CP Display's Negative Side Effects

Kalifas · June 2016

The issue seems to be CP cap is being perceived like i-lvl.
I-lvl is usually gear defined.
I-lvl usually restricts you from entering content or queuing up for specific content that requires a certain I-lvl.

The question for me, is content restricted by CP cap?
If it is not then CP rank should not be displayed for all to see, especially in open world content.

I dislike CP cap or i-lvl when it used globally. It makes grouping up more of a chore even when content is designed to be fun and mildly challenging. Now for the most difficult content, what raiders usually refer to as the most difficult content in the game. Then an i-lvl or CP cap makes sense.

We can't have oblivious players trying to group with elite players in that style of content. It sets up a movie scene of inevitable drama. That type of difficult content usually only has 5-10 percent of the playerbase completing it.

Is that kind of game ZoS wants to have here? A game that caters to the elite or a game that caters to the casual-midcore demographic.

Kartalin · June 2016

Technically speaking, 501 CP does indicate the full measure of your progression, so I think there is justification for displaying it, and there is a catch up mechanism as well. Still, this does not justify the elitism we're hearing about. People ran these dungeons just fine before there was a champion point system.

Also your CP rank can be misleading. My DK for instance just hit v1 days before the patch, but looking at him with 501+ CP you'd have no idea I'm not as practiced with him as my Nightblade who earned the vast majority of my points.

Glaiceana · June 2016

Its stupid for people to kick players for their CP count. For three reasons:
1) Just because someone has 501 points, does not mean they have invested them in the best CP sections for their build.
2) You do not see how many are assigned, it might say they have 501, but for all you know they have only 30 in each tree assigned, or maybe none, perhaps they reset them and haven't yet assigned them or chosen how to do so.
3) I'm 100% certain that there are people with a lot less CP than me that can play the game way better than I ever could.

Giraffon · June 2016

I think showing 160+ would be sufficient. It shows you have access to the highest level gear. Any other assumptions you want to make about a player based on their CP score is purely guesswork. It really boils down to what you are getting ready to do and the amount of experience the players have in that particular activity.

Uriel_Nocturne · June 2016

Glaiceana wrote: »

Its stupid for people to kick players for their CP count. For three reasons:
1) Just because someone has 501 points, does not mean they have invested them in the best CP sections for their build.
2) You do not see how many are assigned, it might say they have 501, but for all you know they have only 30 in each tree assigned, or maybe none, perhaps they reset them and haven't yet assigned them or chosen how to do so.
3) I'm 100% certain that there are people with a lot less CP than me that can play the game way better than I ever could.

Giraffon wrote: »

I think showing 160+ would be sufficient. It shows you have access to the highest level gear. Any other assumptions you want to make about a player based on their CP score is purely guesswork. It really boils down to what you are getting ready to do and the amount of experience the players have in that particular activity.

I agree with both of you.

That is the adult, calm, rational method of going about this.

Unfortunately; the majority of people who are going to be driving and promoting the elitism in-game and in all of the various LFG's have none of those qualities. They won't care. They'll look at that CP total, and their minds will be made up in that one instance.

And that is a sad turn of events for this MMO.

Nefas · June 2016

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Nefas wrote: »

@Uriel_Nocturne If I may ask out of curiosity, what do you consider to be "end game" as of this patch?

The same end-game content as before the patch.

Sanctum Ophidia
The various Group Dungeons
The Undaunted pledges
etc.

While I agree with you and others they could have made 160CP display only at best or gone a different route, I don't think it seriously changed the attitudes of a large portion of the playerbase (PC/NA) regarding Undaunted pledges and the regular 4 man dungeons.

Even before the CP conversion, people who were "elitist" or wanted a smooth run usually asked for dungeon-related achievements or DPS numbers as I said in my first post.

Undaunted pledges/4 man dungeons aren't really end game content as I've seen/met plenty of people even without 501 CP solo or 2/3man man all of it except vICP.

As for the "rebalanced" vICP/vWGT/vCoA, I'm sure that they will still be difficult for first timers or newer players but not near impossible as they used to be.

From my experience, progressive and serious Trial groups always maintained a sort of exclusivity with gear, classes, DPS, skills and a while ago CP. Same with some PvP guilds in the past.

In my opinion the only true endgame content left are the Trials (hard modes, SO, vMOL) and CP based PvP. Two areas in which CP can matter and can be used to gauge groups. Being in guilds/making friends will also go a long way in doing this endgame content as well.

Basically, it doesn't matter if people are being elitist about CP in zone chat or for casual dungeons. I respectfully disagree with you and see no issue here in regards to people being blocked out of "endgame" by people who think 501 = skills.

rotaugen454 · June 2016

I'd rather run with a 160 CP player that didn't stand in the red or draw aggro from multiple mobs in group dungeons than a 501 who dies and blames your healer.

Uriel_Nocturne · June 2016

Nefas wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Nefas wrote: »

@Uriel_Nocturne If I may ask out of curiosity, what do you consider to be "end game" as of this patch?

The same end-game content as before the patch.

Sanctum Ophidia
The various Group Dungeons
The Undaunted pledges
etc.

While I agree with you and others they could have made 160CP display only at best or gone a different route, I don't think it seriously changed the attitudes of a large portion of the playerbase (PC/NA) regarding Undaunted pledges and the regular 4 man dungeons.

Even before the CP conversion, people who were "elitist" or wanted a smooth run usually asked for dungeon-related achievements or DPS numbers as I said in my first post.

Undaunted pledges/4 man dungeons aren't really end game content as I've seen/met plenty of people even without 501 CP solo or 2/3man man all of it except vICP.

As for the "rebalanced" vICP/vWGT/vCoA, I'm sure that they will still be difficult for first timers or newer players but not near impossible as they used to be.

From my experience, progressive and serious Trial groups always maintained a sort of exclusivity with gear, classes, DPS, skills and a while ago CP. Same with some PvP guilds in the past.

In my opinion the only true endgame content left are the Trials (hard modes, SO, vMOL) and CP based PvP. Two areas in which CP can matter and can be used to gauge groups. Being in guilds/making friends will also go a long way in doing this endgame content as well.

Basically, it doesn't matter if people are being elitist about CP in zone chat or for casual dungeons. I respectfully disagree with you and see no issue here in regards to people being blocked out of "endgame" by people who think 501 = skills.

I appreciate the well articulated rebuttal. However, my disagreement with you is because I have seen it already taking place.

While I definitely agree with you that a certain level of elitism was already present, it is getting worse now that everything in the game and your character build ties directly and solely to your CP total.

The game has changed, and insofar as it matters on Day 3 of the DB Update, it is beginning to look like an increasingly negative change.

ThePonzzz · June 2016

CP showing is far more telling than a level. If someone is VR16, we can assume they have VR16 gear, for their own sake. But that's as far as it went. Gear cap is 160, so seeing someone at 370 doesn't mean squat for gear. You can assume every 10 CP is basically a VR rank, so if you see someone at 110 CP, they are old school VR11.

But now people are knowing I have specific amounts of CP, which will translate that I should be spec'ed a specific way. I'm going to be blamed for things like my DPS being low if I invested in a weird champion skill.

I had a hard enough time getting into PUGs for group dungeons. It's likely going to be game over in that regard.

Refuse2GrowUp · June 2016

Only read thru half of the comments in the thread. For the most part, it is a lot of whining that you may get excluded from content.

CP doesn't determine your capability. Any player that will judge you based upon your CP is likely a rubbish player that lacks the skill to be able to complete content with ease. Most of us at or over CP cap could care less how many CP you have because if you struggle on content, we know we have the skill to help carry you some. Simply, those players who would judge you based upon your CP are the turds you really don't want to play with anyway. They are not elitists. They are wannabe's; posers who are trying to inflate their own egos. So, stop throwing around the word elitists like is carries some sort of weight or credentials.

The only content which you should be judged for is vMoL and (now) vSanctum. It is difficult content, and it requires good players. Now, again...your CP total does not infer you are a good player just because you hit a benchmark, or that you are not a good player if not at that benchmark. But you do need to be min/maxed, know your character really well, and able to parse good dps. If some of the complaints in here are because you are at 100, 160, 250 or whatever CPs and being excluded from this content, well, suck it the F up. Some content in the game you should have to grow into.

If however the complaints are about regular dungeons or the old/normal mode trials, then I will offer the same suggestion I did for the myriad of discussions about group finder 'wannabe elites' who would boot you for being less than v16 or running a build/class they perceived to be less than optimal...stop pug'ing and join a guild. You really only face these issues when trying to pug, or if in a garbage guild. Add like minded players to your friends list to play with or join a helpful, non-toxic guild. Really is simple as that. In fact, it is much simpler to simply be social - a silly concept in an MMO - and join a guild or add players to your friends list than to come on the forums and whine.

TL/DR: Don't complain about how you get treated by judgmental kids wanting to inflate their own egos, or insecure about their own abilities, if you are constantly trying to PUG...which is most likely where you are experiencing this prejudicial behavior. Simply join a friendly guild or add like-minded players to your friends list so that you no longer need to PUG and deal with the non-sense. You are as much to blame as those turds requiring 501CP to run content.

BTW, I am well over 501cp, I am part of one of the best PvE guilds on PS4 NA and run with 'elites', but I also run a progressive PvE guild where we teach dungeons and trials to players at all levels.

RoyalPink06 · June 2016

Personally I would never exclude anyone based on level, or now CP points in this case. I might scoff a little off the mic, lets be real here, but everyone gets a fair chance to play with me or my group. I've been playing on console since release and I'm very close to 501 (I guess I'm a filthy casual since I don't play 24 hours a day 7 days a week), but I know what I'm doing.

Its too bad I won't get the same treatment in return now.

Lava_Croft · June 2016

People who think 501 Champion Point is equal to "this player must have what it takes to complete this content with us" are people too dumb to be playing with in the first place. Just forget about them and find smarter people to play with.

Basically, ZOS provided you with an intelligence test!

ThePonzzz · June 2016

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Only read thru half of the comments in the thread. For the most part, it is a lot of whining that you may get excluded from content.

CP doesn't determine your capability. Any player that will judge you based upon your CP is likely a rubbish player that lacks the skill to be able to complete content with ease. Most of us at or over CP cap could care less how many CP you have because if you struggle on content, we know we have the skill to help carry you some. Simply, those players who would judge you based upon your CP are the turds you really don't want to play with anyway. They are not elitists. They are wannabe's; posers who are trying to inflate their own egos. So, stop throwing around the word elitists like is carries some sort of weight or credentials.

The only content which you should be judged for is vMoL and (now) vSanctum. It is difficult content, and it requires good players. Now, again...your CP total does not infer you are a good player just because you hit a benchmark, or that you are not a good player if not at that benchmark. But you do need to be min/maxed, know your character really well, and able to parse good dps. If some of the complaints in here are because you are at 100, 160, 250 or whatever CPs and being excluded from this content, well, suck it the F up. Some content in the game you should have to grow into.

If however the complaints are about regular dungeons or the old/normal mode trials, then I will offer the same suggestion I did for the myriad of discussions about group finder 'wannabe elites' who would boot you for being less than v16 or running a build/class they perceived to be less than optimal...stop pug'ing and join a guild. You really only face these issues when trying to pug, or if in a garbage guild. Add like minded players to your friends list to play with or join a helpful, non-toxic guild. Really is simple as that. In fact, it is much simpler to simply be social - a silly concept in an MMO - and join a guild or add players to your friends list than to come on the forums and whine.

TL/DR: Don't complain about how you get treated by judgmental kids wanting to inflate their own egos, or insecure about their own abilities, if you are constantly trying to PUG...which is most likely where you are experiencing this prejudicial behavior. Simply join a friendly guild or add like-minded players to your friends list so that you no longer need to PUG and deal with the non-sense. You are as much to blame as those turds requiring 501CP to run content.

BTW, I am well over 501cp, I am part of one of the best PvE guilds on PS4 NA and run with 'elites', but I also run a progressive PvE guild where we teach dungeons and trials to players at all levels.

Not all of us are professional MMO gamers though. I come here to relax. Not do a job. Joining a guild isn't always the answer. Some are very strict on how often you log in, sell in their store, or what you can offer. Friends come and go, especially with every major update.

Celas_Dranacea · June 2016

I'm at max cp and have enjoyed strutting around grahtwood with my swollen e-peen.

However, I also think displaying cp is a negative for the community.

My vote is with the suggestion of only displaying up to the gear cap (160) to not create a stigma for newer players.

Kungfu · June 2016

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Kungfu wrote: »

I have to agree with this.
It only encourages elitist behaviors which will alienate the casual player.

I've always asked in "other games" how these people expect someone to gain experience in end game content when only "experienced" players are desirable.

It's a bad loop that ESO has done well to avoid and should continue to do so by removing (a)champ points and (b)@ account names from nameplates.

To be fair: The @name showing on the nameplates has nothing to do with CP Elitism in end-game content.

It will when / if CP count visibility is removed.

Taleof2Cities · June 2016

It's possible for a player with only 160CP to have their build figured out and done the requisite homework on gear and skills. (Could be lower CP, in fact, based on how they've picked up the game.)

Said player is most welcome in my pledge group or as a PvP raid buddy ...

Nefas · June 2016

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Nefas wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Nefas wrote: »

@Uriel_Nocturne If I may ask out of curiosity, what do you consider to be "end game" as of this patch?

The same end-game content as before the patch.

Sanctum Ophidia
The various Group Dungeons
The Undaunted pledges
etc.

While I agree with you and others they could have made 160CP display only at best or gone a different route, I don't think it seriously changed the attitudes of a large portion of the playerbase (PC/NA) regarding Undaunted pledges and the regular 4 man dungeons.

Even before the CP conversion, people who were "elitist" or wanted a smooth run usually asked for dungeon-related achievements or DPS numbers as I said in my first post.

Undaunted pledges/4 man dungeons aren't really end game content as I've seen/met plenty of people even without 501 CP solo or 2/3man man all of it except vICP.

As for the "rebalanced" vICP/vWGT/vCoA, I'm sure that they will still be difficult for first timers or newer players but not near impossible as they used to be.

From my experience, progressive and serious Trial groups always maintained a sort of exclusivity with gear, classes, DPS, skills and a while ago CP. Same with some PvP guilds in the past.

In my opinion the only true endgame content left are the Trials (hard modes, SO, vMOL) and CP based PvP. Two areas in which CP can matter and can be used to gauge groups. Being in guilds/making friends will also go a long way in doing this endgame content as well.

Basically, it doesn't matter if people are being elitist about CP in zone chat or for casual dungeons. I respectfully disagree with you and see no issue here in regards to people being blocked out of "endgame" by people who think 501 = skills.

I appreciate the well articulated rebuttal. However, my disagreement with you is because I have seen it already taking place.

While I definitely agree with you that a certain level of elitism was already present, it is getting worse now that everything in the game and your character build ties directly and solely to your CP total.

The game has changed, and insofar as it matters on Day 3 of the DB Update, it is beginning to look like an increasingly negative change.

Oh for sure there will be and have been people only wanting max CP in their groups recently.

As I and others like @Refuse2GrowUp just mentioned, it's probably people that we didn't want to play with in the first place. I have always had more fun with beginners or people who didn't try to direct every little thing you did.

Hopefully you see more positivity take place in the coming days though!

As for CP influencing your character build, it's been like this for a rather long time. It's why a lot of sets like Warlock isn't used as much for endgame gear these days.

The "everything" else like the early VR mats, there will be some market changes and a further reduction in usage but the VR to CP conversion has done more good than harm so far in terms of renewing interest with the older players and providing less of a tedious time buffer for the newer and more casual players.

Aimora · June 2016

Yeah I thought this too and don't really understand why they don't just show 160 CP's as this is equivalent to V16 which is all anyone could see before.

jrgray93 · June 2016

OP here. Thought I should respond to a few points.

Yes, you probably don't want to play with those people to begin with, but you could still PuG a dungeon with them and never know the difference. In fact, you may have even had fun. Now if I start to immediately ignore anyone who asks for a high CP value because I don't like that attitude, I'm limiting myself on group choices.

Also, joining a guild is not the answer for everyone. I've never joined anything but a trading guild because it doesn't appeal to me. I fit somewhere between the more hardcore players and the casuals. I have the ability to do trials but I don't like to play on a schedule and the more hardcore content doesn't really appeal to me so much, so I mostly craft gear and stick to veteran dungeons and PuGs. I meet a lot of nice people and I have a lot of fun doing it.

Also worth noting is that my experience and my complaints regard finding random people for pledges. I think having requirements to join harder content and guilds is perfectly fine. It's finding random people for easier content where this behavior irks me. You want someone to meet requirements for your guild? Ask them how many CPs they have if that matters to you. You can screen your guilds just fine and nobody cares, but casual and random players shouldn't be screened for easy content.

Nefas · June 2016

ThePonzzz wrote: »

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

Only read thru half of the comments in the thread. For the most part, it is a lot of whining that you may get excluded from content.

CP doesn't determine your capability. Any player that will judge you based upon your CP is likely a rubbish player that lacks the skill to be able to complete content with ease. Most of us at or over CP cap could care less how many CP you have because if you struggle on content, we know we have the skill to help carry you some. Simply, those players who would judge you based upon your CP are the turds you really don't want to play with anyway. They are not elitists. They are wannabe's; posers who are trying to inflate their own egos. So, stop throwing around the word elitists like is carries some sort of weight or credentials.

The only content which you should be judged for is vMoL and (now) vSanctum. It is difficult content, and it requires good players. Now, again...your CP total does not infer you are a good player just because you hit a benchmark, or that you are not a good player if not at that benchmark. But you do need to be min/maxed, know your character really well, and able to parse good dps. If some of the complaints in here are because you are at 100, 160, 250 or whatever CPs and being excluded from this content, well, suck it the F up. Some content in the game you should have to grow into.

If however the complaints are about regular dungeons or the old/normal mode trials, then I will offer the same suggestion I did for the myriad of discussions about group finder 'wannabe elites' who would boot you for being less than v16 or running a build/class they perceived to be less than optimal...stop pug'ing and join a guild. You really only face these issues when trying to pug, or if in a garbage guild. Add like minded players to your friends list to play with or join a helpful, non-toxic guild. Really is simple as that. In fact, it is much simpler to simply be social - a silly concept in an MMO - and join a guild or add players to your friends list than to come on the forums and whine.

TL/DR: Don't complain about how you get treated by judgmental kids wanting to inflate their own egos, or insecure about their own abilities, if you are constantly trying to PUG...which is most likely where you are experiencing this prejudicial behavior. Simply join a friendly guild or add like-minded players to your friends list so that you no longer need to PUG and deal with the non-sense. You are as much to blame as those turds requiring 501CP to run content.

BTW, I am well over 501cp, I am part of one of the best PvE guilds on PS4 NA and run with 'elites', but I also run a progressive PvE guild where we teach dungeons and trials to players at all levels.

Not all of us are professional MMO gamers though. I come here to relax. Not do a job. Joining a guild isn't always the answer. Some are very strict on how often you log in, sell in their store, or what you can offer. Friends come and go, especially with every major update.

There are many many guilds that don't "require" anything other than being friendly (PC/NA). The guilds you mentioned are probably "PvP", merchant guilds or progressive guilds.

If you would like I can point you to a few guilds who have fantastic people in them. Or you can go to the guild sub-forums on this website or the ESO sub-Reddit to browse through guilds in their weekly guild recruitment thread.

SirAndy · June 2016

jrgray93 wrote: »

Why not say "160+" for anyone beyond that point? That assures you know you're getting someone who is capable of using gear that is up to snuff, which is basically all you should be able to know.

Tonnopesce · June 2016

I see to many ppl asking in zone chat "lfm 1healer/dd/tank for gold daily but only with x00 CP".
Is stupid that zos have let this kind of pseudo elitism going wild in the game, pseudo because let's be clear CP does not mean experience.
I have currently 490 CP but if i see someone searching for 2-300 CP tank i don't go.

Phinix1 · June 2016

jrgray93 wrote: »

Personally, I see little point in displaying anything beyond the gear and dungeon scaling cap of (currently) 160. Why not say "160+" for anyone beyond that point? That assures you know you're getting someone who is capable of using gear that is up to snuff, which is basically all you should be able to know.

I agree with this.

But they would have to remove the API function that lets you call actual CP values from the target, otherwise an addon would be out day 1 that would let the elitists see it anyway.

xblackroxe · June 2016

I have a problem with that generalisting of people at the cap and putting them all in the negativly preceived (not sure how to write that) "elitism" corner.
Also while reading through the thread I always hear that those [snip] are the majority. I for myself am playing this game now for over a year and have never been kicked from a group nor seen someone kick another guy in the group. So I don't know where this supposed majority is hiding from me.

Also I see no problem for people set requirements for other people to join the group. I mean if I want sure I can help others and whipe through dungeon but if not people will have to except it too. Its not the job of "elitists" to learn dungeons to newer players. Many of them sither learned it from friends or on their own.

And yes I know CP doesn't always say who is good and who isn't but it at least shows the commitment of those people so the chance of getting someone good is significantly higher.

I for myself actually find it pretty entitled of you saying that information needs to be hidden. I'm not accusing you of anything but that just sounds to me like whining of people that are bad and need to hide that in any way possible so others don't see it at the first glance.

N0TPLAYER2 · June 2016

Totally agree wth this. It's laughable people wanted the removal of vet ranks. It's to put us on an "even playing field" by letting the noobs feel like they were equal to us by putting everyone at level 50

Op is right that this will only increase the people who are booted and shunned. Now theirs such a big gap between "I'm a vet 16" but now, all the "vet 16s" who only have 100+ points will be laughed down. Before a noob vet 16 could fake it. Now there's no hiding the fact it only makes them look worse.

I'm at 550. I want people to know I'm a lot better than most common vet 16s. I run all vet dungeons, trials etc. I can heal with the best of them and now I appreciate I will stand out as a better player with the update.

But the removal of vet ranks was supposed to make casuals feel on equal footing and not be intimidated by the no lifers. Now they will hit level 50, think they are close. See they have 10' champ points while I have 500, and feel EVEN WORSE than they did when they thought they were only 15 levels behind. Now they're hundreds and hundreds of points behind.

It's backfiring and I love it. This isn't the type of game that's beat over the weekend. The time dedicated SHOULD reflect that. Don't cater to casuals as its us who is truly keeping you afloat.

Nefas · June 2016

@jrgray93

IF finding random people is very important and essential to you for a potentially easy run, then you will get unlucky/lucky randomly. This is so now and this was so before DB. However I am sure there are plenty of others who don't have 501 CP who would like to run with you. I don't think too many respond to the 501 CP group spam in zone chat.

I agree that no one should discriminate based on CP especially for easy content but if you insist on not forming consistent groups, friending/hitting people up or joining a somewhat casual social guild or anything besides winging it with random people on any day, then that's..I don't know what to say, limiting yourself to a degree unintentionally?

I_killed_Vivec · June 2016

I'm above the cap... and I'm a liability!

Always stopping to pick the flowers

SirAndy · June 2016

N0TPLAYER2 wrote: »

I'm at 550. I want people to know I'm a lot better than most common vet 16s. I run all vet dungeons, trials etc. I can heal with the best of them and now I appreciate I will stand out as a better player with the update.

@N0TPLAYER2
550 CP does not automatically make you a "better" player. It just means you have had a lot of time to play the game.
You could still suck big time.

The only thing that makes you a better player is your actual skill, which has nothing to do with how many CPs you have ...

GazettE · June 2016

Consider to read this thread pls
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert

Xjcon · June 2016

Really. Are we going to put this right next to Group Damage? People cry because leveling is to hard....now that it's not people are upset other players may not want to take you in their run because you sat in town doing very little while they gained EXP?