Does nobody else see how wrong this is? (craft bags)

AmberLaTerra · May 2016

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Did you stop to think that if so many people arent getting what you wish to point out it is because they dont agree or see it your way. You arent right just because you say you are.
Others have their own opinions about it.

The thing is though that there are a number of valid points I have which people are completely disregarding as being valid, even if those points being valid doesn't make me right it's still foolish of people not to recognize simple logic when it's presented to them, and the subtleties are being lost on so many people it's just sad.

Just quoting the last one to not have a wall of quotes.

The point is a lot of us do not see your points as wholly valid. A few years ago I saw similarly argued points in the game Runescape about free players wanting all kinds of things that sub players got and they made the arguments of how they pay with adds, or pay with the in game chance thing that was added and so forth.

It was shown to them in black and white that from fiscal reports that those adds and purchases from non sub players did not even cover the games server costs, it was subs that made the money there but they refused to accept the facts.

While we have no fiscal reports for ESO to say one way or another what money comes from subs and what comes from crown packs we can say without a doubt the subs are the more stable income. A small group of players who do not sub may buy crowns regularly, but the vast majority likely do not. That fact alone makes Subs a more valuable asset to EOS end of story.

To argue that crafting bag should go to all, or be in the crown shop as possibly the only crown purchase many players will ever make defeats the very purpose the idea of it being a perk to those players who are the most valuable asset and encouraging more players to sub by giving it a useful perk that is solely an item of convenience and in no way an advantage in game play.

Lucius_Aelius · May 2016

Volkodav wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

And those of us who buy content outright should not be relegated to being second class citizens to such an extent as this, if that's how they were going to have it then they never should have had different payment methods at all, and should have stuck with Subscriptions only. If they're going to have different payment options then there should be fairness in what is received with each, and the crafting bag is just too good of a perk for it to be fair to have it exclusive.

There is fairness. You have the option to pay significantly less to play the same game.
Sorry. Lower price tag, fewer features. If you pay the same amount or more, then just subscribe. It's not rocket surgery.

We who bought content directly shouldn't have to Subscribe just to get access to something that should be available to anyone in the crown store, it undermines the entire notion of having different payment methods, and after having spent so much money buying crowns it would be a waste to just subscribe now, I wouldn't have spent crowns on the same things if I were subscribed and the crowns I did spend would be invalidated by making that change, which I refuse to do.

What you did in the past doesn't matter. This isn't a reward.

It's not entitlement to expect to get my money's worth (which is what all Subscribers have been whining about all this time), and switching to a subscription after buying so much directly is utterly wasteful and not at all worth what I've paid for it. ZOS trying to incentivize paying customers to waste our money just to get a single game-changing perk is underhanded, and I'll quit the game sooner than subscribe if ZOS values me so little as a a customer to try and do so.

You got your money's worth. Nothing you bought came with a promised reward in the fine print.
Subscribing now give you access to future content and perks, they aren't asking you to pay for you DLC a second time or applying monthly payments retroactively. You haven't wasted anything.

You're completely missing the point of course, but that's not surprising since so many people are. ZOS offering new content for Subscribers only after so many people already bought so much undermines the entire idea of different payment methods, now just to get this one perk I'd have to Subscribe and keep subscribing, which invalidates all the money I've already spent. And no that's absolutely not irrelevant, it couldn't be more relevant, and ZOS trying to incentivize people to waste their hard-earned money because they decided to change the dynamic this late in the game is entirely underhanded and shows a complete lack of respect to us as customers.

If you still can't understand that then I'm done trying to explain it to you, but you and many others are oversimplifying this issue by saying such things, there's a bigger picture you just refuse to see, and I have better things to do than trying to give sight to the blind.

Did you stop to think that if so many people arent getting what you wish to point out it is because they dont agree or see it your way. You arent right just because you say you are.
Others have their own opinions about it.

The thing is though that there are a number of valid points I have which people are completely disregarding as being valid, even if those points being valid doesn't make me right it's still foolish of people not to recognize simple logic when it's presented to them, and the subtleties are being lost on so many people it's just sad.

It's still that those people dont "have" to see your points as valid,even though you do.Do you always recognize someone else's theories as valid?
When people dont see eye to eye,they have to see it in the end,and accept that. I do that occasionally.
When someone wants to argue their point into the dust,eventually,I have to just give in and let them have the day.No skin off my back.

Of course people don't have to see my points as valid, but a valid point is valid whether it's recognized as being such or not, and it's worth at least a little time arguing my point, which I've done and then some.

Volkodav · May 2016

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

And those of us who buy content outright should not be relegated to being second class citizens to such an extent as this, if that's how they were going to have it then they never should have had different payment methods at all, and should have stuck with Subscriptions only. If they're going to have different payment options then there should be fairness in what is received with each, and the crafting bag is just too good of a perk for it to be fair to have it exclusive.

There is fairness. You have the option to pay significantly less to play the same game.
Sorry. Lower price tag, fewer features. If you pay the same amount or more, then just subscribe. It's not rocket surgery.

We who bought content directly shouldn't have to Subscribe just to get access to something that should be available to anyone in the crown store, it undermines the entire notion of having different payment methods, and after having spent so much money buying crowns it would be a waste to just subscribe now, I wouldn't have spent crowns on the same things if I were subscribed and the crowns I did spend would be invalidated by making that change, which I refuse to do.

What you did in the past doesn't matter. This isn't a reward.

It's not entitlement to expect to get my money's worth (which is what all Subscribers have been whining about all this time), and switching to a subscription after buying so much directly is utterly wasteful and not at all worth what I've paid for it. ZOS trying to incentivize paying customers to waste our money just to get a single game-changing perk is underhanded, and I'll quit the game sooner than subscribe if ZOS values me so little as a a customer to try and do so.

You got your money's worth. Nothing you bought came with a promised reward in the fine print.
Subscribing now give you access to future content and perks, they aren't asking you to pay for you DLC a second time or applying monthly payments retroactively. You haven't wasted anything.

You're completely missing the point of course, but that's not surprising since so many people are. ZOS offering new content for Subscribers only after so many people already bought so much undermines the entire idea of different payment methods, now just to get this one perk I'd have to Subscribe and keep subscribing, which invalidates all the money I've already spent. And no that's absolutely not irrelevant, it couldn't be more relevant, and ZOS trying to incentivize people to waste their hard-earned money because they decided to change the dynamic this late in the game is entirely underhanded and shows a complete lack of respect to us as customers.

If you still can't understand that then I'm done trying to explain it to you, but you and many others are oversimplifying this issue by saying such things, there's a bigger picture you just refuse to see, and I have better things to do than trying to give sight to the blind.

Did you stop to think that if so many people arent getting what you wish to point out it is because they dont agree or see it your way. You arent right just because you say you are.
Others have their own opinions about it.

The thing is though that there are a number of valid points I have which people are completely disregarding as being valid, even if those points being valid doesn't make me right it's still foolish of people not to recognize simple logic when it's presented to them, and the subtleties are being lost on so many people it's just sad.

It's still that those people dont "have" to see your points as valid,even though you do.Do you always recognize someone else's theories as valid?
When people dont see eye to eye,they have to see it in the end,and accept that. I do that occasionally.
When someone wants to argue their point into the dust,eventually,I have to just give in and let them have the day.No skin off my back.

Of course people don't have to see my points as valid, but a valid point is valid whether it's recognized as being such or not, and it's worth at least a little time arguing my point, which I've done and then some.

This much is true.You have every right to argue your point,my friend.Not up for debate.

I'm glad to see it didnt get you going into the bad behavior barrel,as so many other people here drawl into.

FriedEggSandwich · May 2016

This thread is proof to me that zos made a good decision here. They've hit on something that players really desire that will encourage people to sub, and they did it in a way that doesn't change the game or make any players more powerful, it doesn't even advance progress; it's just a quality of life improvement. Those who chose not to sub made an economic decision; they weighed up the cost vs. benefit and decided that it was better value for money if they didn't sub but spent crowns instead. Why else would you make that decision? All zos have done is added value to the subscription, which is good because most believe it wasn't valuable enough before. All the non-subs have to be annoyed about is that zos changed the conditions that those players based their economic decision on; it was once potentially better value not to sub, but now it's not so clear cut. They are perfectly entitled to do this, especially if the change isn't even to the detriment of the non-subs, but simply to the benefit of the other group of players, namely the subs.

Has it occurred to the complainers that subs buy and spend crowns too? 1500crowns/month doesn't go very far. I personally purchased every dlc with bought crowns, and purchased almost every costume, pet and mount. And I still remain subbed. Bought dlc isn't wasted if you sub, it just gives you the freedom to unsub at some point in the future without losing access to game content.

So thank you zos for this quality of life improvement; I feel like my financial commitment is being rewarded. Now can you please get and fix some bugs?

NewBlacksmurf · May 2016

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Did you stop to think that if so many people arent getting what you wish to point out it is because they dont agree or see it your way. You arent right just because you say you are.
Others have their own opinions about it.

The thing is though that there are a number of valid points I have which people are completely disregarding as being valid, even if those points being valid doesn't make me right it's still foolish of people not to recognize simple logic when it's presented to them, and the subtleties are being lost on so many people it's just sad.

Just quoting the last one to not have a wall of quotes.

The point is a lot of us do not see your points as wholly valid. A few years ago I saw similarly argued points in the game Runescape about free players wanting all kinds of things that sub players got and they made the arguments of how they pay with adds, or pay with the in game chance thing that was added and so forth.

It was shown to them in black and white that from fiscal reports that those adds and purchases from non sub players did not even cover the games server costs, it was subs that made the money there but they refused to accept the facts.

While we have no fiscal reports for ESO to say one way or another what money comes from subs and what comes from crown packs we can say without a doubt the subs are the more stable income. A small group of players who do not sub may buy crowns regularly, but the vast majority likely do not. That fact alone makes Subs a more valuable asset to EOS end of story.

To argue that crafting bag should go to all, or be in the crown shop as possibly the only crown purchase many players will ever make defeats the very purpose the idea of it being a perk to those players who are the most valuable asset and encouraging more players to sub by giving it a useful perk that is solely an item of convenience and in no way an advantage in game play.

@AmberLaTerra

Well wait tho....
The whole point of ESO Plus per ZOS is for those who want to sub and not have micro transactions to have that type of experience.
The whole point of ESO Plus being optional per ZOS is that it doesn't require a subscription for base game updates and features (which this is listed as per ZOS' PTS patch notes) so should not the bag exist for non-subscribers but just be much better for ESO plus subscribers?

I mean let's be honest, we aren't talking about an item, we are discussing what ZOS has labelled as a base game update feature which per the Tamriel Unlimited announced "will" include base game update features.

Now to access this, I'm not saying it should be without effort via in-game or via crowns.
I agree it should not be be unlimited but it by all means, per ZOS' written info and description be accessible without a sub.

That's not an opinion tho
I don't think many are clearly communicating this, but it's the actual context

Volkodav · May 2016

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

This thread is proof to me that zos made a good decision here. They've hit on something that players really desire that will encourage people to sub, and they did it in a way that doesn't change the game or make any players more powerful, it doesn't even advance progress; it's just a quality of life improvement. Those who chose not to sub made an economic decision; they weighed up the cost vs. benefit and decided that it was better value for money if they didn't sub but spent crowns instead. Why else would you make that decision? All zos have done is added value to the subscription, which is good because most believe it wasn't valuable enough before. All the non-subs have to be annoyed about is that zos changed the conditions that those players based their economic decision on; it was once potentially better value not to sub, but now it's not so clear cut. They are perfectly entitled to do this, especially if the change isn't even to the detriment of the non-subs, but simply to the benefit of the other group of players, namely the subs.

Has it occurred to the complainers that subs buy and spend crowns too? 1500crowns/month doesn't go very far. I personally purchased every dlc with bought crowns, and purchased almost every costume, pet and mount. And I still remain subbed. Bought dlc isn't wasted if you sub, it just gives you the freedom to unsub at some point in the future without losing access to game content.

So thank you zos for this quality of life improvement; I feel like my financial commitment is being rewarded. Now can you please get and fix some bugs?

I really enjoyed reading your comment.Well written,and easy to understand.Plus,it isnt filled with acerbic comments,etc.Just good solid truth.

AmberLaTerra · May 2016

Where did they say the bag is a "base game update." It is coming out in a mixed batch of a DLC, Based game updates, and a perk for those with ESO+.

By your logic one could argue because it is listed with the DLC as well as the base game update it is therefor part of the DLC and thereby not a base game update hence making your case of it being something all should gain access to per ZOS' own terms of having no need to sub for base game updates.

It is listed in the base game patch, but no where is it stated that everything in that patch is meant as a base game update. There is a big difference between listing all content that is in a patch and what of that content is truly base game only.

It is a loophole ZOS is using in the difference between a patch and an update, but that in no way is something that other games do not do as well. They also have the right to go back on what they said in the past at any time they wish, they may have said that in the past, but the fact is it was never a binding contract to give all things free. You could have people argue much of the crown store could be free what way as it is not part of the DLC packs so therefor is "Base game".

NewBlacksmurf · May 2016

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Where did they say the bag is a "base game update." It is coming out in a mixed batch of a DLC, Based game updates, and a perk for those with ESO+.

By your logic one could argue because it is listed with the DLC as well as the base game update it is therefor part of the DLC and thereby not a base game update hence making your case of it being something all should gain access to per ZOS' own terms of having no need to sub for base game updates.

It is listed in the base game patch, but no where is it stated that everything in that patch is meant as a base game update. There is a big difference between listing all content that is in a patch and what of that content is truly base game only.

It is a loophole ZOS is using in the difference between a patch and an update, but that in no way is something that other games do not do as well. They also have the right to go back on what they said in the past at any time they wish, they may have said that in the past, but the fact is it was never a binding contract to give all things free. You could have people argue much of the crown store could be free what way as it is not part of the DLC packs so therefor is "Base game".

@AmberLaTerra
Right here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2909368/#Comment_2909368

AmberLaTerra · May 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Where did they say the bag is a "base game update." It is coming out in a mixed batch of a DLC, Based game updates, and a perk for those with ESO+.

By your logic one could argue because it is listed with the DLC as well as the base game update it is therefor part of the DLC and thereby not a base game update hence making your case of it being something all should gain access to per ZOS' own terms of having no need to sub for base game updates.

It is listed in the base game patch, but no where is it stated that everything in that patch is meant as a base game update. There is a big difference between listing all content that is in a patch and what of that content is truly base game only.

It is a loophole ZOS is using in the difference between a patch and an update, but that in no way is something that other games do not do as well. They also have the right to go back on what they said in the past at any time they wish, they may have said that in the past, but the fact is it was never a binding contract to give all things free. You could have people argue much of the crown store could be free what way as it is not part of the DLC packs so therefor is "Base game".

@AmberLaTerra
Right here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2909368/#Comment_2909368

Yes, that says base game patch, not base game update. Trust me that single word is enough for lawyers to have a field day backing EOS on this if they had to. That is all it takes for them to cover themselves safely and in no way have violated what they had promised despite the fact they are not bound to keep that promise anyway as it is not a binding contract in the first place.

NewBlacksmurf · May 2016

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Where did they say the bag is a "base game update." It is coming out in a mixed batch of a DLC, Based game updates, and a perk for those with ESO+.

By your logic one could argue because it is listed with the DLC as well as the base game update it is therefor part of the DLC and thereby not a base game update hence making your case of it being something all should gain access to per ZOS' own terms of having no need to sub for base game updates.

It is listed in the base game patch, but no where is it stated that everything in that patch is meant as a base game update. There is a big difference between listing all content that is in a patch and what of that content is truly base game only.

It is a loophole ZOS is using in the difference between a patch and an update, but that in no way is something that other games do not do as well. They also have the right to go back on what they said in the past at any time they wish, they may have said that in the past, but the fact is it was never a binding contract to give all things free. You could have people argue much of the crown store could be free what way as it is not part of the DLC packs so therefor is "Base game".

@AmberLaTerra
Right here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2909368/#Comment_2909368

Yes, that says base game patch, not base game update. Trust me that single word is enough for lawyers to have a field day backing EOS on this if they had to. That is all it takes for them to cover themselves safely and in no way have violated what they had promised despite the fact they are not bound to keep that promise anyway as it is not a binding contract in the first place.

@AmberLaTerra
I really don't think it's a lawyer thing. A couple ppl keep saying that to me. It's an ethics thing
Just pointing out yet again, where ZOS says one thing and then adds a money grab that is questionable or that conflicts with previously clarified and seemingly committed upon statements.

But you see it too it's described as a feature under the new base game updates but on the site those things are suppose to be accessible in part (not exact) without a sub.

That's all I'm saying. It's pretty messed up that another group of customers gets caught up in ZOS flip-flopping.

iam117 · May 2016

#lockthisthread

AmberLaTerra · May 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Where did they say the bag is a "base game update." It is coming out in a mixed batch of a DLC, Based game updates, and a perk for those with ESO+.

By your logic one could argue because it is listed with the DLC as well as the base game update it is therefor part of the DLC and thereby not a base game update hence making your case of it being something all should gain access to per ZOS' own terms of having no need to sub for base game updates.

It is listed in the base game patch, but no where is it stated that everything in that patch is meant as a base game update. There is a big difference between listing all content that is in a patch and what of that content is truly base game only.

It is a loophole ZOS is using in the difference between a patch and an update, but that in no way is something that other games do not do as well. They also have the right to go back on what they said in the past at any time they wish, they may have said that in the past, but the fact is it was never a binding contract to give all things free. You could have people argue much of the crown store could be free what way as it is not part of the DLC packs so therefor is "Base game".

@AmberLaTerra
Right here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2909368/#Comment_2909368

Yes, that says base game patch, not base game update. Trust me that single word is enough for lawyers to have a field day backing EOS on this if they had to. That is all it takes for them to cover themselves safely and in no way have violated what they had promised despite the fact they are not bound to keep that promise anyway as it is not a binding contract in the first place.

@AmberLaTerra
I really don't think it's a lawyer thing. A couple ppl keep saying that to me. It's an ethics thing
Just pointing out yet again, where ZOS says one thing and then adds a money grab that is questionable or that conflicts with previously clarified and seemingly committed upon statements.

But you see it too it's described as a feature under the new base game updates but on the site those things are suppose to be accessible in part (not exact) without a sub.

That's all I'm saying. It's pretty messed up that another group of customers gets caught up in ZOS flip-flopping.

To put it very simply in today's world Business and Ethics do not mix. All that matters is the bottom line in profits made. So trying to argue it from an ethical standpoint is like trying to argue with Apple selling Iphones a $650 when they make them in china for $35.

The other fact is if you really want to go with an Ethical argument, how is it ethical to have people pay for ESO+ and not get a single perk that is actually worth that payment? Basically you want them to be ethical in one aspect while not being ethical in another aspect.

Edit: And I see it listed under "Base game patch" not "Base Game Updates" as I said they are two completely different things.

NewBlacksmurf · May 2016

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Where did they say the bag is a "base game update." It is coming out in a mixed batch of a DLC, Based game updates, and a perk for those with ESO+.

By your logic one could argue because it is listed with the DLC as well as the base game update it is therefor part of the DLC and thereby not a base game update hence making your case of it being something all should gain access to per ZOS' own terms of having no need to sub for base game updates.

It is listed in the base game patch, but no where is it stated that everything in that patch is meant as a base game update. There is a big difference between listing all content that is in a patch and what of that content is truly base game only.

It is a loophole ZOS is using in the difference between a patch and an update, but that in no way is something that other games do not do as well. They also have the right to go back on what they said in the past at any time they wish, they may have said that in the past, but the fact is it was never a binding contract to give all things free. You could have people argue much of the crown store could be free what way as it is not part of the DLC packs so therefor is "Base game".

@AmberLaTerra
Right here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2909368/#Comment_2909368

Yes, that says base game patch, not base game update. Trust me that single word is enough for lawyers to have a field day backing EOS on this if they had to. That is all it takes for them to cover themselves safely and in no way have violated what they had promised despite the fact they are not bound to keep that promise anyway as it is not a binding contract in the first place.

@AmberLaTerra
I really don't think it's a lawyer thing. A couple ppl keep saying that to me. It's an ethics thing
Just pointing out yet again, where ZOS says one thing and then adds a money grab that is questionable or that conflicts with previously clarified and seemingly committed upon statements.

But you see it too it's described as a feature under the new base game updates but on the site those things are suppose to be accessible in part (not exact) without a sub.

That's all I'm saying. It's pretty messed up that another group of customers gets caught up in ZOS flip-flopping.

To put it very simply in today's world Business and Ethics do not mix. All that matters is the bottom line in profits made. So trying to argue it from an ethical standpoint is like trying to argue with Apple selling Iphones a $650 when they make them in china for $35.

The other fact is if you really want to go with an Ethical argument, how is it ethical to have people pay for ESO+ and not get a single perk that is actually worth that payment? Basically you want them to be ethical in one aspect while not being ethical in another aspect.

Edit: And I see it listed under "Base game patch" not "Base Game Updates" as I said they are two completely different things.

@AmberLaTerra
If business and ethics don't mix then bottom lines and profits don't matter cause the company won't exist for long

Your analogy isn't relating to the discussion at all. ZOS doesn't make ESO plus and a crafting bag or the ESO plus benefits aren't items or virtual items. It's all features. I get what you're attempting to convey but it's not comparable because of you buy a phone, it's literally yours. The use is a service but the creation of the hardware has a cost and once sold, it's gone. It's ethical and not against morals to create a product and sale it. It's not ethical to state and market one thing and change to try and make a profit that conflicts with a publicly made statement prior.

As far as your other comment on ethics posed as a question....It's very ethical for ZOS to offer an "option" to subscribe for access to features and content vs no access to either and only the base game or to opt to buy access independent of a subscription. The perceived value is specific to each individual customer.

No, I'm not asking them to be ethical and unethical. That use isn't the definition of that term.
It doesn't mean what you think it does or you're judging using it wrong

I think you meant to say is this....your interpretation is that I'm asking them to offer customer perceived value to one where you don't recieve it as value. Or maybe you're trying to say something else. I'm not sure but the use is very wrong.

Ethics is a moral principal and how an action and decision relate to those moral principals. It has nothing to do with value add or perceived values.

A base game patch is how it's added to PTS or live or defining what's to come. The Base game update is what was added or what has occurred They are the same thing and not different but they define the state of being on the features being changed or updated. Base is the part that relates to the feature which as written by ZOS is always not locked behind a sub requirement.

The effects of the base features are impacted by ESO plus which is how "benefits are established".

So with all DLC updates, the features are available to us all but access to the zone or instance is locked. The gear and mats tho are not. Difference there is this is content.

So it's not described or listed in the content section but for the sake of argument, let's say it as or its a typo.
Then this changes little because even content is in part, available without a sub via some other means

Like a player getting loot from new content and then trading it or listing it in a guild store.

Anyways, the point that ZOS lists this as a feature in the base game section follows the context of the OP topic. In part, the bag should exist in some other form outside of ESO plus but ESO plus should further enhance the bag as it does today.

Easily_Lost · May 2016

ZOS just put Crafting Bags in the Crown Store for 50,000 crowns. Then people can't say it's not available.

Bluepitbull13 · May 2016

hagermanj wrote: »

ZOS just put Crafting Bags in the Crown Store for 50,000 crowns. Then people can't say it's not available.

dude I wish it was that easy, people are stomping their feet and throwing fits at the dromatha mount being 4k crowns lolol. Picture crafting bag at 50k crowns, there will be riots lmaol

Tommy1979AtWar · May 2016

FriedEggSandwich wrote: »

This thread is proof to me that zos made a good decision here. They've hit on something that players really desire that will encourage people to sub, and they did it in a way that doesn't change the game or make any players more powerful, it doesn't even advance progress; it's just a quality of life improvement. Those who chose not to sub made an economic decision; they weighed up the cost vs. benefit and decided that it was better value for money if they didn't sub but spent crowns instead. Why else would you make that decision? All zos have done is added value to the subscription, which is good because most believe it wasn't valuable enough before. All the non-subs have to be annoyed about is that zos changed the conditions that those players based their economic decision on; it was once potentially better value not to sub, but now it's not so clear cut. They are perfectly entitled to do this, especially if the change isn't even to the detriment of the non-subs, but simply to the benefit of the other group of players, namely the subs.

Has it occurred to the complainers that subs buy and spend crowns too? 1500crowns/month doesn't go very far. I personally purchased every dlc with bought crowns, and purchased almost every costume, pet and mount. And I still remain subbed. Bought dlc isn't wasted if you sub, it just gives you the freedom to unsub at some point in the future without losing access to game content.

So thank you zos for this quality of life improvement; I feel like my financial commitment is being rewarded. Now can you please get and fix some bugs?

Very well put and an extremely fair and balanced statement, it really echoes what's been said multiple times on this thread too with regards to it being for the most part a very civil and mature discussion from both sides of the chosen payment model.

Tommy1979AtWar · May 2016

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

AmberLaTerra wrote: »

Where did they say the bag is a "base game update." It is coming out in a mixed batch of a DLC, Based game updates, and a perk for those with ESO+.

By your logic one could argue because it is listed with the DLC as well as the base game update it is therefor part of the DLC and thereby not a base game update hence making your case of it being something all should gain access to per ZOS' own terms of having no need to sub for base game updates.

It is listed in the base game patch, but no where is it stated that everything in that patch is meant as a base game update. There is a big difference between listing all content that is in a patch and what of that content is truly base game only.

It is a loophole ZOS is using in the difference between a patch and an update, but that in no way is something that other games do not do as well. They also have the right to go back on what they said in the past at any time they wish, they may have said that in the past, but the fact is it was never a binding contract to give all things free. You could have people argue much of the crown store could be free what way as it is not part of the DLC packs so therefor is "Base game".

@AmberLaTerra
Right here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2909368/#Comment_2909368

Yes, that says base game patch, not base game update. Trust me that single word is enough for lawyers to have a field day backing EOS on this if they had to. That is all it takes for them to cover themselves safely and in no way have violated what they had promised despite the fact they are not bound to keep that promise anyway as it is not a binding contract in the first place.

@AmberLaTerra
I really don't think it's a lawyer thing. A couple ppl keep saying that to me. It's an ethics thing
Just pointing out yet again, where ZOS says one thing and then adds a money grab that is questionable or that conflicts with previously clarified and seemingly committed upon statements.

But you see it too it's described as a feature under the new base game updates but on the site those things are suppose to be accessible in part (not exact) without a sub.

That's all I'm saying. It's pretty messed up that another group of customers gets caught up in ZOS flip-flopping.

To put it very simply in today's world Business and Ethics do not mix. All that matters is the bottom line in profits made. So trying to argue it from an ethical standpoint is like trying to argue with Apple selling Iphones a $650 when they make them in china for $35.

The other fact is if you really want to go with an Ethical argument, how is it ethical to have people pay for ESO+ and not get a single perk that is actually worth that payment? Basically you want them to be ethical in one aspect while not being ethical in another aspect.

Edit: And I see it listed under "Base game patch" not "Base Game Updates" as I said they are two completely different things.

Just to interject here slightly, while I agree with your sentiments regarding business and ethics not mixing etc etc I can also see the side which is being conveyed too, to draw on my own personal feelings and add some reasoning to what I've already stated in earlier posts...

firstly, I don't require, want or need the crafting bags. Some of the past business decisions from zos which I've personally seen have been what I would regard as unethical, they've in turn led me to the decision of no longer wishing to support the game or their studio further so I won't be subscribing or purchasing the bags anyway.
It's my own personal choice to do this and it's based solely on m,y feelings towards their behaviour and treatment of their customers.
I realise they're in a business to make money and bare no malice against them for their business decisions etc I just don't feel I want to support their studio any further as I believe in the long term it's damaging both to the community and the Elder Scrolls franchise, I'm not going to be debating this or any facts surrounding it as it's simply how I feel.

While I feel their decision and attempt to garner more subscriptions through the craft bags was a somewhat decent attempt in some respects and has no doubt led to a rise in subscriptions I believe it also fell flat in others. I feel it could have proven a better long term strategy to include both sides of the payment models, not with equallity regarding the exclusivity of the unlimited version but perhaps with a vanilla version which increased bag or bank space slightly.

I feel they've probably alienated more than a few B2P customers in their decision not to do this just as they did with myself and others on past decisions, from a business stand point I don't believe it's good business practice to run through and repeat the same mistakes over and over again and I think they are constantly leading us down the same path.

Today for instance with the new senche mount, 4000 crowns??, yes LOTS of people bought it, I've seen dozens and dozens of them but look at how many are saying "no way, not at that price" and "screw that zos you gotta be kidding".
Look at how many spoke up and said the same regarding the assistants and how many were refunded because of the misleading description of their accessibility options etc.

These are customers who from what I can see of the majority in the forum at least were willing to pay 2500 to 3000 crowns for that particular mount.
zos has now put many of those possible customers on their back heel and leaving them questioning zos' ethics AND business practice, it's not a good sign in my eyes and looks like history repeating itself yet again.

It begs the question of what happens if they start running out of customers quicker that they can entice them?
They lost hundreds after IC, more and more are leaving PvP, bugs and glitches are now making their way into PvE etc, the list goes on and on and the list of complaints is growing.

(somewhat interesting side note)
I took my nephew to my local game store to buy him an xbox game for his birthday the other day, I noticed 3 pre-owned copies of ESO on the XBone shelf and 4 copies on the PS4 shelf all priced at £9, it's not even a year old on console.
Other AAA games like GTA 5 which was released September 17th, 2013 are still selling pre-owned copies in that same store at £32.

I think with numbers and issues like these they really need to be embracing EVERY form of payment they can whether B2P or subscription and definitely not making current or new customers wary of their current business model.

Long winded I know lol... but well meant.

SteveCampsOut · May 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

The whole point of ESO Plus being optional per ZOS is that it doesn't require a subscription for base game updates and features (which this is listed as per ZOS' PTS patch notes) so should not the bag exist for non-subscribers but just be much better for ESO plus subscribers?

I mean let's be honest, we aren't talking about an item, we are discussing what ZOS has labelled as a base game update feature which per the Tamriel Unlimited announced "will" include base game update features.

Here's where the logic of your argument fails. Just because an item is included in this update, that does not make it a "Base Game Feature". ZOS has Labeled these bag updates as a Perk. Not a Base Game Feature. Period. End of Discussion.

Mirelurk · May 2016

Mirelurk wrote: »

Dear Lord, this thread is still going?

Dear Lord, this thread is STILL going?

JD2013 · May 2016

Sorry guys, crafting bags are coming to ESO+ people on Tuesday, like it or not.

They may increase bank/bag capacity in the future, but after 20 plus pages of going around in circles, the subject is losing all meaning.

I am sure ZOS have read this and whatever they do next is up to them.

SteveCampsOut · May 2016

Mirelurk wrote: »

Mirelurk wrote: »

Dear Lord, this thread is still going?

Dear Lord, this thread is STILL going?

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · May 2016

There's absolutely nothing wrong with it.
It's working as intended.

NewBlacksmurf · May 2016

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

The whole point of ESO Plus being optional per ZOS is that it doesn't require a subscription for base game updates and features (which this is listed as per ZOS' PTS patch notes) so should not the bag exist for non-subscribers but just be much better for ESO plus subscribers?

I mean let's be honest, we aren't talking about an item, we are discussing what ZOS has labelled as a base game update feature which per the Tamriel Unlimited announced "will" include base game update features.

Here's where the logic of your argument fails. Just because an item is included in this update, that does not make it a "Base Game Feature". ZOS has Labeled these bag updates as a Perk. Not a Base Game Feature. Period. End of Discussion.

@SteveCampsOut

It's not my logic, but what is on their site regarding the sub change and regarding PTS.
While I don't expect that you go back and read all my comments, it's in the PTS patch notes as a base game update. It's not under DLC, it's under New Features / Updates / Big Changes section.

The feature as they write it is a "crafting bag" defined as a new inventory section, account wide.

Literally everything under the new updates under the base game heading is included absent of a sub. Even so much so that if someone chooses to sub and then drop the sub, that the bag remains accessible but with only the restriction of not being able to add new items into the bag.

No where do the notes describe this crafting bag feature as a perk to ESO plus. It does say "ESO plus members will recieve access" later followed by a description of what the bag is. It's not a perk in whole, because it works without ESO plus it's just that ZOS has locked initial access behind the sub.

Literally that's what it boils down to

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · May 2016

@NewBlacksmurf Your point being?

Betheny · May 2016

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf Your point being?

His point being irrelevant.

NewBlacksmurf · May 2016

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf Your point being?

@dtm_samuraib16_ESO

"Those that don’t enroll in ESO Plus can still expect free patches that implement fixes and other improvements along with optional DLC offerings you can purchase to add more adventures to the already-enormous game." Per Jessica Folsom

Here: http://blog.us.playstation.com/2015/01/21/the-elder-scrolls-online-tamriel-unlimited-launches-june-9th/

This is literally a "patch" that implements "base game updates".
So to some lesser functionality offered to ESO plus members, the bag should be accessible outside of ESO plus. Again, not just like ESO plus members will have.

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · May 2016

Ah, but the bag is no "base game update".
It's a payed addon like a mount, with this difference that it comes by paying a monthy fee instead of once an X amount crowns.
But otherwise, it is nothing more than that: crown store item, for subbers.

NewBlacksmurf · May 2016

dtm_samuraib16_ESO wrote: »

Ah, but the bag is no "base game update".
It's a payed addon like a mount, with this difference that it comes by paying a monthy fee instead of once an X amount crowns.
But otherwise, it is nothing more than that: crown store item, for subbers.

@dtm_samuraib16_ESO
Actually it is according ZOS on the PTS patch notes.

Go see : https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/261799/pts-patch-notes-v2-4-0

dtm_samuraib16_ESO · May 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

OVERVIEWCraft Bags for ESO Plus members, and more.
[*] DLC Game Packs
Craft Bags

It's EXPLICITLY said to be for Plus Members.
NOWHERE I found a line saying Craft Bag is a BASE GAME UPDATE...

If I am mistaken (having overlooked the part), then please be so kind to quote that here.

SteveCampsOut · May 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

The whole point of ESO Plus being optional per ZOS is that it doesn't require a subscription for base game updates and features (which this is listed as per ZOS' PTS patch notes) so should not the bag exist for non-subscribers but just be much better for ESO plus subscribers?

I mean let's be honest, we aren't talking about an item, we are discussing what ZOS has labelled as a base game update feature which per the Tamriel Unlimited announced "will" include base game update features.

Here's where the logic of your argument fails. Just because an item is included in this update, that does not make it a "Base Game Feature". ZOS has Labeled these bag updates as a Perk. Not a Base Game Feature. Period. End of Discussion.

@SteveCampsOut

It's not my logic, but what is on their site regarding the sub change and regarding PTS.
While I don't expect that you go back and read all my comments, it's in the PTS patch notes as a base game update. It's not under DLC, it's under New Features / Updates / Big Changes section.

The feature as they write it is a "crafting bag" defined as a new inventory section, account wide.

Literally everything under the new updates under the base game heading is included absent of a sub. Even so much so that if someone chooses to sub and then drop the sub, that the bag remains accessible but with only the restriction of not being able to add new items into the bag.

No where do the notes describe this crafting bag feature as a perk to ESO plus. It does say "ESO plus members will recieve access" later followed by a description of what the bag is. It's not a perk in whole, because it works without ESO plus it's just that ZOS has locked initial access behind the sub.

Literally that's what it boils down to

Nope. I didn't read the whole thread because frankly, I prefer playing the game over beating dead horses. I could care less what's in the patch notes. Matt Firror has stated OVER AND OVER again that the Crafting bags would be Exclusive to ESO Plus members! Go to 15:50 mark if you don't believe me. It's been known for months that these bags would be an ESO+ Perk or Exclusive or whatever you want to call them. The Patch Notes are not some sort of contract between us and ESO that are to be treated like Gospel in any case. You can sit here and kibitz over technicalities all you want, at the end of the day. They said it would be a perk, It will be a perk and whining because you have to pay to get said perk is a waste of time and bandwidth.