CP Display's Negative Side Effects

jrgray93 · June 2016

I really don't like the fact that champion points are visible now. I say this as someone with 476. ESO has always done a good job of letting a player keep their builds and such private. No "inspect" or group DPS meters and what-not. While this occasionally means getting a bad group, it means pretty much everyone had a fair chance to get involved in content. This is extremely important for the long-term health of the population. If you can screen people from groups based on gear and CP progression, that stands a chance of making those people less interested in the game. That's not the environment I want to be involved in while playing this game. I don't want a toxic e-peen contest. I want a fun, social game atmosphere, where I'm encouraged to meet new players and not to turn them away for being less progressed.

We of course need a scaling system to replace veteran ranks. Few people would have been interested in taking a V1 player into a V16 gold run, for instance. So keep the CP value readout, but perhaps change it up. Personally, I see little point in displaying anything beyond the gear and dungeon scaling cap of (currently) 160. Why not say "160+" for anyone beyond that point? That assures you know you're getting someone who is capable of using gear that is up to snuff, which is basically all you should be able to know.

This patch has been out for two days and all I see in LFG posts in chat is CP values and occasional shaming of people for not having 501, sometimes joking, sometimes not. I've seen numerous people kicked from groups for being in the 160-250 range. You can't control the behavior of players who do this, but why give them the tools to do it to begin with?

Uriel_Nocturne · June 2016

And this type of CP Elitism/shaming was what many of us (who were/are still very much against the removal of Vet Ranks and going to only Champion Points) warned Zenimax and the Community about before the change.

Now (and it is starting to show it's ugly head already); your build won't matter, your class won't matter, Healer/Tank/DPS... none of it matters after this change.

All that matters is if your Character has a CP501 next to their name. If you don't? Shaming, ridicule, and getting booted from a Group (if you even get an invite at all...) are going to be commonplace if that number isn't 501.

And all the PvP kiddos screaming their heads off for the removal of Vet Ranks, just so they can have a full slate of eight max-level characters in the shortest amount of time possible, they're the ones who should be held responsible for this. This is the abortion that their impatience created.

It will only get worse, OP.

NewBlacksmurf · June 2016

CP discussions are at an all time high again.

I agree that CP's shouldn't show but even more, they should not in any way try to display or create differences of players and NPCs. Dungeons should filter by character levels 10-50 and thats it.

VR system worked in this way but trying to convert VR to CP is a huge mistake and as experienced on PTS but moreso on live, this is a problem.

If ZOS hopes to display disparing difficulties, then it should be done in the tiers and not by the VR levels. Using levels 49 - 56 cover the tiers pre VR and post based on the material changes and not VR levels.

Consider that the VR levels didn't even matter cause the quests and stuff were still always level 50 so we all should show as level 50. Our CPs should stay passive and NPCs should show 50 - 56 in the VR areas and brackets where there needs to be emphasis on difficulty.

Kungfu · June 2016

I have to agree with edit: the OP. (These other guys complaining about vr removal are wrong imo)
It only encourages elitist behaviors which will alienate the casual player.

I've always asked in "other games" how these people expect someone to gain experience in end game content when only "experienced" players are desirable.

It's a bad loop that ESO has done well to avoid and should continue to do so by removing (a)champ points and (b)@ account names from nameplates.

ArchMikem · June 2016

It's funny that the people we complain about never seem to speak on the Forums. So either the Forums are filled with nothing but the players who see the better side of gaming, or some of us are hypocrites.

INITIATE WITCH HUNT.

Uriel_Nocturne · June 2016

Kungfu wrote: »

I have to agree with this.
It only encourages elitist behaviors which will alienate the casual player.

I've always asked in "other games" how these people expect someone to gain experience in end game content when only "experienced" players are desirable.

It's a bad loop that ESO has done well to avoid and should continue to do so by removing (a)champ points and (b)@ account names from nameplates.

To be fair: The @name showing on the nameplates has nothing to do with CP Elitism in end-game content.

Sallington · June 2016

In PvP, if I see you with <300 CP, all I see is a bullseye.

idk · June 2016

The champion system has been harsh in the more casual player/ one who doesn't spend 40 hours a week in game. It was something that concerned me from its launch. I am saying this as someone well past the CP cap and one who enjoys being able t customize all my characters.

While Zos has made some corrections to help new and casual players to catch up its far from enough. Zos failed to think through the implications of the champion system and has failed to make adequate corrections.

Robbmrp · June 2016

I couldn't agree with you more. The displaying of a persons actual CP count is going to get many people kicked from groups on the assumption that they won't be able to do the content or quick enough for the other grouped players. There are too many people out there already excluding people under 160 in Guilds. This will just make it easier for more people to be excluded from a lot of things.

camilla_noctis · June 2016

I keep feeling like I have to bring this up because I never get a response on it, but here it goes.

Some of us leveled to v10/12 BEFORE cp existed. I did not get a bunch of "free" cp as I leveled through those vet ranks from quests. Those quests were all dried up as a result. I did not have the hundreds of cp people claim to have when they reached v16. I remember many people specifically saying "oh 160? I easily had that by v4/5/6"

We got +40 with the update. But that's not enough - I am far more cp behind than that from what I can tell. I look around and see just enormous numbers of cp (I have FTC so it shows numbers above 501 - kinda depressing). I should be high if not close to max, but I'm just now at 300 when I was actually at about 100 or so when I hit v16 before. I feel as if my time has been invalidated - I spent a lot of time getting veteran ranks, and most of those just vanished overnight - the 40 bonus does not replace all those quests that I can no longer get cp from. At least before I had v16 next to my name, which I felt was some sort of solace and indicator that I knew what I was doing. And now I'm very fearful for what the community will do with non-maxed players.

rotaugen454 · June 2016

I have 597CP and don't mind running with people well below the cap.

ArchMikem · June 2016

Sallington wrote: »

In PvP, if I see you with <300 CP, all I see is a bullseye.

Meanie Mc'Meanface.

NateAssassin · June 2016

I've already seen in zone chats where people with low cp don't get to join pledge groups, and people with 501 cp won't accept anyone below that.

And I am just sitting here with 403 cp knowing that unless I grind like *** I will get excluded from trials and vet pledges.

camilla_noctis · June 2016

NateAssassin wrote: »

I've already seen in zone chats where people with low cp don't get to join pledge groups, and people with 501 cp won't accept anyone below that.

And I am just sitting here with 403 cp knowing that unless I grind like *** I will get excluded from trials and vet pledges.

Yeah, now it feels like there's simply a much larger level grind to reach endgame than ever before. (Yes alts are made more convenient, but we're talking first time through/ getting to endgame).

Selique · June 2016

I have not had any encounter with anyone who said they would not run with a person below 501. Most people are happy to have people with 160. Even in PvP.

Turelus · June 2016

I surprised they didn't cap what was shown at 160 rather than 501.

Then it would have just been the same as VR and everyone could gauge people on if they had the level for max gear and CP is a secret bonus.

jrgray93 · June 2016

I also feel I should add there are plenty of 501 folks who don't care. That's not stopping the hordes of kids who do kick based on CP.

Also, I've already grouped with at least a few 501 players who were far worse at the game than some other 200-ish players. CP isn't the ultimate determination of usefulness, but it is being treated as such.

Ch4mpTW · June 2016

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I have 597CP and don't mind running with people well below the cap.

Same. I'm above the current cap, and I don't mind running content with players with lower champion points/veteran ranks than me. I never did.

Some people who classify themselves as "elite" and "superior" tend to forget that if you want to get more competent and "elite" players (overall), it helps to teach those with a lesser amount of experience than you. If they are interesting in learning, and show a drive to learn? You mold the homie, and teach them your ways. You don't teach them everything, but teach them enough that they can start to learn on their own. You teach 'em the bread-'n-butters, the build staples, and then EXPLAIN what it is you just taught. You go in-depth with your teachings, and provide examples that the person learning can relate to. And before you know, you'll have more and more people who not only can perform better? But people who will one day provide knowledge to the next roaming "random", and person in search of knowledge. And if you're lucky, they'll big you up when they see you in town and speak highly of you. They'll say, "Hey, there's ______ who showed me the ropes when I was coming up. Let me go see if they need anything, and just go say hello."

STEVIL · June 2016

As an odd idea to throw out...

What if we just let people choose for themselves who they group with and by that if they choose to use cp501 as a benchmark,its ok.

Just like if someone wants to start an all templar only templar guild.

Or should we start masking sfx so you dont know someone is a sorc bc some people might not want a sorc in the group?

FWIW 501 or whatever cp value you want IS at least a metrick of time playing.

As for only show to 160... is it fine thdn to draw the line at 150?

Not defending the chatter nonsense or insults.

SneaK · June 2016

It is a really stupid decision to show CP beyond 160. OP has presented a great argument and ZOS really needs to pull their head out and read it. What purpose does showing 501CP next to my name serve? It should show 160CP and that's it.

Nefas · June 2016

The whole "CP-elitist" thing or rather the perception of it is not new. I would say the people who judge based simply on the amount of CP is not even worth playing with in the first place or that they're simply idiots.

I agree that it does make it easier for people to decide whether to party with you or not but before this patch it was either Vet Ranks (typically non-VR16s weren't too wanted in farm runs/achievement runs even if they had "max CP") or a minimal DPS.

For example, before TG/Orsinium, I & others would've wanted or made at least 14-16k DPS MINIMUM for vICP/vWGT to have a comfortable run.

Even if you did not want to share your numbers with the group everyone simply knew with the first mobs what the group's overall DPS was like anyway. Some parties I've been in disbanded after those mobs because the damage or group synergy was off.

Was it elitist? No, not really from my perspective although it did deter a few people from trying. Those two dungeons were meant as challenging end-game content. One person not doing their best meant failure or frustration for the entire group.

I and plenty of other guildies encouraged first timers to run with us, learn and have fun regardless of their CP or whatever. We even scraped together time+gold to get gear for those lacking in DPS.

This will of course not be true for people in zone chat or wherever but realize that the end game content has been nerfed and you can do them in a more relaxed manner.

Ignore the idiots and have fun. Also, as for the transition of Vet Ranks to a CP standard, I support it whole heartedly. It was one change that was sorely needed not just for "PvP kiddos" but for PvE'ers as well.

Molag_Crow · June 2016

Well not everyone with 501cp will be an elitist jerk who'll kick/judge players with lower CP.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · June 2016

Just posted this on another thread, but I'll reiterate. First my CP is well over the cap, and I very much supported Vet rank removal because I play alts. Second, I think giving people access to other's CP number was a mistake as stated above. I have already seen LF group posts with CP requirements, which I just don't think is good for the long term health of the game.

It used to be that there was a gate of 15 vet levels that you needed to grind to be considered for end game content. In their infinite wisdom, ZOS realized that was off-putting to a lot of new players wanting to get into the game, or veteran players that wanted to bring up alts. That part, I agree with. The problem is that by making the CP public, you have replaced the V16 Finish line for being acceptable at end game with a 501CP as the new target, which is much further away for most people. The CP display should stop at 160 (or whatever the current gear level cap is at the time) IMO.

AlnilamE · June 2016

Personally, I don't care how many CP people I group with have. I joined a group for the random dungeon yesterday where the other players had CP in the 300s and we just zoomed through the dungeon.

Of course, the vet pledge yesterday was ICP, so a lot of people are picky about who they group with for that.

And people saying how many CP they have is just a left-over from them stating their vet rank (which was rendered pretty much irrelevant by the scaling of the group). People will get over it.

Asmael · June 2016

CP 501 is the new max level, thus if you haven't reached it yet, you're a n00b to some people.

Best thing to do as a high CP player, if you see someone complaining that a member has low CPs, tell them that it doesn't matter. If they still oppose you or kick the lowbie, leave the group, and group with said lowbie.

I'll take someone weaker but willing to learn over a so-called "elite" that will just make the whole run a nightmare.

Ch4mpTW · June 2016

Asmael wrote: »

CP 501 is the new max level, thus if you haven't reached it yet, you're a n00b to some people.

Best thing to do as a high CP player, if you see someone complaining that a member has low CPs, tell them that it doesn't matter. If they still oppose you or kick the lowbie, leave the group, and group with said lowbie.

I'll take someone weaker but willing to learn over a so-called "elite" that will just make the whole run a nightmare.

I agree with you 100%. Especially with dungeons being solo-able. Especially with DB launch. I'll easily take a "lowbie", over someone who calls themselves an "elite" and behaves in a boisterous manner. In fact, true story, I know some people with around 300 champion points that perform better than some people I know at the champion point cap. And they outperform them regularly.

So everyone who isn't at the CP cap, please don't even sweat the so-called elitists, and or anyone trying to belittle you for having less champion points than them. Simply ignore them, move on, and continue to handle your business. They're not worth ya time.

Uriel_Nocturne · June 2016

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I have 597CP and don't mind running with people well below the cap.

jrgray93 wrote: »

I also feel I should add there are plenty of 501 folks who don't care. That's not stopping the hordes of kids who do kick based on CP.

Also, I've already grouped with at least a few 501 players who were far worse at the game than some other 200-ish players. CP isn't the ultimate determination of usefulness, but it is being treated as such.

Ch4mpTW wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I have 597CP and don't mind running with people well below the cap.

Same. I'm above the current cap, and I don't mind running content with players with lower champion points/veteran ranks than me. I never did.

Some people who classify themselves as "elite" and "superior" tend to forget that if you want to get more competent and "elite" players (overall), it helps to teach those with a lesser amount of experience than you. If they are interesting in learning, and show a drive to learn? You mold the homie, and teach them your ways. You don't teach them everything, but teach them enough that they can start to learn on their own. You teach 'em the bread-'n-butters, the build staples, and then EXPLAIN what it is you just taught. You go in-depth with your teachings, and provide examples that the person learning can relate to. And before you know, you'll have more and more people who not only can perform better? But people who will one day provide knowledge to the next roaming "random", and person in search of knowledge. And if you're lucky, they'll big you up when they see you in town and speak highly of you. They'll say, "Hey, there's ______ who showed me the ropes when I was coming up. Let me go see if they need anything, and just go say hello."

I applaud you all for being adults, and not caring about that CP501, or participating in the Elitist firestorm that is working its way into any/all end-game content.

Unfortunately, the three of you and those like you are in the minority. The vast minority.

This change to only CP's (while great for impatient kids who want seven separate Alt characters for their PvP grinding...) is what is causing this. Had they implemented a more regular level system to progress after level 50, and left CP's as a support/background system where it would work better, then this might not be an issue.

As it is right now, we are entering the days of "No 501 = no play in the end-game".

And this is a really sad turn for a great MMO like ESO is.

Slurg · June 2016

There was a huge thread on PTS saying this very thing would happen and that was almost completely ignored except they changed the display to cap at 501.

I've been away and haven't seen this for myself yet but it was completely expected by pretty much everyone. If some jerk tries to 'shame' me in a game for having a life and being under 501 CP, I will gladly abuse report them, I do not even care that it is petty.

Acrolas · June 2016

I'm pacing myself to the content now, not other players. There's no point hitting the 501 cap until the day before the next cap increase. Otherwise I'm just wasting time on XP penalties that won't exist in the future, just to gain at this point ~2% performance.

ZOS should probably realize that strategists are going to keep a small buffer between their current level and the cap so they can keep playing their favorite high-level characters without penalty. Raising the cap by 51 provides the motivation to fill in that old buffer. Holding a cap is just going to discourage anyone pacing themselves.

It's going to probably be mid-2019 before we get 1000 CP to use anyway. It keeps your CP160 gear fresh for a few additional months, but ZOS is going to have to sit down and decide if they want to start planning for the megaservers to prioritize instances by CP level so players of a similar level play together.

Nefas · June 2016

@Uriel_Nocturne If I may ask out of curiosity, what do you consider to be "end game" as of this patch?

Uriel_Nocturne · June 2016

Nefas wrote: »

@Uriel_Nocturne If I may ask out of curiosity, what do you consider to be "end game" as of this patch?

The same end-game content as before the patch.

Sanctum Ophidia
The various Group Dungeons
The Undaunted pledges
etc.