Sorcerer will tell you this. Granted the class feels overall much weaker now, and I'll probably main my Magicka Dragonknight... I still crush with my Sorcerer. Even more ironic, a pet build Sorcerer. It's hilarious to see FOTM Stamina Dragonknights and Nightblades run for their lives from a familiar and twilight, while getting merked-on via Crushing Shocks, C-Frags, and Overload light attacks.

your assumption would be wrong. i used Hardened ward as my only shield on a destro/dual wield, high crit build relying on Surge for heals, Dawnbreaker was my ult. that build was crushed with DB.

it's destro/resto i wouldn't be able to get out of that.

I always used Destro/Resto for my magicka builds. I understand the premise behind dual-wielding for the Overload bar, and all that jazz for higher damage... But like... How you call yourself a mage without using staves? Not to mention Destro/Resto complementing themselves beautifully, with one assisting with damage and penetration; the other providing sustain and healing? FOTM Sorcerers with their destruction staves, dual-wielded swords, are feeling the heat now. And that says it a lot honestly. It really does...

And please don't get me wrong. I want Hardened Ward to last for at least 10 seconds. At least 10 seconds. And the class definitely feels weaker now, which is why I've transitioned to making my Dunmer Magicka Dragonknight my main. But, to simply say that Sorcerers are dead and liabilities? I strongly disagree. As I sad, I had tremendous success with my pet build. And continued to into DB (granted it's only been a few days since its been out). And pet builds are even lower on the food chain than stamina sorcerers.

You do realize Elder Scrolls sorcerers are mostly blade wielders, right? They still do most of their damage as magicka, but are blade wielders. ^^

The problem is not that we can use a staff, the problem is that we have no other choice while other classes have that flexibility. The lack of a spammable damage ability in the sorcerer's kit is a ridiculous restriction that makes no sense.

Which are major problems in their own respect, in my opinion.

The fact you get higher spell benefits off using melee-based weapons than staves is very disturbing to me. Very disturbing. Lol. I mean as a mage, I feel my offense should be kept at a distance. Utilizing spells of destructive capabilities to stick it to my enemies, while calling upon summons of: Dragons, entities, spirits, zombies, etc. to my aid as a complement to the wizardry taking place. Defenses ranging from magical constructions of walls, wards, to my summons to guard me. All while being able to teleport or "blink" from location to location in an instant. That's a mage to me. That's a sorcerer. A master of the arcane arts.

Also how the Sorcerer class lacks a spammable ability is beyond me. You gotta ask someone in the combat development team about that. Lmao. That makes no sense to me, and baffles me every time I think about it. Just like how Dragonknights have no class-based execute. Confuses the heck out of me. But again, I have no idea the thoughts of the developers. All I know is that I think they abuse skooma from time to time, and like to design while under its influence.

We did ask @Wrobel about the spammable problem. His response was pretty laughable, if not tragic.
Here:

Flaminir wrote: »
Sorcerers are the only class that doesn’t have a spammable class-based DPS skill. Why did you change Trapping Webs (the only spammable ability we had access to which isn't tied to a Destro Staff) to only Stamina, so we now have no choice but to run a Destro Staff in all aspects of the game? (This question is coming mainly from a PVP perspective as Trapping Webs was widely used in PVP with Dual Wield Magicka builds.)

Trapping Webs was never meant to be a spammable ability such as Lava Whip, Force Shock, Strife, etc. It costs more and is lower damage. The focus for Undaunted abilities is having powerful Synergies, so we redesigned it to feel less spammy. (Note that each Synergy has a 20-second cooldown before you can activate it again.)
We understand that Sorcerers would like more freedom with choosing what weapon to use. As a Stamina character, even without a class damaging ability, you have a diverse set of options between Bow, 1h Shield, 2h, and Dual Wield. Magicka technically has 4 options as well – Restoration Staff and 3 flavors of Destruction Staff. However Restoration staff doesn’t support offensive abilities and there is not enough diversity between the three types of Destruction Staff. We don’t have any immediate plans to change this, but we would like to give Sorcerers more compelling decisions when selecting a weapon.

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

This thread is pretty funny. A lot of the people complaining about Sorcerers I'm assuming were only using the class to stack shields and use Overload. But, Sorcerers are far more deeper than that. And any "true" Sorcerer will tell you this. Granted the class feels overall much weaker now, and I'll probably main my Magicka Dragonknight... I still crush with my Sorcerer. Even more ironic, a pet build Sorcerer. It's hilarious to see FOTM Stamina Dragonknights and Nightblades run for their lives from a familiar and twilight, while getting merked-on via Crushing Shocks, C-Frags, and Overload light attacks.

your assumption would be wrong. i used Hardened ward as my only shield on a destro/dual wield, high crit build relying on Surge for heals, Dawnbreaker was my ult. that build was crushed with DB.

it's destro/resto i wouldn't be able to get out of that.

I always used Destro/Resto for my magicka builds. I understand the premise behind dual-wielding for the Overload bar, and all that jazz for higher damage... But like... How you call yourself a mage without using staves? Not to mention Destro/Resto complementing themselves beautifully, with one assisting with damage and penetration; the other providing sustain and healing? FOTM Sorcerers with their destruction staves, dual-wielded swords, are feeling the heat now. And that says it a lot honestly. It really does...

And please don't get me wrong. I want Hardened Ward to last for at least 10 seconds. At least 10 seconds. And the class definitely feels weaker now, which is why I've transitioned to making my Dunmer Magicka Dragonknight my main. But, to simply say that Sorcerers are dead and liabilities? I strongly disagree. As I sad, I had tremendous success with my pet build. And continued to into DB (granted it's only been a few days since its been out). And pet builds are even lower on the food chain than stamina sorcerers.

You do realize Elder Scrolls sorcerers are mostly blade wielders, right? They still do most of their damage as magicka, but are blade wielders. ^^

The problem is not that we can use a staff, the problem is that we have no other choice while other classes have that flexibility. The lack of a spammable damage ability in the sorcerer's kit is a ridiculous restriction that makes no sense.

Which are major problems in their own respect, in my opinion.

The fact you get higher spell benefits off using melee-based weapons than staves is very disturbing to me. Very disturbing. Lol. I mean as a mage, I feel my offense should be kept at a distance. Utilizing spells of destructive capabilities to stick it to my enemies, while calling upon summons of: Dragons, entities, spirits, zombies, etc. to my aid as a complement to the wizardry taking place. Defenses ranging from magical constructions of walls, wards, to my summons to guard me. All while being able to teleport or "blink" from location to location in an instant. That's a mage to me. That's a sorcerer. A master of the arcane arts.

Also how the Sorcerer class lacks a spammable ability is beyond me. You gotta ask someone in the combat development team about that. Lmao. That makes no sense to me, and baffles me every time I think about it. Just like how Dragonknights have no class-based execute. Confuses the heck out of me. But again, I have no idea the thoughts of the developers. All I know is that I think they abuse skooma from time to time, and like to design while under its influence.

We did ask @Wrobel about the spammable problem. His response was pretty laughable, if not tragic.
Here:

Flaminir wrote: »
Sorcerers are the only class that doesn’t have a spammable class-based DPS skill. Why did you change Trapping Webs (the only spammable ability we had access to which isn't tied to a Destro Staff) to only Stamina, so we now have no choice but to run a Destro Staff in all aspects of the game? (This question is coming mainly from a PVP perspective as Trapping Webs was widely used in PVP with Dual Wield Magicka builds.)

Trapping Webs was never meant to be a spammable ability such as Lava Whip, Force Shock, Strife, etc. It costs more and is lower damage. The focus for Undaunted abilities is having powerful Synergies, so we redesigned it to feel less spammy. (Note that each Synergy has a 20-second cooldown before you can activate it again.)
We understand that Sorcerers would like more freedom with choosing what weapon to use. As a Stamina character, even without a class damaging ability, you have a diverse set of options between Bow, 1h Shield, 2h, and Dual Wield. Magicka technically has 4 options as well – Restoration Staff and 3 flavors of Destruction Staff. However Restoration staff doesn’t support offensive abilities and there is not enough diversity between the three types of Destruction Staff. We don’t have any immediate plans to change this, but we would like to give Sorcerers more compelling decisions when selecting a weapon.

LOL! Lmao! Yoooo! Wrobel didn't say that! Why you fibbing on that man like that? There's no way Wrobel wrote that. No way, bruh. I refuse! I absolutely refuse to believe he said that! No way! Wrobel wouldn't do a whole class like that. The was't his response. Stop playing, b.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/267979/dark-brotherhood-sorcerer-q-a/p1

His answers to our questions were all... Fascinating. His ideas for a crit based sorcerer tank and then this: "We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome since it’s difficult to do."... It is just priceless...

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Kungfu wrote: »

Check out builds by people like Nos (lol forgot his full name, been reading it as just "Nos" for so long). He's got some unconventional builds that may provide insight for interested players.

I actually checked Nos's DoT based build. It is pretty interesting specially as it uses a lightning staff which benefits from our passsives. Unfortunately that build only achieves high DPS against mobs, in a solo boss fight I believe it can only reach about 30K DPS and that is assuming the sorcerer manages to to maintain their ground targeted DoTs 100% of the time, which is not always possible.

Considering other classes can maintain sustained DPS over 40k reaching up to 50-55 k at times while bringing more group utility than sorcerers can provide with their current kit, you can't say sorcerers are competitive in PvE.

Based on what analysis are you basing your claim? 25k on bloodspawn on a 300 CP toon without any buffs except Puncture and in imperfect gear is OP. Full raid buffs single target will be around 35k at leaat. Also keep in mind that with the exception of Manti, all the endgame currently has adds in it. If you are doing 35k single target, you will be pulling 45+ with another add in the mix. Additionally you provide a 10 second vulnerability proc to all targets. If you look at poisons then you can seen the hat poison duration. Is a few seconds at most and only applies 20% of the time. This set provides vulnerability for 10 seconds on the first tick of the heavy. This build will pull some of the highest numbers in SO and vMoL. For the few AA bosses that die in seconds you can just go overload.

Again, I think that build is very interesting but even if you do manage to pull a 40 -45 k DPS with that build in a raid boss, it is still, at best, in par with other classes and other classes can pull that DPS while providing all the group utility sorcerers simply lack. What exactly is the incentive to bring more than once sorcerer to a raid if they bring little utility and dubiously comparable DPS? I had high hopes for the newly improved negate, but the heal is not strong enough to justify its use over Barrier, for example.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

If i was to tell all of you I have a really really good Sorc Battle Mage build that makes you:

1. Tanky as can be
2. Hits like a Truck with close to 4k Spell Damage buffed
3. Very good regen values
4. High defense and mobility
5. Phenominal healing

Would you all be interested in a build video?

I don't care if your friend or foe, even though Sorc is no longer my main toon, I did Theory Craft this build and NO ONE else in Cyrodiil is running anything remotely close to it...in open world solo roaming i went 163-3 with it, in the hands of a player even more skilled then me you will eat most other classes for breakfast.

If folks are interested reply here, i'll make a build video tonight i'll show you everything from champ points to gear and everything else in between....this build is significantly more powerful then Sorc's were last patch, and the good thing is its not a huge investment to get up and running, the playstyle is slightly different, but once you get used to it, you will wonder how you could ever play Sorc any other way.

Share it, but again, sorcerer's greater problem is in PvE, not so much in PvP. Still, ideas are always welcome.

Yes this is a PVP only build, I don't do high level end game PVe on Sorc anymore

Well if there is enough interest i'll share my Battlemage Build.

I'm always interested in wonky/odd builds, let's see it!

Here are the PVP issues we have with out current builds:

1. Mitigation: we're tied to light armor because of the Magicka passives. But with poisons and the new sharpened trait (5K penetration) we get torn to shreds. Anyone telling you a Magicka sorc is great without five pieces of light armor is *** delusional.

The answer I have has been to keep up lightning form 24/7. It lasts longer than shields used to, there's no reason not to have boundless up constantly. Back-bar it. That pretty much negates sharpened weapons. Keep defensive rune up 24/7, it gives a chance to fight back.

2. Everyone has the memo now on stunning a sorc and then killing them instantly 5 seconds into their shield. It's extremely difficult to survive a single stun, let alone something like fear.

The answer I have has been to slot empowered for the longer shield, and then slot 3-4 impen pieces. Sorc absolutely needs points in hardy and crit defense now, we can't just put 100+ into bastion anymore.

3. Instant ganks without shields: unfortunately sorc builds are going to have to get used to slotting radiant magelight and keeping up lightning form. It's stupid, but this is where we are. I keep it on my overload bar, and I only travel Cyrodiil with overload up. I survive the initial hits, shield up, mine up, and counter with light attacks. If it's a bow-tard, streak up to range, CC and kill them.

There are so many newborn baby cockroach gankers in Cyrodiil, post-DB it's not even funny! So many people playing the new content come running to Cyrodiil anxious to kill players just like the NPC's! It's your job to help them pick another class.

None of this makes us 'all right', but it's still playable. As @Fengrush said, the problem with our class is our passives are the worst of all four. They need to be dealt with. 3% damage bonus for slotting a class skill? *** Fighters guild does better than that.

Grao wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Grao wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

This thread is pretty funny. A lot of the people complaining about Sorcerers I'm assuming were only using the class to stack shields and use Overload. But, Sorcerers are far more deeper than that. And any "true" Sorcerer will tell you this. Granted the class feels overall much weaker now, and I'll probably main my Magicka Dragonknight... I still crush with my Sorcerer. Even more ironic, a pet build Sorcerer. It's hilarious to see FOTM Stamina Dragonknights and Nightblades run for their lives from a familiar and twilight, while getting merked-on via Crushing Shocks, C-Frags, and Overload light attacks.

your assumption would be wrong. i used Hardened ward as my only shield on a destro/dual wield, high crit build relying on Surge for heals, Dawnbreaker was my ult. that build was crushed with DB.

it's destro/resto i wouldn't be able to get out of that.

I always used Destro/Resto for my magicka builds. I understand the premise behind dual-wielding for the Overload bar, and all that jazz for higher damage... But like... How you call yourself a mage without using staves? Not to mention Destro/Resto complementing themselves beautifully, with one assisting with damage and penetration; the other providing sustain and healing? FOTM Sorcerers with their destruction staves, dual-wielded swords, are feeling the heat now. And that says it a lot honestly. It really does...

And please don't get me wrong. I want Hardened Ward to last for at least 10 seconds. At least 10 seconds. And the class definitely feels weaker now, which is why I've transitioned to making my Dunmer Magicka Dragonknight my main. But, to simply say that Sorcerers are dead and liabilities? I strongly disagree. As I sad, I had tremendous success with my pet build. And continued to into DB (granted it's only been a few days since its been out). And pet builds are even lower on the food chain than stamina sorcerers.

You do realize Elder Scrolls sorcerers are mostly blade wielders, right? They still do most of their damage as magicka, but are blade wielders. ^^

The problem is not that we can use a staff, the problem is that we have no other choice while other classes have that flexibility. The lack of a spammable damage ability in the sorcerer's kit is a ridiculous restriction that makes no sense.

Which are major problems in their own respect, in my opinion.

The fact you get higher spell benefits off using melee-based weapons than staves is very disturbing to me. Very disturbing. Lol. I mean as a mage, I feel my offense should be kept at a distance. Utilizing spells of destructive capabilities to stick it to my enemies, while calling upon summons of: Dragons, entities, spirits, zombies, etc. to my aid as a complement to the wizardry taking place. Defenses ranging from magical constructions of walls, wards, to my summons to guard me. All while being able to teleport or "blink" from location to location in an instant. That's a mage to me. That's a sorcerer. A master of the arcane arts.

Also how the Sorcerer class lacks a spammable ability is beyond me. You gotta ask someone in the combat development team about that. Lmao. That makes no sense to me, and baffles me every time I think about it. Just like how Dragonknights have no class-based execute. Confuses the heck out of me. But again, I have no idea the thoughts of the developers. All I know is that I think they abuse skooma from time to time, and like to design while under its influence.

We did ask @Wrobel about the spammable problem. His response was pretty laughable, if not tragic.
Here:

Flaminir wrote: »
Sorcerers are the only class that doesn’t have a spammable class-based DPS skill. Why did you change Trapping Webs (the only spammable ability we had access to which isn't tied to a Destro Staff) to only Stamina, so we now have no choice but to run a Destro Staff in all aspects of the game? (This question is coming mainly from a PVP perspective as Trapping Webs was widely used in PVP with Dual Wield Magicka builds.)

Trapping Webs was never meant to be a spammable ability such as Lava Whip, Force Shock, Strife, etc. It costs more and is lower damage. The focus for Undaunted abilities is having powerful Synergies, so we redesigned it to feel less spammy. (Note that each Synergy has a 20-second cooldown before you can activate it again.)
We understand that Sorcerers would like more freedom with choosing what weapon to use. As a Stamina character, even without a class damaging ability, you have a diverse set of options between Bow, 1h Shield, 2h, and Dual Wield. Magicka technically has 4 options as well – Restoration Staff and 3 flavors of Destruction Staff. However Restoration staff doesn’t support offensive abilities and there is not enough diversity between the three types of Destruction Staff. We don’t have any immediate plans to change this, but we would like to give Sorcerers more compelling decisions when selecting a weapon.

LOL! Lmao! Yoooo! Wrobel didn't say that! Why you fibbing on that man like that? There's no way Wrobel wrote that. No way, bruh. I refuse! I absolutely refuse to believe he said that! No way! Wrobel wouldn't do a whole class like that. The was't his response. Stop playing, b.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/267979/dark-brotherhood-sorcerer-q-a/p1

His answers to our questions were all... Fascinating. His ideas for a crit based sorcerer tank and then this: "We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome since it’s difficult to do."... It is just priceless...

The developers want the Sorcerer class to die and be a laughing stock... He actually said that... Well... This is embarrassing... Defending sorcerers and all... What was I thinking? Time to invest 100% of my time in my other classes, and lie about owning a Sorcerer... :'(

Sorcs are still more than fine. Even with these nerfs. This DLC actually makes me want to play with my magicka sorc again. They've been so disgustingly overpowered that I felt dirty playing as one. Now I might actually enjoy playing as one since I have to some what pay attention now. You sorcs that are crying really need to adapt. View this change as an opportunity to feel a little more proud about your class.