I'm not feeling the Champion level.

Gidorick · June 2016

I know I'm probably completely alone in this but the conversion to veteran ranks has really negatively impacted my motivation to play my main character. I don't like that the Champion Level is so prominent and the fact that CP level is being used for item requirements doesn't make it any better. Before, when the Champion Points were beneath the leveling, they seemed like a cool addition to ESO. The champion system was this little tangential leveling system to give players a little incentive to keep going but now they seem... intrusive.

I realize my complaints are largely cosmetic complaints but the CP level just doesn't "feel" like an Elder Scrolls level.

On the other hand, it's a good incentive to level my alts.

Robbmrp · June 2016

I'm with you there. Seeing a number ranging from 1-xxx in someones name looks a lot worse than V10 or something like that. They should have just converted the Vet Levels(63,64,65,66 etc) to normal levels like typical MMO's.

yodased · June 2016

lua is a great resource, more than likely you have the ability to turn those off

ArchMikem · June 2016

Not sure I'm fully getting your meaning. Though I've yet to experience the change cause Xbox.

You don't like how ten Champion Points equals a level? But I get the feeling that you need to have an incentive to keep playing, a goal right? I guess I'm more of a play just cause I want to gamer. Once the change hits Xbox and my characters suddenly become max level, I'm gonna try to fit them with the good gear and then I'm just gonna continue playing as normal. Quest. Explore. Make little suicidal runs into Cyrodiil if I feel like it.

jrgray93 · June 2016

yodased wrote: »

lua is a great resource, more than likely you have the ability to turn those off

The problem with this is that they only turn it off for you. All that does is put you at an informational disadvantage to other players. I don't think champion points should have been made available to see to begin with. All it does is encourage people to only group with players of high CP value. That's not conducive to a friendly experience for newer or more casual players, who are necessary for the good of the game.

Should they keep the value visible to other players, I think it would make more sense if anything over 160 just showed as "160+." It's nice to know people can wear max value gear and your group leader will scale correctly. What's not necessary and creates an environment of elitism is showing things like 501.

NewBlacksmurf · June 2016

I completely agree about this.
It really, really needs to stop at 50

*Allow the requirements to be level 50
-the gear progression should continue based on monster difficulty and gear/material tiers and crafting tiers but the game should never show a player or an NPC as CP anything. its weird and its actually not a level.

I know ZOS understands that but they are trying to create a visual difference in the UI, however this isn't the best way to approach this. The best way is NPC levels of 49 - 56
and CPs make use passively better by chosen pts but not better overall.

Uriel_Nocturne · June 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

I know I'm probably completely alone in this but the conversion to veteran ranks has really negatively impacted my motivation to play my main character. I don't like that the Champion Level is so prominent and the fact that CP level is being used for item requirements doesn't make it any better. Before, when the Champion Points were beneath the leveling, they seemed like a cool addition to ESO. The champion system was this little tangential leveling system to give players a little incentive to keep going but now they seem... intrusive.

I realize my complaints are largely cosmetic complaints but the CP level just doesn't "feel" like an Elder Scrolls level.

On the other hand, it's a good incentive to level my alts.

Robbmrp wrote: »

I'm with you there. Seeing a number ranging from 1-xxx in someones name looks a lot worse than V10 or something like that. They should have just converted the Vet Levels(63,64,65,66 etc) to normal levels like typical MMO's.

You are not alone, OP.

I was very vocal in my opposition to the removal of Vet Ranks and going to only Champion Points. But, this was a mistake that Zenimax was determined to make, so...

I agree with both of the Quoted posts.

I feel that the game would have been better served by keeping the Vet Ranks, or going to something akin to @Robbmrp 's suggestion.

Gidorick · June 2016

I completely agree @Robbmrp and @Uriel_Nocturne ... I too was part of the vocal minority prior to this change and was suggesting ZOS change Vet Ranks to levels.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/174148/level-50-80-vr-1-16-replacement-a-new-ish-concept/p1

I would have much preferred it if they just removed Vet Ranks and let us level at the same rate as before (we would have ended with level 80)

I was worried that basing things like item requirements off of champion points wouldn't work and while I'll admit that it functions fine and that I just don't care for it.

Pretty much @ArchMikem , I'm saying the Champion System as a leveling system doesn't seem like an Elder Scrolls leveling system. I feel like this is just another step ESO has taken away from the Elder Scrolls franchise.

It's comforting to know I'm not alone in my dislike for the Champion System as the main leveling system... .even though there is absolutely no hope of this ever being addressed.

Uriel_Nocturne · June 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

I completely agree @Robbmrp and @Uriel_Nocturne ... I too was part of the vocal minority prior to this change and was suggesting ZOS change Vet Ranks to levels.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/174148/level-50-80-vr-1-16-replacement-a-new-ish-concept/p1

I would have much preferred it if they just removed Vet Ranks and let us level at the same rate as before (we would have ended with level 80)

I was worried that basing things like item requirements off of champion points wouldn't work and while I'll admit that it functions fine and that I just don't care for it.

Pretty much @ArchMikem , I'm saying the Champion System as a leveling system doesn't seem like an Elder Scrolls leveling system. I feel like this is just another step ESO has taken away from the Elder Scrolls franchise.

It's comforting to know I'm not alone in my dislike for the Champion System as the main leveling system... .even though there is absolutely no hope of this ever being addressed.

I agree with your entire post, but my lack of hope is locked into that last statement.

Regardless of any type of stagnation to the game or Elitism in end-game content that the move to CP's is already engendering, there's very little hope of Zenimax switching it to something that might be better suited to an Elder Scrolls MMO...

waterfairy · June 2016

I'm welcoming this with open arms as I hate grinding and the XP needed to get to VR16 naturally would mean another years worth of play for me.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · June 2016

I for one was a big fan of Vet rank removal, mostly because I like to play alts. I do get the concerns though about making CP public. I think a better way to do it would simply have all level characters display "level 50" or "Max Level" or "veteran" rather than show CP numbers. I am also concerned because the CP requirement for group requests has already started. More than once I say," LF 501 CP tank for gold key" last night in zone. Doesn't personally affect me because I am at cap and rarely pug, but I question whether it is good for the overall health of the game.

NewBlacksmurf · June 2016

I think @Uriel_Nocturne and @Robbmrp that you all are taking this OP and moving it to something completely different.

The topic doesn't agree with cosmetically converting VR levels to numeric levels in the same functionality as the Vet system.
The topic is suggesting that the current attempt to display requirements and NPC difficulty as well as character progression from the VR system as a CP level isn't desired and feels done wrong.

Its not anything around VR levels staying character specific and being character levels 50-66 (which by the way VR wasn't even a character level)

*I just wanted to clarify that you don't agree but perhaps you all as well as I feel that displaying CP is wrong. Just that, and nothing else.

Uriel_Nocturne · June 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I think @Uriel_Nocturne and @Robbmrp that you all are taking this OP and moving it to something completely different.

The topic doesn't agree with cosmetically converting VR levels to numeric levels in the same functionality as the Vet system.
The topic is suggesting that the current attempt to display requirements and NPC difficulty as well as character progression from the VR system as a CP level isn't desired and feels done wrong.

Its not anything around VR levels staying character specific and being character levels 50-66 (which by the way VR wasn't even a character level)

*I just wanted to clarify that you don't agree but perhaps you all as well as I feel that displaying CP is wrong. Just that, and nothing else.

I disagree. Even the OP has agreed with us on the content in this thread and the detrimental effects it's having on the game.

Even if the display of the CP totals were the core issue at hand, that in itself opens up an entirely new host of issues directly related to that display.

Some of those are also mentioned in https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/269331/cp-displays-negative-side-effects#latest <--- this thread.

The elitism is starting to rear its ugly head, just as was forewarned in the PTS. And that's only one issue around displaying the CP totals. There are more, and the firestorm is already starting.

While I know I sound like some lunatic "doomsayer", the truth of the matter is that it's starting. It is really happening.

And it is all tied back to the insistence that Vet Ranks needed to be removed, and the very vocal minority was able to convince Zenimax that an "only CP progression end-game" was somehow a good idea.

The related aftereffects are inseparable from the root cause brought forth by @Gidorick .

Psyonico · June 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I for one was a big fan of Vet rank removal, mostly because I like to play alts. I do get the concerns though about making CP public. I think a better way to do it would simply have all level characters display "level 50" or "Max Level" or "veteran" rather than show CP numbers. I am also concerned because the CP requirement for group requests has already started. More than once I say," LF 501 CP tank for gold key" last night in zone. Doesn't personally affect me because I am at cap and rarely pug, but I question whether it is good for the overall health of the game.

This concerns me. And I am 100%bogging hiding CP either entirely or past 160, since that is "Max level"

Acrolas · June 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

has really negatively impacted my motivation to play my main character

I think it's simpler than that. You just don't like the game and you write extensively in an attempt to change your own mind by idealizing alternatives to pretty much everything.

You like the idea of ESO. Playing with concepts.
You hate the actual product.
Fascinating.

MasterSpatula · June 2016

A progression system that determines your gear, how much XP you gain, and displays next to your name is in no way "horizontal."

People have been asking for "50 is 50" since launch. This isn't even close to that.

SahrotRein · June 2016

I completely feel the same way about it @Gidorick, this whole update has made my ESO experience go down the drain. Not just veteran ranks removal but a lot of other things. Been playing since launch and this is the first time I am saddened this much to feel like stopping playing for a while

btw, none can haz my items

Gidorick · June 2016

Acrolas wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

has really negatively impacted my motivation to play my main character

I think it's simpler than that. You just don't like the game and you write extensively in an attempt to change your own mind by idealizing alternatives to pretty much everything.

You like the idea of ESO. Playing with concepts.
You hate the actual product.
Fascinating.

It's not that I hate the product @Acrolas , I just think The Elder Scrolls deserved more. I have said many time on this forum, what ZOS accomplished with ESO is amazing, it just left me wanting for more. When they released the justice system ZOS was moving in the right direction with ESO but there hasn't been much forward progress since then.

If I truly hated ESO I wouldn't have ever bothered coming on these forums. I would have just walked away. Loving a videogame doesn't mean you're blind to its faults.

Also, most of my ideas are about additions to ESO, not alterations. They're about how ESO can grow and change. But that might be splitting straws and isn't really the point of this thread which is the Champion System.

I think using the Champion System as the main leveling system is a mistake. For me personally it just doesn't "feel" like it's an Elder Scrolls leveling system. To me, it makes ESO feel too much like some other franchise. So @NewBlacksmurf is right that my primary concern with the Champion System is cosmetic,

@Uriel_Nocturne that there will be some farther reaching repercussions due to Champion System. It will create a greater sense of elitism and the fact that alts will be go from level 49 to max level in the blink of a moment will give players a sense of false accomplishment. A player gong from 49 to max will miss out on all the skill points and experience (not EXP... experience), that post level 50 brings could lead to groups being even more weary of other players than they have been previously.

Mostly though, for me, it just doesn't feel appropriate for an Elder Scrolls game.

Gidorick · June 2016

Vigarr wrote: »

I'm welcoming this with open arms as I hate grinding and the XP needed to get to VR16 naturally would mean another years worth of play for me.

So a solution is to just give players the levels? I just disagree with that @Vigarr . I think the problems many had with Vet Ranks was because there wasn't content there to support the leveling. Sure we had Silver and Gold but that was just a redundancy of content.

With DLCs and such players could have fun playing new, exciting content for that second year's worth of play.

So what are you going to do now that you've reached max level? PVP?

NewBlacksmurf · June 2016

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

I think @Uriel_Nocturne and @Robbmrp that you all are taking this OP and moving it to something completely different.

The topic doesn't agree with cosmetically converting VR levels to numeric levels in the same functionality as the Vet system.
The topic is suggesting that the current attempt to display requirements and NPC difficulty as well as character progression from the VR system as a CP level isn't desired and feels done wrong.

Its not anything around VR levels staying character specific and being character levels 50-66 (which by the way VR wasn't even a character level)

*I just wanted to clarify that you don't agree but perhaps you all as well as I feel that displaying CP is wrong. Just that, and nothing else.

I disagree. Even the OP has agreed with us on the content in this thread and the detrimental effects it's having on the game.

Even if the display of the CP totals were the core issue at hand, that in itself opens up an entirely new host of issues directly related to that display.

Some of those are also mentioned in https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/269331/cp-displays-negative-side-effects#latest <--- this thread.

The elitism is starting to rear its ugly head, just as was forewarned in the PTS. And that's only one issue around displaying the CP totals. There are more, and the firestorm is already starting.

While I know I sound like some lunatic "doomsayer", the truth of the matter is that it's starting. It is really happening.

And it is all tied back to the insistence that Vet Ranks needed to be removed, and the very vocal minority was able to convince Zenimax that an "only CP progression end-game" was somehow a good idea.

The related aftereffects are inseparable from the root cause brought forth by @Gidorick .

@Uriel_Nocturne

I read Gid's comment....I think my understanding was in-line with his later comment.
the rest of your comments tho.....

The vocal groups aren't why VR was sought to be removed. I would also go as far as specifically saying that ZOS, once again, went out on a limb and took upon themselves to do a VR to CP conversion.

NO ONE ASKED FOR THAT

Groups did ask for
-removal of VR entirely
-or to actually keep VR but make it an actual character level, per character.

we ended up with neither and something more problematic even if you leave out elitism.

Literally if you go back to the original threads as well as if you were around during closed beta discussions, the problems with VR as far as the vocal groups have been:

-ZOS messed up in VR and instead of keeping it locked to PvP, they tried to do more without supporting content.
All they needed to do is wait....leave VR as PvP only and when Craglorn dropped, they woulda/coulda either considered it 50 content and left well enough alone or to some extent, added 2-5 more character levels but I've not seen any interest in them doing that.

-VR content isn't actually content from VR1-10 (and no one asked for silver and gold zones....they did ask for the ability to have access to other factions quests, but silver and gold is not that.)

Then CP which came as a passive when at the time we also thought VR was just going to be removed.
We later learned from ZOS that it was so intertwined that they didn't know how to remove it and wanted to delay the removal. And so now....they just didn't even try to remove it, but instead, kept the insanity and hoped to mask some of it by moving skill and stat points down to pre VR and basically added a "0" to VR levels and moved code to CP.

Miszou · June 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

I for one was a big fan of Vet rank removal, mostly because I like to play alts. I do get the concerns though about making CP public. I think a better way to do it would simply have all level characters display "level 50" or "Max Level" or "veteran" rather than show CP numbers. I am also concerned because the CP requirement for group requests has already started. More than once I say," LF 501 CP tank for gold key" last night in zone. Doesn't personally affect me because I am at cap and rarely pug, but I question whether it is good for the overall health of the game.

^ This.

And not only that, but because of the way Champion Points accrue, having a lot of champion points is no actual measure of ability at all.

I've been doing nothing but tanking on a DK for the past 6 months. So now I can roll a sorc, hit 50 in a couple of days and run around with 450 CP and no idea what I'm doing.

Also, requiring a 501 CP tank for any but 2 dungeons (and even that is arguably not necessary for those 2) is just dumb. Beyond dumb.

SirAndy · June 2016

I had the same feeling initially but i've already gotten used to it.

Joined a pug group last night in Craglorn to do the Spellscar quest (since it requires 4 players to open that door) and i only briefly glanced over the CP of the other players *after* we were done.

Fun was had by all, which is the important part.

vyndral13preub18_ESO · June 2016

I would argue it actually feel more like an elder scrolls leveling system then anything else they have done. I 'level' i get a point to put in a colored tree that makes something i do better.

Jennifur_Vultee · June 2016

The simple solution was obvious but some people hated VR with a passion and would accept nothing less than the rebranding of VR that they got. Zenimax could have done something like this...

Keep the current VR leveling structure in place, a new player leveling from level 49 becomes VR1.

A player on an alt that levels to VR1 could be given the option to jump to the players highest VR level or continue to level normally as if there was no change. If they chose to level normally they could reset that later for a fee, maybe 5000 gold or something to jump the alt to their max character VR level. That would have made people who don't want to actually play alts to max level happy and would have made people like me who wanted to play alts to max level happy.

What we got was a simple rebranding of VR to CP Ranks with everyone's alts auto jumping to max character level. We also got the associated visual eyesore that is Level 50 Champion Point XXX system...its not simple to read at a glance like the VR shield and number. CP as a leveling system is messy, introduces yet again another number bloat because hey 160 is bigger than 16 so it must be better. Its nothing but lip service to those who hated VR, a slap in the face to those who liked VR and introduces a system that feels cumbersome. I personally hate the conversion.

Gidorick · June 2016

Jennifur_Vultee wrote: »

The simple solution was obvious but some people hated VR with a passion and would accept nothing less than the rebranding of VR that they got. Zenimax could have done something like this...

Keep the current VR leveling structure in place, a new player leveling from level 49 becomes VR1.

A player on an alt that levels to VR1 could be given the option to jump to the players highest VR level or continue to level normally as if there was no change. If they chose to level normally they could reset that later for a fee, maybe 5000 gold or something to jump the alt to their max character VR level. That would have made people who don't want to actually play alts to max level happy and would have made people like me who wanted to play alts to max level happy.

What we got was a simple rebranding of VR to CP Ranks with everyone's alts auto jumping to max character level. We also got the associated visual eyesore that is Level 50 Champion Point XXX system...its not simple to read at a glance like the VR shield and number. CP as a leveling system is messy, introduces yet again another number bloat because hey 160 is bigger than 16 so it must be better. Its nothing but lip service to those who hated VR, a slap in the face to those who liked VR and introduces a system that feels cumbersome. I personally hate the conversion.

If you would have suggested this prior to the conversion @Jennifur_Vultee , I wouldn't have agreed. I very much think that games are meant to be played and that developers shouldn't just hand out progression. But now, I agree. Heck... I'd agree to allowing top level, top CP characters being sold in the crown store, if it meant CPs were kept as a tangential progression and not our main progression.

Lord_Eomer · June 2016

Conversion to Champion Points motivated me a lot and I am pushing my remaining 4 characters to Level 50..

This is one of most wanted change I am waiting on PS4

Gidorick · June 2016

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

I would argue it actually feel more like an elder scrolls leveling system then anything else they have done. I 'level' i get a point to put in a colored tree that makes something i do better.

I agree the user interface is more like Skyrim's skill trees @vyndral13preub18_ESO , I think that was their inspiration for the champion system. I think the champion system is fine as a side-system, but not as the main system of levels. In Skyrim the character leveling is very much like ESO level 1-50. However, Skyrim skill leveling is very much like the champion system. They are concurrent systems. You levels skills and when you've leveled enough skills your character levels up.

In ESO you level your character to 50... then you stop leveling your character and level your skills. VR and CP together was more similar to Skyrim.

In fact, I would be entirely cool with the whole system being retooled so that players earn CPs from the get go, CPs are character specific, and our level cap was raised to 80. That would be for another thread, though.

Waffennacht · June 2016

So is the problem cosmetic or is that there are too many levels? Or is it that some people are far stronger than you?

Gidorick · June 2016

Waffennacht wrote: »

So is the problem cosmetic or is that there are too many levels? Or is it that some people are far stronger than you?

@Waffennacht

My specific issue is mostly cosmetic which is effected by how many levels there are.

Gidorick wrote: »

I realize my complaints are largely cosmetic complaints but the CP level just doesn't "feel" like an Elder Scrolls level.

I don't PVP... I've never cared how powerful people are in relation to me.

Arato · June 2016

Robbmrp wrote: »

I'm with you there. Seeing a number ranging from 1-xxx in someones name looks a lot worse than V10 or something like that. They should have just converted the Vet Levels(63,64,65,66 etc) to normal levels like typical MMO's.

No, I like what they did better, makes it easier to play alts that way. Like I was sick of playing my tank built DK because the people I used to group with and tank for stopped playing. Playing solo as a tank DK is miserable. Takes forever to kill anything, would require completely regearing and leveling up light or medium armor (from 6) to change the build to something more solo play friendly.

With this change I could change over to another alt and not feel like I've lost 16VR's worth of grind for nothing.

bedlom · June 2016

I'm not feeling it either. Once again they are not listening to PTS testers at all.
First the @name nonsense and now this! Someone else (preferably someone who knows what they are doing with a TES title) needs to be in charge.
The current devs have no idea how to execute a good idea.
I kinda miss the old team now : (