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Hey! Zenimax!!! Focusing on PvP, doesn't mean forgetting other play styles!
Stoltverd
✭✭✭
I see that much of the game patch was focused on PvP:
Blocking Indicator.
Bow heavy attack indicator.
Removal of vr.
Changes in the skills.
Etc.
However all this changes were forced to the entire player base in all areas of the game.
TESO:TU is a very special MMORPG, not only because of it's unique mechanics, not because of the scope. But for the franchise it's part of.
TES games appeal to a very large and different group of people. There are ones that play TES because they want to fulfill a power fantasy, others just want to be the very top players, others want to see the landscapes, others want to roleplay. LET'S REMEMBER BARTLE'S TAXONOMY ZENIMAX Fellow game devs will know what am I talking about... Others can google it. I myself am an explorer and an achiever but i know much of the playerbase are killers/dominators (I hate Killers so much).
I understand that some changes have to be applied to the whole player base, like the skill changes or the removal of the veteran ranks since they are tied to the leveling system.
I understand that making the indicators toggleable is troublesome because it could give those that have it on an advantage in PvP.
However as I said... remember that there are other play styles and you should not forget them. You should CARE ABOUT US TOO AND RESPECT US.
I hate the heavy attack indicator for the bow, and also hate the blocking indicator. It gets in the way of my immersion (it actually takes me out of it) and also makes RP troublesome.
So... I hate them but I believe it could be difficult to make it toggleable...
WTF STOLTVERD??? MAKE UP YOUR MIND MAN!!!!
Relax, I have an idea:
Make the indicators automatically toggle ONLY in PvP zones. I believe it's hard but I also believe it wouldn't be so troublesome regarding to balance (that with so many changes to skills and the removal of vr I'm pretty sure it's the current focus)
Anyone have other ideas? Would love to read some!
Edit:
An idea by @GreenSoup2HoT:
"Those indicator's are awful. I'd rather a small UI icon in the bottom left or right corner's to tell me im blocking or charged up enough for a heavy attack."
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_GaryA @ZOS_TristanK
EDIT: Since I haven't seen anyone comment about the bow indicator, maybe not many people has noticed it, so let me show it to you:
Look how it even replaces completely the enchantment texture.
EDIT 2:
Note how the blocking indicator is misaligned in 3rd person and 1st person views. I know it has to be made this way, or it would difficult sight in 1st person view. however it also makes impossible for us roleplayers to even make up an excuse of why it's there in-universe.
Edited by Stoltverd on June 2, 2016 5:53AM Blocking Indicator.
Bow heavy attack indicator.
Removal of vr.
Changes in the skills.
Etc.
However all this changes were forced to the entire player base in all areas of the game.
TESO:TU is a very special MMORPG, not only because of it's unique mechanics, not because of the scope. But for the franchise it's part of.
TES games appeal to a very large and different group of people. There are ones that play TES because they want to fulfill a power fantasy, others just want to be the very top players, others want to see the landscapes, others want to roleplay. LET'S REMEMBER BARTLE'S TAXONOMY ZENIMAX Fellow game devs will know what am I talking about... Others can google it. I myself am an explorer and an achiever but i know much of the playerbase are killers/dominators (I hate Killers so much).
I understand that some changes have to be applied to the whole player base, like the skill changes or the removal of the veteran ranks since they are tied to the leveling system.
I understand that making the indicators toggleable is troublesome because it could give those that have it on an advantage in PvP.
However as I said... remember that there are other play styles and you should not forget them. You should CARE ABOUT US TOO AND RESPECT US.
I hate the heavy attack indicator for the bow, and also hate the blocking indicator. It gets in the way of my immersion (it actually takes me out of it) and also makes RP troublesome.
So... I hate them but I believe it could be difficult to make it toggleable...
WTF STOLTVERD??? MAKE UP YOUR MIND MAN!!!!
Relax, I have an idea:
Make the indicators automatically toggle ONLY in PvP zones. I believe it's hard but I also believe it wouldn't be so troublesome regarding to balance (that with so many changes to skills and the removal of vr I'm pretty sure it's the current focus)
Anyone have other ideas? Would love to read some!
Edit:
An idea by @GreenSoup2HoT:
"Those indicator's are awful. I'd rather a small UI icon in the bottom left or right corner's to tell me im blocking or charged up enough for a heavy attack."
@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_GaryA @ZOS_TristanK
EDIT: Since I haven't seen anyone comment about the bow indicator, maybe not many people has noticed it, so let me show it to you:
Look how it even replaces completely the enchantment texture.
EDIT 2:
Note how the blocking indicator is misaligned in 3rd person and 1st person views. I know it has to be made this way, or it would difficult sight in 1st person view. however it also makes impossible for us roleplayers to even make up an excuse of why it's there in-universe.
11
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Phelaen✭✭✭
the indicators are not cool, should be removed on both PVE and PVP
Vr removal and skill changes arent PVP minded perse
i do more PVE then PVP and am happy with both.
5 -
Stoltverd✭✭✭Many people find them useful. This is an MMORPG. Managing to strike a balance on an MMORPG ecosystem is hard but should be done.
The indicators would be useful for new PvP players for example!
I would LOVE to play PvP WITHOUT them, but as I already said, i see how that COULD bring balance issues.
That's why I proposed that they only appear in PvP zones.
Also I know that the skill changes and the vr removal isn't intended only for PvP players, but it IS minded for PvP players.2 -
FatKidHatchets✭✭✭Yup, clearly the power of stendarr shielding you in such glory it manifests is immersion breaking.
The eye of the Hircine being ingrained into the bow and forming a blessed gift noticable is immersion breaking.
Oh wait, nope. Just wasn't any effort put in to including it.
You hate stendarr don't block its like kneeling and praying to him when you take the stance. Not a fan of Hircine don't use a bow, its a tool he holds most sacred perhaps.
Now where exactly do you store your twenty stone siege that you can whip out in a jiffy?
3 -
Stoltverd✭✭✭Quoting myself:
"Note how the blocking indicator is misaligned in 3rd person and 1st person views. I know it has to be made this way, or it would difficult sight in 1st person view. however it also makes impossible for us roleplayers to even make up an excuse of why it's there in-universe."
BTW: I have NO idea what are you talking about...
Stendarr is the god of justice and luck. Also that's NOT his symbol AND to top it off my character is a mer and Stendarr is the apologist of men. Where the *** did you take that blocking is like praying to him? Oo
Also, hircine is the daedric prince of hunting... That doesn't mean that the bow is sacred to him/her.
I however find your gibberish amusing. learn your lore, don't make it up.Edited by Stoltverd on June 2, 2016 2:52AM0 -
DerAlleinTiger✭✭✭✭✭FatKidHatchets wrote: »Yup, clearly the power of stendarr shielding you in such glory it manifests is immersion breaking.
The eye of the Hircine being ingrained into the bow and forming a blessed gift noticable is immersion breaking.
Oh wait, nope. Just wasn't any effort put in to including it.
You hate stendarr don't block its like kneeling and praying to him when you take the stance. Not a fan of Hircine don't use a bow, its a tool he holds most sacred perhaps.
Now where exactly do you store your twenty stone siege that you can whip out in a jiffy?
I'm just going to repost the response someone gave you in the old poll on the PTS forums here. Because I really couldn't hope to be as thorough as they were.The thing with immersion is that it can mean different things to different people; for some, immersion is about realism (an in-world concept), or consistency (a narrative concept), while for others, it's about minimalism (an interface concept), or customisation (a personal concept). For me, immersion is all about consistency of the interface between the game world and the real world. I'm not bothered about realism, because my infinite invisible backpack with 40,000 steaks and a trebuchet or 10 is consistent with how the game world works. What I don't like is real world interface elements having a physical presence in the game world, unless there is a good narrative reason for them to be there. Floating health bars, icons, or combat text break immersion for me because it isn't internally consistent, and smudges the divide between the real world and the game world. But my HUD is full of interface elements; loot history, compass, quest trackers, buff trackers, resource bars, target frame bars, which for me does not break my immersion as it is fixed in place on my real world computer screen, and not impacting on the world beyond. And I don't mind in-world combat cues (telegraphs) either, because they are internally consistent within the game world. But this starts to fall down when some cues, like the shield, are attached to your own character and other cues (like a heavy attack, or chanelling) aren't. Then internal consistency is broken.0 -
Phelaen✭✭✭i don't think its minded for PVP players at all. you repeating yourself is not much of an argument for changing my mind.
i think the VR changes are just so newer customers have an easier time catching up. whether it be PVE or PVP.
1 -
Stoltverd✭✭✭Didn't even consider that idea. Why do you think that?
They were converted to champion points and levels if i recall correctly. Wouldn't that be late game as well and well... Unaffect new players.0 -
C0wrex✭✭✭✭One of the things I disliked in this patch are those indicators :S"We are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are; One equal temper of heroic hearts, made weak by time and fate, but strong in will, to strive, to seek and not to yield."
-Tennyson, Ulysses1 -
DerAlleinTiger✭✭✭✭✭Didn't even consider that idea. Why do you think that?
They were converted to champion points and levels if i recall correctly. Wouldn't that be late game as well and well... Unaffect new players.
I would actually agree with Phelaen. The VR removal is for everyone, regardless of PvP or PvE. It's MUCH easier and faster to level up CP than it was VR. Or at least it's a lot easier to get to 160 CP than it was VR16. Between the low XP costs of the CP levels and the enlightenment bonus.
I don't know if it's specifically for new players, but it does wind up benefiting them greatly. Think about it. Someone who's been playing for a really long might have several VR16 characters before the patch. Someone who was new would have had to level up every single character to VR16 to match them. With this system, they need only get their characters up to level 50 and at that point play any and all of them to get CP 160 and they're caught up. Much, much, MUCH faster.
And whether you're a PvPer waiting to jump into things once you max out, or a PvE'er waiting to jump into vet dungeons and trials, it's much easier to level up to 50 and take on all your CP.1 -
Stoltverd✭✭✭One of the things I disliked in this patch are those indicators :S
I was looking forward to EVERYTHING.
And then saw the indicators and logged off.DerAlleinTiger wrote: »Didn't even consider that idea. Why do you think that?
They were converted to champion points and levels if i recall correctly. Wouldn't that be late game as well and well... Unaffect new players.
I would actually agree with Phelaen. The VR removal is for everyone, regardless of PvP or PvE. It's MUCH easier and faster to level up CP than it was VR. Or at least it's a lot easier to get to 160 CP than it was VR16. Between the low XP costs of the CP levels and the enlightenment bonus.
I don't know if it's specifically for new players, but it does wind up benefiting them greatly. Think about it. Someone who's been playing for a really long might have several VR16 characters before the patch. Someone who was new would have had to level up every single character to VR16 to match them. With this system, they need only get their characters up to level 50 and at that point play any and all of them to get CP 160 and they're caught up. Much, much, MUCH faster.
And whether you're a PvPer waiting to jump into things once you max out, or a PvE'er waiting to jump into vet dungeons and trials, it's much easier to level up to 50 and take on all your CP.
I've been convinced.
[minor edit by user request]Edited by ZOS_CoriJ on June 2, 2016 2:19PM0 -
Melilotta✭✭✭I must admit I hate the block indicator. It's horribly annoying. It kills a large part of enjoyment I used to feel when fighting.
I suppose it looks OK with a shield, but with a staff or with daggers it's just stupid.Edited by Melilotta on June 2, 2016 4:41AM2 -
Stoltverd✭✭✭I must admit I hate the block indicator. It's horribly annoying. It kills a large part of enjoyment I used to feel when fighting.
I suppose it looks OK with a shield, but with a staff or with daggers it's just stupid.
But with a shield there is not even point in having it.
Apparently it was there already since before the patch, but only for PvP. or so i was told...
It should go completely... Put it back only for PvP where it serves a purpose.0 -
FatKidHatchets✭✭✭Quoting myself:
"Note how the blocking indicator is misaligned in 3rd person and 1st person views. I know it has to be made this way, or it would difficult sight in 1st person view. however it also makes impossible for us roleplayers to even make up an excuse of why it's there in-universe."
BTW: I have NO idea what are you talking about...
Stendarr is the god of justice and luck. Also that's NOT his symbol AND to top it off my character is a mer and Stendarr is the apologist of men. Where the *** did you take that blocking is like praying to him? Oo
Also, hircine is the daedric prince of hunting... That doesn't mean that the bow is sacred to him/her.
I however find your gibberish amusing. learn your lore, don't make it up.
Never actually roleplayed ey?
First of all the things suggested are ways to incorporate things into the immersion of roleplay. Come up with stuff that suits you. Then debate with oppposing beliefs. Omg you might actually roleplay and put rl down for a second.
Furthermore such roleplay can often lead to becoming lore. Use your imagination is what I was getting at. I am sorry you are the sort that can't put your own twist on things to try and spice it up.
Don't make it up? I am sorry I must have missed the Interview with Hircine where every belief he ever holds was catagorically listed and that it was unchangeable no matter how far forward or backward in time.
The lack of imagination and the fear many have to use theirs because they will be trampled on by someone tryna more or less bully their creativity is disgusting. I won't be responding further RL to this debate, its more fun IC.
You can reach my Nord Brekor who stands tall with his shield poised to defend against the blight of injustice with Stendarrs Glowy indicator of protection. He may be a bit intoxicated from his previous night of Blue Banekin Beer.
@DerAlleinTiger He specifically said it makes it hard to RP if you read the OPs post. But keep that quote fresh, might need to whip it out some more as people complain about other 'immersion' breaking features and I respond to them in kind.
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Stoltverd✭✭✭FatKidHatchets wrote: »Quoting myself:
"Note how the blocking indicator is misaligned in 3rd person and 1st person views. I know it has to be made this way, or it would difficult sight in 1st person view. however it also makes impossible for us roleplayers to even make up an excuse of why it's there in-universe."
BTW: I have NO idea what are you talking about...
Stendarr is the god of justice and luck. Also that's NOT his symbol AND to top it off my character is a mer and Stendarr is the apologist of men. Where the *** did you take that blocking is like praying to him? Oo
Also, hircine is the daedric prince of hunting... That doesn't mean that the bow is sacred to him/her.
I however find your gibberish amusing. learn your lore, don't make it up.
Never actually roleplayed ey?
First of all the things suggested are ways to incorporate things into the immersion of roleplay. Come up with stuff that suits you. Then debate with oppposing beliefs. Omg you might actually roleplay and put rl down for a second.
Furthermore such roleplay can often lead to becoming lore. Use your imagination is what I was getting at. I am sorry you are the sort that can't put your own twist on things to try and spice it up.
Don't make it up? I am sorry I must have missed the Interview with Hircine where every belief he ever holds was catagorically listed and that it was unchangeable no matter how far forward or backward in time.
The lack of imagination and the fear many have to use theirs because they will be trampled on by someone tryna more or less bully their creativity is disgusting. I won't be responding further RL to this debate, its more fun IC.
You can reach my Nord Brekor who stands tall with his shield poised to defend against the blight of injustice with Stendarrs Glowy indicator of protection. He may be a bit intoxicated from his previous night of Blue Banekin Beer.
@DerAlleinTiger He specifically said it makes it hard to RP if you read the OPs post. But keep that quote fresh, might need to whip it out some more as people complain about other 'immersion' breaking features and I respond to them in kind.
I do RP... However when I RP in a game that have established lore, a game that is part of a franchise, I aim to respect and be guided by that lore. If not i just play D20. No lore, no prob. However i like lore. I like it a lot.
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GreenSoup2HoT✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Those indicator's are awful. I'd rather a small UI icon in the bottom left or right corner's to tell me im blocking or charged up enough for a heavy attack.PS4 NA DC1 -
Tonnopesce✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't think that the indicators are made for a specific group of players, they are bad for everyone, in pvp when i AC skills with block that awful "magic shield" pops out, and while it can be good on enemies i know when i'm blocking.
https://youtu.be/yxpW2ltDNow
This specific issue imho has nothing to do with the Taxonomy, you are assuming that is made for killers but not everyone in the pvp comunity are killers, i believe that there are more socializers and archivers there, the killers like myself are not so many.
Anyway i aeree with the fact that is a "bad feature"Edited by Tonnopesce on June 2, 2016 6:21AMSignature1 -
Stoltverd✭✭✭Love EC so much!
And I agree. It is useful in PvP but even there... There is no reason to render it for ones player.0 -
Erondil✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lol the only change focused on PvP in your list is the block indicator, the rest are mostly made for PvE or for both. Also let me remind you how many PvP DLCs came out? And how many PvE/questing? Aheem yeah thats what I thought.
When it comes to skill changes, surely there is some made for PvP(shield changes etc) but the lead combat designer is more oriented towards PvE. Just need to see this post link or even at how slowly PvP dedicated skills and sets are getting fixed (willow's path bugged since september 2015; clouding swarm completely unusable since thieves guild and even more now)Edited by Erondil on June 2, 2016 6:55AM~retired~
EU server, former Zerg Squad and Banana Squad officer
Dennegor NB AD, AvA 50 Grand Overlord 24/05/2016
rekt you NB AD, AvA 32
Erondil Sorc AD, AvA 23
Denne the Banana Slayer NB EP, AvA 14
Darth Dennegor lv50 Stamina NB DC, AvA 19
Youtube Channel1 -
Yolokin_Swagonborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lol except the block indicator nothing in your list is a change only made for PvP. Also let me remind you how many PvP DLCs came out? And how many PvE/questing? Aheem yeah thats what I thought.
When it comes to skill changes, surely there is some made for PvP(shield changes etc) but the lead combat designer is more oriented towards PvE. Just need to see this post link or even at how slowly PvP dedicated skills and sets are getting fixed (willow's path bugged since september 2015; clouding swarm completely unusable since thieves guild and even more now)
Agreed. ZOS hasn't focused on PvP since launch. All we have gotten is leftovers from PvE. Even our imperial city turned out to be a huge PvE grindfest with white gold tower being a PvE experience. We all wanted to sit on the ruby thrones as emperors but no, we have to guild Clivia "Who Cares" Tharn through a bunch of boring mobs. PvE. It's all PvE.2 -
Erondil✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I meant those change arent made with PvP in mind, except the block indicator and a couple of skill changes. The rest and alot of skill/combat mechanic changes are made mainly with PvE in mind.~retired~
EU server, former Zerg Squad and Banana Squad officer
Dennegor NB AD, AvA 50 Grand Overlord 24/05/2016
rekt you NB AD, AvA 32
Erondil Sorc AD, AvA 23
Denne the Banana Slayer NB EP, AvA 14
Darth Dennegor lv50 Stamina NB DC, AvA 19
Youtube Channel0 -
Stoltverd✭✭✭Why do you think it's with PvE in mind.
Also, wouldn't the bow indicator make PvP unbalanced? It's the only weapon with a visual indicator for the heavy attack.0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DerAlleinTiger wrote: »Didn't even consider that idea. Why do you think that?
They were converted to champion points and levels if i recall correctly. Wouldn't that be late game as well and well... Unaffect new players.
I would actually agree with Phelaen. The VR removal is for everyone, regardless of PvP or PvE. It's MUCH easier and faster to level up CP than it was VR. Or at least it's a lot easier to get to 160 CP than it was VR16. Between the low XP costs of the CP levels and the enlightenment bonus.
I don't know if it's specifically for new players, but it does wind up benefiting them greatly. Think about it. Someone who's been playing for a really long might have several VR16 characters before the patch. Someone who was new would have had to level up every single character to VR16 to match them. With this system, they need only get their characters up to level 50 and at that point play any and all of them to get CP 160 and they're caught up. Much, much, MUCH faster.
And whether you're a PvPer waiting to jump into things once you max out, or a PvE'er waiting to jump into vet dungeons and trials, it's much easier to level up to 50 and take on all your CP.
Being faster to get to CP160 and top tier armor isn't "for everyone". Some people aren't interested in the express lane to max level.1 -
Duiwel✭✭✭✭✭
✭No PvPer minded the grind to VR16, it was mostly PvE players who did questing who complained as it took about a month of full questing to get to VR16 and they hated doing every quest over and over. Where as PvPers just went to Wrothgar, IC grinded for less than a week
I actually hope they redesign the bow completely so that it's more like Oblivion, Morrowind, Skyrim...
Make archery cool again
I have suggested something in February or January you might like though OP:
Separate the PvE and PvP skills completely ( what i mean by this is have the EXACT same skills for everything ) but different values for PvE / PvP. For example the shields lasting only 6 seconds was to counter shield stackers in PvP, but no one in PvE is going to complain if their tank or sorc dps in the dungeon is stacking shields and staying alive.... that means 1 less person to heal in the dungeon...
Wrecking Blow knocking back enemies was not a problem in PvE
Block cost increase in PvE is really unfriendly towards thanks
They should have made PvP have it's own separate skill section completely ( in the post I made ( forgive me but I am not looking for it I have over 1000 posts ) I suggested even just renaming the skills for PvP keep the icons and the # on the list the same so people can still associate them in the proper area ).
That way they can actually balance 2 different things and see which is more balanced eventually.
BUT in no way do they focus on PvP OP...
The damage balances they introduce also come from people who make complaints like this:" I was in a dungeon and X class was doing Y and he was doing more dps than the rest of us and he was suppose to heal" or whatever, then they take that into consideration in the future... Instead of thinking well maybe he has better gear, more CP, a good build?
Haven't checked out the new bow animations yet, will do so in the week or weekend. Wanna see what the new Assassin's League bow style looks like before I craft a new bow@Duiwel:Join ORDER OF SITHIS We're recruiting! PC EU"Dear Brother. I do not spread rumours. I create them..."0 -
Stoltverd✭✭✭No PvPer minded the grind to VR16, it was mostly PvE players who did questing who complained as it took about a month of full questing to get to VR16 and they hated doing every quest over and over. Where as PvPers just went to Wrothgar, IC grinded for less than a week
I actually hope they redesign the bow completely so that it's more like Oblivion, Morrowind, Skyrim...
Make archery cool again
I have suggested something in February or January you might like though OP:
Separate the PvE and PvP skills completely ( what i mean by this is have the EXACT same skills for everything ) but different values for PvE / PvP. For example the shields lasting only 6 seconds was to counter shield stackers in PvP, but no one in PvE is going to complain if their tank or sorc dps in the dungeon is stacking shields and staying alive.... that means 1 less person to heal in the dungeon...
Wrecking Blow knocking back enemies was not a problem in PvE
Block cost increase in PvE is really unfriendly towards thanks
They should have made PvP have it's own separate skill section completely ( in the post I made ( forgive me but I am not looking for it I have over 1000 posts ) I suggested even just renaming the skills for PvP keep the icons and the # on the list the same so people can still associate them in the proper area ).
That way they can actually balance 2 different things and see which is more balanced eventually.
BUT in no way do they focus on PvP OP...
The damage balances they introduce also come from people who make complaints like this:" I was in a dungeon and X class was doing Y and he was doing more dps than the rest of us and he was suppose to heal" or whatever, then they take that into consideration in the future... Instead of thinking well maybe he has better gear, more CP, a good build?
Haven't checked out the new bow animations yet, will do so in the week or weekend. Wanna see what the new Assassin's League bow style looks like before I craft a new bow
That idea is so good!
Would be a lot of work for Zenimax but i think everyone would be pleased.
Something similar was done with guild wars 1. When you arrived to PvP island many (if not all) skills changed.
Edit: Oh and the bow... I love archery in TES games... What you suggest would be so awesome... But i don't think it will happen.
The bow is one of my favorite weapons, and i'm afraid the indicator will stay since it seems not many people mind it. It looks so ugly for me, and breaks my immersion so much. Specially with enchanted bows.Edited by Stoltverd on June 2, 2016 7:27AM0 -
Stoltverd✭✭✭Sorry for the shameless bump but... Anybody knows why zenimax hasn't answered any of the myriad threads regarding this?0
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Lore_lai✭✭✭✭✭ZoS focusing on PvP?
Also, the bow heavy attack indicator has been there before DB.0