Does nobody else see how wrong this is? (craft bags)

NewBlacksmurf · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Q- Which is what they're doing, you just don't like this particular opportunity.
A- we are still discussing the crafting bags right? ZOS has taken no measure to build in any other opportunities to access the crafting bag nor have they taken steps to resolve the xbox one issues with ESO Plus. Please comment on specific steps that ZOS has taken to offer the crafting bag outside of ESO Plus that I have shown to dislike?

This is the only part I'm concerned with right now. And the part you haven't answered, and that might be my fault for not being more specific.

In regards to the crafting bag, what opportunities would you provide to non-subscribing population?
How would they get it? Under what conditions?

@ShedsHisTail
You're not reading - https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3012710/#Comment_3012710

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf
By your logic, this:

"2. The introduction of the "optional" subscription model literally states "get ready to experience everything Tamriel has to offer with no restrictions!""

Means that non-subscribers should get everything with their non-subscription. All the mounts, all the toys and pets and boosts and costumes. -Everything- Tamriel has to offer. No Restrictions!

But that's insane. we aren't insane. I see no difference between and "item" and a "feature." But, if it helps sooth you, I'll petition for ZOS to make the Crafting Bag an item which takes up an inventory slot.

I can't speak to the console issue, I have no experience with that. But if there are issues there with recurring subscriptions, that's a different problem. One that won't be fixed by giving non-subscribers a crafting bag. I can see

@ShedsHisTail
No, that's not how it reads or the implication of my comment. You're taking the comment and implying your own ideas.

again, go read the article and watch that part of ESO Live where the director talks about it. its a shorter ESO Live segment.

The implication is that the base game updates and features will be accessible to all regardless of a subscription. The implication is not that everything will be available because if you continue to read, the very next idea is a breakdown of what is included in ESO Plus and what would be available in the crown store. Then the dialogue addresses additional questions around what is convenience items.

Based on those articles and segments, the crafting bag is defined as a feature and/or base game update.

NOW, the OP as well as I are saying, OK, we see the change and have no issue with the ESO Plus part but we are asking in context, WHY THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION for this feature?

Whether someone sees it as a feature, item, update or whatever, this is the first feature that was locked behind a subscription.
Subscribers and those who have purchased all DLC and some crown items are both paying customers.
No one can argue who spends more without access to bank and account records and we have no interest in removing the ESO Plus new benefit so that's of no discussion.

The discussion is along the lines of the changes, can we get another form outside of ESO Plus.

lets take for example the EXP potion [item] that requires a recipe and materials that are very rare but the exp bonus is also found in ESO plus and via crowns. Or another example is DLC which is not an item or a feature but [content] and accessible via ESO Plus or the crown store.

Can we do this one step at a time? Can we break this down, you and I?

First, how would you make it available to non-subscribers?

@ShedsHisTail

Well, if you're on PTS you understand its a feature.
The bag is not an inventory item or something you get and turn on/off

Its an interface update / feature where there is a new category added.

How would it work outside of ESO Plus.
-it works like your inventory works.

How to access it
-just like the bag vendor NPC via gold (and crowns)
-accessible via a series of quests

Functionality
-limits in slots (up-gradable to a max below the ESO PLus unlimited*)

Its pretty straight forward

wayfarerx · May 2016

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

And those of us who buy content outright should not be relegated to being second class citizens to such an extent as this, if that's how they were going to have it then they never should have had different payment methods at all, and should have stuck with Subscriptions only. If they're going to have different payment options then there should be fairness in what is received with each, and the crafting bag is just too good of a perk for it to be fair to have it exclusive.

There is fairness. You have the option to pay significantly less to play the same game.
Sorry. Lower price tag, fewer features. If you pay the same amount or more, then just subscribe. It's not rocket surgery.

We who bought content directly shouldn't have to Subscribe just to get access to something that should be available to anyone in the crown store, it undermines the entire notion of having different payment methods, and after having spent so much money buying crowns it would be a waste to just subscribe now, I wouldn't have spent crowns on the same things if I were subscribed and the crowns I did spend would be invalidated by making that change, which I refuse to do.

What you did in the past doesn't matter. This isn't a reward.

It's not entitlement to expect to get my money's worth (which is what all Subscribers have been whining about all this time), and switching to a subscription after buying so much directly is utterly wasteful and not at all worth what I've paid for it. ZOS trying to incentivize paying customers to waste our money just to get a single game-changing perk is underhanded, and I'll quit the game sooner than subscribe if ZOS values me so little as a a customer to try and do so.

You got your money's worth. Nothing you bought came with a promised reward in the fine print.
Subscribing now give you access to future content and perks, they aren't asking you to pay for you DLC a second time or applying monthly payments retroactively. You haven't wasted anything.

You're completely missing the point of course, but that's not surprising since so many people are. ZOS offering new content for Subscribers only after so many people already bought so much undermines the entire idea of different payment methods, now just to get this one perk I'd have to Subscribe and keep subscribing, which invalidates all the money I've already spent. And no that's absolutely not irrelevant, it couldn't be more relevant, and ZOS trying to incentivize people to waste their hard-earned money because they decided to change the dynamic this late in the game is entirely underhanded and shows a complete lack of respect to us as customers.

If you still can't understand that then I'm done trying to explain it to you, but you and many others are oversimplifying this issue by saying such things, there's a bigger picture you just refuse to see, and I have better things to do than trying to give sight to the blind.

Again, you are mired in the sunk cost fallacy. You gambled (by assuming that sub-free was a better fit for you) and now it appears you are losing. You can walk away from what it is you think you've lost (by getting a sub) or you can rage at the dealer that the game is rigged (i.e. posting in this thread).

Just because you bought DLC before does not mean you can never sub again, and you very likely saved money in the long run by waiting until ESO+ had a feature you wanted.

It wasn't a gamble, what's wrong with you? It was a logical assessment of the available facts, no gamble involved.

And I had more faith in ZOS than to undermine so profoundly one of the methods they offered me to pay for DLC, so yes I went with what made sense for me, it still is what makes sense for me in every way besides regarding the crafting bag, and I'm not rich enough to just waste my money by subscribing after the fact just for that one perk.

The economics of my choice are irrelevant, the point is that ZOS offered me a payment method that I prefer, allowing and encouraging me to buy their DLC's, only to then change things such that my preferred payment method is suddenly undermined. So long as ZOS offers two payment methods then they need to be balanced reasonably, and it's not reasonable to give Subscribers any perk no matter how good just so ESO+ is more worthwhile even if it screws over the rest of us.

And no it won't save me money in the long run, quite the opposite. I bought everything I want and paid a lot for it, more than if I had subscribed, because it would pay off in the long run (which hasn't had anywhere close to a chance to happen yet). If I subscribed now it would be an overt waste of at least $150, maybe more, and that's not okay for ZOS to force on me if I want this one single perk.

You might not want to call it a gamble, but that's exactly what all of us have done. I gambled that by sticking with my sub that I would get the most value. If I got into a situation where I had to cancel my sub then my gamble would not have paid off as I would lose all my DLC access. It's arguable that my gamble will only really start paying off come Tuesday since the subscriber perks have been pretty underwhelming so far.

Out of curiosity, are you going to buy Dark Brotherhood? Or the new senche mount? If you're going to keep buying crowns and spending more than $15 a month, is there a reason to avoid the sub? Besides the feeling that you lose your sunk costs (even though you do not)?

ShedsHisTail · May 2016

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Wow, really? How about the Crowns you get for free with the subscription, which I would have used to buy the other things I bought had I been Subscribed in the first place instead of buying everything with crowns. Damn you really are terrible at seeing the bigger picture, huh?

You'd come up short.
Read the math.

For now, but the longer I'm Subscribed the more crowns I'd get, and I'd have waited to buy things until I saved up enough crowns if I'd been a subscriber all along. I think it's you that needs to do the math again dude, seriously.

Read the math.

Non-Subscribing -always- ends up cheaper if subscribers choose to purchase DLC instead of just rent.
Unless ZOS stops making DLCs, this will always be the case.

Huh? You're still going on about that? You realize I'm not talking about that anymore right? It's not about the costs of one payment method versus another, it's about me being forced to waste my money after investing all-in with one payment method only to be undermined after the fact and forced to waste most of that money buying a subscription that would have (eventually) given me everything for free along with the subscription. So they're essentially forcing me to buy a whole bunch of content twice by switching payment methods now instead of just buying everything once with a single payment method, which of course is cheaper than buying the same things twice. It's really not that complicated, and like I said, it's you that needs to rethink your math.

How are you being forced to pay for it again?
If you subscribe today, you will be charged 14.99 (plus applicable tax). They won't charge you the $80.00 you already paid a second time. And you'll still own the content.

That's what I can't grasp... And I'm not too proud to say that it's beyond my grasp. I cannot fathom how subscribing today invalidates purchases you made in the past. You still played the same video game I did, but you played it at half the cost I did (taking optional purchases out of the equation).

ShedsHisTail · May 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Q- Which is what they're doing, you just don't like this particular opportunity.
A- we are still discussing the crafting bags right? ZOS has taken no measure to build in any other opportunities to access the crafting bag nor have they taken steps to resolve the xbox one issues with ESO Plus. Please comment on specific steps that ZOS has taken to offer the crafting bag outside of ESO Plus that I have shown to dislike?

This is the only part I'm concerned with right now. And the part you haven't answered, and that might be my fault for not being more specific.

In regards to the crafting bag, what opportunities would you provide to non-subscribing population?
How would they get it? Under what conditions?

@ShedsHisTail
You're not reading - https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3012710/#Comment_3012710

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf
By your logic, this:

"2. The introduction of the "optional" subscription model literally states "get ready to experience everything Tamriel has to offer with no restrictions!""

Means that non-subscribers should get everything with their non-subscription. All the mounts, all the toys and pets and boosts and costumes. -Everything- Tamriel has to offer. No Restrictions!

But that's insane. we aren't insane. I see no difference between and "item" and a "feature." But, if it helps sooth you, I'll petition for ZOS to make the Crafting Bag an item which takes up an inventory slot.

I can't speak to the console issue, I have no experience with that. But if there are issues there with recurring subscriptions, that's a different problem. One that won't be fixed by giving non-subscribers a crafting bag. I can see

@ShedsHisTail
No, that's not how it reads or the implication of my comment. You're taking the comment and implying your own ideas.

again, go read the article and watch that part of ESO Live where the director talks about it. its a shorter ESO Live segment.

The implication is that the base game updates and features will be accessible to all regardless of a subscription. The implication is not that everything will be available because if you continue to read, the very next idea is a breakdown of what is included in ESO Plus and what would be available in the crown store. Then the dialogue addresses additional questions around what is convenience items.

Based on those articles and segments, the crafting bag is defined as a feature and/or base game update.

NOW, the OP as well as I are saying, OK, we see the change and have no issue with the ESO Plus part but we are asking in context, WHY THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION for this feature?

Whether someone sees it as a feature, item, update or whatever, this is the first feature that was locked behind a subscription.
Subscribers and those who have purchased all DLC and some crown items are both paying customers.
No one can argue who spends more without access to bank and account records and we have no interest in removing the ESO Plus new benefit so that's of no discussion.

The discussion is along the lines of the changes, can we get another form outside of ESO Plus.

lets take for example the EXP potion [item] that requires a recipe and materials that are very rare but the exp bonus is also found in ESO plus and via crowns. Or another example is DLC which is not an item or a feature but [content] and accessible via ESO Plus or the crown store.

Can we do this one step at a time? Can we break this down, you and I?

First, how would you make it available to non-subscribers?

@ShedsHisTail

Well, if you're on PTS you understand its a feature.
The bag is not an inventory item or something you get and turn on/off

Its an interface update / feature where there is a new category added.

How would it work outside of ESO Plus.
-it works like your inventory works.

How to access it
-just like the bag vendor NPC via gold (and crowns)
-accessible via a series of quests

Functionality
-limits in slots (up-gradable to a max below the ESO PLus unlimited*)

Its pretty straight forward

I'm not sure how else to phrase this.

ESO+ Gets it with their subscription
How do non-subscribers get it in your model?

I'm not asking how it works. I'm asking about the means of acquisition.

Lucius_Aelius · May 2016

wayfarerx wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

wayfarerx wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

And those of us who buy content outright should not be relegated to being second class citizens to such an extent as this, if that's how they were going to have it then they never should have had different payment methods at all, and should have stuck with Subscriptions only. If they're going to have different payment options then there should be fairness in what is received with each, and the crafting bag is just too good of a perk for it to be fair to have it exclusive.

There is fairness. You have the option to pay significantly less to play the same game.
Sorry. Lower price tag, fewer features. If you pay the same amount or more, then just subscribe. It's not rocket surgery.

We who bought content directly shouldn't have to Subscribe just to get access to something that should be available to anyone in the crown store, it undermines the entire notion of having different payment methods, and after having spent so much money buying crowns it would be a waste to just subscribe now, I wouldn't have spent crowns on the same things if I were subscribed and the crowns I did spend would be invalidated by making that change, which I refuse to do.

What you did in the past doesn't matter. This isn't a reward.

It's not entitlement to expect to get my money's worth (which is what all Subscribers have been whining about all this time), and switching to a subscription after buying so much directly is utterly wasteful and not at all worth what I've paid for it. ZOS trying to incentivize paying customers to waste our money just to get a single game-changing perk is underhanded, and I'll quit the game sooner than subscribe if ZOS values me so little as a a customer to try and do so.

You got your money's worth. Nothing you bought came with a promised reward in the fine print.
Subscribing now give you access to future content and perks, they aren't asking you to pay for you DLC a second time or applying monthly payments retroactively. You haven't wasted anything.

You're completely missing the point of course, but that's not surprising since so many people are. ZOS offering new content for Subscribers only after so many people already bought so much undermines the entire idea of different payment methods, now just to get this one perk I'd have to Subscribe and keep subscribing, which invalidates all the money I've already spent. And no that's absolutely not irrelevant, it couldn't be more relevant, and ZOS trying to incentivize people to waste their hard-earned money because they decided to change the dynamic this late in the game is entirely underhanded and shows a complete lack of respect to us as customers.

If you still can't understand that then I'm done trying to explain it to you, but you and many others are oversimplifying this issue by saying such things, there's a bigger picture you just refuse to see, and I have better things to do than trying to give sight to the blind.

Again, you are mired in the sunk cost fallacy. You gambled (by assuming that sub-free was a better fit for you) and now it appears you are losing. You can walk away from what it is you think you've lost (by getting a sub) or you can rage at the dealer that the game is rigged (i.e. posting in this thread).

Just because you bought DLC before does not mean you can never sub again, and you very likely saved money in the long run by waiting until ESO+ had a feature you wanted.

It wasn't a gamble, what's wrong with you? It was a logical assessment of the available facts, no gamble involved.

And I had more faith in ZOS than to undermine so profoundly one of the methods they offered me to pay for DLC, so yes I went with what made sense for me, it still is what makes sense for me in every way besides regarding the crafting bag, and I'm not rich enough to just waste my money by subscribing after the fact just for that one perk.

The economics of my choice are irrelevant, the point is that ZOS offered me a payment method that I prefer, allowing and encouraging me to buy their DLC's, only to then change things such that my preferred payment method is suddenly undermined. So long as ZOS offers two payment methods then they need to be balanced reasonably, and it's not reasonable to give Subscribers any perk no matter how good just so ESO+ is more worthwhile even if it screws over the rest of us.

And no it won't save me money in the long run, quite the opposite. I bought everything I want and paid a lot for it, more than if I had subscribed, because it would pay off in the long run (which hasn't had anywhere close to a chance to happen yet). If I subscribed now it would be an overt waste of at least $150, maybe more, and that's not okay for ZOS to force on me if I want this one single perk.

You might not want to call it a gamble, but that's exactly what all of us have done. I gambled that by sticking with my sub that I would get the most value. If I got into a situation where I had to cancel my sub then my gamble would not have paid off as I would lose all my DLC access. It's arguable that my gamble will only really start paying off come Tuesday since the subscriber perks have been pretty underwhelming so far.

Out of curiosity, are you going to buy Dark Brotherhood? Or the new senche mount? If you're going to keep buying crowns and spending more than $15 a month, is there a reason to avoid the sub? Besides the feeling that you lose your sunk costs (even though you do not)?

Oh I'll keep playing the game and buying DLC (as long as the crafting bag is the only thing exclusive to ESO+ I have a problem with then I'll suck it up and play without it), I have everything I want at this point apart from major DLC's yet to be released, and if I only buy those moving forward (and the crafting bag from the crown store if they wise up and put it for sale like they should) then I will eventually reach a point where I'm saving money, and will have the convenience all the while of actually owning everything and not being subject to low cash flow any given month, which is by far my preference.

And like I've said to other people I expect to miss out on perks for not subscribing, but not something this game-changing. ESO+ needed something more to be worthwhile, but this goes too far.

NewBlacksmurf · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Q- Which is what they're doing, you just don't like this particular opportunity.
A- we are still discussing the crafting bags right? ZOS has taken no measure to build in any other opportunities to access the crafting bag nor have they taken steps to resolve the xbox one issues with ESO Plus. Please comment on specific steps that ZOS has taken to offer the crafting bag outside of ESO Plus that I have shown to dislike?

This is the only part I'm concerned with right now. And the part you haven't answered, and that might be my fault for not being more specific.

In regards to the crafting bag, what opportunities would you provide to non-subscribing population?
How would they get it? Under what conditions?

@ShedsHisTail
You're not reading - https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3012710/#Comment_3012710

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf
By your logic, this:

"2. The introduction of the "optional" subscription model literally states "get ready to experience everything Tamriel has to offer with no restrictions!""

Means that non-subscribers should get everything with their non-subscription. All the mounts, all the toys and pets and boosts and costumes. -Everything- Tamriel has to offer. No Restrictions!

But that's insane. we aren't insane. I see no difference between and "item" and a "feature." But, if it helps sooth you, I'll petition for ZOS to make the Crafting Bag an item which takes up an inventory slot.

I can't speak to the console issue, I have no experience with that. But if there are issues there with recurring subscriptions, that's a different problem. One that won't be fixed by giving non-subscribers a crafting bag. I can see

@ShedsHisTail
No, that's not how it reads or the implication of my comment. You're taking the comment and implying your own ideas.

again, go read the article and watch that part of ESO Live where the director talks about it. its a shorter ESO Live segment.

The implication is that the base game updates and features will be accessible to all regardless of a subscription. The implication is not that everything will be available because if you continue to read, the very next idea is a breakdown of what is included in ESO Plus and what would be available in the crown store. Then the dialogue addresses additional questions around what is convenience items.

Based on those articles and segments, the crafting bag is defined as a feature and/or base game update.

NOW, the OP as well as I are saying, OK, we see the change and have no issue with the ESO Plus part but we are asking in context, WHY THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION for this feature?

Whether someone sees it as a feature, item, update or whatever, this is the first feature that was locked behind a subscription.
Subscribers and those who have purchased all DLC and some crown items are both paying customers.
No one can argue who spends more without access to bank and account records and we have no interest in removing the ESO Plus new benefit so that's of no discussion.

The discussion is along the lines of the changes, can we get another form outside of ESO Plus.

lets take for example the EXP potion [item] that requires a recipe and materials that are very rare but the exp bonus is also found in ESO plus and via crowns. Or another example is DLC which is not an item or a feature but [content] and accessible via ESO Plus or the crown store.

Can we do this one step at a time? Can we break this down, you and I?

First, how would you make it available to non-subscribers?

@ShedsHisTail

Well, if you're on PTS you understand its a feature.
The bag is not an inventory item or something you get and turn on/off

Its an interface update / feature where there is a new category added.

How would it work outside of ESO Plus.
-it works like your inventory works.

How to access it
-just like the bag vendor NPC via gold (and crowns)
-accessible via a series of quests

Functionality
-limits in slots (up-gradable to a max below the ESO PLus unlimited*)

Its pretty straight forward

I'm not sure how else to phrase this.

ESO+ Gets it with their subscription
How do non-subscribers get it in your model?

I'm not asking how it works. I'm asking about the means of acquisition.

@ShedsHisTail
I'm not sure if there is a issue with my replies but in bold it reads above "HOW TO ACCESS IT"
just below it describes - two ways

1. just like the bag vendor NPC via gold (and crowns)
2. accessible via a series of quests

If you have not played on PTS, then a further explanation is this:
The base game patch also features an abundance of new features including poison-making as an extension of the Alchemy system, improvements to item set traits, more enhancements to the Grouping Tool, nameplates, item locking, Craft Bags for ESO Plus members, and more. And, of course, the highly anticipated removal of Veteran Ranks. We’ll be publishing a deep-dive of Veteran Rank removal on our website later next week, but in the meantime, you’ll find the top-level details in the patch notes below to get you started.

*******-The crafting bag is a "new feature" as described by ZOS staff. But notice how literally all other updates and new features are not locked behind ESO Plus. Thats the whole point we are discussing.

Craft Bags
ESO Plus members will now receive access to the Craft Bag.

(ZOS' definition) Craft Bags are an additional inventory section which does not count against your inventory limit, is shared across all characters on the account, and can hold an effectively unlimited number of all basic crafting supplies.
If your membership expires, you will still have access to the resources stored in your Craft Bag, but you will be unable to add any new materials to it.
Loot that goes to your Craft Bag has a special call out in the Loot History.
Crafting Materials from your inventory and account bank will automatically go to the Craft Bag upon login.
Items can be manually retrieved from the Craft Bag in maximum stacks of 200. Retrieved items can also be manually stowed back into the Craft Bag.

Hallothiel · May 2016

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Is this thread really still going? It's an MMO, it needs subscriptions to stay alive. Maybe this will make more people sub and we can give the hamsters running the servers a pay raise. They might even spin those wheels a little faster.

Just stop already. If you want bags, the answer is simple. Subscribe! They aren't taking anything away from you that you had previously. Not to be a jerk, but if you can't afford $15 a month, perhaps you should get a job and stop playing an MMO all the time. I say this because most casuals don't need the bag space anyways. If can afford it but chose not to for some other reason, well news flash, choices have consequences.

Actually you are being a jerk. Some may actually not be able to sub even that 'small' every month as other bills take priority. And don't make sweeping generalisations about people needing to get a job if they can't afford that. Some might save up to purchase things they would like in-game.

And nice use of the term 'casual' - sometimes I get the feeling that there are those here that seem to think that only people who play seriously on a pc and sub have a right to play the game.

Lucius_Aelius · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Wow, really? How about the Crowns you get for free with the subscription, which I would have used to buy the other things I bought had I been Subscribed in the first place instead of buying everything with crowns. Damn you really are terrible at seeing the bigger picture, huh?

You'd come up short.
Read the math.

For now, but the longer I'm Subscribed the more crowns I'd get, and I'd have waited to buy things until I saved up enough crowns if I'd been a subscriber all along. I think it's you that needs to do the math again dude, seriously.

Read the math.

Non-Subscribing -always- ends up cheaper if subscribers choose to purchase DLC instead of just rent.
Unless ZOS stops making DLCs, this will always be the case.

Huh? You're still going on about that? You realize I'm not talking about that anymore right? It's not about the costs of one payment method versus another, it's about me being forced to waste my money after investing all-in with one payment method only to be undermined after the fact and forced to waste most of that money buying a subscription that would have (eventually) given me everything for free along with the subscription. So they're essentially forcing me to buy a whole bunch of content twice by switching payment methods now instead of just buying everything once with a single payment method, which of course is cheaper than buying the same things twice. It's really not that complicated, and like I said, it's you that needs to rethink your math.

How are you being forced to pay for it again?
If you subscribe today, you will be charged 14.99 (plus applicable tax). They won't charge you the $80.00 you already paid a second time. And you'll still own the content.

That's what I can't grasp... And I'm not too proud to say that it's beyond my grasp. I cannot fathom how subscribing today invalidates purchases you made in the past. You still played the same video game I did, but you played it at half the cost I did (taking optional purchases out of the equation).

Seriously? Because I'd have gotten everything I paid for with the subscription for free, and having bought it first means I now don't get that perk from subscribing, seriously this is so painfully simple, if you really can't comprehend it then I truly pity you, but I'm done wasting my time talking to a wall.

Immortal_Dark410 · May 2016

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Was really going to ignore this thread, but it keeps getting up, it's way too juicy not to comment, but I'm doing so just because I feel the need to argue on the Internet(TM), not because of an actual necessity.

So ZOS found a way to lure people into subscribing...

Bad ZOS, greedy, they expect money for their work and to maintain server farms... bad!

I'm not a sub, I haven't spent a single cent in the crown store, hell, they even gave me the game for my birthday... I'm probably one of the worst customers they have, yet they allow me to play their game, which, I'm finding enjoyable. I'm currently unemployed, and, even when I wasn't, freelancing doesn't really give a steady income, so, subbing is not really an option for me, right now. Would I sub if I had a steady income? Probably not. I don't like the model, If I pay for stuff I want the stuff, so, I would probably just buy the crowns to buy the DLCs. Also, as far as money spending goes, I would prioritize booze and women, so....

That said, crafting bags for ESO+ only

I'm a master crafter, have all the skills maxed and plenty of herbs, woods, stones, runes... Is the lack of crafting bags/increased space making/going to make the game unplayable for me ?

Would I like to have it... sure I would.

Then, again, we're playing Hoarders Online, of course people want more space, but only subs are getting it...

I couldn't sleep, I woke up way too early for my brain to be functional, so, I started reading all 6 pages of this thread, but...

And neither should you.

Subs make it so that scum like me can still enjoy the game, despite not giving money to the company to maintain it.

You gave them 20$ for a mount ? Big deal, they need 100.000$ every month just to pay the bills for the server farms. Do you know how much electricity a server consumes ? A lot.

And energy cost money. Every month.

Occasional crown store purchases don't even come close to what you might need to maintain them. Only subs, hundreds of thousands of them, make sure the game can still exist. That's not my opinion, that's a fact.

Granted, to understand this, you should really try to manage a server for a while, like, 6 months - 1year, then have to listen to people that give you 200$ every year saying things like "I deserve more band"... priceless.

And if you're buying crowns every month, or often enough to make you comparable to a sub, well, as many others already pointed out...

No need to reiterate...

And coffee kicked in, I realized I'm spending brain resources in actually making an argument when

There, I gave my 2cents

PS - I found the game enjoyable, so, I will buy some crowns for DLCs Soon(TM), promise

BEST POST EVER!

lol agreed, Also to just point out since im sure it has been so many times & prob said to death, If you want the crafting bag feature just Sub, If you cant sub, then no crafting bag, if you dont like it & Zos doesnt change it then tough luck. Either continuing playing the game & Supporting ZOS, or Dont play and complain you quit over a crafting bag. I mean seriously its that easy everything has been explained & layed out to death. Whether we accept it or not, or like it or not, at the end of the Day ZOS is a company that needs to make $$ to survive and if they did lock the crafting bags behind a sub as some ppl put it. Then like i said earlier Sub, if you dont want too then dont complain your not gettin the feature. ZOS choose to reward the subscribers with a perk, Its like a any membership, after someone has subscribed for awhile they are rewarded. That member then gets exclusive rights & perks,Someone who isnt a member doesnt get the same perks, which clearly makes sense or else it would then defeat the purpose of a membership if members & non members got the same perks.

SteveCampsOut · May 2016

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

If you really don't understand how it's a waste for me to Subscribe after spending some $200+ on crowns just to buy things that I'd have gotten for free with a Subscription, then yes you're an idiot because that's an extraordinarily simple concept that a 5 year old could grasp with ease, I'm honestly amazed you're failing to.

See, I know you're lying already because there isn't $200.00 worth of free stuff available (unless you bought a -ton- of XP boosts, in which case... Dude.)

In the math, which you clearly didn't read, it explains that all of the DLC subscribers get to rent would cost you -about- $80.00, assuming you paid full price for all your Crowns. Anything beyond that is optional stuff you would have had to buy anyway.

Wow, really? How about the Crowns you get for free with the subscription, which I would have used to buy the other things I bought had I been Subscribed in the first place instead of buying everything with crowns. Damn you really are terrible at seeing the bigger picture, huh?

What I see is a self entitled _FILL_IN_THE_NAME_CALLING_BLANK_ whining because those of us who have been paying subscriptions for two years are finally getting some value for the money we spent and he's not getting anything extra for buying a few crowns and spending them on what he wanted. And for the fecking record! NOBODY is FORCING you to do anything. You can keep doing exactly what you have been doing and not one damn thing about your game experience has changed other than the fact that we get something you didn't because we paid for it!

ShedsHisTail · May 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Q- Which is what they're doing, you just don't like this particular opportunity.
A- we are still discussing the crafting bags right? ZOS has taken no measure to build in any other opportunities to access the crafting bag nor have they taken steps to resolve the xbox one issues with ESO Plus. Please comment on specific steps that ZOS has taken to offer the crafting bag outside of ESO Plus that I have shown to dislike?

This is the only part I'm concerned with right now. And the part you haven't answered, and that might be my fault for not being more specific.

In regards to the crafting bag, what opportunities would you provide to non-subscribing population?
How would they get it? Under what conditions?

@ShedsHisTail
You're not reading - https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3012710/#Comment_3012710

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf
By your logic, this:

"2. The introduction of the "optional" subscription model literally states "get ready to experience everything Tamriel has to offer with no restrictions!""

Means that non-subscribers should get everything with their non-subscription. All the mounts, all the toys and pets and boosts and costumes. -Everything- Tamriel has to offer. No Restrictions!

But that's insane. we aren't insane. I see no difference between and "item" and a "feature." But, if it helps sooth you, I'll petition for ZOS to make the Crafting Bag an item which takes up an inventory slot.

I can't speak to the console issue, I have no experience with that. But if there are issues there with recurring subscriptions, that's a different problem. One that won't be fixed by giving non-subscribers a crafting bag. I can see

@ShedsHisTail
No, that's not how it reads or the implication of my comment. You're taking the comment and implying your own ideas.

again, go read the article and watch that part of ESO Live where the director talks about it. its a shorter ESO Live segment.

The implication is that the base game updates and features will be accessible to all regardless of a subscription. The implication is not that everything will be available because if you continue to read, the very next idea is a breakdown of what is included in ESO Plus and what would be available in the crown store. Then the dialogue addresses additional questions around what is convenience items.

Based on those articles and segments, the crafting bag is defined as a feature and/or base game update.

NOW, the OP as well as I are saying, OK, we see the change and have no issue with the ESO Plus part but we are asking in context, WHY THERE IS NO OTHER OPTION for this feature?

Whether someone sees it as a feature, item, update or whatever, this is the first feature that was locked behind a subscription.
Subscribers and those who have purchased all DLC and some crown items are both paying customers.
No one can argue who spends more without access to bank and account records and we have no interest in removing the ESO Plus new benefit so that's of no discussion.

The discussion is along the lines of the changes, can we get another form outside of ESO Plus.

lets take for example the EXP potion [item] that requires a recipe and materials that are very rare but the exp bonus is also found in ESO plus and via crowns. Or another example is DLC which is not an item or a feature but [content] and accessible via ESO Plus or the crown store.

Can we do this one step at a time? Can we break this down, you and I?

First, how would you make it available to non-subscribers?

@ShedsHisTail

Well, if you're on PTS you understand its a feature.
The bag is not an inventory item or something you get and turn on/off

Its an interface update / feature where there is a new category added.

How would it work outside of ESO Plus.
-it works like your inventory works.

How to access it
-just like the bag vendor NPC via gold (and crowns)
-accessible via a series of quests

Functionality
-limits in slots (up-gradable to a max below the ESO PLus unlimited*)

Its pretty straight forward

I'm not sure how else to phrase this.

ESO+ Gets it with their subscription
How do non-subscribers get it in your model?

I'm not asking how it works. I'm asking about the means of acquisition.

@ShedsHisTail
I'm not sure if there is a issue with my replies but in bold it reads above "HOW TO ACCESS IT"
just below it describes - two ways

1. just like the bag vendor NPC via gold (and crowns)
2. accessible via a series of quests

If you have not played on PTS, then a further explanation is this:
The base game patch also features an abundance of new features including poison-making as an extension of the Alchemy system, improvements to item set traits, more enhancements to the Grouping Tool, nameplates, item locking, Craft Bags for ESO Plus members, and more. And, of course, the highly anticipated removal of Veteran Ranks. We’ll be publishing a deep-dive of Veteran Rank removal on our website later next week, but in the meantime, you’ll find the top-level details in the patch notes below to get you started.

*******-The crafting bag is a "new feature" as described by ZOS staff. But notice how literally all other updates and new features are not locked behind ESO Plus. Thats the whole point we are discussing.

Craft Bags
ESO Plus members will now receive access to the Craft Bag.

(ZOS' definition) Craft Bags are an additional inventory section which does not count against your inventory limit, is shared across all characters on the account, and can hold an effectively unlimited number of all basic crafting supplies.
If your membership expires, you will still have access to the resources stored in your Craft Bag, but you will be unable to add any new materials to it.
Loot that goes to your Craft Bag has a special call out in the Loot History.
Crafting Materials from your inventory and account bank will automatically go to the Craft Bag upon login.
Items can be manually retrieved from the Craft Bag in maximum stacks of 200. Retrieved items can also be manually stowed back into the Craft Bag.

Okay... Let me see if I'm understanding since I apparently missed it.

1.) You're saying to would increase the existing bonuses from ESO+. Correct?

2.) The craft bag feature would also be granted to ESO+ Members. Correct?

3.) For everyone else they would have to "unlock" the feature via some in-game quest or cost, potentially in Crowns. Correct?

Please, I'm a moron. Keep your answers confined to "yes" or "no" for each point. If "no" a short clarification will suffice. I'm losing your answers in all the extra irrelevancy you keep tacking on.

NewBlacksmurf · May 2016

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

If you really don't understand how it's a waste for me to Subscribe after spending some $200+ on crowns just to buy things that I'd have gotten for free with a Subscription, then yes you're an idiot because that's an extraordinarily simple concept that a 5 year old could grasp with ease, I'm honestly amazed you're failing to.

See, I know you're lying already because there isn't $200.00 worth of free stuff available (unless you bought a -ton- of XP boosts, in which case... Dude.)

In the math, which you clearly didn't read, it explains that all of the DLC subscribers get to rent would cost you -about- $80.00, assuming you paid full price for all your Crowns. Anything beyond that is optional stuff you would have had to buy anyway.

Wow, really? How about the Crowns you get for free with the subscription, which I would have used to buy the other things I bought had I been Subscribed in the first place instead of buying everything with crowns. Damn you really are terrible at seeing the bigger picture, huh?

What I see is a self entitled _FILL_IN_THE_NAME_CALLING_BLANK_ whining because those of us who have been paying subscriptions for two years are finally getting some value for the money we spent and he's not getting anything extra for buying a few crowns and spending them on what he wanted.

@SteveCampsOut
I'm not commenting to whatever transpired with you and the other forum member but largely there are many more of us that purely are questioning the non-subscriber options as to not take anything away from the subscriber.

Lucius_Aelius · May 2016

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

If you really don't understand how it's a waste for me to Subscribe after spending some $200+ on crowns just to buy things that I'd have gotten for free with a Subscription, then yes you're an idiot because that's an extraordinarily simple concept that a 5 year old could grasp with ease, I'm honestly amazed you're failing to.

See, I know you're lying already because there isn't $200.00 worth of free stuff available (unless you bought a -ton- of XP boosts, in which case... Dude.)

In the math, which you clearly didn't read, it explains that all of the DLC subscribers get to rent would cost you -about- $80.00, assuming you paid full price for all your Crowns. Anything beyond that is optional stuff you would have had to buy anyway.

Wow, really? How about the Crowns you get for free with the subscription, which I would have used to buy the other things I bought had I been Subscribed in the first place instead of buying everything with crowns. Damn you really are terrible at seeing the bigger picture, huh?

What I see is a self entitled _FILL_IN_THE_NAME_CALLING_BLANK_ whining because those of us who have been paying subscriptions for two years are finally getting some value for the money we spent and he's not getting anything extra for buying a few crowns and spending them on what he wanted.

Lol, I'm entitled for not wanting my hard earned money wasted, whereas you're the selfish ass who wants everything for yourself and your fellow Subscribers because you feel you deserve it more.... Lmfao, and I'M entitled!? Lmfao, that's rich, hilariously stupid but still funny as hell.

iam117 · May 2016

NewBlacksmurf · May 2016

@ShedsHisTail

Okay... Let me see if I'm understanding since I apparently missed it.

1.) You're saying to would increase the existing bonuses from ESO+. Correct?

2.) The craft bag feature would also be granted to ESO+ Members. Correct?

3.) For everyone else they would have to "unlock" the feature via some in-game quest or cost, potentially in Crowns. Correct?

Please, I'm a moron. Keep your answers confined to "yes" or "no" for each point. If "no" a short clarification will suffice. I'm losing your answers in all the extra irrelevancy you keep tacking on.

1. Yes (if you're asking me "How I would make ESO more attractive "if I were the director)
2. No, the crafting bag would be unlimited to ESO Plus members as it stands today
3. Yes

All of this in specific context to

its a feature /base game udate
The bag is not an inventory item or something you get and turn on/off

Its an interface update / feature where there is a new category added.

How would it work outside of ESO Plus.
-it works like your inventory works.

How to access it
-just like the bag vendor NPC via gold (and crowns)
-accessible via a series of quests

Functionality
-limits in slots (up-gradable to a max below the ESO PLus unlimited*)

- two ways

1. just like the bag vendor NPC via gold (and crowns)
2. accessible via a series of quests

The base game patch also features an abundance of new features including poison-making as an extension of the Alchemy system, improvements to item set traits, more enhancements to the Grouping Tool, nameplates, item locking, Craft Bags for ESO Plus members, and more. And, of course, the highly anticipated removal of Veteran Ranks. We’ll be publishing a deep-dive of Veteran Rank removal on our website later next week, but in the meantime, you’ll find the top-level details in the patch notes below to get you started.

*-The crafting bag is a "new feature" as described by ZOS staff. But notice how literally all other updates and new features are not locked behind ESO Plus. Thats the whole point we are discussing.

Craft Bags
ESO Plus members will now receive access to the Craft Bag.

(ZOS' definition) Craft Bags are an additional inventory section which does not count against your inventory limit, is shared across all characters on the account, and can hold an effectively unlimited number of all basic crafting supplies.
If your membership expires, you will still have access to the resources stored in your Craft Bag, but you will be unable to add any new materials to it.
Loot that goes to your Craft Bag has a special call out in the Loot History.
Crafting Materials from your inventory and account bank will automatically go to the Craft Bag upon login.
Items can be manually retrieved from the Craft Bag in maximum stacks of 200. Retrieved items can also be manually stowed back into the Craft Bag.

DUTCH_REAPER · May 2016

Honestly man. As a guy with 8 vets, soon to all be CR 160. I have subd since it started and was actually contemplating about to drop my sub and just buy DLC until this craft bag came. Now I will keep my sub. Having something more to attract subscribers too is needed imo. This answers that need to a lot of people. Subscription gets Crowns every month + craft bag + DLC = good package.

ShedsHisTail · May 2016

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Wow, really? How about the Crowns you get for free with the subscription, which I would have used to buy the other things I bought had I been Subscribed in the first place instead of buying everything with crowns. Damn you really are terrible at seeing the bigger picture, huh?

You'd come up short.
Read the math.

For now, but the longer I'm Subscribed the more crowns I'd get, and I'd have waited to buy things until I saved up enough crowns if I'd been a subscriber all along. I think it's you that needs to do the math again dude, seriously.

Read the math.

Non-Subscribing -always- ends up cheaper if subscribers choose to purchase DLC instead of just rent.
Unless ZOS stops making DLCs, this will always be the case.

Huh? You're still going on about that? You realize I'm not talking about that anymore right? It's not about the costs of one payment method versus another, it's about me being forced to waste my money after investing all-in with one payment method only to be undermined after the fact and forced to waste most of that money buying a subscription that would have (eventually) given me everything for free along with the subscription. So they're essentially forcing me to buy a whole bunch of content twice by switching payment methods now instead of just buying everything once with a single payment method, which of course is cheaper than buying the same things twice. It's really not that complicated, and like I said, it's you that needs to rethink your math.

How are you being forced to pay for it again?
If you subscribe today, you will be charged 14.99 (plus applicable tax). They won't charge you the $80.00 you already paid a second time. And you'll still own the content.

That's what I can't grasp... And I'm not too proud to say that it's beyond my grasp. I cannot fathom how subscribing today invalidates purchases you made in the past. You still played the same video game I did, but you played it at half the cost I did (taking optional purchases out of the equation).

Seriously? Because I'd have gotten everything I paid for with the subscription for free, and having bought it first means I now don't get that perk from subscribing, seriously this is so painfully simple, if you really can't comprehend it then I truly pity you, but I'm done wasting my time talking to a wall.

Yes, you would have RENTED everything, but you'd have paid more for it.
Subbing now doesn't change that you paid less then, nor does it invalidate anything. You still own all those things. If you sub, get the bag, and then unsub, you still get to keep all those things. Subscribers can't do that unless they also spent the crowns they got with their sub on buying the DLC anyway.

That's what you paid for and that's what can't be invalidated. You paid for the freedom to unsubscribe at a whim and lose nothing. You OWN what you paid for, Subscribers don't unless they spent Crowns on it.

Yes, if you subscribe now for the bag you will be leashed to a subscription in order to keep using it, that's true. But none of your old purchases will be affected or invalidated.

SteveCampsOut · May 2016

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

If you really don't understand how it's a waste for me to Subscribe after spending some $200+ on crowns just to buy things that I'd have gotten for free with a Subscription, then yes you're an idiot because that's an extraordinarily simple concept that a 5 year old could grasp with ease, I'm honestly amazed you're failing to.

See, I know you're lying already because there isn't $200.00 worth of free stuff available (unless you bought a -ton- of XP boosts, in which case... Dude.)

In the math, which you clearly didn't read, it explains that all of the DLC subscribers get to rent would cost you -about- $80.00, assuming you paid full price for all your Crowns. Anything beyond that is optional stuff you would have had to buy anyway.

Wow, really? How about the Crowns you get for free with the subscription, which I would have used to buy the other things I bought had I been Subscribed in the first place instead of buying everything with crowns. Damn you really are terrible at seeing the bigger picture, huh?

What I see is a self entitled _FILL_IN_THE_NAME_CALLING_BLANK_ whining because those of us who have been paying subscriptions for two years are finally getting some value for the money we spent and he's not getting anything extra for buying a few crowns and spending them on what he wanted.

Lol, I'm entitled for not wanting my hard earned money wasted, whereas you're the selfish ass who wants everything for yourself and your fellow Subscribers because you feel you deserve it more.... Lmfao, and I'M entitled!? Lmfao, that's rich, hilariously stupid but still funny as hell.

You got what you paid for. You're the one we're all laughing at. We paid more. Of course we fecking deserve more. Such a silly reply!

Lucius_Aelius · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Wow, really? How about the Crowns you get for free with the subscription, which I would have used to buy the other things I bought had I been Subscribed in the first place instead of buying everything with crowns. Damn you really are terrible at seeing the bigger picture, huh?

You'd come up short.
Read the math.

For now, but the longer I'm Subscribed the more crowns I'd get, and I'd have waited to buy things until I saved up enough crowns if I'd been a subscriber all along. I think it's you that needs to do the math again dude, seriously.

Read the math.

Non-Subscribing -always- ends up cheaper if subscribers choose to purchase DLC instead of just rent.
Unless ZOS stops making DLCs, this will always be the case.

Huh? You're still going on about that? You realize I'm not talking about that anymore right? It's not about the costs of one payment method versus another, it's about me being forced to waste my money after investing all-in with one payment method only to be undermined after the fact and forced to waste most of that money buying a subscription that would have (eventually) given me everything for free along with the subscription. So they're essentially forcing me to buy a whole bunch of content twice by switching payment methods now instead of just buying everything once with a single payment method, which of course is cheaper than buying the same things twice. It's really not that complicated, and like I said, it's you that needs to rethink your math.

How are you being forced to pay for it again?
If you subscribe today, you will be charged 14.99 (plus applicable tax). They won't charge you the $80.00 you already paid a second time. And you'll still own the content.

That's what I can't grasp... And I'm not too proud to say that it's beyond my grasp. I cannot fathom how subscribing today invalidates purchases you made in the past. You still played the same video game I did, but you played it at half the cost I did (taking optional purchases out of the equation).

Seriously? Because I'd have gotten everything I paid for with the subscription for free, and having bought it first means I now don't get that perk from subscribing, seriously this is so painfully simple, if you really can't comprehend it then I truly pity you, but I'm done wasting my time talking to a wall.

Yes, you would have RENTED everything, but you'd have paid more for it.
Subbing now doesn't change that you paid less then, nor does it invalidate anything. You still own all those things. If you sub, get the bag, and then unsub, you still get to keep all those things. Subscribers can't do that unless they also spent the crowns they got with their sub on buying the DLC anyway.

That's what you paid for and that's what can't be invalidated. You paid for the freedom to unsubscribe at a whim and lose nothing. You OWN what you paid for, Subscribers don't unless they spent Crowns on it.

Yes, if you subscribe now for the bag you will be leashed to a subscription in order to keep using it, that's true. But none of your old purchases will be affected or invalidated.

Again, missing the point, try reevaluating and posting something relevant if you want me to spend time on a meaningful response, I'm done repeating myself.

ShedsHisTail · May 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

@ShedsHisTail

Okay... Let me see if I'm understanding since I apparently missed it.

1.) You're saying to would increase the existing bonuses from ESO+. Correct?

2.) The craft bag feature would also be granted to ESO+ Members. Correct?

3.) For everyone else they would have to "unlock" the feature via some in-game quest or cost, potentially in Crowns. Correct?

Please, I'm a moron. Keep your answers confined to "yes" or "no" for each point. If "no" a short clarification will suffice. I'm losing your answers in all the extra irrelevancy you keep tacking on.

1. Yes (if you're asking me "How I would make ESO more attractive "if I were the director)
2. No, the crafting bag would be unlimited to ESO Plus members as it stands today
3. Yes

All of this in specific context to

its a feature /base game udate
The bag is not an inventory item or something you get and turn on/off

Its an interface update / feature where there is a new category added.

How would it work outside of ESO Plus.
-it works like your inventory works.

How to access it
-just like the bag vendor NPC via gold (and crowns)
-accessible via a series of quests

Functionality
-limits in slots (up-gradable to a max below the ESO PLus unlimited*)

- two ways

1. just like the bag vendor NPC via gold (and crowns)
2. accessible via a series of quests

The base game patch also features an abundance of new features including poison-making as an extension of the Alchemy system, improvements to item set traits, more enhancements to the Grouping Tool, nameplates, item locking, Craft Bags for ESO Plus members, and more. And, of course, the highly anticipated removal of Veteran Ranks. We’ll be publishing a deep-dive of Veteran Rank removal on our website later next week, but in the meantime, you’ll find the top-level details in the patch notes below to get you started.

*-The crafting bag is a "new feature" as described by ZOS staff. But notice how literally all other updates and new features are not locked behind ESO Plus. Thats the whole point we are discussing.

Craft Bags
ESO Plus members will now receive access to the Craft Bag.

(ZOS' definition) Craft Bags are an additional inventory section which does not count against your inventory limit, is shared across all characters on the account, and can hold an effectively unlimited number of all basic crafting supplies.
If your membership expires, you will still have access to the resources stored in your Craft Bag, but you will be unable to add any new materials to it.
Loot that goes to your Craft Bag has a special call out in the Loot History.
Crafting Materials from your inventory and account bank will automatically go to the Craft Bag upon login.
Items can be manually retrieved from the Craft Bag in maximum stacks of 200. Retrieved items can also be manually stowed back into the Craft Bag.

Okay, so you're saying in your model, no one gets the exclusive bag. Everyone has to go through the same channels to acquire it; that being in-game questing and/or Crown store purchases. Regardless of whether they are subbed or not.

Immortal_Dark410 · May 2016

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

If you really don't understand how it's a waste for me to Subscribe after spending some $200+ on crowns just to buy things that I'd have gotten for free with a Subscription, then yes you're an idiot because that's an extraordinarily simple concept that a 5 year old could grasp with ease, I'm honestly amazed you're failing to.

See, I know you're lying already because there isn't $200.00 worth of free stuff available (unless you bought a -ton- of XP boosts, in which case... Dude.)

In the math, which you clearly didn't read, it explains that all of the DLC subscribers get to rent would cost you -about- $80.00, assuming you paid full price for all your Crowns. Anything beyond that is optional stuff you would have had to buy anyway.

Wow, really? How about the Crowns you get for free with the subscription, which I would have used to buy the other things I bought had I been Subscribed in the first place instead of buying everything with crowns. Damn you really are terrible at seeing the bigger picture, huh?

What I see is a self entitled _FILL_IN_THE_NAME_CALLING_BLANK_ whining because those of us who have been paying subscriptions for two years are finally getting some value for the money we spent and he's not getting anything extra for buying a few crowns and spending them on what he wanted.

Lol, I'm entitled for not wanting my hard earned money wasted, whereas you're the selfish ass who wants everything for yourself and your fellow Subscribers because you feel you deserve it more.... Lmfao, and I'M entitled!? Lmfao, that's rich, hilariously stupid but still funny as hell.

You got what you paid for. You're the one we're all laughing at. We paid more. Of course we fecking deserve more. Such a silly reply!

@SteveCampsOut tbh i was laughing at the reply lol

Tommy1979AtWar · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I can't speak to the console issue, I have no experience with that. But if there are issues there with recurring subscriptions, that's a different problem. One that won't be fixed by giving non-subscribers a crafting bag. I can see

I'm curious about this... while I agree that a crafting bag won't fix that particular issue but also having watched people whine for a year "waaa my sub isn't worth it" "waaa my crowns haven't arrived" "waaa customer service sucks" "waaaa all we get is extra gold and 10% crafting bonus" "waaa I could buy 1500 crowns cheaper in a sale" "waaa paying a sub sucks" "waaa I'm cancelling because zos sucks" etc etc

I have to admit that most seem like relevant reasons to me but a very good reason which is not a "different problem" at all is the issue of customers not receiving the entire item they've purchased through subscribing.

I'm sure it's most likely influenced many peoples decision in choosing the B2P model on console (even more so in the early days of console release), so I'm wondering why you believe they would sub now or indeed if they should have either back then or now if they weren't or aren't getting the full benefit of the subscription?

ShedsHisTail · May 2016

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

Wow, really? How about the Crowns you get for free with the subscription, which I would have used to buy the other things I bought had I been Subscribed in the first place instead of buying everything with crowns. Damn you really are terrible at seeing the bigger picture, huh?

You'd come up short.
Read the math.

For now, but the longer I'm Subscribed the more crowns I'd get, and I'd have waited to buy things until I saved up enough crowns if I'd been a subscriber all along. I think it's you that needs to do the math again dude, seriously.

Read the math.

Non-Subscribing -always- ends up cheaper if subscribers choose to purchase DLC instead of just rent.
Unless ZOS stops making DLCs, this will always be the case.

Huh? You're still going on about that? You realize I'm not talking about that anymore right? It's not about the costs of one payment method versus another, it's about me being forced to waste my money after investing all-in with one payment method only to be undermined after the fact and forced to waste most of that money buying a subscription that would have (eventually) given me everything for free along with the subscription. So they're essentially forcing me to buy a whole bunch of content twice by switching payment methods now instead of just buying everything once with a single payment method, which of course is cheaper than buying the same things twice. It's really not that complicated, and like I said, it's you that needs to rethink your math.

How are you being forced to pay for it again?
If you subscribe today, you will be charged 14.99 (plus applicable tax). They won't charge you the $80.00 you already paid a second time. And you'll still own the content.

That's what I can't grasp... And I'm not too proud to say that it's beyond my grasp. I cannot fathom how subscribing today invalidates purchases you made in the past. You still played the same video game I did, but you played it at half the cost I did (taking optional purchases out of the equation).

Seriously? Because I'd have gotten everything I paid for with the subscription for free, and having bought it first means I now don't get that perk from subscribing, seriously this is so painfully simple, if you really can't comprehend it then I truly pity you, but I'm done wasting my time talking to a wall.

Yes, you would have RENTED everything, but you'd have paid more for it.
Subbing now doesn't change that you paid less then, nor does it invalidate anything. You still own all those things. If you sub, get the bag, and then unsub, you still get to keep all those things. Subscribers can't do that unless they also spent the crowns they got with their sub on buying the DLC anyway.

That's what you paid for and that's what can't be invalidated. You paid for the freedom to unsubscribe at a whim and lose nothing. You OWN what you paid for, Subscribers don't unless they spent Crowns on it.

Yes, if you subscribe now for the bag you will be leashed to a subscription in order to keep using it, that's true. But none of your old purchases will be affected or invalidated.

Again, missing the point, try reevaluating and posting something relevant if you want me to spend time on a meaningful response, I'm done repeating myself.

Couldn't agree more.
I think you and I are done here.

SteveCampsOut · May 2016

Immortal_Dark410 wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

If you really don't understand how it's a waste for me to Subscribe after spending some $200+ on crowns just to buy things that I'd have gotten for free with a Subscription, then yes you're an idiot because that's an extraordinarily simple concept that a 5 year old could grasp with ease, I'm honestly amazed you're failing to.

See, I know you're lying already because there isn't $200.00 worth of free stuff available (unless you bought a -ton- of XP boosts, in which case... Dude.)

In the math, which you clearly didn't read, it explains that all of the DLC subscribers get to rent would cost you -about- $80.00, assuming you paid full price for all your Crowns. Anything beyond that is optional stuff you would have had to buy anyway.

Wow, really? How about the Crowns you get for free with the subscription, which I would have used to buy the other things I bought had I been Subscribed in the first place instead of buying everything with crowns. Damn you really are terrible at seeing the bigger picture, huh?

What I see is a self entitled _FILL_IN_THE_NAME_CALLING_BLANK_ whining because those of us who have been paying subscriptions for two years are finally getting some value for the money we spent and he's not getting anything extra for buying a few crowns and spending them on what he wanted.

Lol, I'm entitled for not wanting my hard earned money wasted, whereas you're the selfish ass who wants everything for yourself and your fellow Subscribers because you feel you deserve it more.... Lmfao, and I'M entitled!? Lmfao, that's rich, hilariously stupid but still funny as hell.

You got what you paid for. You're the one we're all laughing at. We paid more. Of course we fecking deserve more. Such a silly reply!

@SteveCampsOut tbh i was laughing at the reply lol

Yes, I think The Farce is strong in that one.

FortheloveofKrist · May 2016

Can someone answer: Will you have access to the crafting bag out in the field? Or only at a bank?

@FortheloveofKrist

Lucius_Aelius · May 2016

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Lucius_Aelius wrote: »

If you really don't understand how it's a waste for me to Subscribe after spending some $200+ on crowns just to buy things that I'd have gotten for free with a Subscription, then yes you're an idiot because that's an extraordinarily simple concept that a 5 year old could grasp with ease, I'm honestly amazed you're failing to.

See, I know you're lying already because there isn't $200.00 worth of free stuff available (unless you bought a -ton- of XP boosts, in which case... Dude.)

In the math, which you clearly didn't read, it explains that all of the DLC subscribers get to rent would cost you -about- $80.00, assuming you paid full price for all your Crowns. Anything beyond that is optional stuff you would have had to buy anyway.

Wow, really? How about the Crowns you get for free with the subscription, which I would have used to buy the other things I bought had I been Subscribed in the first place instead of buying everything with crowns. Damn you really are terrible at seeing the bigger picture, huh?

What I see is a self entitled _FILL_IN_THE_NAME_CALLING_BLANK_ whining because those of us who have been paying subscriptions for two years are finally getting some value for the money we spent and he's not getting anything extra for buying a few crowns and spending them on what he wanted.

Lol, I'm entitled for not wanting my hard earned money wasted, whereas you're the selfish ass who wants everything for yourself and your fellow Subscribers because you feel you deserve it more.... Lmfao, and I'M entitled!? Lmfao, that's rich, hilariously stupid but still funny as hell.

You got what you paid for. You're the one we're all laughing at. We paid more. Of course we fecking deserve more. Such a silly reply!

Deserve more yes, I've said repeatedly that I agree with that, but the crafting bag is way too good and game-changing for it to be fair as an exclusive. Just because ESO+ deserves more doesn't mean you're entitled to anything and everything you want more than the rest of us, and the fact that you can't see your own hypocrisy is absolutely priceless. I couldn't care less if you're laughing at me because it's the laugh of a simple mind.

iam117 · May 2016

you mean subs have paid more and gotten less? WAY LESS!?!?!?!?! SAME MONEY?!?!?

giphy%201_zpse06nfwgx.gif

ShedsHisTail · May 2016

Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I can't speak to the console issue, I have no experience with that. But if there are issues there with recurring subscriptions, that's a different problem. One that won't be fixed by giving non-subscribers a crafting bag. I can see

I'm curious about this... while I agree that a crafting bag won't fix that particular issue but also having watched people whine for a year "waaa my sub isn't worth it" "waaa my crowns haven't arrived" "waaa customer service sucks" "waaaa all we get is extra gold and 10% crafting bonus" "waaa I could buy 1500 crowns cheaper in a sale" "waaa paying a sub sucks" "waaa I'm cancelling because zos sucks" etc etc

I have to admit that most seem like relevant reasons to me but a very good reason which is not a "different problem" at all is the issue of customers not receiving the entire item they've purchased through subscribing.

I'm sure it's most likely influenced many peoples decision in choosing the B2P model on console (even more so in the early days of console release), so I'm wondering why you believe they would sub now or indeed if they should have either back then or now if they weren't or aren't getting the full benefit of the subscription?

That's why I'm not addressing it. I don't know the details of the problem, I can't speak to it with any frame of reference. If it's a legitimately large problem that ZOS can't fix, then, yeah, maybe they need to re-evaluate their subscription model and benefits for consoles. I dunno.

Immortal_Dark410 · May 2016

FortheloveofKrist wrote: »

Can someone answer: Will you have access to the crafting bag out in the field? Or only at a bank?

@FortheloveofKrist

from what i heard its like a tab in your inventory so you should have access to it

liv3mind wrote: »

you mean subs have paid more and gotten less? WAY LESS!?!?!?!?! SAME MONEY?!?!?

LoL!

Tommy1979AtWar · May 2016

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »

ShedsHisTail wrote: »

I can't speak to the console issue, I have no experience with that. But if there are issues there with recurring subscriptions, that's a different problem. One that won't be fixed by giving non-subscribers a crafting bag. I can see

I'm curious about this... while I agree that a crafting bag won't fix that particular issue but also having watched people whine for a year "waaa my sub isn't worth it" "waaa my crowns haven't arrived" "waaa customer service sucks" "waaaa all we get is extra gold and 10% crafting bonus" "waaa I could buy 1500 crowns cheaper in a sale" "waaa paying a sub sucks" "waaa I'm cancelling because zos sucks" etc etc

I have to admit that most seem like relevant reasons to me but a very good reason which is not a "different problem" at all is the issue of customers not receiving the entire item they've purchased through subscribing.

I'm sure it's most likely influenced many peoples decision in choosing the B2P model on console (even more so in the early days of console release), so I'm wondering why you believe they would sub now or indeed if they should have either back then or now if they weren't or aren't getting the full benefit of the subscription?

That's why I'm not addressing it. I don't know the details of the problem, I can't speak to it with any frame of reference. If it's a legitimately large problem that ZOS can't fix, then, yeah, maybe they need to re-evaluate their subscription model and benefits for consoles. I dunno.

Cool, I mean I just thought you may have an opinion on whether good idea or not etc if you'd hypothetically been in the same situation but if you don't other than what you've stated then cool no problem.